Cherisse & Odie: Through PTSD and Panic Attacks

John Ramer  0:01  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Lori Cohen  0:04  
and I'm Laurie Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada,

Chelsey Marino  0:08  
and I'm Chelsea Marino from Keeper and Kin in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab.

Lori Cohen  0:18  
Hi, everybody! Welcome back to Dogs Beyond the Lab. Today we are chatting with Charisse, who has a plethora of dogs. However, we're going to focus on Odie mostly today. So welcome, Sharice. Thank you for being here. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Absolutely, Charisse. Let's talk, if you don't mind about Odie, of course, but interestingly enough, Odie was not-you were not going to adopt Odie in the beginning.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  0:51  
We were not. We wanted to just foster. Like I was open to having revolving doors of beagles coming through just to kind of decompress, and you know maybe learn to dog from my dogs, but it was never our intention to adopt Odie.

Lori Cohen  1:10  
And the funny thing about that is that you actually made a point of emailing or texting. I can't remember what because we do text pretty often, but you made a point of getting in contact and making your intentions clear, you were very clear about it. This is what James and I want to do. We want to help the Beagle Alliance. We want to foster only, and so let us know. And of course, that's where you know you picked up Odie, and tell us a little bit about that and and how that started out the beginning stages of life with Odie,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  1:46  
september 26, 2023.

Lori Cohen  1:50  
You remember the date?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  1:51  
I remember the date because it was three days after his listed birthday.

Lori Cohen  1:57  
Okay, okay.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  1:58  
He was released with two other dogs, or at least he was brought to Manitoba with two right, yeah, came out to your place, and you let these three dogs out. And the first thing Odie did was he went to your pond area. He wanted nothing to do with the people, and every time somebody would come close, he'd he'd dodge, he'd try to hide, and I let the other two dogs with their people go first, just so I was trying to you know limit the amount of stimulation around him, and he was quiet the entire ride. We live about 45 minutes apart, almost an hour apart, and I was impressed with how quiet he was on his drive. And we brought him home, and the first thing he wanted to do again was hide. He was-he didn't want to be around us. He didn't. Everything was scary at the time. I had three other dogs. Yes, that's right. And Titan was our grandpa. He was 1516, so he was elderly already. And but these were too many dogs, too many people. So he just we let him go upstairs because that's it's quiet up there. There's not a lot of activity, and the first night was interesting because he paced all night. He could not settle. Like it was new, it was weird. It was there were strange people. When's that other shoe gonna drop? So he paced the whole night. The second night, I actually went into our guest bedroom, and I took him into the bed with me, and I like snuggled him the whole night, and ever since then, he has slept through the night.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  4:00  
I don't know how I did that. Don't know if I did the right thing or not, but it really seemed to work with him.

Lori Cohen  4:05  
Tell us a little bit, though, because Odie was no easy journey. Did you know he wasn't easy going into it? Did you have an understanding that it might not be simple?

Chelsey Marino  4:17  
Laurie told me that these three dogs were three of the most traumatized she has seen, and then she told me that he was the most traumatized out of the bunch. I'm like, I don't know what I did to Lori, but I know what

Lori Cohen  4:32  
I need.

Lori Cohen  4:32  
You know what? Actually, take it as a compliment. It is a compliment. It's a compliment. Lori does not give dogs to to people. You know she's she's great at that. So if you get a tough dog, it says something about what she thinks about you.

Lori Cohen  4:46  
I agree, and thank you, Chelsea, because it's true. I knew that I knew Sharice knew what she was doing and had the patience, and and so did James, and I knew that.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  4:56  
Yeah, he and Daisy, my female. Started out with a lot of squabbles, and it was alarming to me because you know how dogs fight. There's a lot of noise, and these weren't the fun, playful what we call bitey face games, where there's a lot of teeth flying but nobody's actually going at each other. There was blood being drawn, and I would call up Laurie, and I'd be like, "Lori, I can't do this. This is-he's fighting with Daisy. And looking back on it now, I realize that Daisy was trying to mom him. She was treating him like she would a puppy, and he was not. He didn't have the skills that a normal puppy would have to say, "Oh, okay, I got to back off. He would come back with that same energy, and somehow after we were, Laurie set us up with a gentleman from California, and somehow he didn't give a lot of direction, but the little bit he did give was enough that they calmed down. We still have a few days where they're like, "Days, no, get out of my space. I'm done with you, or when James gets up to go into a different room, Odie still gets startled and wants to run and teasingly yell at him, and it's hilarious to watch now that I see what's going on, because it's like she's like telling him, Odie, you need to settle down, you are getting out of hand.

Lori Cohen  6:43  
It's funny, Charisse, because not funny, of course, but obviously, if there's a fight going on, you know, the first thing we say is, "Do you want us to pull the dog? Obviously, and but you were determined, and it's true, things did improve quicker than we thought, actually. But you were determined, and there was something to that. You you were like, no, I'm going to help this dog no matter what, even if I have to separate, if I have to adjust our lives. And you know, he gave you a run for your money.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  7:18  
He did, but I wouldn't trade him for the world now.

John Ramer  7:23  
It sounds like the timeline on this is what Laurie refers to as BC, which is before Chelsea.

Lori Cohen  7:30  
Exactly. Charisse and I like our biblical references, so she will be right in there with BC. Yeah, first time I heard you you say that, I'm like, uh huh. I I

Cherisse Friesen Epp  7:44  
hear you. Sorry, that's funny. It

Lori Cohen  7:46  
was a dark time, guys. It was a dark time.

Lori Cohen  7:52  
Sharise, how did you feel? Because you're expecting this very traumatized, very shut down dog to come into your world, and now all of a sudden you have a dog who's fighting with your other dog, right? And now, like this, this fear, if you will, that he's feeling is coming out in fear or in anger. I'm sorry. So, how did you feel then, thinking one thing? You know, you're going to get a tough dog. He's going to be shut down, and now you have a tough dog, and he's fighting with your other dog.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  8:21  
I was very worried because before I started fostering with Lori or working with Laurie, I was working with the Manitoba Basset Rescue as their beagle lit person, and we had one come through who, unfortunately, his behavioral issues would have required specialized attention because he was a biter and he would bite without warning. He had no tells; they had been trained out of him, and I didn't want another situation like that because I know how that dog story ended, and I didn't want that for Odie.

Lori Cohen  9:04  
So you almost had a little PTSD because of that.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  9:08  
Yeah, I didn't want to fail another dog.

Chelsey Marino  9:10  
Yeah, well, it's not failing, but I understand what you're saying.

Lori Cohen  9:14  
There, there was a lot of PTSD to go around in in this particular. So talk about Charisse, if you don't mind, and I do want to say that this was a this was this is also an interesting before story as well because this dog this was a collaboration between the Beagle Alliance and Kindness Ranch before we were allowed to say that this was a collaboration between Kindness Ranch and the Beagle Alliance, so this was a lot of before, which just really makes me happy because it shows how long that we've been working together and and how many dogs that we've collaborated in and seen gone into amazing homes. But again, there is some destiny here, Charisse. There's some. Odie chose us sort of narrative here because we had two adopters that didn't work out for reasons that had nothing to do with Odie, and then of course there's the James piece because that wasn't going well either. So chat about that. Chat about we

Cherisse Friesen Epp  10:19  
finally said we would adopt him in March, but those almost six months were rough because James had PTSD from a accident that he had in South Dakota. He drives truck. It was terrible. Passenger vehicle versus highway tractor is never a good scene. When his brain was having flashbacks or was messing with him, Odie picked up on it, and the two of them would feed off of each other. And I actually had to go to my vet and ask for what ended up being the beagle version of Prozac to at least get Odie's brain to understand what normal-ish should look like, but there was a point where James he says that he, I was holding Odie, and just the way that Odie would put his head on my shoulder, like that was the safest place in the world for him at that point. He said, "I can't let this dog go somewhere else because it took him this long to trust you. So I'm going to keep working with him. I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep working on myself. I'm going to keep working with him. We're going to learn to at least exist together.

John Ramer  11:54  
You know, there's a unique thing that these dogs bring out in people that have served and have PTSD, one of the greatest stories that I personally have with a guy that had PTSD and adopted one of our dogs is he he had done 18 years in the Marines, and him and his wife came out. They stayed in one of our guest yards, and his wife absolutely fell in love with this dog named Archer. And Archer didn't want anything to do with the husband, and the husband had such severe PTSD that when he was having an episode, he couldn't even get out of their car if there were people around. He had to wait for the parking lot to clear before he could get out of the car and go into the yurt and spend time with his wife and dog. I offered him a couple extra nights on the property to adjust and see if the dog would come around. And the morning that they were getting ready to leave, all of the staff were coming in to work. It was about 830, quarter to nine in the morning. There's all kinds of activity, and Lori and Chelsea know what our canine corral is. It's a big one-acre fenced-in safe area for the dogs to run and play, and this gentleman was sitting out in the canine corral with the dog, with all of the people around, and nobody had seen him even out of the car up to this point. And he was sitting out there trying to get the dog to come over and take treats out of his hand, his wife was standing outside of the corral, and I asked her how things were going, and I was still just in absolute shock and awe. And she said, "This is the marine in him. He feels like he's on a mission, and he will not fail. And we've got pictures of him hiking in the Rocky Mountains with Archer now, and he succeeded, and he he felt like the dog gave him a rejuvenated purpose.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  14:13  
That is fantastic.

John Ramer  14:15  
They can heal us for sure.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  14:16  
Uh huh. James has spent a lot of time sharing bits of food off of his plate, like he does the whole pretending to sneak it to Odie, pretending like little thing. And now we're at a point where when we sit down to eat, because we sit on the couch, we're we're not table people. Odie will actually go. He'll do a full sploot with his head on James's leg, and he will wait for James to share with him.

John Ramer  14:49  
Amazing!

Lori Cohen  14:50  
I say beagles are the best salesmen in the world. They they will sell you.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  14:55  
They they will talk you into anything. Yeah, absolutely.

Chelsey Marino  14:58  
Certainly

Lori Cohen  14:59  
will. It's those. Balls

Lori Cohen  15:00  
and the persistence.

Lori Cohen  15:02  
Yes, yes.

Lori Cohen  15:03  
They don't take no for an answer. Very never,

Lori Cohen  15:05  
never, and never.

Lori Cohen  15:06  
Sharice, how for you? You have a unique role in this because you know we talk to people a lot who are caretakers for dogs. That's their former dogs. A lot of people adopt research beagles after their other dogs have passed, and they have been through caretaking for those dogs who are ill. And in a way, you're not a physical caretaker, but you are a caretaker of two individuals in your household who now have PTSD, and I'm sure they have similarities in some way and differences in some way, and I would imagine that's a lot to carry every day. So you know, how do you balance that and giving them both what they need while helping them both kind of heal themselves and each other, and then taking care of yourself as well?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  15:59  
I'll give you an example. Yesterday, James was waiting for a load, and waiting for him is a bit of a trigger. He struggles with the unknown. I was upstairs trying to work because three days a week I work from home, and Odie is downstairs barking. We call it barking. His vocal cords were cut. It's not much of a bark. He gets his point across. His barking was setting James off, and so James was setting off more barking. So I gave Odie some CBD because that's usually what we enough to help him settle. But I also had to come down and talk to James and say, "Okay, so where are you at? What's going on in your brain? How are you doing? And it gives him a chance to talk through what's going on in his head. And then, if he needs to take his CBD, because that does help him, and then I just reminded him that sometimes Odie just wants you to come outside. He doesn't need you to interact. He just wants a body outside that he feels a little safer. And James could use the sunshine. Let's be real. After that, everybody just kind of settled settled down a bit because there was that chance to talk through some things to the point where his brain could go, "Okay, I got it. I got a handle on this now. Is

Lori Cohen  17:34  
this exhausting for you, Charisse? On some days,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  17:38  
some days it is. You know, I have ADHD, and so sometimes it's already hard for me to focus. But then I've got these shenanigans going on elsewhere in the house, and so my attention is now partly on that as well, as what makes work a little bit harder. I mean, I love all of them. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be mad at any of them in the long run. Just in that moment, like you all just need to go outside.

Lori Cohen  18:09  
How far has Odie come, Charisse, from the from the beginning?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  18:14  
Our first walk with Odie was done with him in a in a doggy stroller, so he knew he could get a sense of what the dogs were doing out on these walks, but people couldn't see him. Now, the kids in the neighborhood all want to pet the dogs because beagles are such kid-friendly dogs. We have a guy who does our yard, and so we see him around town frequently, and Odie loves him. Like he's now at the point where he's willing to at least greet people and say, "Hey, how's it going? And then while these people are petting Daisy and Copper, who are a bit more outgoing, Odie's just chilling, sniffing around. He's not trying to run away anymore, which is huge. It is. I'm so proud of him.

John Ramer  19:07  
What are your current challenges that you're trying to work through?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  19:11  
I'm trying to get him to the next step, where you know maybe James can stand up, and we're not, yes, freaking out all over the place, because James gets to do stuff in the house too. He can't just sit on the couch.

Lori Cohen  19:30  
So that is still happening, Sharice. That is still. So we're three years later. This is very, you know, this is something to take note of. That everyone's an individual, and and even when they make a few steps forward, there's there's always something you're working on. Really,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  19:47  
he still gets nervous when James stands up, and I always tell James it's because the first week that he was here, he wiped out on a spot where Odie peed on the floor. And James is not a small man. He hit the ground pretty hard. He made a lot of noise when he fell. I still think it's hilarious, but James doesn't think it's quite so funny.

Lori Cohen  20:12  
Let me dive into this a little bit here because I think a lot of people have a similar issue like this. So let me start by saying, does does the same reaction happen from Odie, like if you stand up or one of the other dogs get up and move around, just James,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  20:25  
just James. James is some sort of special.

Lori Cohen  20:27  
And does he like when he gets up and he starts barking, or he just startles or runs away?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  20:32  
He runs away, and then he'll walk a few feet behind James, barking at him.

Lori Cohen  20:40  
And is there anything that you guys have done or seen that would get him to stop doing that? Like, is it X amount of time, or if James turns around and acknowledges him, or is there nothing that seems to work?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  20:56  
Honestly, when Copper starts humping him,

Lori Cohen  21:00  
Okay, and then he he just gets no. It's it makes sense to me, and I'll explain it. But he gets he's like get off of me or whatever, right? Okay, so he's redirected then. Essentially, his brain's taken another.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  21:15  
Odie doesn't care that Copper is doing this. He just stands there,

Lori Cohen  21:20  
and but that will get him to stop.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  21:22  
Yeah, he'll stop barking at Jane's.

Lori Cohen  21:23  
Okay. The size difference is this whole whiz what makes it hilarious for those of you who don't know what the size. Okay, because copper's a little puggle. Okay, okay. Do you have issues with the dogs like sharing food or anything? Like if you were to get have a treat on the ground, would you have resource guarding issues or anything?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  21:45  
It's very strange. I I would have expected resource guarding, but either Daisy or Odie, whoever gets there first, gets the treat.

Lori Cohen  21:56  
And then, do you think that this happens a lot when Odie is relaxed, so not necessarily sleeping, but relaxed. Or is it even if he's awake, chewing on a bone, or interacting? Or is it at all times, no matter what? If Jane gives James gets up, it happens. Or is it more again, like when he's kind of sleepy, resting?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  22:19  
It's worse when he's resting.

Lori Cohen  22:23  
Yeah, exactly. Does that happen if he's startled? Like, if there's a noise outside or something, would that same reaction happen?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  22:31  
No, that's usually all hands to the door. We need to go yell at something.

Lori Cohen  22:34  
Yeah, I would say so. What you have seen work is some sort of redirection, and even if he's not actively interacting with copper. His brain is kind of like, this is weird. What do I do? I'm frozen. Like his brain is, if you think of this like wheel, it's going. I'm barking at James. I'm barking at James. And then the copper thing happens, and it's like we're doing another wheel. Essentially, what I would encourage you to try is any other sort of redirection, because what happens a lot with research beagles is they don't-they kind of get stuck in an emotion, and they don't know how to get out of an emotion, whether that's something good that's happening or something negative that's happening. They just kind of get stuck there, almost like a panic attack in a person, right? You can't like logically communicate with a panic attack, and it's really difficult for someone to get themselves out of a panic attack. So that concept. So if there's something that you can do to just kind of like interrupt his brain, and literally whatever that is, I think if you have food, that's a really good option. Or James has food, and something that we do with some of our clients, we call it a messy toddler. And a messy toddler is sometimes when some food like accidentally falls out of your pocket as you're walking, and you don't like acknowledge the dog or anything like that. You just kind of maybe just oops a little bit fell, and you just keep on your way. But something like that, or if he does have food and he kind of like tosses it away, or you know anything else that you can do to just get his brain going elsewhere. And if you can pull him out of it for just a second, even if he goes back and starts barking again, I would just continue to do the same thing again, and eventually you're going to be able to stop this cycle from happening, because I'm assuming if you're like, "Hey, stop barking, don't leave it, that's just you know, dad. Like that's logic. You're trying to speak to him logically, and it's just not going to work because he's too emotional. So you have to get him out of the emotion first, and focusing on something else, and then you can be like, "Hey, like, come over here. That was just your dad; he's just moving. But if you can add food or play in there, then all of a sudden, it's like maybe a little exciting when James gets up and walks around because, like, perhaps he might drop a piece of food. Accidentally, I don't know if that will work exactly. But without knowing anything else about your situation other than the past 20 minutes that we have been talking, I would explore something like that and see if you can get him to do that. And of course, you have to do it 500 times in order for it to, you know, become some subconscious for them. But if you can micromanage it for a little bit. I am curious to see if it would get better.

John Ramer  25:23  
What dog wouldn't want 500 treats?

Lori Cohen  25:25  
Really? I mean,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  25:28  
I don't know a beagle in the world who wouldn't want more treats.

Lori Cohen  25:32  
Exactly.

John Ramer  25:34  
And then if it doesn't work after 500 times, reach out and schedule a consultation with Chelsea.

Lori Cohen  25:39  
Absolutely. Exactly. And then I mean, that's what I always love. If I give something to do, I'm always like, "Please tell me if this works or this doesn't work. Because either way, that's data, and I have 25 other things that we can try based on how it went here. But I like to give the easiest solution first, and if that doesn't work, then we'll just, you know, we'll try something else, and it will get a little bit more difficult. But let's try the easiest way first,

John Ramer  26:00  
Chelsea. I have a question regarding all of that. My first go to when you started bringing up the the messy toddler thing. We we call them drive bys out here. My first thought went to James getting the dog's attention and tossing a treat as he stands up-is that something that could also work, or do you think if he walks out and drops treats as he going as he's going, would that be better?

Lori Cohen  26:33  
Either way, I like to say like as soon as you start to see the dog's body language change, because a lot of stuff comes before body language, but we can understand body language. So what I mean is, like, his cortisol is going to rise up. He's going to get you know tense, and we don't see that, but we do see the ears perk up, or we see them get stiff, or whatever, right? So at that first point, the sooner you can redirect their attention, the easier it is. So absolutely, if he knows he's going to get up, he could even say like, "Well, go into the kitchen and then get up and then like toss a treat, or he could get up and then you know Odie is like, "What are you doing? and then he quickly tosses a treat, or if he gets up and just doesn't even acknowledge Odie, walks in the kitchen, drops a treat. Any one of those are going to be totally fine. And you could honestly, I understand the irony of me saying experiment on the dog, being that it's a research dog, and I hate using the phrase experiment. But in some of these situations, see what works best. But yeah, John, you're absolutely right. It all could work.

John Ramer  27:40  
You do have to experiment as the human developing the habit. I don't think it's experimenting on the dog. I think it's experimenting on developing new human behaviors to accommodate the dog.

Lori Cohen  27:52  
Yes. What's going to be the easiest for James? And if several different things work, then he can choose.

John Ramer  28:07  
And now, dogs beyond the lab continues.

Lori Cohen  28:11  
Charisse, not that I feel that you should throw treats around to redirect James, but sometimes it's easy, easier I think for us humans to be more compassionate and forgiving towards our dogs than our spouses, than our kids, than our family. It's our human family, etc. So taking on a former research beagle, loving Odie as much as I know you do, has this offered more compassion towards James having PTSD. I I myself worked in jail for 10 years. I was diagnosed with PTSD. There was a time in my life that I could only leave my property for 30 minutes, and I had to have cameras and chained up. I'm giving a lot of information here. Hopefully, people don't think that I.

Lori Cohen  29:00  
I'm taking notes, writing it all. Lost my mind, yeah. But I mean,

Lori Cohen  29:03  
I know, I know what it's like. I know what it's like, and I know what it's like to get out of that. Thank, thank God. But for an outside person who doesn't experience that, it can be very frustrating because you're not going through it yourself, and and it's the reactions are very illogical. And so for another person, it as much as you want to have compassion, it can be very frustrating. Has Odie offered you an extra layer of compassion towards James in in that? I'm curious.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  29:34  
I think he has. We have a saying at our house: anxiety has no logic. So we. James has had some panic attacks. I've helped him through them, given him some focus on me. Let's do a little bit of something with your hands, something you can touch, something you can see, all that. And I think because I've seen Od. Still have panic attacks. It's been a little bit more helpful with James because anxiety has no logic.

Lori Cohen  30:09  
It also has no timeline. You know, you're three years in. If you know he's still having these panic attacks, these PTSD struggles, and James, I would imagine I've never lived with a person with PTSD, but I would imagine at some point it's like, why are you still worried about this? You know, like you know, a little frustrating because we don't understand what's going on in their head all the time, and maybe you know, having Odie and realizing we're doing everything that we can for him, and he's still struggling, it might make more sense that James is, you know, still struggling sometimes too.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  30:43  
Like James has even said, it's not easy to talk about what's going on in his head because it's not always just reliving that moment. Because that part he doesn't have a problem telling me about, but it's everything that's led up to because the higher his stress is, the more likely he is to have problems with the PTSD, and I've seen it with Odie too. When things are stressful, when things are out of routine, we might have had people coming and going in the house, like contractors for whatever reason. That's more stressful for him, and so he's a he has a small setback. Then it takes a while for him to settle back down. So there are parallels between the two of them. That the higher the stress is, the more likely an attack is going to happen.

Lori Cohen  31:38  
Yeah, I'll say that a lot of people think about trauma and PTSD, and they think what you just said about reliving that particular situation. And the way the brain works, a lot of the time, the brain blocks it out completely, which is why people who have gone through traumatic situations sometimes they'll be like, "I literally can't remember, and that's because the brain is protecting it. But what the brain and the nervous system do is they remember those emotions and they remember how they felt. And then not even when they're in the similar situation, but when they don't know what a situation is bringing, it's it's how your brain is interpreting what's currently happening, and if you don't understand what's currently happening, your body potentially is going to like increase your heart rate, or you know increase your cortisol or something like that. And so, even if you can logically say like probably nothing is going to happen here if you don't know and you don't feel safe. Even if you know you're safe, your nervous system is still going to not feel safe. And if you have trauma and if you have PTSD, that's going to start to kick in. And that's how the brain and the nervous system are so warped when you are when you have trauma and PTSD because logically we can talk it out and we know what's happening, but it's just our bodies can't be convinced, and that's why it's hard.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  33:15  
Oh, you just went to look for Poppy, by the way. I know you're talking you're

Lori Cohen  33:19  
talking about PTSD and perfectly poppy, he's like,

Lori Cohen  33:23  
"I'm fine. Into the conversation,

Lori Cohen  33:26  
here she is. She's okay. She knows we were talking about her. Uh huh. Charisse, do you? When I mean, you you fought the good fight against adopting. You you truly and sincerely said so many times that you just want you know to find Odie the best home for him so that his his anxiety would be reduced and you know we went through the process a couple of times and again they fell through for for no other reason than it was the adopter's personal issues that came up, and and something, something just stopped it, and and he just continued to to be fostered by you. When did you wave the white flag? Like when did you say, "Kay, I'm not letting this dog go. We're it's over.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  34:18  
When James said he was okay with it.

Lori Cohen  34:21  
Okay, I love that

Cherisse Friesen Epp  34:23  
because he has to live here too.

Lori Cohen  34:28  
Logic dictates. Yeah, I I love him too much to tell him to go live in his trucks. So so that so they had to get through it to get so you basically you watch them get through it, and what did that look like for James? I mean, I don't want you to speak for James, but obviously, you guys have. I know that you've spoken in depth about this with each other, with me. What what was James? Where did it come from in terms of James?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  35:00  
Perspective, he said that it was the fact that Odie trusted me so much he couldn't deal with trying to send him somewhere else to have to learn to trust another person all over again. He felt like that would be too much to ask of Odie. So, do you think, in a sense, that that was James having a self-reflective moment as well? I

Lori Cohen  35:27  
was just going to say that sounds pretty selfless.

Lori Cohen  35:29  
Yeah,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  35:30  
yeah. I'm sure it probably was, because he uses the picture of I'm like his anchor. I don't travel. I'm always at home. I'm always here when he gets home. Coming home is safe, and I think there's a piece of him that wanted that same safety for Odie.

Lori Cohen  35:52  
Maybe thinking, "What would happen? How would I feel if my safety net wasn't there, and now I can't like putting himself in Odie's shoes a little bit,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  36:01  
yeah, because I know he loves Odie. He just really wishes that Odie loved him as much as he loves him.

John Ramer  36:10  
Well, Odie obviously does. He tolerates him in the same house, right?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  36:15  
Exactly. It's not like you're you're back. I'm gonna bite your toes or something. It's

Lori Cohen  36:21  
just a different kind of love. It's just a different relationship. That's what I told my stepson when he said, "I think that Lori loves the beagle more than me. And I went, "No, honey, it's just a different relationship. And we laugh about it 10 years later, of course. So yeah,

Cherisse Friesen Epp  36:38  
yeah. I mean, the beagles are happy if I just feed them kibble every day. They don't ask for different food.

Lori Cohen  36:46  
How do you see Odie's future, Charisse?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  36:49  
I'm hoping that he continues to keep moving forward. I know that there will always be some sort of setback, but he's just going to keep moving a little bit past where he was after each of them, and so James was home alone with the dogs, and the broom got knocked over, and got tangled up in Odie's feet, and Odie was horribly insulted because apparently James attacked him with the broom. James was nowhere near the broom, and I think that's part of why he was barking at James all day yesterday. Was there was still a bit of a setback there, but by the next time James comes home, because he left on a trip today, the next time he comes home, I know Odie's going to be at least back to square one.

Lori Cohen  37:40  
There's always ups and downs.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  37:41  
Yes, I would like to see going forward longer spans of at least stability. I'm not asking for miracles. Miracles are awesome. I'll take them, but I'm not asking for them.

Lori Cohen  37:56  
If you could talk to somebody right now who's considering adopting from Kindness Ranch or fostering slash adopting from Beagle Alliance, and they're scared hearing even your story or some of the other stories that we have on here of can I handle this? What do I do? I don't, you know. There's so many unknowns. You thought you were getting one dog, and you ended up with a different, completely type of dog. You know, if if someone's considering fostering or adopting and they're nervous, what would you want them to hear? The Beagle Alliance Kindness Ranch. I'm sure some of the other larger Beagle rescues. They have resources. Use the resources that are made available to you. Reach out to John or Laurie, Chelsea, whoever your contact is, and say, "I need help. Here's what we're dealing with. Can you help me brainstorm ideas, or how do we? How have other people gotten over

Cherisse Friesen Epp  39:00  
this behavior? Because you know what, it's gonna be a little scary, and you're gonna have days where you're at a loss, because, I mean, we're almost three years in, and I think I need to buy stocks in pee pads.

John Ramer  39:19  
That was not where I thought that was going.

Lori Cohen  39:21  
Yeah, that it's not where I thought it was going either. But in other words, you're not. Don't let yourself get isolated and feel alone. And I think that that that is something that, especially with the most recent goings on with the Ridgeland breeding facility, etc. is that really is something that John and Chelsea Kindness and keeper and kin and the Beagle Alliance. I think that's something that we really wanted to make clear: is that you don't have to walk this alone. There's resources out there. We're willing to share them, and we just want the dogs to go on to live great lives. Of course, with the perfect people that want to help them, and and so you don't have to walk. I guess is is the bottom line. If you are at your wits' end, which you're not, you know, would you say though, Sharice, that the joy outweighs the at the wit's end?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  40:10  
Absolutely, 100% When I see the look of absolute joy on Odie's face when he runs across the yard after having thieved another apple off my tree.

John Ramer  40:29  
Amazing!

Lori Cohen  40:29  
Doesn't it make you smile just every day?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  40:32  
It does, and he's now he's now come to this point where he will go and take an apple, and he'll bring it onto the deck, and he'll bat it around and like toss it around, and it's it's like watching a bit of a cat with one of their little toy mice for a bit, and then he hunkers down and he starts eating his apple. It warms my heart to watch you just be a dog.

John Ramer  40:57  
Yep, I get it. That's amazing. Number one, you're a phenomenal caretaker of both two-legged and four-legged. I think that your story is a perfect example of getting the dogs out of the facilities is such a small part of their journey, and that it takes amazing, patient, big-hearted people such as yourself to ensure that these dogs have their happily ever after. And I personally, I can't thank you enough. I remember the group that Odie came from, and I'm sure when Laurie was driving back to Canada, she was asking herself what she ever did to me for me to send her these dogs. Thank you so much because when when we get the animals out, the dogs, cats, you name it. To know that they go on to be so cared for is what gives us the continued hope and drive. Because once they leave the property, you know, there's always that that little seed in the back of my head that is like, I wonder if they're okay. I wonder if they're okay. So I love connecting with people that have gotten some of our dogs, whether directly from us or through Beagle Alliance or anywhere else. But thank you. I I love hearing how much they're loved and cared for.

Lori Cohen  42:35  
You're the real work. I you know we say this all the time, but the fosters and adopters are the true heroes. You know I think John and Chelsea, you know, we get a lot of gratitude and thanks for for what we do, and it's it's humbling and appreciated. But it really is a minimal part, you know. As I'm handing over a dog, it's I agree, John. You're always worried. Will the dog be okay? Although when I know I'm handing it over to someone I've formed a relationship with as a foster or adopter, I know some of the ups and downs that are going to happen, and I think the very least that we can do is be there for you and for you to know that you guys are the real heroes. You you do the boots on the ground work every day with that dog, and go through their emotions and your own emotions, and obviously your husband's emotions, and all the things. So I agree. Thank you. And and I'm not going to call it a negative, but I guess you know I have some great fosters out there who end up adopting, and then I lose you.

Lori Cohen  43:37  
I think it's so funny how you're like, I'm definitely fostering. We're going to have a bunch of them in and out, in and out. Yeah, and the first one you get, you're like, "Whoops,

Lori Cohen  43:45  
over. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, guess

Lori Cohen  43:48  
not.

Lori Cohen  43:49  
So true, so true.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  43:52  
But I mean, honestly, I think it was meant to be because he fits in so well. One other thing I forgot that I would like to add: one of the biggest things I found to get him out of his shell: engage his nose.

Lori Cohen  44:06  
Oh, 100% People, yeah. You don't get me started. Don't get her started. Sniffing has so many benefits for dogs. I could talk about all the areas of the brain, all the things it does for them, and all these different aspects, and like people need to use their dog's nose, make them sniff, give them scavenger hunts. Like it will, it will change their lives. I'm so glad you said that, and you know that.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  44:33  
I was pulling corn cobs out of his mouth on our walk yesterday because we live near a greenhouse, and they were on their way to our little grocery store with some corn, and a bunch popped off the trailer. I don't want him eating corn cobs, so I'm like, I'm so happy that you discovered that with your nose, but

Lori Cohen  44:53  
now I want it. Yes, that's what I say every time my cat brings a. That animal into my yard, and my dogs are all over it. Well, you guys had a great time now, but thanks anyway.

John Ramer  45:05  
Charisse, do you have any questions for us?

Cherisse Friesen Epp  45:08  
How do you guys do it? I know that you guys see things that I wouldn't be able to deal with. Like I know you guys see the dogs coming out with shaved fur and everything, like how do you do it and still go back again?

John Ramer  45:27  
Me personally, every facility that Kindness Ranch works with, I have been inside, and I've seen all of the dogs. I've seen all of the other animals. I I know the people that work there. Most of them, I'm on a first name basis with, and I make it a point to find something to discuss with the staff that is not animal related. We talk about vacations. We talk about their kids. We talk about Random things, because it allows that human connection. And as soon as I can look at them as another human being and a person, then I'm not led by my emotions. Being an animal lover, seeing all of these dogs in cages, and then when we're loading animals into the transport van, and we are taking them back to the sanctuary, I look behind me and I know that I made that human connection. The fact that I was able to make that human connection means that at some point, whether in the next week or the next year, every animal that I saw in there stands a better chance of coming to us. And so, instead of looking at what I would view as a horrific scene as an animal lover looking at these dogs and the cats in cages. I look at them as future adoptable animals that I will be back to get, and that's the only thing that keeps me able to keep moving on and seeing them in such good homes as yours.

Lori Cohen  47:20  
I don't have the same experience as John because we have yet to do those things in Canada. Although I I know that it's on the horizon, so I too will have to be at that point. But right now, knowing what I know, I think that this is exactly why we say one beagle at a time, so that we can focus on the individual. I think when you focus, if I focus on the numbers of dogs that I know to be in facilities in Canada, I would go into my own PTSD of either fight, flight, or freeze, which means I would be Not effective, obviously. So I think balancing the fact that we want to make a difference in the long term for as many animals as possible, and of course for legislation and enforcing of laws, etc. and the protection of animals in research, alongside of every dog is an individual, and if I hold tight, if I hold tight to how much I am in love with my dogs, it brings me joy to realize that every single dog that we take from Kindness Ranch is going to make a difference for that dog's life, but also for that person's life because they're going to love that dog as much as I love my dog, and then I can sit back and go, "Well, we all do as much as we can do, and we all can't do it all. So I just have to keep moving forward, a little bit like they have to keep moving Forward and take the joy where you find the joy and celebrate that. And I think that's something that the three of us do well together: is that we focus on the little joyous movements that each dog makes, and I think that is something to hold on to.

Lori Cohen  49:24  
I trust the Beagle Lions and Kindness Ranch so much that they are doing what they need to do to be getting dogs out of facilities. And there are other people, other companies or organizations who are doing that work also. And I trust that they are doing what they need to do, and they know a lot more about that world than I do. What keeps me going is seeing the dogs when they first get out of the lab day one, and being able to know the potential of that dog, and being able to know I can help that, and. Working with fosters and adopters for months and years, if we have to down the road to get that dog to its full potential, and having conversations like this with adopters and with fosters, and hearing how much that dog has changed their lives and the emotion that that dog has brought to their lives, and of course, seeing what the dog has become after what they have been through. To me, I feel like I can't not do that. If I know what this can bring to the human and what it can bring for that dog, the rest of this stuff, I'm going to let work in the way that it will, and Kindness Ranch, Beagle Alliance, and others just get the dogs out, get the dogs safe, and then you know we can go from there, and we can help give them the best life possible, and be like amazing best friends to their people.

John Ramer  51:02  
Best friends.

Lori Cohen  51:02  
Do you think your dog thinks that you're his best friend, or do you think your dog thinks that you're their mother or their father? Like I saw something the other day online that says your dog could either think they're your best friend, or your or their parent, or your their mate, or something like that. Like I feel like my dog just thinks I'm this roommate that he has. Like he is, he is like antisocial.

Lori Cohen  51:26  
That's hilarious because I do think that my dogs think I'm everything, and

Lori Cohen  51:34  
not me. And

Lori Cohen  51:35  
the reason I say that is because I think I think I know they're everything to me, so so I feel like we're both just like we don't even know the world outside of mummy, bestie, all of it. We don't know that

Lori Cohen  51:51  
is my dog and my husband. My dog, I joke. This is a terrible joke, and I'm sorry if I am offending anyone when I say this, but I joke that my dog has Asperger's because he's like, I want to be near you, but don't you dare call me over to cuddle. Well, you know,

Lori Cohen  52:07  
right? Okay, well, hold on. Everyone's got a beagle in the screen, so I have to do that too. Poppy,

Lori Cohen  52:11  
I don't. Of course, he's not here with me. My dog is not in the room. Pop, because he, he's probably down with Dad.

John Ramer  52:18  
Cammy would just say that I'm her servant.

Lori Cohen  52:20  
Yeah, yeah, I am a bit of a servant. Well, I'm calling, I'm calling Poppy, and she's not coming. Like, is this for

Lori Cohen  52:26  
us? Do you think that Odie is? Do you think what do you Odie thinks about you? What's your role?

Lori Cohen  52:32  
Look at Odie.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  52:34  
I think Odie looks at me like a bit more of his mom because he follows me around all day. He's usually like five feet away from me at any given time.

Lori Cohen  52:46  
Must be nice, guys.

Cherisse Friesen Epp  52:47  
Daisy, on the other hand, is I'm definitely her roommate. That she barely tolerates somebody.

Lori Cohen  52:52  
They are kind of different because I think I am Poppy's safety blanket. Literally, she even walks into the washroom with me. But Lily is kind of like my right hand girl. Like she's like my sidekick. Like if we were Bonnie and Clyde, we'd be Bonnie and Clyde.

Speaker 1  53:11  
Like

John Ramer  53:11  
Thelma and Louise.

Lori Cohen  53:13  
Yeah, that's better. Thank you, John. Yeah, thank you.

Lori Cohen  53:17  
When I go to Kindness and I really like cuddle with those dogs and bond, and they are obsessed with me. And then I get home, and I'm like, Stanley, come over, like, give mommy a hug. And he grumbles at me, and I'll just be like, Where's Rex? You know what? Like, you know what? Where's the dog who loves me? And I know that sounds terrible. That's just his personality. He's a very independent dog. Yeah,

John Ramer  53:38  
people really need to start watching our YouTube more because they get to see all of these great dogs.

Lori Cohen  53:44  
I agree. I agree. Well, thank you, Charisse. As usual, always love catching up and just appreciate you sharing what is really a personal, very personal story between the relationships, etc. in your house. And and I just appreciate you And James, and what you guys are still working through, and you know we're always here, and of course now it's it's no longer BC, so you have Chelsea as well. I thank you for trusting with two dogs.