Melanie Kaplan: Lab Beagles, Legislation, and Love

John Ramer  0:00  
I'm John Raymer from Kindness Ranch Animal Sanctuary in Wyoming,

Lori Cohen  0:04  
and I'm Lori Cohen from the Beagle Alliance in Manitoba, Canada, 

Chelsey Marino  0:08  
and I'm Chelsea Marino from Keeper and Kin in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is Dogs Beyond the Lab.

John Ramer  0:18  
Welcome back, everyone, to Dogs Beyond the Lab. Today we're joined by the amazing author Melanie Kaplan, and full disclosure, she is a close friend of all of ours. So we can just start off with saying hello.

Melanie Kaplan  0:32  
Hi. Hello.

John Ramer  0:34  
Good timing. Everybody's right on key there. Melanie, thank you so much for joining us, it's an honor to have you with us.

Melanie Kaplan  0:43  
Well, thank you. This is such a treat. The only thing better would be to be at Kindness Ranch in a yurt, just all sitting around a fire. But it's awesome to see your faces and to have a chance to chat.

John Ramer  0:55  
So you have had quite the amazing year with the release of your book, Lab Dog, and all of the media it's been getting, and your travels and everything. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what a whirlwind it is to be such a celebrity all of a sudden?

Melanie Kaplan  1:11  
Well, of course, I'm always thinking about Hammy because the book is about Hammy, and I imagine that he would be on book tour with me. So you know, it's a little bittersweet, of course, but he he would be almost 17 at this point, and oh wow, he would not want to be on book tour. So I trust that he's somewhere smiling down and, you know, watching me and enjoying enjoying this whirlwind of of me being kind of on this wave and and just out there talking about the book, which has been really fun. I didn't know what to expect. This is my first book, and it's it's quite a shift going from years of everything just being in my head, all of this reporting and research and information, and then one day you've got to go out and speak about it and sound bitable sentences, and and that's kind of been a crazy learning curve, but I've enjoyed it.

John Ramer  2:06  
Well, since I have known you, you have been vehemently anti social media, anti smartphone, and now I see you all over our socials and all of the pictures and amazing stories of the people that you've touched, which is just incredible. It's I'm I couldn't be happier for you. I am so proud of how well the book has done, and I don't just say that because I'm like three lines in your book, but I'm super super happy for you. The whole thing with Dogs Beyond the Lab was supposed to touch on how these research animals have changed our lives, and you've encapsulated that so well in your book. There's there's no need for our podcast. You've said it all.

Melanie Kaplan  2:55  
It's true. Thank you. I I really appreciate you saying that, and and it just it means a lot to hear that from you and and to know that story resonates with people. I mean, it's been super fun to travel around and meet former lab beagles or beagles who were bred to be used in research. And at many of my in-person events, we have those beagles there. Of course, when I came to see you guys and we met up in Colorado, and we had I think it was like almost 25 beagles at the brewery. Oh great

John Ramer  3:28  
turnout! Yeah, oh, it

Melanie Kaplan  3:29  
was so fun, and I got to meet some kindness ranch beagles like Cinnamon and Kane, and I've just fallen in love with every single one of them. But for all these beagles, this story of Hammy is is their beagle story too because they get to learn about the history of dog research and when it started centuries ago and why we're still breeding dogs and what they're used for and how the government requires it in some cases and you know I know for me when I adopted Hammy I didn't know any of this, and I just knew he was in a lab, and I didn't really want to think about what happened before because you know this is somebody I loved, and I didn't want to think about him in a bad situation. But it got to the point where I I had to have those questions answered. So it's been it's been nice to be able to share that story with other people who are curious about their dogs' pasts as well,

Lori Cohen  4:24  
Melanie. Yes, I think it exactly does that. It answers a lot of questions for a lot of people, and a lot of questions that John, you, and I have probably heard from fosters, adopters, supporters, donors. It really does answer a lot of questions, especially for those who now have former research dogs, but as you were writing the book, what do you think the most profound questions were answered for you in the course of doing this research? I mean, I'm sure there's so many answers, but but what struck you that you would have never thought that you would have heard?

Melanie Kaplan  5:01  
The scale of this industry was endlessly surprising to me. I mean, when I thought about breeding beagles for research, I was picturing some backyard operation. I don't even know what I was picturing. I was not picturing a giant industrial system. And of course, when I started reporting in 2021, there were three big industrial beagle breeders. There was Invigo in Virginia, and Ridgeland in Wisconsin, and Marshall in upstate New York. And then while I was reporting, Invigo closed, and now Ridgeland is closing, and that just leaves us with one. But that that one, I mean, there's 20,000 beagles there at any given time, and I never ever picture that. I I couldn't have guessed that there were, you know, possibly more than 100 million rats and mice alone used in a given year. So yeah, the scale of it blew me away. But there were a lot of questions I didn't get answers to. I mean, I was kind of hoping, as I went through this process, it would become very clear to me. Like, okay, am I for animal research or against animal research? And you know, where do I stand? And what I found is that for me, it was a lot more nuanced and complicated and a really complex question because, of course we've learned a lot from animal research over the years, and there are some alternatives now, and I don't think they're being used widely enough. But but yeah, it's it's really complicated.

Chelsey Marino  6:35  
I was reading this book. There are parts of it that I had to step away from because obviously there are stories in there that are heartbreaking and unimaginable to think about. But for me, those stories were so familiar. Like all of the things that you were experiencing at home with Hammy are the things that I hear working with different fosters and adopters every day. And there's a lot of public conversation about getting the dogs out of the labs, but part of my personal mission with Keeper and Kin is to help people understand that there's so much that goes on after all of that. And your book, to me, felt like one of the first major publications that brought that to life, and it gives this almost legitimacy to this experience that all these other people are having. So, first of all, thank you for that, and that experience and that understanding of what happens with the dogs in the home is also what Dogs Beyond the Lap podcast is about. It's to tell that story. So, I'm happy that you're here, so we can kind of combine what to me is the first couple of things that are in the world talking about those stories. So the question to follow that is: When you were writing about your life at home with Hammy, especially at the beginning, were you conscious that you were going to be documenting this experience that wasn't really out in the world publicly before.

Melanie Kaplan  8:03  
No, I did not expect to write about this for for years. And it's funny. I say in the book that when I started fostering Hammy, I had no intention of keeping him. So normally, if I was going down that path, I'd have my little notepad, and I'd be taking all kinds of notes on the day I adopted him, and all kinds of pictures for referencing later. And it's like, no, this is a short-term thing. And and then he became, you know, he was my pet dog, and I introduced him to people, and and I did write some some short articles about him. But again, I think that for me, I didn't want to go there until many years later, and and that's the case for a lot of people. I mean, just talking to audiences and friends and family, there's some people who say, you know what? There's enough difficult things going on in the world. I don't want to read about animal research, and sometimes I win them over because I say, you know, this is a very personal story. I mean, this is a love story between Hammy and me. And this is also something that, as a voter and as a consumer and a patient, that that I think people need to know about. I think that everybody needs to know that this is happening. These are our tax dollars going to animal research. Anyway, I I think that once I made that decision to do it, I didn't feel like I have had a choice anymore. I felt like I I need to tell this story, and you know it seemed like there would be enough readers out there who either were interested in this or just interested in a good read, you know. I just had to really look back at old emails and think about my experience with Hammy from the early days, and talk to some of the other fosters and adopters from when I adopted him, because we all kind of went through that experience together. There was no keeper and kin then. There really wasn't. A lot online about former lab beagles and the traumas that they were experiencing. So we just really relied on each other. There was a group of seven of us who adopted from the same group, and you know we'd get on the phone and say, "Oh my God, my beagle's not walking through doorways, or "My beagle like rolled over and fell off the couch because he doesn't have any spatial awareness, and you know we really became this kind of community and and grew through this together as our beagles became, you know, more used to living out in the real world.

Chelsey Marino  10:32  
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people in that community that haven't had any sort of publication or even any sort of connection or realizing that other people are going through similar things. So I love your book because I know I don't have a lat beagle, but of course I work with them every day. And I was like, gosh, you know, someone gets it. You know, like I was just so happy to hear you explain those things that happen with the dog, all the feelings you're feeling, and like how he was at home throughout his life, especially at the beginning. And I just I'm so happy that the book exists because I think it really helps people going through that situation really connect and you know feel validated almost in what they're feeling and what their dog's doing.

Melanie Kaplan  11:19  
Thank you,

Lori Cohen  11:20  
Chelsea. I think it's a great parallel. This podcast, the the sort of the premise of this podcast in its parallel with Melanie's book, because of course it is about having former research beagles and how they've impacted and changed our lives. But along with this podcast, your book also transcends the whole world, Melanie, of animal research because you just talk about your daily life with Hammy. You talk about the loss of Hammy, and I am not going to quote anything from your book right now because we know we're going to cry if I do that. So I'm not going to. That is something that is so fundamental in this culture is our love for our dogs and how we think of them as family and best friends, and we grieve their loss. And they are just such important creatures in our lives. So, what did that look like for you? When I mean, you do describe Hammy's last night, and it's in the book. And then it sucked to

Chelsey Marino  12:26  
read that. It was hard to read that. But anyone, anyone

Lori Cohen  12:30  
who's ever had a dog, we've all lived that, and then we we do it all over again, and we keep doing it because we can't live without having dogs in our lives, and I think that that transcends the subject matter of of it being a former research of Hammy being a former research beagle, and of it the book being about research and animal testing. But what was that like? What was it like when the book was in your face and beautiful, and your creation, and you put it out in the world. And Hammy wasn't with you.

Melanie Kaplan  13:08  
Oh, you know, I miss him so much every day, and it feels like it feels like an honor to be able to keep telling this story and telling his story and his life. And you know it's not the same as having him hop in the car and going on a road trip just the two of us one of my favorite things ever but you know it does it feels like he inspired me and I had this important job to do and and I did it I mean I would have never taken on this topic without Hammy so he opened this world to me, and and writing a book was an amazing experience. He was at my side for for almost all of it. Yeah, I'm just I'm glad that even people who didn't get to meet him in person, like John did, get to get to know him now through the book. And you know, I think the fact that people can relate to that, whether it's crawling in bed with a dog at night or losing a dog or whatever it is, that that is also just a reminder that these dogs who are specifically bred or purpose bred to be used in labs, or the mice or the ferrets or the bunnies, they are just dogs and mice and ferrets and bunnies. They are not special research dogs that are different creatures. I mean, it's the same. They're the same species. They have likes and dislikes and fears and loves. So that just really brings home the point of these animals being confined and and how really awful it is because they can't be their normal selves and express all these things that they do or don't like. They can't go out sniffing and so you know I think people understanding that Hammy was just you know he was like the same you know we have the same emotions toward those dogs. And he was a dog in the lab, and he's the same animal. Anyway, I hope that point comes across in the book. And you know, it was just fun to be able to weave our story through some of the tougher chapters and the science. And you know, I think that because he was with me for all of it, he was with me, meeting the people that I interviewed and the researchers, and going to you know the lab at Emulate. It just made it even more special because he was he was reporting with me. Did you have trouble with that when writing the book? I guess balancing this to me, I see it in in threes the way I see it in my head of the history of Hammy, animal testing, the science, all of that is one part you need to convey. And then there's this behavioral aspect of what Hammy experiences day to day because

Chelsey Marino  16:00  
of his history, and then there's these this other part of Hammy that maybe you only saw, but like I know when I have consultations with people, they always tell me all of these things that their dog has issues with, and a lot of the times at the very end, they're like, you know, but he's such a good dog, and he does this, and he I'm making him out to sound terrible, and I'm like, I know he's a good dog, you know. Like I'm sure there's these weird, funny things that he does, and you know, in your book, I think you balance those three things very well. And did how did you find that balance of making sure we know the history and the facts and Hammy's struggles, but without making those two things who he is, you know, like you want to make sure we we still know he's just a dog at the end of the day, you know.

Melanie Kaplan  16:50  
You know, I think that was just the trick of trying to. I mean, as a as a writer, you you don't want you never want too much of one thing. You don't want it unbalanced in terms of long stretches of explaining science or history, and then it's like, well, wait, where's Hammy? What's Hammy doing? And so my editor was incredibly helpful, just reminding me what the reader experiences, and you know that that just helped me figure out when to bring Hammy back in and when to move the narrative forward and have some action. Like you know, we went here or we stopped at the fire station. He got a treat, and I was thinking about these conversations I just had. And so, you know, I just think as a writer, somehow, you know, I am figuring out how to create that flow where the reader can kind of come along with us and doesn't get lagged, bogged down by you know anything too technical or you know some of the histories.

Chelsey Marino  17:54  
I think it was a great balance. I feel like we got to know all these different parts about Hammy while you know hearing what you were researching and what was going on, and learning a lot too. So I think it was great. I think you did a great job.

Melanie Kaplan  18:07  
Thank you, Chelsea. I do

Lori Cohen  18:08  
too. I do too, and a lot. And I, John, I want to give you an opportunity to ask your question, but I do want to say on top of it, also balancing the overwhelm because we hear from people all the time about how they back off from the subject matter because of the overwhelm, the overwhelming thought that dogs are used. Let's face it, more so than than how they are affected by any other animal, just by the nature of the relationship we have with dogs in our culture. I did have to stop when I read the book and breathe, but I it wasn't because so much of the overwhelm. It was just taking in the fact that this is happening that you documented it so well that it is a very well oiled machine out there that exists, and also the impact of it being not just an animal welfare or animal rights issue, but it is a societal issue in that it is not yielding animal testing is not you know yielding the effective treatments and cures that maybe the mass public believes it is on top of the fact that animals are being harmed, and so I think that you did balance it really well because I never I never put the book down and said okay I can't read this it's too it's too much there was enough human animal bond that you wanted to know how things were going to play out, and you wanted to learn that, and that's. I think that's really tricky, Melanie. I think that's an amazing job. I think that's really tricky because most people say that they'll turn the TV off or the social media graphic pictures off, and we've heard this all. We hear this all the time. Our supporters will say, "Don't show us graphic." We don't want to see the graphics. It's we we know what we know, and that's good enough. So I think, yeah, I just wanted to say that I think you really balanced that well, and and that and the overwhelm was not necessarily overwhelm.

Melanie Kaplan  20:12  
Thank you. My north star during this whole process was my mother because she's very sensitive and very squeamish and loves animals, and I just kept thinking, okay, my mom needs to be able to read this book. And there, there was so much more reading and research that I did. I mean, I literally could have written five books with everything that I knew when I sat down to write.

John Ramer  20:36  
There's still time.

Chelsey Marino  20:38  
I was like, maybe we made a sequel. Yeah, there will not be a sequel.

Melanie Kaplan  20:43  
No Lab Dog Two, but anyway, I mean that's that's part of the writer's job is to curate what goes in. I mean, there's a whole glacier of information underwater that you never see. You just see the little bit that's on top, and that becomes the book. But but just like you said, Lori, people tell me all the time. You know, I had to put it down. I had to stop. Or just when I didn't think I could read anymore, then there was a hammy scene, and I said, you know what? That's how I had to write it too. I had to. That's

John Ramer  21:11  
got to be such a great compliment, though. That your your writing has affected somebody on such a level that they have to take a break and digest it, and then they they willingly come back, and

Melanie Kaplan  21:24  
they come back to it. Though that's nice. I haven't thought of it that way, but that is yeah. If they pick it back up again, that's that is amazing to hear.

John Ramer  21:32  
So you you just mentioned what you felt was a writer's job when sharing information in the book and documenting everything, and what to leave out and what to include, and I I know that I can speak for all of us here, especially in our line of work, that there's a lot of self-proclaimed authors, aspiring authors, and people that in some of their works it it can come across as Very, very agenda-driven, and that they, whether knowingly or not, may write articles or short books on explaining basically why they feel a certain way, and what what I think all of us are trying to say is thank you for having a well balanced book without publicly shaming somebody. It doesn't feel like there's a gatekeeping or an agenda. It's just sharing the the information and knowledge that you learned along the way, and I I say all of that to kind of circle it back around to something else that the four of us all share, and that is our own small parts in the the upcoming as of this recording documentary, The New Gold Standard. And did you ever think that adopting Hammy would land you with a best-selling book and such a prominent role in such a moving documentary?

Melanie Kaplan  23:12  
I did not, and I'm still waiting for the best-selling book. But I am so so thrilled about the documentary. I mean, it's funny when Stephen reached out. He reached out through LinkedIn, and I think he, you know, was on his reporting journey back last fall. And I think that a few people said, "Oh, have you read Lab Dog? Do you know Melanie? And and so he reached out, and we found out we both went to Syracuse University and we're in the communications school there, and we just had all these, all these overlaps. You know, he did a piece on Dog Mountain, I did a piece on Dog Mountain, and here we were kind of covering the same topic in in a similar way. Anyway, the whole process of being interviewed and talking to him and Conrad was was just amazing. So no, I did not ever dream this.

John Ramer  24:07  
Well, the the main reason I bring that up is when when you first visited Kindness Ranch, I think it was in 2021. We agreed

Melanie Kaplan  24:16  
early 2022, like February March 22.

John Ramer  24:21  
We were in contact prior to that. For yes, we spoke because I had

Melanie Kaplan  24:25  
written an article. I wrote an article the previous summer about Hammy.

John Ramer  24:29  
I I look back on on that time, and I I was just in the process of trying to really find my footing out here at Kindness Ranch, and I was, I was delving more and more and more into the the industry of laboratory research in the animals used, and what I tend to be amazed at looking back is how naive I. Was to a lot, and when people would ask me why they still research on animals and how many animals are used and what happens to them all, back then I didn't have nearly the access to the information that I have now, and part of that is also included in your book and the documentary. Both have done such a good job of making that information digestible, easily shareable, and an organization like Kindness Ranch doesn't hesitate to promote and share that because it it is so well balanced and not shaming of anybody. You don't even shame the institutions themselves. You just lay out the information very plainly, just like Stephen does in the documentary. And I love finally after all these years, having something to point people to to give them the information that they're looking for, and it doesn't come across as preachy from the director of some animal sanctuary in Wyoming or some foster-based rescue in Canada or a dog behaviorist. It's just here, educate yourself, and I love having that resource to turn people towards.

Chelsey Marino  26:24  
I agree. I push your book all the time when my clients ask me, "Well, what happened here? Why do we do this? You know, what did they go through? What's it like? And I'm like, "You know what? You should read Lab Dog because that will answer all the questions that you have. It's a great read, and you know, it's not my place to give that information. I'm not the one who knows it like the back of my hand, but Melanie is, and her book's great. So I, I also appreciate having that resource to have people go to.

Lori Cohen  26:54  
And I think the new gold standard is going to even emphasize the scientific options after the fact, in even a more profound way, because of the details there, and and the background and the credibility of the incredible people that Stephen had in the film, I think that people are really going to have a handle on what this industry is about as much as we can between your book and between Stephen's documentary, for sure.

Melanie Kaplan  27:26  
You know, when when we all were watching the screening of the documentary, I I can't believe how much I learned. I mean, the non animal methods are changing so quickly. So between the time that I finished my manuscript and Stephen started reporting. I mean, there there are methods that that weren't even didn't even exist, and the things scientists are working on are are pretty incredible now. So I think you know all that is is super powerful. And I mean, to your point about being fair, that is something I worked really hard on. And I mean, my feeling is the facts are so powerful here. There's there's no need to exaggerate. There's no need to call anybody out because the facts talk about it. I mean, somebody who just read my book recently was reading about the inspection report from Invigo, one of the USDA inspection reports that was shortened from more than 100 pages down to I can't remember what the final number of pages was, but it was significantly shortened, and the the inspector was pressured to do that, and and so this person who read it was like I cannot believe it. I mean, he was like livid reading this. So this is a United States. This is the United States Department of Agriculture, and how it's like how how can this happen? And and then it kind of gets swept under the rug. But I mean, if you are presenting facts, like you don't need to attack. You don't need to be angry. It's like, yeah, this is what's happening in our country.

John Ramer  29:09  
And now, dogs beyond the lab continues.

Lori Cohen  29:13  
Holistically speaking, when I think of what's been going on, and well, first off, I just want to start. I just want to throw this out there. You guys have all heard me say this because we're friends, but I do definitely believe there is so much divinity in the timing of all of this. John and I can get in that argument later, but I because we just because we like to, but I mean we all have to admit that the the timing of all of these things coming together, you know, Stephen in his film definitely did not have to cover anything going on in Canada. But again, while we were filming at Kindness Ranch in September, the Saint Joseph's Exposé was happening, and we. We're trying to get those dogs out, and a further expose on another laboratory in Ontario happened shortly thereafter. And then the Premier of Ontario changed legislation, and the protesting and the global awareness whether everyone was in agreement on how everything went down or not was not the issue. It was, and and then of course your book throughout all of it, John. You know the lab closing down in Colorado, although it was a little bit less as out there seemingly because of all the other jumping up and down in media. But all of these things, coupled with the coming the premiere of the movie, I mean, this has to be the beginning of great change and great hope. And when people see that our both of our countries, where we do expect our governments to represent our values. Holistically speaking, it is now, I believe, our jobs as taxpayers to go to the root of the problem, which is legislation and the enforcement of laws. And anything else is just really treating the symptom, but I guess my point in all of this is that I think that there's no coincidence in all of these things happening all at the same time.

Melanie Kaplan  31:32  
Can we talk about my visit to Kindness Ranch? Because I mean, this was honestly one of my very very favorite field trips for reporting the book, and it was amazing how it came about because I was in Florida in February when I read the article that there were some dogs leaving an undisclosed facility, which we of course know as In Vigo, and going out to Kindness Ranch, and I was like, oh, I remember Kindness Ranch. I talked to John last year, and I emailed him. I was staying with my mom and stepdad in Sarasota, and I said, "Hey, you're getting some beagles. Can Hammy and I come visit? And by the time I woke up the next morning, I had an email in my inbox from John saying, "You guys are Welcome anytime, and reminder: this was February. I'm set to drive out to Wyoming, and so you know, Hammy and I got in the car and we drove through all these snowstorms in St. Louis, and we stayed in crappy hotels. And we got there, and you know, of course, wearing rose-colored glasses, it was the most amazing couple weeks. There were several more snowstorms, but I got to foster, I think, four different beagles while I was staying there, and hang out with some of the other animals. And then John, I had to track you down because you were all over the place. You're like, well, I'm flying here, and I'm flying out to see Bill Stanley in Virginia. I'm like, okay, we are setting up an interview, and you came up in your

John Ramer  33:08  
it was a busy time

Melanie Kaplan  33:09  
snowplow or your tractor. You came up to the yurt. You're like, okay, here I am. But yeah, it was just such a magical time, and of course, Hammy was with me, and he loved bounding around in the snow and coming back into the fire. And yeah, I just have such happy memories of that visit.

Lori Cohen  33:30  
And you would have loved it because there's no internet there; would have been right up your alley.

Melanie Kaplan  33:34  
Oh yeah, no, I know.

Lori Cohen  33:35  
Yes, no, I do remember. No, we had to go. I had to go

Melanie Kaplan  33:41  
down to the office.

Lori Cohen  33:42  
Oh, it was that. Okay, fair enough. Yeah.

Melanie Kaplan  33:45  
And then the reason that I stayed so long is because John, you said, "Hey, we've got more beagles coming in a couple weeks, and we didn't know exactly what day. And then the day the beagles arrived was just like this magical day where I got to see them come out of the van.

John Ramer  34:02  
Was was that the day that we had like 40 of them dropped off? And I I remember you standing in in our intake area, and you just had this look of exhaustion, joy, and bewilderment just at all of these dogs everywhere. And I was I was out cruising around in our our big blue New Holland tractor trying to plow snow so everybody could get to work.

Melanie Kaplan  34:28  
Oh my gosh! And then one of your employees, like his maybe this was a day before his truck went off the road and got stuck in the snow, and then somebody else, you know, it was just like yeah, there was a lot going on, but we saw that that van turn the corner and turn into the ranch, and you know it was just it was so emotional. And it is, yeah, amazing.

Chelsey Marino  34:52  
I feel the same way when I go to Kindness. I'm like, this is the best place in the world. There's all these dogs. It's so secluded from everything. It's peaceful. And then, yeah, the the the day that those dogs come in is such a mix of emotions. It's it's chaotic and it's exciting and it's heartbreaking and it's intimidating. Of you know how how are they going to be? What are they going to feel safe? What can I do to make them feel safe? It's it's a cool, weird feeling, for sure.

John Ramer  35:23  
I call it our our little beagle hypomanic bipolar roller coaster because you you literally go from one dog coming out of its crate after being on the van for who knows how long, and they're just so happy and they're jumping up and down, and they're happy to see you, and they just want to snuggle and get scratches. And literally 30 seconds later, another one is so terrified that it's sitting in its own urine in a crate, too scared to come out from being so overwhelmed. And then, if you were one of the people on the transport, you're exhausted from having driven for up to 36 hours straight, and you're on such an adrenaline rush from actually successfully making it back and unloading all of the dogs, and then finally all of the dogs are out, and it's about midday, and and you're home for lunch, and you just take a deep breath and almost pass out from just

Lori Cohen  36:22  
it's true

John Ramer  36:23  
sheer exhaustion.

Lori Cohen  36:24  
That's true. That's that's our entire life coming to kindness. I don't even breathe until I make it home. John knows that we stayed an extra day because Brenda and I are over it now. We're like we can't we can't. It's too much to. We need to be there and and enjoy it, and not just leave in 12 hours or less like we usually do. And but it's true, John, because you get off that transport, and you know you meet all the fosters. For me, we meet all the fosters, and I have to remind myself that this is so special for them that this is their. I'm on autopilot by that point. That I have to stop and and take in how special it is for us, for the dogs, and for the fosters. That it's all new, and balance that with the fact that I just want to lie in my bed with my own two dogs and sleep for four days, because right you have such a it is it's it yeah it's a mix. Rescue is a mix of emotions if you want to use the word rescue. Yeah, yeah.

John Ramer  37:36  
So Mel, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I'm going to ask you the most leading question that I can possibly think. Laurie touched on a little bit about legislation and changing laws, and I'm curious your opinion on this as somebody that's spent so much time talking with researchers and scientists, and being aware, and whether directly or indirectly involved in in what happens in D.C. up on Capitol Hill, and and like the FDA Modernization Act and Violet's Law and all of that stuff. There's obviously a huge movement right now to shut down all of these large breeding facilities. It seems to be the focus of at least my social media feed, and I personally worry about that a little bit because if we if we shut down all of the the large industrial ones, I I can't help but to feel that that creates a void for smaller, lesser regulated breeders to jump in and try and cash in on on the the void left behind. Yeah, you mean

Melanie Kaplan  39:02  
you mean less regulated species,

John Ramer  39:05  
less regulated breeding facilities, facilities, yeah, where where they see that now now the Ridgeland and Invigo are are empty. There's obviously the possibility of a void of 10,000 beagles that could be sold to research and people wanting to jump in and start breeding beagles themselves and selling them off and and cashing in on it, and then after reading your book and seeing Stephen's film The new gold standard. I I see these amazing advances in science and non animal methods, and I still hear the old school scientists saying that this is the the most widely accepted way and the the quickest way to fast track. Study through the FDA is to do it in a way that gives them familiar results, and then I hear about all of the laws that are going to potentially be written for mandatory animal retirement, or you know Justin Goodman and White Coat Waste Project and their their very intense campaign against the NIH and Fauci and all of that. Where do you see, in your opinion, the most effective vehicle for change in in raising awareness because I I personally feel like it good science would be embracing all of the non animal methods and the advancements on it and I talk with people from like NABS National Anti-Vivisection Society, and they they tell me that there's a lot of scientists that feel like they should be able to be more public about the work that they're doing and why it's mandatory to test on animals and how they want to justify it, and then I talk with people in the industry that tell me that they can't be public about it because number one, public outrage; number two, intellectual property that needs protected. And all all arguments are very valid to the people making them, but it's also a little overwhelming and confusing on how to change such an industrial complex.

Melanie Kaplan  41:43  
So you're asking about the most important thing to increase public awareness or to actually make change.

John Ramer  41:51  
Actually make change.

Melanie Kaplan  41:53  
Okay. What

John Ramer  41:53  
What do you think would be the most effective vehicle to evolve the entire methodology away from animals is it to change laws? Is it to financially incentivize alternatives? Where where do you see the most effective part of it?

Melanie Kaplan  42:10  
Remind people, I'm not a scientist. I'm I'm a journalist, and there's a lot I still don't understand about about the science and about the research and about the testing, but it seems to me that laws are probably the most important thing. This is why, like you and I, spoke at the University of Denver at the law school, and I'm speaking to other law school classes and talking to people on the Hill. But I love what the state of Maryland has done. So they've actually created a fund that labs pay into, and that money goes toward the development of alternatives. So you know, I think that turning the current system on its head right now, animals are the gold standard. Let's make animals the exception. If a researcher absolutely feels like he or she needs to do needs to use an animal for something, it's going to cost. I mean, there's going to be. I know the word tax is a very charged word here in Washington, but you know, there's going to be some tax on that. It's going to be expensive. It's going to be the exception rather than this is where we go automatically, because the new gold standard is the non-AML methods, and we need to be training all of our young people, making sure that there's widespread, you know, education and understanding of what these methods are, making sure that labs have access to them, and you know this is a really long process. Somebody was talking about, you know, an innovator making a non-animal method and feeling really great about it, but then it's like, oh, the pharmaceutical companies can't actually use that because X, Y, Z. So you know, making sure that these startup companies are creating things that the industry can and will use, and that you know can be scaled up, and you know, so there's there's a lot of probably you know startup type challenges with these NAMs, the non animal methods. So obviously, there's a lot of ways to come at this. You know, White Coast talks a lot about just cutting the funding from the beginning and making sure that NIH isn't giving out these grants for more more animal research. And then there's the legal side and there's the consumer side and educating people. But if I had to pick one, I I think that laws are probably going to make the biggest change because the way that labs are regulated today and really have a lot of freedom to you know purchase animals, use animals, kill animals, really whatever they want. If they can justify it in their protocol, that I don't see changing until the laws change.

John Ramer  45:09  
I agree. I

Lori Cohen  45:09  
agree. I agree. And and and also, I'll take it a step further because we know that there's anti cruelty laws, and those have been breached, and therefore the laws mean nothing without the enforcement of the laws. They must be enforced. They cannot just be theoretically on paper until somebody challenges them. They there has to be enforcement and repercussion.

John Ramer  45:33  
I I don't know what it is like in in Canada, so I'm not going to speak to. I don't either. I I know, I know in the states that in order to enforce the laws, you also have to have the budget to enforce the laws.

Melanie Kaplan  45:52  
Yes,

John Ramer  45:52  
and that that seems to be something that is consistently not made a priority over and over and over again. Yeah,

Lori Cohen  46:04  
and again, that's exactly why I I do I like to you know when doing speaking events or or doing any kind of advocacy, it must be acknowledged that this is a societal issue. It it does not stop at simple animal welfare issue. It's a societal issue.

Melanie Kaplan  46:25  
I mean, that's that's the point I make at the end of the book. Is we are we are all culpable. We all support this society in some way or another, and you know, this is all of us deciding that this is how we want to be. We could just as easily be a society that didn't use animals and didn't consume as much as we do, and didn't need the latest and greatest drugs and treatments all the time, and we didn't need to have our lawns be perfectly green because of you know fertilizers and pesticides, and so yeah, I mean this is this is who we are.

John Ramer  47:01  
There can be no gatekeepers when we're all involved.

Lori Cohen  47:04  
Yeah, exactly. And no, and that's why shaming doesn't work because how how do you decide that one person is doing something better over another when it's a simple case of belief systems? And until we come together, and and I know that this is something we all talk about, and it's it's how it's how John and Chelsea and I came together in the spirit of collaboration and realizing that everyone has their own role, and and that could be said for all of society is that everyone has their role, but until we come together collaboratively and decide what kind of values we want reflected among ourselves and among our governments that nothing will change, and and people will just you know flip on Netflix. And you know, by the way, if the new gold standard hits Netflix, I encourage you to flip on Netflix. But you know what I mean. Sometimes you know there is a point when overwhelm is a thing, and we all just want to put our heads in the sand. But if we're going to make true societal change and and have what we deem is important, and animals and dogs specifically, as we talk about, are important in this society, and there has to be a collaboration in order to make long term change for those animals and for humanity, essentially. A

Chelsey Marino  48:25  
piece of this, obviously, you know, I say all the time, my role is completely different than the three of yours, right? I don't know a quarter of the information that you guys know about what's going on in research, and and that's not my place. And I think a lot of our listeners are, or a lot of our listeners have gone through something that I know myself, and I'm assuming Melanie, maybe the two of you have gone through, which is there was a point where we didn't know or we didn't think about animal testing. It's you know somewhere in the back of our heads that they put makeup on dogs or whatever, right? And then you know we meet a research beagle, and it flips our life upside down. And I know that happened for me. Obviously, Melanie, you weren't going into adopting or fostering Hammy with the intention of it would become what it has become, and a lot of our listeners, I would say, all of the clients that I work with, the fosters and adopters of research beagles, have lived most of their lives with this not in the forefront of their mind, and then one dog changes that for them, and now it is the forefront of most of what they do every day, and that in itself is a role to play in this change. You know, there are tons of people out there who feel compelled to do something because they have connected with this dog or see themselves in their own dog, and just having fun. And having adopters and having people who share stories on Facebook or Instagram, you know that in itself just pushes it pushes this narrative further that we don't all have to go out and change laws. We don't all have to go out and you know protest or even we don't all have to adopt. But just getting this to the front of our heads is such a bigger step than has ever been there in the past five years. You know, it was so hidden in society and in our own brains, just because it's painful to think about. That now people are thinking about, and now people are talking about it, and and that's a place where good change is going to start to happen for sure.

Lori Cohen  50:42  
Agreed. There's hope. There's a lot of hope out there. Melanie, what what would you like to say to Hammy today?

Melanie Kaplan  50:51  
Oh, you are going to make me cry, aren't you?

Chelsey Marino  50:54  
I would say, Hammy, look at mom. Look at how gracious. I would say that too. But but if you

Lori Cohen  50:58  
could look in Hammy's face and say something to him. Just one last thing. What would it be? Oh, Laura, you're killing me. You know, I would probably offer him a whole jar of peanut butter because that would make him happiest. I mean, some days I think to myself, you know, if I could just look in trouble, my beagle's eyes. What would I say before my full belief system that I'll see him in heaven? Of course, because I must. You know, I try to think about that. So I am putting you on the spot. But is there anything specific that you would just say to Hammy after the book, after the people you've met, the dogs you've met, everything, and and the change that he's walked beside you with throughout.

Melanie Kaplan  51:46  
You know, I mean, I I told him this so many times, and I told him this in the book, and I would probably just thank him again and tell him how much I loved him because he really he did inspire me, and I think he's inspired some others and brought this story out into the world, and and it wouldn't be there without him. So he's changed me. Is

Chelsey Marino  52:11  
there ever times going through this writing the book and promoting the book and you know coming on podcasts where a small part of you thinks I didn't have to deal with this pain every single day. Talking about Hammy and reliving all of these things and learning everything that I learned-it's obviously changed your life. And assuming it's very emotionally taxing sometimes, I can't imagine my dog passing and having to relive that every single day. So, is there ever a part of you that a little bit of a little piece makes you think, you know, maybe I maybe I didn't have to do this. Maybe it's too hard. Or do you just feel this is your responsibility and you have to do it, no matter how hard it is, or closer to Hammy, or because of it, yeah, or closer to Hammy because of it. Do you stay close to him also? Sorry, Chelsea, I'm going to add to that though. Yeah, and that's true. Do you stay close to closer, good or bad for for healing? You know.

Melanie Kaplan  53:14  
Yeah. No. You know. Fortunately, I had I had a little grace period between the time that I lost him and when the book came out, so it wasn't that fresh. I mean, obviously, I wrote about it, and then there was close to a year of editing the book and the production, and so no, I I cherish the time. I have never thought I don't want to be doing this, partly because I get to keep talking about him and telling his story, and that does bring me closer to him, and keeps him, you know, just top of mind for me always in in a really special way, and and also a big reason that I wrote the book is to get the word out and shine the light and bring this into the light. And so, the more you know, I know that the more I talk about it, the more people know about this, the more discussions we have, and it becomes part of conversations. And and that's just important for me as as a journalist who's created something. You know, I want I want to see it out in the world. It's an honor, and I know you know. I feel incredibly lucky to have a book that that was published. And you know, like I said at the beginning, I'm just riding the wave as long as I can.

Lori Cohen  54:37  
Yeah,

John Ramer  54:37  
I apologize for the commotion on my end. I just needed to remind the people that view this on YouTube that my dogs are alive and that they don't like dogs,

Lori Cohen  54:48  
and not just fixtures behind you. Not not just fixtures,

John Ramer  54:52  
Mel. Do you have any questions for any of us?

Melanie Kaplan  54:56  
Oh my gosh! I think we need to do another another round of this. I have so many questions for you.

John Ramer  55:03  
The the journalist in you shines through.

Melanie Kaplan  55:06  
Yeah, I have never not had a question. Let's see. All right. Well, I have a completely unrelated question for each of you. What fun thing are you going to do for the rest of the summer,

John Ramer  55:21  
I I just recently scheduled and committed to the intake of 66 dogs and 14 pigs. Wow, is

Lori Cohen  55:32  
that your fun thing, John? Or that that is my personal fun

John Ramer  55:35  
thing. My fun thing I shared with all of you before recording is that I'm treating my wife to a trip to Hawaii, but that's not until December. Amazing! But you're going

Melanie Kaplan  55:46  
to be looking forward to it this summer. So that'll

John Ramer  55:48  
it'll make all of the the work with the 66 dogs and 14 pigs worth it.

Melanie Kaplan  55:53  
That's awesome.

Lori Cohen  55:54  
I don't know if I have a fun thing for the summer. However, my niece is living with me now, and she's 14, so I have to do. I am forced to do fun things now, which is awesome. But I am have to say, in in terms of the lines of John, is my big excitement was planning this Canadian premiere of Stephen's film for the fall now. So that is my fun thing because I'm really excited now. That's that's going to be

John Ramer  56:22  
awesome.

Lori Cohen  56:22  
Yeah, I'm excited.

Chelsey Marino  56:24  
My fun thing is, I feel like since the new year, there have been so many things in Dog World that have been happening, and I have been traveling to Kindness and then traveling to DC, and you know, doing all these things with you know with Ridgeland closing, we're getting a ton of new fosters and adopters, and I have just had my head in the sand, just in Beagle World, and I did just get back from a two week vacation from Japan, and that was fun. But the fun thing, which is crazy, that I'm looking forward to, is doing nothing. Like I am kind of excited for nothing for the next couple of months, and just stability, and you know, not that there's no excitement, but I, I am an inside cat, and I like to be home and comfortable, and you know, stable. So hopefully, the rest of my summer is a little bit like that. Yeah, that

Melanie Kaplan  57:22  
sounds awesome. 

Lori Cohen  57:23  
My relaxation is home renovation, so if I can squeeze in home renos, then I'm the happiest person in the world. I just love home renovations. We're the same. We like call each other sometimes. We're like, you know, if I didn't have enough to do, I decided I was going to paint my bedroom. Yeah, I'm like, I'm starting my stairs. I don't know what I'm thinking, Chelsea. Yeah,

Melanie Kaplan  57:43  
it's funny how we all relax. Yeah, yeah.

Lori Cohen  57:46  
And then I posted Melanie. You text me because I or you messaged or something on social because I posted the new because one day I just woke up and decided that it's done. I have to do the back of my wood stove and make it look prettier. So I'm like I have to do this today. I'm doing it today. You guys bringing that

John Ramer  58:03  
up has totally just reminded me that Katie and I have found the home that we're going to have put on the property for us. So I was

Chelsey Marino  58:12  
wondering if you were going to say something about your house. I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to say it if he's not going to bring it up. But yeah, like that's exciting. 

Lori Cohen  58:19  
You do you have a picture? Brenda's going to lose it. She was asking Katie 100 times.

John Ramer  58:23  
I'll I'll send you a picture of it. Oh, is this a kit?

John Ramer  58:27  
It's a modular home that we're having put on the property, three bedroom, two bathroom, and we're we were able to customize it to where it's a two bedroom, and they're they're making the third bedroom into a functional home office,

Lori Cohen  58:43  
excellent.

John Ramer  58:43  
Yeah, we're we're really excited about that, and I finally get my my dream of being completely solar and off grid, so we don't have to worry about the the terrible power connections in our application anymore. So I'm I'm pretty excited about that.

Melanie Kaplan  59:00  
So what will happen to their ranch house?

John Ramer  59:02  
We are big enough now with five full-time admin staff that the ranch house will be our our main office and adoption center. Since it's already got a full fenced, secure front yard, we'll be able to do adoptions and meet and greets out of the the main office. Yeah, it's going to work. Well, I can't wait to

Melanie Kaplan  59:25  
get back there and see all the changes.

John Ramer  59:28  
You you need to come sooner than later because we're changing too fast out here, and I've got to get you some pig time. Yeah, they're so cute. Our pigs are amazing. All right,

Melanie Kaplan  59:40  
one of these days I will get out for some pig time. I promise. They're so cute.

Chelsey Marino  59:43  
We have to mention the pigs every episode because they're they are so cute and they're they're funny. They're funny and and they're adoptable for anyone listening. Exactly,

John Ramer  59:54  
they are adoptable. Yeah, we've been having a lot of fun. We bought a half dozen. And little kiddie wading pools, and we fill them. We fill them with chopped up watermelon and peanuts. And oh my god, it's 100 pounds. That's like a dream. That's hilarious. We let the the pigs just jump right into the little wading pools, and they bob for peanuts and watermelon slices. Oh, you

Lori Cohen  1:00:22  
better video that, John. Oh, yeah. We got

John Ramer  1:00:25  
three hours of video. Yeah, that is the cutest. Yeah, it's it'll be on our side soon. We've been love it with all of the youth camps that we have on site right now. We've been letting them spend an awful lot of time with the pigs, and we've got a handful of them that are walking on harnesses, they sit for treats and they they know their names. I

Chelsey Marino  1:00:45  
think pigs are easy to train. They're they're very intelligent. They're very smart. Yeah, they are. They don't negotiate as much as dogs, especially beagles. I would say. Yeah. Well, beagles are crafty. Yeah. Yeah, they're crafty. They're great salesmen. And and pigs, you know, they they kind of just okay I'll sit if you have food. This is just my

Lori Cohen  1:01:05  
favorite part of the pig is just taking my palm and lightly hitting that adorable wet little flat snout. I'm in love with it. I can't.

Chelsey Marino  1:01:14  
My favorite part's the belly rubs.

Lori Cohen  1:01:17  
No, I just love that little snout and then it moves like it moves on your hand because it's like checking you out. I can't deal. There's something,

John Ramer  1:01:24  
and there's something about the sound of a pig eating that is the most relaxing thing in the world for me. But I, I, I can't stand it when I hear people chew their food. But there's there's just something about it when a pig looks at you and they're smiling and they're smacking their food and and like vegetables are falling out of their mouth, it just makes me so stinking happy. That's so funny. It's incredible. That's how I feel with dogs

Chelsey Marino  1:01:51  
when I give them something crunchy and they just like

Lori Cohen  1:01:54  
and they're in love with me. I'm like, I could listen to that

Chelsey Marino  1:01:56  
all day.

Lori Cohen  1:01:56  
Yeah, it's so funny what we tolerate in animals, but if a human looks at us sideways. We're all like, "What's your problem? 

Melanie Kaplan  1:02:04  
Yeah, chew, chewquieter, please.

Lori Cohen  1:02:06  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't you clean up after yourself? Oh, but my dog can pee all over and be. It's all okay. 

Melanie Kaplan  1:02:12  
Yeah.

John Ramer  1:02:14  
Melanie, do you have any upcoming signings or any promotions coming up? You want to throw out your socials for people to find you now that you've been forced to be on social media.

Melanie Kaplan  1:02:25  
Forced, yes. So on Instagram, you can find me at Labdog Hammy, and Facebook it's Melanie D G Kaplan. You can also go to my website, which is Melanie D G caplan.com, and link to all the socials and see the upcoming events. Which the next exciting one is Tafa, which is Taking Action for Animals, which is Humane World for Animals conference here in DC next weekend. So I'll be speaking on Saturday and signing books and and then the events kind of pick up again in the fall. So I've got a few things scheduled, and hopefully adding some more, including Toronto.

John Ramer  1:03:12  
All of your successes are so well deserved, and I I don't think I speak for just myself when I say how proud of you we all are, and so grateful that somebody like you is is becoming a spokesperson for animals in research. And thank you, absolutely, very very much,

Melanie Kaplan  1:03:33  
John. Thank you so much. And you know, I'm just in awe of the work that all all three of you do. And I'm so happy to have you in my life, and just having these conversations, and I hope we can do it again.

John Ramer  1:03:47  
Thanks for listening to Dogs Beyond the Lab. For more, including comments, feedback, and ways to get in touch with our hosts, go to beyond the lab. Dog.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:03:57  
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