Cody Chomiak: Human Rights and AI

Stuart Murray  00:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji, Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the matthi nation.

 

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  00:19

This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

 

Stuart Murray  00:31

artificial intelligence, AI is changing the world before our eyes, we now carry systems powered by AI in our pockets. Wear them on our wrists. Vehicles in the market can now drive themselves. Diagnostic systems determine what is ailing us, and risk assessment algorithms increasingly decide whether we are jailed or set free after being charged with a crime. The promise of AI to improve our lives is enormous. AI based systems are already outperforming medical specialists in diagnosing certain diseases, while the use of AI in the financial system is expanding access to credit to borrowers that were once passed by automated hiring systems promise to evaluate job candidates on the basis of their bona fide qualifications, rather than on qualities such as age or appearance that often lead human decision makers astray. Ai promises to allow institutions to do more while spending less, with concomitant benefits for the availability and accessibility of all kinds of services. Yet AI also has downsides that dampen its considerable promise. Foremost among these is the AI systems depend on the generation, collection, storage, analysis and the use of vast quantities of data with corresponding impacts on the right to privacy. AI techniques can be used to discover some of our most intimate secrets by drawing profound correlations out of seemingly innocuous bits of data. Well, that's a bit of an introduction. But more to the point, I'm joined by somebody who has a very, very interesting background on AI. My guest is Cody chomiak. He's the Vice President of Marketing for travel Manitoba, and Cody is an industry leader in blending marketing innovation with emerging technologies as Vice President of Marketing for travel Manitoba, he developed strategies that position Manitoba as a premier destination on the global stage now beyond his role in destination marketing, Cody serves on the board of destinations International and is an instructor in The Certified Destination Management Executive Program, also known as cdme, and that shapes the future of tourism leadership. Cody is also a recognized voice in the field of artificial intelligence, speaking across Canada and the United States about AI's impact on tourism and marketing as a member of destination Canada's 10x group, he collaborates with AI thought leaders to explore cutting edge advancements and ethical considerations within the industry. His insights and experience provide a unique perspective at the intersection of AI marketing and tourism Cody. Before we get into this conversation, I just wanted to sort of throw this comment by world renowned English theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking, who said, AI is likely to be either the best or the worst thing to happen to humanity. All of that said. Cody chomiak, welcome to humans on rights.

 

Speaker 1  03:36

Thank you so much for having me. And I think that is a fantastic quote to set the stage and start our conversation. I think the answer to that question we will all find out. I'm hoping and gunning for the former and not the latter, the positive and not the negative. I think we're going to see a combination of both. I think what is happening with AI that is different from any other technology that's out there is it's affecting all of us, every sector and every person on this planet. So I've thought leaders have compared artificial intelligence to electricity, and we can't think of artificial intelligence as adopting tech. This isn't learning a new CRM system. This is literally electricity that's going to be in absolutely everything that we do. So we are at a fundamental transformation as a human species of how we are changing our behaviors, how we're interacting with each other, and how we're interacting now with artificial intelligence, with machines, and how they become more human like but also more influential in what runs everything around the globe. So

 

Stuart Murray  04:44

Cody one of the challenges when you talk about artificial intelligence, or when you read about it, there are tons of benefits, and we can talk about those benefits, but can you teach artificial intelligence to understand the difference between kindness and. Being rude 100%

 

Speaker 1  05:01

yes, you can. Artificial Intelligence is extremely good at analyzing just massive amounts of data and and making patterns, identifying patterns, identifying interesting outcomes, and using that to learn and actually, but it's all on how artificial intelligence is prompted. And so the challenge that we have is that AI everybody thinks of, or at least I think of, because I'm a sci fi nerd, I think of Terminator two and sky net, right? And this were the matrix. AI really doesn't have an agenda. It doesn't have an emotion in terms of racism or, you know, fear or hatred. That's the challenge is that it is completely neutral, but it is relying on solely the ecosystem that it is learning on. And so when you look at, for example, Kodak cameras, when Kodak cameras were invented, they were calibrated to actually photograph light skinned people, and it was not dark skinned or black people that worked with Kodak cameras to change the calibration. It was actually the chocolate companies, and they said, We want a better photograph milk and dark chocolate. So what is important to understand is we've had this inherent bias in our world, in our society, in our history, and that inherent bias has followed us along the way, and it's been baked into all of these systems, and technology is one of them. The difference is that we are on this inflection point now where we're taking all of these biases and giving it to a technology like artificial intelligence, but giving it the autonomy to make those decisions and actually carry out decisions. And that's where it's a very scary intersection right now, because, you know, there's an amazing thought leader in the space Dr Joy buolamwini. She has a book called AI unmasking AI, and she was really one of the first individuals to uncover this bias, and she was working with a project in her education for a thesis, and it was a facial recognition piece with a mirror. And so she was using a lot of code that was already out in the marketplace, and it wasn't recognizing her face. And then she drew a smiley face on the palm of her hand, and she dragged it across the camera, and it tracked it, and she had a Halloween mask on, like she at the side of her desk. She put that mask on, and it recognized the mask, but it didn't recognize her face. And so what she uncovered is we have a technology that's very much reliant on facial recognition in so many systems, right facial recognition in airports, facial recognition for weapons, autonomous driving, even facial recognition to unlock the door at an apartment to let you in. But if that technology doesn't recognize all humans as human that's a huge issue. And so she was able to alert Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, all of these major tech giants. Ironically, Microsoft, they invited her in. Amazon actually threatened to sue her. So it's a very tumultuous landscape that we're navigating right now, as you're dealing with World Governments this fast evolving technology, and it's it's so rapidly evolving, and the consequences are so far wide reaching that we can't even understand the impacts. And you know, when you look at transformation over time, it took, you know, 10 years for Netflix to get 100 million users, it took two months for chat GPT to reach 100 million users. And we're I, you know, very appropriately on this podcast, we're approaching the at the time of this taping, a two year anniversary since chat GPT has been released. So when you're looking at transformation and over human kind, this is the fastest transformational landscape that is impacting every sector, every facet of our society. And so to understand the far reaching impacts, we don't even know what, what that's going to do, I now put myself to sleep at night saying we have thought leaders in this space who are identifying this work. I think we're starting to see governments waking up. We're seeing groups of individuals that are organizing and putting together policies in place to help navigate this. But I think what's exciting is the opportunity we have to leverage artificial intelligence for good. And so what I champion is ethical artificial intelligence and the people who are scared about what's happening, I say we should all be scared. I'm right there with you. I'm trying to jump into the ring to see, is there an opportunity for me to learn about it, to understand what the pitfalls are, but maybe have a help and a role in helping to shape at least how we're our organization is using it, how our industry is using it, and. Hopefully, how we can educate others and our governments on how to properly use it the

 

Stuart Murray  10:04

two years is just stunning, right? When you think about how new it is, yet, how it's become a very much a part of everyday life. And I love your enthusiasm. I love the fact that you know you're so positive, and I'm I'm with you. I hope that this thing becomes such an incredible benefit to society on so many levels that we'll simply look back and go, where was it? How come we didn't go sooner? Having said all that, Cody, if artificial intelligence is baked by basically the information that's fed into it, there will be those that will want to feed information that is not necessarily accurate for reasons that may impact their business or may impact their opportunity. Or for example, this isn't a conversation or a podcast about politics, but, for example, there could be some things that get brought forward. And so if somebody is relying on the artificial intelligence banner to get them the information, they're not necessarily guaranteed that what they're getting is accurate. I

 

Speaker 1  11:04

completely agree. I think the positive spin to that slant is that this isn't new. So when you look at the internet and the early days of the Internet, search engine optimization was a really easy way for people to gain the system so that their web page and their website would show up at the very top of all of these different searches, and they were able to, to some large extent, in many cases, manipulate when their site would show up and also manipulate the information that's being shared. And it's the same with these large language models like a chat GPT or a cloud, or, you know, there's perplexity, AI, there's a ton of different tools out there. I think the difference is, and my my hope is, is that these tools are, are being trained on massive amounts of data. And as we go forward in time, what we need to do is make sure that we're working with the engineers of these large language models to bake in guard rails so that it's fact checking these biases, and it's also fact checking the information to make sure that it's serving up information that's accurate. Now the challenge to that piece, we're entering an age of misinformation, of disinformation and of deep fakes, and it has never been easier to create artificial information at a scale of which we have never seen before. And it isn't just in politics or in major rings. There was a principal who was investigated because of an audio tape that came out about the principal saying slanderous and racist things. But when that investigation actually went through, it was uncovered that the gym teacher used generative AI to create a fake audio recording of that principle as a way to get the principal out, because the principal was actually investigating the gym teacher for a number of fraud and allegations within the school. And why I bring that up is this isn't a sophisticated government or super PAC this isn't a fortune 500 company. This isn't even, you know a computer hacker, this is a gym teacher who had access to these tools and was able to create something in real time that was potentially disruptive and destructive to an individual's career and life. Now, it ended up in a good news story in the end, but I think that's what's going to happen. Is we are, we are at an age now where we need to be smarter than ever, and that's why it's so important to educate yourself in what is happening in AI, the downfalls and pitfalls what AI is not good at, what AI is good at, and also how you can protect protect yourself from misinformation. You know, it's important that we're using these large language models, chat, GPT and other to ask for different things, but it's always important to double check your sources.

 

Stuart Murray  14:08

So on that basis, Cody, if you think about people that you know, just say they went on the internet and they put something in and the information comes back. Is not necessarily accurate, but you know, they're not going to go to that next level. They just sort of take it verbatim, that that's what it is, and they go down their their their path, and that's how they've been educated on that specific issue. How might somebody start to educate themselves on learning to ensure that they can start to trust what it is that's coming or what they're reading? What steps might they take to do that, I would

 

Speaker 1  14:42

say, first and foremost, it's understanding how these large language models work. And there are some great tutorials that are out there. One thought leader that we've worked with with Destination Canada is called Connor grenin, and he leads the NYU Stern School of Business AI program. He has an. Amazing quick start guide that will walk you through how to actually do a prompt. What would you ask? How would you double check these things? How do these large language models work? It's really important for people to understand that AI and large language models specifically, is not Google, it's not a replacement for search, it's not a replacement for research, but it's so much more than that. So understanding that duality is very important. If I'm doing a research paper and I need to cite sources, I might start with a chat GPT, but I'm going to go and check each and every one of those sources on the Internet to make sure that it's accurate. Now that's very different in a use case than me working with chat GPT to say, you know, I've got a colleague of mine I need to provide feedback for and I want to make sure that the feedback I provide is thoughtful and not emotionally charged. So I'm going to use chat GPT to say, here's what I'm dealing with, here's what I'm unhappy with. Can you help me word this in such a way that I can have a really appropriate conversation that's thoughtful, that, to me, is one of the best use cases of artificial intelligence that you can use or loading up a job description that you're hiring for, and say, hey, you know, we're in the tourism space, we're looking at this new position for Francophone tourism marketing. Do you know that any are there any blind spots in the job description? Are there ways that we can enhance it, change it? The thought leadership that this LLM will come back with is staggering. So I think when you understand how these tools can enhance your everyday it is literally like having a co worker that sits right beside you that you can talk to about anything, and it helps you to provide advice. What it's not is a factual, you know, 100% correct piece, which is why, you know, Google famously rolled out their Google Gemini, and people were asking, How do I get my daily minerals? And the the LLM was spitting back, you should eat rocks every day, because it was sourcing a thread on Reddit, and it didn't understand, you know? So I always say, AI is a co pilot, not an autopilot and so when you can understand the distinction, I can still use it. I can use it as a powerful brainstorming tool. I can use it to say, pull out the the themes and the main takeaways from these meeting notes. I can go and say to it, you know, what did Fran say that I need to do in the next meeting? I can say to it, I'm stressed out today, or, Hey, I've got these five things in my refrigerator. What can I make for dinner? Like there's so many different ways to use it that are not radical or are not putting people's rights or groups at risk,

 

Stuart Murray  17:54

right? So you use the the acronym, LLM, yes,

 

Speaker 1  17:58

large language model. So large language models, for those that don't know, artificial intelligence, has been around for 40 plus years, so it is not new. The difference is, is that we had analytical intelligence and then generative artificial intelligence. And generative artificial intelligence is what is happening right now that we're hearing about. So that's the chat gpts. That's these large language models. And what that is, is what they do is they pour over vast amounts of data, and they're able to use machine learning to then compile this information and generate new content in the form of a query as a response to a prompt. So when I say a large language model, I'm talking about chat, GPT, perplexity, AI cloud, Gemini, there's quite a few out there, and those are systems where you type in and ask and then you get back a phrase, or it helps you with a task. Apple intelligence rolled out with their enhanced series, so she's actually, you know, much more useful now that's using chat gpts, LLM or large language models. So that's, that's what I mean when I'm saying those tools, and those are the tools that consumers are most familiar with. Analytical AI has been around. You know, the easiest example is when you're on Google Maps and it gives you three different routes, and it says this is the shortest route based on traffic. That's analytical AI, right? So it's it's poring over that information, and it's giving you results in real time. But it's not inherently creating a product. And generative AI creates images, videos, audio, text, all sorts of things, voice, you name it.

 

Stuart Murray  19:39

So you speak a lot about artificial intelligence, both in Canada, the United States. You know, in two years, what would be one or two things that you would say, here's what we're finding is trending that is really particularly building on what you're talking about, the benefits of artificial intelligence. You're seeing things that are. Trending in a way that are saying, I know this is for good. I know this is going to make a difference. Oh,

 

Speaker 1  20:05

absolutely. There's so many amazing applications. I think when you look at the area of enhanced accessibility and inclusion, I was at the TED event in April of earlier this year, and there was a gentleman from Japan who was speaking into the microphone in Mandarin, and in the speakers of the auditorium, it was translating it in his voice in English, even with an accent. So he would tell a joke, and a half a second later, we would all hear it in English. So when you're looking at especially in travel and human connections, language is one of the biggest barriers, and AI is helping to give real time translation to break down those barriers. Now someone can ask a question in their first language that can be parroted out to a multitude of other languages to the person that you're speaking to. You can now engage actively in conversations when you're looking at inclusivity technology, like being able to use voice recordings and tell people with visual impairments what's happening on the screen, what's even happening in front of them. With Google Glasses, you can have a visually impaired person now hold up a sign and say, What does this sign say? And the glasses will read it to them, they will be able to navigate and way find throughout the city. There is even now with Elon Musk's new brain implant, there is a gentleman that has paralysis that's able to control a computer with his mind and play a video game as effectively as before he had the mobile impairedness. So the that's, I think, one of the most exciting applications that I'm seeing. I would say broadly, I would say advancements in healthcare would be the second piece. We were able to unlock all 200 million protein structures in one year using AI, and we were not able to get anywhere near that in the history of medical science, those protein structures are the makeup of all human life, and so that's been given over the broader medical community. So we are on the cusp of an AI revolution that is going to allow for a much more personalized health care. It's going to be we're going to be seeing cures for diseases. We're going to be seeing more information and knowledge sharing on a one to one basis. I can now have an artificial intelligence assistant that's going to tailor my diet plan to me, that's going to tell me when I'm stressed, that's going to tell me when my blood pressure is high, that's going to take readings at a regular basis. All of these things are going to help, I think, bring what I would consider as more of a luxurious developed world, right and privilege to everyone around the world. And I think that's what when we look at all of those pieces, I would say those top themes would be the most near term and impactful to our everyday

 

Stuart Murray  23:00

amazing. So can't let, can't let the conversation about Elon Musk just go. He, of course, is in the news constantly these days. I wasn't aware of that product that Elon Musk has done, but is this something that he obviously has worked with a medical institution to advance, or tell us just a little bit about that, because it's, that's pretty fascinating. Yeah, so

 

Speaker 1  23:22

it's one of the projects, and I don't, I don't know the exact specifics, you'll have to Google it, but if you Google Elon Musk brain implant, it'll come up. But he's definitely affiliated with it, and it's one of his many, you know, ventures. He would obviously not be the one directly implanting this chip into this individual, but, you know, they had a rigorous volunteer, and it was a pilot that has been extremely successful. And you know, that is going to be, I think we're going to be seeing more and more of that by 2030 Experts are predicting that our brains will be connected to the cloud, so that may look like a brain implant chip that may look like, you know, buds that you stick into your ear. And you know, that certainly scares me. But I think from a purely, you know, hey, if I can't move and I lost the use of my limbs, the fact that I can use a computer and and even I can use it to speak, I can use it to navigate, I can use it to give myself personal autonomy, which I think is something that certainly people with disabilities can have challenges with,

 

Stuart Murray  24:26

for sure, and I guess Cody, as we advance all of this, it becomes more and more affordable. Because, you know, for example, you think about somebody who is a paraplegic who has to wait in a certain spot to have transit come and pick them up. Hopefully, there's no snow banks that they have got to go through. So all of these elements that that are in place, but they are barriers absolutely so you then sort of look at somebody and say, you can have your own driverless vehicle, you know, at your doorstep. And

 

Speaker 1  24:55

we haven't even talked about robots, right? And cyborgs, that's, that's the next big thing. And if. Course, I think of Terminator two when we talk cyborgs, but what I actually mean is there's AI systems that are in robotic forms that have helped people be able to actually use their legs again, because it actually makes the spine speak to the brain and allows you to walk freely. So in some cases, being a cyborg doesn't mean, you know, taking your brain and implanting it into a robot, necessarily, but it is having an artificial limb that you're able to actually control, whether you can open and close the hand with your thoughts, or controlling a computer with your thoughts. And couple that with robots that can navigate the physical landscape, that can help, for example, elderly people, you know, get up and sit down. We have autonomous vehicles that can now you don't have to worry about parking, because they can drop you off and drive themselves home. So there's all these things that are going to drastically change the world that we live in. And I think as scary as that is in a lot of instances, we have to be prepared as humanity, because this change is coming very quickly. So it's up to us to really lean in with these thought leaders, do as much work as we can in the spaces and places that we're in, to educate ourselves and just understand kind of what's coming so we can be better prepared.

 

Stuart Murray  26:16

So Cody, when you look at some of the conversations that are happening as this is kind of rapidly advancing, one of the two things I guess I'd love to get your thoughts on specifically, one is regulation. You know, how is it being regulated? And then just, you know, the ethics portion of artificial intelligence,

 

Speaker 1  26:33

those are two major areas to unpack, and extremely important. And I think regulation, all the governments around the world are grappling with this. I think we've seen a little more regulation in the EU than we have in North America. And at the same time, we're seeing a lack of regulation in other areas of the world, and there's this kind of speed up and slow down, right? And I you know, I think it was last year we saw some of the heads of the AI companies calling for a summer halt on AI because it's advancing too rapidly and too quickly. At the same time, there's this compounding fear that we also need to be the ones that are developing it first, so that it doesn't get in the hands of our enemies, and we need to be ahead of things like the cyber terrorists and other but regulation is going to be key. Regulation is going to also be key in making sure that we can manage our own privacy. And you know that lends itself into a whole host of things, because we're now seeing example of would be autonomous weapons, especially as it relates to on the borders of some of our countries that we're navigating and folks that are migrating to these other countries and are on those borders and are fleeing their homelands. They are the subject and test subjects of a lot of these autonomous technologies and autonomous weapons that are not taking into consideration their rights. And so we need regulations that can protect all people and all humans. We also need regulations that steer AI in the right direction, so that these AI systems are not prompted to teach someone how to build a bomb, that there's, you know, guardrails in place that when you ask that question, it will not give you that information. So that would be kind of a there's a lot to unpack there, and I've done probably a poor job of explaining it, but high level, those are some of the concerns. I would say, ethically, we are on a very dangerous path in terms of controlling, manipulating and protecting people's privacy. So we have a technology that has the ability, we've seen this through social media, with the algorithms, to have an extremely heightened understanding of not only psychology, but your own makeup, of what drives you, what enrages you, what makes you happy, what makes you fearful. So imagine having that technology and being able to deploy it on mass that is tailored for each individual, that is very challenging and scary. Then you look at some of the things that are happening in what we talked about, the brain, Chip, Apple, air pods, they have just done a patent that is investigating using your brain waves to read your thoughts, to use your thoughts to be able to control so imagine the scariness when you can read somebody's thoughts, when you can read somebody's face and Know their sexuality, know their political leaning, know their subconscious. I mean, these are huge ethical implications that are going to challenge the limits of our privacy, challenge the limits of our humanity. And at the same time, we have governments that are looking to advance in this space, and we have these major tech companies that do have a private sector interest, that are also competing in this space. And so how do we make sure that we're holding these, these massive bodies accountable, so that we're not exploiting our own privacy at the whim of everybody's free

 

Stuart Murray  29:55

will? Yeah, and I think the one challenge Cody with these. Conversations is that it is incumbent. I think that government would be the ones to look at where the regulations come. The challenge, I think, in today's society, is people view governments, different institutions that they don't trust them, and they've earned that reputation. So now, when you talk about trusting, you know, who's who do we trust to ensure that this artificial intelligence does have some guard rails on it? I mean, where does that trust factor come? And again, I'm I'm simply asking you, because I know you're so immersed in this, and if you sort of said, you know, we don't have an answer for that yet, I totally get that, and I would totally respect that, because there's so much happening. But I think when you start talking about things like trust, that starts to become another area where there's so much that can be gleaned from body language. Forget AI for a second when you're talking to somebody, you can get a sense, man, listen, dude's not interested in anything I have to say, or this is a great conversation. You know, it's animated. We can see our bodies moving. Artificial Intelligence doesn't have that ability that, least, I don't believe it does. And maybe it does, I don't know. But you know that issue around trust? Who do we trust to make sure that those guard lines or guardrails, I should say, are appropriately applied. Yeah, I

 

Speaker 1  31:23

think that's a great question, and one that, you know, I think we're going to have to find out the answers to. I don't have all the answers, but I think it does start with a conversation. And what I've seen is the most that we can do as a human race is to get ahead of this by talking about it, by understanding what those risks are and then raising those risks to the people that we hold accountable by voting them into office, by by holding the companies accountable that are in this race to generative in artificial intelligence, right? Or AGI, as it's referred to, artificial general intelligence is when AI is going to reach human level intelligence, it's incumbent on all of us to be having these conversations with the people in the spaces that we are in and the people that we trust. And so for me, it's diving into, you know, folks like Dr joy buolamwini, who's uncovering a lot of this stuff and bringing it to these heightened levels. It's working with, you know, the Connor Grenon at NYU. It's following various different podcasts with these experts and journalists that are in this space all the time. So it's, it's really trying to do the research to understand the people that you do trust, and then also who, who's in my sphere of influence, and how can I share this information? And so for us, you know, I want to make sure that our tourism industry in Manitoba is using this technology properly, right when we look at things like reconciliation, I want to make sure that we're moving forward in reconciliation and not back, right? So we as travel Manitoba have a role to play in helping to educate the industry, but also having a shape in how we can use this to advance reconciliation and to help, you know, lessen the divide, but to make sure that our industry holds up that same, you know, ethical mantra that we have piloted so I can't solve Everything today, and I certainly all I can do is, is continue to learn. But I think if all of us just looked at our sphere of influence and said, you know, who can we talk about this with? Who can we unpack this with? What are some things that were keeping us up at night? You know, that's really where the real change is going to happen.

 

Stuart Murray  33:36

So, Cody, you mentioned it, and I'm delighted you mentioned reconciliation. Because, you know, this is a human rights podcast that at some point we have to sort of go into that conversation. How would you see chat GPT or artificial intelligence? I'm going to put those in the same in the same umbrella. How would you see them advancing reconciliation in our society?

 

Speaker 1  33:59

I think it's going to do a lot to advance reconciliation. I look at first of all, the language and translation power that artificial intelligence has had. So we know there's many different indigenous languages across Canada that are, you know, not widely known to the general populace. So being able to add better translation meaning behind that is going to strengthen that, but also storytelling. So yes, AI can be inherently biased and it can give incorrect information. It can also be a huge advocate for good. So for example, travel, Manitoba has piloted its own LLM called guide geek, so it's a chat GPT for tourism, for Manitoba specifically, and we worked with the folks at guy geek to make sure that we're providing the proper protocols, that we're providing the respectful language, that if you're talking about what are indigenous experiences in tourism in Manitoba, that it's going to spit back authentic results, and it's also a safe. Base for people to ask questions, to say, Hey, I've never been to a powwow. Am I safe to go? What would that look like? And so it can provide that education piece in a safer space with someone that is providing them, maybe the courage or the knowledge to reach out. It also is a really great unifier, so it can identify thought leaders in the space. And when we look at organizations like indigenous industry to sorry iitc, indigenous Tourism Association of Canada, they are an amazing organization that's championing tourism for Canada in the indigenous reconciliation area. So how are they leveraging artificial intelligence to help share their stories and share their voices. And so it's, you know, we have a job to put data in, as much as the data that's already out there on the internet.

 

Stuart Murray  35:49

So just go back to emails, texting. I mean, some of the things that everybody's been using and everybody's aware of. I remember one of the things when we were building and really sort of looking at the journey that people would have when they came into the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, you know, we wanted it to be very technologically advanced. I mean, part of it was we didn't want to be artifact rich, because we didn't want to have, you know, objects that would come and go. We wanted to have the ability to as human rights is very, very organic and moving. And there's lots of things that happen, we wanted to be very proactive in that regard. And so technology was really the foundation of how we wanted that to happen, and that experience that we wanted people to get when they went into the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. But Cody, when you think about that experience, me think about as I said, just email and texting. The one thing we kept coming back to constantly was despite the ability and the advancement of technology, the best relationship is a conversation. How do you sort of see this advancement impacting that? Because conversation is really something that is still so human. And I just wonder how this advancement enhances that, or what is the risk, or how do we sort of manage that? It's

 

Speaker 1  37:06

definitely going to have both risks and advantages, I think, from a risk perspective. You know, we've seen this already with just social media and even tick tock and the pandemic, people are feeling more isolated and lonely than they ever have before, and younger generations are no different. And as as digital technology gets more hyper personalized, what that means is everything becomes individualized. And why that might not seem like a big deal. You know that water cool talk, cooler talk that we used to have about the finale of lost or, you know, the gray cup, those events are happening less and less, which means that people are not bonding over the same thing. So I think we have to really figure out, how do we maintain humanity within this behavioral shift as a society, and how do we make sure that those face to face conversations and meaningful connections are happening. I think on the positive side, you're looking at, you know, again, the translation piece, I can now have meaningful conversation with a colleague that doesn't speak my own language that you know would have been much more difficult previously. So barriers are being broken down. I'm also able to use artificial intelligence to help me learn in new ways and give me the confidence to go into new spaces. And also, I'm using artificial intelligence to become more human. So I think what artificial intelligence is good at, it's closing the gap between machine and human, which means that, you know, in the future, I don't need to know how to build a website. I can just talk to AI normally and say, hey, I want to build a website, or I want to do this. It'll build it for you, whereas before, you have to have all this coding knowledge. And so that gap is closing. And even down to, you know, podcasts notebook, LM, which is a new tool that Google piloted, is able to create generative podcasts using two large language model hosts, a male and a female host. And it's not meant to replace podcasts or human conversation, but it's meant to help people learn. So for example, I get a new vacuum, I could load that manual up and hit Generate podcast. It then does a podcast episode on how my vacuum works, so I can listen to a while on the treadmill. Maybe it's a different way of learning. So I think hopefully, what I'm what I'm imagining, and certainly, what I'm trying to do is use artificial intelligence to supercharge how I get my information, to free me up to have more meaningful interactions with people in the real world.

 

Stuart Murray  39:31

So when you look at the economics and people talk about, I'll just say, the three classes, you have people that are, you know, sort of on the poverty level, you have the middle class, then you have the ultimate rich people. The use of artificial intelligence, is it going to create more stratospheres of people who feel maybe they're just feeling less educated people that are highly more educated, more academic? Do you sort of see those elements as being problematic as we continue down? On this journey of trying to really understand how we can benefit from artificial intelligence.

 

Speaker 1  40:05

I mean, hugely. So first of all, what's the role of education? Right? So are people going to be educating their kids just to be better citizens? Because the need for education no longer is needed when you've got artificial intelligence doing everything that's that's a big fear of mine. And are we really learning anything if we just simply ask a question and get told exactly what it is in that moment? And we've seen this even with teachers now are struggling with, you know, essays and essays being written by chat GPT and so how do we balance teaching kids how to use valuable tools, because we all know how to use spreadsheets to do calculations for us, but we still learn fundamentals of math, right? So I think that's a that's a huge challenge. And then we have the class divide, which is just a global, worldwide phenomenon. Where is it going to be that the few companies at the very, very top hold all of the world's wealth, and that the rest of us are kind of missing out, and the disenfranchised become more disenfranchised. And even, you know, and this was where I was a bit concerned, as some of these leaders in the space were speaking at TED about this utopian future where we don't need to work anymore, and they talked about, well, we'll have universal basic income. And you know, the thing is, I appreciate looking at a future, but people need purpose. We all need a purpose on this planet, and that's what feeds our value and our happiness. And so if we don't need to work, then how do we transcend that sense of purpose into our everyday lives, and how do we make sure that people can learn how to do that? Because otherwise we're going to have a population of very bored, disenfranchised people. So that's very scary. That definitely keeps me up at night. And of course, the displacement of jobs, I mean, AI, is absolutely going to displace and disrupt jobs. And so, you know, my goal, also in self serving, is, I want to stay employed. I love working. I love my job, so I'm going to do everything I can to learn about artificial intelligence so I can be better at my job and better at upskilling other people. But we're going to, we're going to have to navigate that. And right now we don't know. I can't even predict where we're going to be at in two years. When I look at two years ago to today. I mean, we're talking about what our website is going to look like in two years, and if we even will need one. Those are huge conversations that have not happened since the invention of the iPhone, right? So, I mean, these are major consumer behavioral shifts that we're all grappling with in the world, and, you know, leaders are talking about it, and so I don't have the answer for that. I think that there are some major, major concerns and questions we have to answer, and I think it's incumbent on all of us to hold those tech leaders accountable and do not let them gloss over it. These are huge implications that affect the entire globe.

 

Stuart Murray  43:04

There's been so much that you have uncovered and so many great examples that you've been given. So thank you for that. I think it's really helpful when people are trying to navigate something that I mean, they're trying to learn. But examples are such a great way to learn, at least from my perspective. I think it's a great way to learn in the conferences that you've been at. I know you talked about healthcare being one of the areas that has been conversationalized, which is great is there been any sort of socialization Cody that you're aware of, that the topic of human rights is starting to find its way into some of these bigger conferences where people are getting together, and maybe there's a specific workshop in various areas. Are you aware of that element starting to become more part of that? AI or chat, GPT conversation?

 

Speaker 1  43:48

Yeah, I think in all the conferences that I'm at, there's kind of common themes that are related to human rights, so things like security, things like privacy, and also things like automation and so when we look at those key themes, you want to make sure that you're not putting your private information out there that's at risk. So first party data, and how are you certainly in the marketing space, how do we manipulate and use data? But from a technology standpoint, what are these tech companies doing with all of our data that we're that they're learning on right, and governments right, and all the facial recognition software that's out there. So that's one I think you know, security and and protocols, making sure that you have a policy in place as an organization because your employees are using it, so don't put your organization at risk. Make sure that people know how to use it, know how to use it properly, and also making sure that we're using it ethically. So when that automation piece comes in, what are you doing in automation? If you're using, for example, software and AI to use to screen resumes for hiring? Well, those have been proven to show a lot of bias, so you want to be very careful about that. So. We're talking about these implications and how to make sure that we're using it responsibly, I think there are much more severe implications being discussed in other events. I mean, I'm mostly at marketing related conferences, but tech conferences, certainly, when you're looking at automatic weapons, facial recognition software, any sort of large governmental security pieces, I would say that is, that's where those conversations are probably happening in a more fulsome setting. Yeah,

 

Stuart Murray  45:27

I can see that there's so much to unpack here, but Cody, you know, I just want to thank you for allowing me to kind of jump into your schedule, to to have this conversation, this podcast, as always, for me, the beauty of this is it's I learned something every time I talk to somebody, and this has been no different. I've learned a tremendous amount from you. You have a great feel for this. We're very fortunate to have you in Winnipeg and Manitoba and travel. Manitoba is an organization is fortunate to have you with with what it is that you do and how you see the world. Cody, last word to you, is there a question that I didn't ask you? Do you sort of say, I wish you know there's just one thing that I'd love to leave your listeners with, which is the following.

 

Speaker 1  46:05

I think the biggest takeaway is, don't be scared of it, because that's going the fear is going to prevent you from unlocking the full potential. Try to take time to play around. There is no user manual for chat GPT. So I would say first and foremost, go to Connor green and website and download the quick start guide and just play around with it. Have some fun. We as a society are no longer at 0% when we're starting something. We're at 70% it. It can transform it, but it's about changing our behaviors. It's an HR issue, and we're the issue, right? We need to change our behaviors, just like when you walk into a room, you flick on the light switch. You didn't think about that because you've always done it. That's what AI is going to do to our behaviors and our everyday mindset. So if we can get into that mindset and start to unlock the potential, you will find so many surprising ways that it can help benefit your life and be a real value to you. So as much as there's a lot of scariness around there, I would say, just have some fun and play around with it.

 

Stuart Murray  47:17

Couldn't add it any better than that. Cody chomiak, thank you so very much for your time, continued success in all you do.

 

47:23

Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy to be here.

 

Matt Cundill  47:26

Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.