Aaron Pollock: Architecture as Human Rights - Designing Spaces for Justice and Inclusion

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:20  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray  0:30  
architecture isn't just about esthetics or shelter, it's about access identity and equity. The spaces we live work and move through can either uphold our dignity or deny it. Whether it's the design of refugee camps accessible housing or public spaces that invite all voices, the built environment plays a crucial role in protecting or violating our basic human rights. In this episode, I'm delighted to have an associate architect from number 10, Aaron Pollock, who is an architect leading a conversation and rethinking designed to support justice, inclusion and freedom. Because when we talk about rights, we must also talk about the right to space. Aaron Pollock, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you for having me. Just for those listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself, introduce yourself and explain a little bit what you're

Aaron Pollack  1:24  
doing, for sure. So my name, as you mentioned, is Aaron Pollock. I'm here at number 10 architectural group where I'm an architect and associate true winnipegger, born and raised here, so it's nice to stay in the city and develop it and help see it flourish. On top of being at number 10, I also am heavily involved with the rainbow Resource Center. I'm a board member as well as the project architect for their phase two, which we'll kind of dig into. And then on top of that, I'm a part of the Manitoba association of architects, Council Member, and also with the Victoria Hospital Foundation as a board member there. So I like to keep busy and be busy in the city as well as much as they can. And

Stuart Murray  2:00  
so what was the kind of sense that you said, You know what, I want to be an architect. Where did that come from?

Aaron Pollack  2:07  
Oh, I could give the excuse of, you know, I grew up playing Legos and things like that, but I think it becomes a part of something when you start to think about the way in which people engage in spaces, and something that I think everyone sees them at a young age, about how they navigate through spaces when they get to a new place, how do they interact with things? How do they interact with people differently? And so I think it came from an early age where I was excited in this idea of building not only buildings, but building community. And

Stuart Murray  2:38  
did you see Aaron that the University of Manitoba, which I think is is quite well known for its for its architectural program. Did you see when you got into it that the issues that you were concerned about, you know, how people navigate through spaces that that was being embraced? Or did you see, I mean, architecture, being an art form, has had a lot of modifications and changes. And so what was your first reaction or impression, I guess, when you went to the University of Manitoba with knowing what you hoped were you were going to learn and what you started to actually learn during your time there, I think

Aaron Pollack  3:14  
it's always maybe a bit of a shock to everyone who starts in the field of architecture or the faculty. It's about thinking about spaces in different ways and lines and walls. It's about how to navigate spaces. It's about how to interact with others in those spaces. So my education, I think, was great in that it showed a diverse perspective, and you get to see different contextual observations as well as some theoretical, some technical. So I think it was good in that sense, but it really it's a platform. It's springboard for you to kind of take on whatever research you really are interested in. And so, you know, undergrad through graduate degree, being able to explore architecture in a way that I was personally interested in, that's obviously evolved. My more recent interests have kind of come about different projects and experiences within the community. But yeah, I would say the experience at the University of Manitoba allowed folks and myself included, to take advantage of that experience and explore different opportunities in design.

Stuart Murray  4:15  
And one of the great things I think about number 10, the architectural firm that you're involved in, Aaron, is it keeps you in Winnipeg, but you have a pretty broad reach in terms of some of the projects that the organization is involved in.

Aaron Pollack  4:29  
Absolutely. We're about 70 years old. The firm we touch pretty much all of Western Canada projects from, you know, Northern Ontario, all the way to BC. We have another office in Victoria. So we we've dedicated a lot of time to Western Canada, and the work that we do is pretty diverse. I often say the only thing that we don't touch on is single family residence and some healthcare. So whether it be residential, multifamily, residential, schools, offices, workplace, you name it, it's. Something that we might have touched at some

Stuart Murray  5:02  
point or another. Yeah, fantastic. And, you know, I, before we get into sort of some of the specifics you're involved in, Aaron, when I was the president and CEO of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, I had a, you know, great pleasure and quite an honor, frankly, to work with Antoine Predock, who was the architect of record for the museum. It was the first time that, when you started to live in the world that he lives in. I mean, he brought us in. He was quite amazing. You know, you you sometimes looked at him as if he was more of almost an artist that saw a blank space that he was making into three dimensions, and how he worked through that. Do you see the relationship between being an architect and an artist? Oh,

Aaron Pollack  5:43  
absolutely. I mean, everything that we create is coming from artistic perspective. It's going to be subjective, it's going to be an interpretation, and it's a way to bring beauty into our world. Really, it could be as simple as subtle nuances in the way a building functions, or it could be grand gestures. Really. It's about creating a vision and bringing people into that fold and making sure that it's something that it's accessible to everyone too. I think that's that's the key piece of architecture as an art form, is making sure that it is something that makes a statement, that is accessible. So

Stuart Murray  6:19  
I want to talk a little bit about the event that I had a chance to meet you at, which is a fabulous event queer spaces. And I want to just take what you just said about accessibility, Aaron, because I think sometimes when people talk about accessibility, they think about people who may be in chairs, a mobility issue. And so, you know, people get their heads around that, I think, relatively easy, although I think as a society, we got a long way to go before we make sure that those barriers have come down. But when you talk about accessibility from your perspective, and what you know, I was so engaged and energized by the event at queer spaces and the people that spoke in that whole thing share your thoughts around you, know the importance of that event as it relates to you as a as an architect, for sure,

Aaron Pollack  7:04  
queer space really came around this concept. Working with rainbow Resource Center on their Phase Two project, we were really trying to figure out, what does it mean to create a purpose built queer space? I can talk about it more, but a lot of the things that we see nowadays are previously, are this concept of queering space? So, you know, the community occupying a space that wasn't necessarily designed for them, but how is it transformed to be inclusive and accessible? And so the idea evolved and became kind of a passion project of mine as well. And what we decided to do was to create an event that welcomed the community and the design community to have a conversation about, what does it mean to create queer space? And so it follows a PechaKucha format. It's 10 speakers, each of them getting 20 slides, being on the screen for 20 seconds per slide. And so it's a really quick, fast paced conversation in that regard. But what it really gets at is, how do we get people in the community talking? How do we bring in different perspectives? How do we have different stories shared about people's lived experiences with inclusivity and accessibility in space? This is the second year, actually, that we've we've had the event run so we have in and around five community members, and it's a great dialog. It brings together the two communities. It's, it's something that I've been tentative about before doing these events, bringing my two worlds together. If it were like my queer community and my architecture community, it's, it's always like a dueling imposter syndrome. You know what I mean? Like, it's a double imposter syndrome in that kind of scenario, right? But I think that was a great challenge to bring the two together to identify, Okay, I'm talking about space in this way, and then you're talking about space in another way. How do we speak the same language? How do we now understand things differently, and how do we then take what we've learned and apply that to the built form? Really, a lot of a lot of buildings inform the way that we function in spaces too, right? Whether they be inviting or not, whether they be inclusive or not. And that's not just for the queer community. I think in any space that we've walked into and not felt welcome or uncomfortable in some way, there's a root cause to that, and it's something in a design, or something in a move, or something in a restriction that causes those moves. So how do we navigate all of these things? How do we talk about them? And that was really the hope of the event, which I think was successful again, in getting people to talk a little bit more specifically about what it is about those spaces. What

Stuart Murray  9:45  
did you call the process? Because I'm going to explain it just one more time. What did you call it? The Petra Kucha. For me, I'm going to just sort of sort of say it back to you, because to me, it was you basically had 10 speakers with different backgrounds. Different points of view. They had six minutes and they had slides, and so you knew you were there for an hour, right? I mean, just from a time perspective, but you knew that the way that it rolled, and how quick it was and how vibrant it was, and the different perspectives, it's great. And so help me. Pecha, Kuva, did you say? Kucha, yeah, I apologize. Don't know, is that a process or Yeah,

Aaron Pollack  10:22  
no, it's a Japanese term, I believe, and it's a format of presentation. And so previously in the city, they've been called 10 by 20 by 20, put on by the MAA and so yeah, it's a format that I was familiar with from the design side, and just kind of rolled it into one of the two. It was brilliant.

Stuart Murray  10:38  
It was really, really well done just as somebody in the audience. So congratulations, Aaron. I want to just make sure that I'm always careful on language here. But you know, one of the things that, and I don't recall who the who the presenter was, but talking about the difference between designing a queer space from the beginning versus here's a space. We have to figure out. How do we, and I'm, do you sort of queer? It the space. So there's, you know, is, Am I saying that correctly? Yeah,

Aaron Pollack  11:06  
queer space. It's an academic term. It's a it's a function of, how do we actually create a space that is inclusive and welcoming to

Stuart Murray  11:13  
all so, so give me some sense of how you, I mean, we're going to talk about the rainbow Resource Center, because you're not only the board, but you're the lead architect for that project, walk us through a little bit about the process of creating a queer space.

Aaron Pollack  11:26  
It's interesting. I don't have a perfect formula per se, but based on our experience of kind of diving into this a little bit further and working with rainbow and community, it's really about talking about what it is to create a space that anyone at any stage of their life, whether that be coming out fully out, young, young at heart, older in years. How do you create a space that can be super flexible and welcoming? A lot of the design work that we looked into when developing this concept of queer space in relation to Rainbow really dived into, what about the space could function in terms of its flexibility? What about it can function in terms of its adaptability over time? You know, this might not always be something that needs certain programming, like, how does that change? And how does a physical form change right without having to put a bunch of bells and whistles to make that happen. A lot about flexibility and fluidity. The space has, like an organic growth to it. There's going to be a lack of hierarchy and making sure that there's spaces in which people can kind of be kind of out and proud, or kind of tucked away and a little bit more reserved. So it's interesting in terms of how to kind of balance all these things and create something that's truly welcoming to everyone in the community, because it is so diverse.

Stuart Murray  12:49  
Again, I love the fact that you see there's no model, so you're creating this as you go, which comes back to sort of the artist side of your world. Is there a place Aaron that you have visited in your life, in your travels, that you would say this was one of the most welcoming queer spaces I've ever been in. Maybe in Winnipeg doesn't have to be, but is there something that you have experienced that is really kind of, I guess, just use the term kind of spoken to you?

Aaron Pollack  13:17  
I guess, yeah, there are spaces that I felt welcome in but I wouldn't say it's due to the design or anything like that. I think of spaces that are, you know, iconic establishments in the world that are queer spaces, and they're known to be queer spaces because that is their function, whether that be, you know, a community center or a bar or something like that. But it's funny, because when I started to think about that, a little bit more analytical, like, I take, for example, the Stonewall Inn in New York City. It's, you know, this iconic building that you know, culturally known by a lot of people, the home of the Stonewall riot in 1969 really leading the way in kind of the catalyst of a lot of gay rights movements. But when you look at the space, and you know you, if you were to go into the space, take away any of the rainbow flags, or take away any of the signage and things like that, what about the space to in an architectural form? Was really a queer space. And so that's where I kind of started this challenge of like, okay, well, is this a purpose built queer space, or is it a result of someone taking it over and making it their own? What would change differently if, you know, say they hired an architect at the time and said, Give me a queer space. What would that have actually looked like at the time? So there are nuances in terms of how people have queered spaces. And I don't mean it deliberately as just flags and signage. There are ways in which other other ways of doing that. But yeah, I think a lot of the spaces I've been in, it's been a function of querying space, and not necessarily a purpose built so it's interesting to see, and in some of the research too that I've done. Yes, there are a couple of buildings, more contemporary buildings that have been done that are purpose built queer spaces. So I think of the Los Angeles LGBT Center. It was constructed in 2019 and then, more recently, in 2021 the Victorian Pride Center in Melbourne, Australia. And these are contemporary buildings. They serve the function as designed by and for the queer community. And when I was looking at those buildings and trying to understand, you know, from an architectural standpoint, what about these stood out of queer space, it spoke a lot about a similar kind of functionality that I mentioned at the beginning. You know, like flexibility, adaptability. Does it have, maybe a housing component to it? What are the programs like, and how does that manipulate the way in which the building needs to perform? What I'm seeing is it's a lot more about a flexibility and inclusivity. So,

Stuart Murray  15:49  
you know, Aaron, if you look at what you're doing with the rainbow Resource Center, I mean, you know, coming back to the fact you're the lead architect for that project, and, you know, I drive by Broadway all the time. I'm just waiting for that shovel to go on ground, because we, you know, I've had a tour, and we've seen what it's, you know, the kind of your vision for it through the process of the architectural renderings look spectacular. But just coming back to what kind of you just said, Aaron, there's, there's a number of components of the community piece. Because there's a, there's, there are some, I think, Westminster housing, I think, is overseeing some of the current residential places. And then there's the Education Center, which is a beautiful building, probably too small, but, but regardless, you've got that building, so now you're going to drop this incredible place in that space. What, what sorts of things do you think about when you kind of envision what does that look like as kind of this new addition to two existing physical structures. Yeah,

Aaron Pollack  16:44  
that was the greatest challenge of the project. Is not only understanding this, this plethora of information regarding what is queer space in a theoretical standpoint. Now, to take that into a physical being in the site, it's not just a blank slate either, right? So, as you mentioned, there's the the apartment building, 21 unit apartment building, four stories. The main floor is open, so that's what we'll be working with, a fit up of that space. But you also have Wilson house, home of the former clinic building on Broadway. It has a lot of connection to the community already. So how do you take a heritage, protected exterior building. Mailed that in with a new building that was just complete a couple earlier this year, and now introducing a third element, all while complex concepts of space are intertwined into this. So what we tried to do was simplify the statement, and what I mean by that is the element that is kind of protruding outwards from the apartment building and in front of Wilson house was really meant to meet a statement of, we're here, we're taking up space. And it's meant to be loud and proud at that corner. The rest of it then kind of adds into that concept. So the component that sits out in the landscape then ties back and connects both the Wilson house and the apartment building on the main floor, and really it's about fitting in all the program and elements that we need to function within the remainder of the space. So you have the main floor of the apartment building, which is really going to be where all the programming happens. Multi Purpose rooms. You have a new cafe going in. There some gender inclusive washrooms. You have the bubble, I like to nickname it, sticking out into the landscape that really, works really well with the with the landscape design that htsc has designed. But Wilson house is also a main component of that. The main floor of former clinic building is housing, you know, staffing areas as well as cultural space, making sure that there's room for ceremony while the other two floors of Wilson house are functioning, you know, as for Rainbow staff, as well as counseling. I like to call a small but mighty site. It's doing a heck of a lot of work in the end of a city blocked. It's pretty astonishing how much we're able to fit into that space, and the aspirations of the project as well. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  19:08  
it's going to be, it's going to be really quite something spectacular and and thank you for bringing up Wilson house. I wasn't, I mean, I knew that it was, at one time, the home of clinic. I didn't have the name of it, but it's always great when you bring those that history into the importance again, of what the project is, and the bubble, or whatever you know it's, it's going to be fantastic. What would you say, Aaron, you've obviously, you know, got it to a point where it's designed, but when you first kind of thought about what that looked like, how close is your final vision, or the finished product that you're going to be building? How close was it to when you first started mapping it out in your mind?

Aaron Pollack  19:48  
I wouldn't say super close. I think, with any process in any art form, and especially in architecture, you're balancing between the technical and the artistic. And so. So as things evolve, and as you're talking to community about their needs and things like that too, it's a it's a balancing act of you know what you want to see artistically, but also what needs to function and actually work in the space too. So I'd say there's quite a few iterations about how to, how to make those buildings work together, but I think the biggest component was how to gently make a statement while also being, and I say gently in terms of working in concert with a new building and the heritage exterior building, you know, trying to simplify that and make it meld together. But how do you gently make a statement in the site that still has presence. I think that's what we kind of landed on in the end, was this curvature building that really brought you into the site, brought you into different entrances, creating niches, creating visibility. It's a fully transparent building. So it's really that idea of eyes on the street, but also the reverse, bringing eyes to the community. Yeah, I'd say it's not super close, but I'm super happy with the end result in terms of where the evolution occurred, because it's always about evolution.

Stuart Murray  21:12  
And I, you know, I mean, I don't ask that to take it on a rabbit hole, but I look at it and say that again. You know, it's a fascination for me to whenever you see a rendering, you know, an architectural rendering, I mean, you know, it is always just a beautiful, beautiful design. It's incredible no matter what it is. And in your particular case, at the rainbow Resource Center, what you're doing, I think the way you described it is exactly how I saw it, when I you know without really knowing, but it has this notion that that it's very visible and it's very proud, and it's making a statement. And whether you're and this is one of the things that I think is always a testament to the to the magic and the creativity of any architect, is what does the exterior look like, and what does the interior look like? And are they the same? Is there something that is designed to be different? But in this case, I, you know, I love the the openness, because I just anytime that I've talked to members of the queer community, you know, you talk back to some of the 50 years ago when they literally were in hiding, and now you know they're not, you're proud, you're, you're, you're part of the community, and you're celebrating it. And so, you know, congratulations on what you ended up because I think it's a, it's going to be a real testament to that, that whole corner with everything that that's there. So, you know, I think it's amazing, but I wondered Aaron in this process. I mean, you know, when you know you talk about the queer community, but with inside that, you know, it's the 2s, L, G, B, T, Q, plus, did you find that there were? I wanted to be careful. So I'm not just challenges or thoughts or things that maybe you know, comments that helped you shape your design, that you didn't think about at the time. And let me just pause, just to give you a sense of why I'm asking it this way, is when we were at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, we were, we had the building code with the number of washrooms. Then we were, we could have passed the grade for the number of washrooms in that very complex building, but we had a session with the Center for Disability here in Winnipeg. And you know, a lot of the people very clearly said, Well, you know, the ability, availability of washrooms is very important to us. And it became clear to us, Aaron, that we were going to fall far short, regardless of what the building code said. We were going to fall far short to that community. And so we were able to learn from them, and because we learn from them, and I gotta tell you that a lot of times, people looked at this thing and said, Do you realize how much more money it's gonna cost to put more washrooms in than what the Canada Building Code calls for? And I'm not that smart, Aaron, but I said, Do you realize what it would cost us to buy a public relations firm to try to explain why somebody in a chair had to transverse two floors to get to a washroom? It would be unconscionable. And so, you know, kind of with that background, you know, can you share some of the conversations you had and some of the things that you were able to learn to put into this incredible design that you created. Yeah,

Aaron Pollack  24:24  
I'd say from day one, the process started differently than some other projects I've been on where, you know, maybe it is based on $1 value or proforma or functionality that maybe isn't necessarily community center focused. So I think right off the hop, the conversation started on the right foot, based on who the end result users are. Let some architecture speak for you there. But when you break it down to like conversations with community, it really. Started with rainbow and the staff, first and foremost. You know, they're the ones in the space day to day. They're the ones who already understand the community members who come and use the space, and I put full trust in terms of what they say, in terms of what they need, because they're the end user, and they're the ones who who know the space best. And so a lot of the conversations we had was, you know, about safety and accessibility, and again, not necessarily accessibility, as you mentioned before, as folks who require special requirements here and there. But like, is this space accessible? Can I get to the building? Can I get into the building? Is it easy to find? Is it easy to navigate? Is it, you know, feeling welcoming? So I think some of the conversation that I had with the staff were were the best indicators from the start, and then when we opened it up to community, it was interesting to see that a lot of folks were just saying, we're just happy this is happening. You know, they couldn't care less if there was one washroom or 10 washrooms, but they were just happy something was happening, which was a great start, and it was great to get people excited for the project. But then, you know, it's our responsibility then to ask the next question after that. It's like, you know, we're excited too, but what about this space? Would make it function even better? So it's not only that we're asking people to imagine and dream, we're asking them to be part of this experience in creating that queer space together. So some of the conversations entailed, you know, those items about having loud and proud moments versus quiet moments. You know, folks who come to the center, who maybe aren't super out in the community, that want an opportunity to be less visible. You know, it's something that I think really, really made me think about how the duality of this space needs to function. And again, that word accessibility, how it needs to be accessible to someone in both of those scenarios, many other examples, I think. But at the end of the day, the conversations really stemmed into, how can we create something that is adjustable and flexible as possible? There's just always a different need, whether that be a celebration, whether it be a morning, a protest, like the gambit of emotions and feelings that people might have in this space, really helps inform that and ways that we kind of introduced the conversation at a design standpoint, is this concept of trauma informed design as well, something that we implemented in terms of thinking about those moments as people use the space were kind of important in the background, but really came to light as the conversations developed. As you know, how do we create a space that isn't just about a celebration, but it is a space that needs to properly be designed from trauma, informed triggers? Can

Stuart Murray  28:00  
you be a bit more specific, if I ask you on that like, what does that look like from your from a design perspective, from an architecture perspective,

Aaron Pollack  28:08  
for sure, it's kind of like trauma informed care. So if you're doing any counseling or any work in that field, trauma informed design really makes decisions through psychological and cultural research, but really the intent is to create spaces that have a sense of safety. And so often it's kind of it's a three tiered we call it the three Cs. So it's giving choice, comfort and connection. And so anyone who is using a space has the ability to make a choice of, you know, where they're going in the building, what they're doing in the building, there's a choice of direction, choice of flow, for comfort. It's about creating different levels of comfort for different people where you're at in your life, whether that be for a quieter space or a louder space. And then connection. How do you connect with others? How do you connect with the community? How do you connect with people that you're engaging with, maybe on a counseling level? How you connect with staff? It's about making sure that the space has different functions for each of those three Cs, and arguably, we always add the fourth C, which is charm. So how do you add beauty and whimsy or delight into the project? It's not necessarily responding to the trauma informed elements in a analytical manner. But how do you add that design and artistic expression to it as well? Aaron,

Stuart Murray  29:25  
if I were to say to you, you know, somebody might have had an idea of saying, Look, we understand what you want to do at Rainbow Resource Center. We support it 100% but you know, why don't you just sort of build a beautiful square design that you know, has some rooms that you can divide and give some privacy, but really it's going to rely on the people, you know, the people that are there. And so, you know, just kind of put the design off to the side, but really it's the people. And you know, surely they should be able to do the sorts of things that you know require that. Sort of that sensibility for human beings, so that they're well taken care of. How would you again, just respond to that? For sure,

Aaron Pollack  30:07  
I'd say, arguably, that's already what's been happening. Folks have been utilizing spaces throughout the city that weren't designed for them, but they make it work, and they get a lot done, and a lot is being done. I'm not saying that the space is super is going to hinder that. But by designing a space that works with the community, for the community, it's going to work so much better, tenfold better, in terms of the way that people are able to respond to it, the way that they're able to connect to it. I mean, it's one thing to go to, you know, a strip mall and go into a space that is a queer space. Arguably, there's, there's nothing wrong about that, but there's the ability now to call something your home. The really exciting part of this project is that rainbow is now owning space. Previously, they've always rented out spaces throughout the city, so the idea that they own land, they own a building, they own presence in the community, I think, is really a testament to to what that queer space potential is. And so by creating something that is purpose built, that is reflective of the community, I think, right off the hop, it does. It works in concert with the folks who organize and run the programming it works in concert with the staff and with the vision of any organization that supports the career community.

Stuart Murray  31:29  
So Aaron as an architect, you know, they're you're given this incredible opportunity, this task, you know, your passion, is very clear. Did it ever was part of the conversation? Again, this is a learning moment for me that when I realized that, you know, the first gay men's club in North America, you know people of San Francisco, no, the University of Manitoba, and you listen and you think about the history, which you know, I think is so important for all of us to learn, because I didn't know it, you know. And those are kinds of things that make Winnipeg the kind of special place that it is that it's had not to say for one moment Aaron that over the last What did rainbow just celebrate 5050, years a couple years ago, 50 years, okay, so that that's 50 Years of, I mean, I can't think of the words because, I mean, it was challenging and difficult and terrifying, and all of the elements that brought you forward to where you are today, that you're celebrating and you're at the table and you're loud and you're proud, and it's amazing. What's happened. Would you have been asked as an architect to try to bring in some of the history of how the challenges that I mean, yes, we are celebrating. There's still lots of work to do, for sure, but we're celebrating, but it wasn't always. And I want to be careful in my words always on these conversations, Aaron, because maybe celebratory is not the right word. But you know, people have gone through hell to get to a position where all of a sudden, community is coming together and so and that is in my mind, these are my words, but that's a celebration. Absolutely,

Aaron Pollack  33:10  
I think it's a part of a ongoing process that community constantly needs to remind themselves on is the history of the community, and it beyond building projects and things like that, it's constantly remembering those who have uplifted us right like it's it's an ability for us to now recognize and thank and continue to work together with and for them as well. And so I think when I think of this project, you know, it is standing on the work of so many other people in the community that have done this for, you know, 50 plus years beyond rainbow even. And so when I think of the ability for us to create a project like that, it doesn't go without saying that there's a lot of respect and pride for those who have done this work before us, we wouldn't be here today doing these kind of things. You and I wouldn't be having these kind of conversations if it wasn't for the work that these folks have been doing. So in terms of some of the project too, there are nods, in terms of like, where we might be able to introduce references to historical events or educational opportunities. The center won't only act as a place for community, but it's also a place of education too. You know, if it's school groups who are coming here to learn about different tourist LGBTQ plus history in Canada and beyond, there's going to be references and possibly the finishes on the interior. I think there's ways in which the building can be a teaching tool as well. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  34:44  
there's no question that the amount of thought that you put into it. And again, I, you know, having seen the renderings and seeing how it fits into that space, it can't wait to get in there and have a look and see and, you know, I always think it's great to, you know, be able to say, Hey, listen, I. Okay, I talked to the architect that made this happen. Okay, so, you know he's he gave me kind of an insight before it opened. Aaron is just from a pure architectural standpoint, your background, your your your creativity. When you think about Winnipeg, what's what building stands out to you? If, if, if any, to say, You know what, this is a great building. And I'm not talking about queer spaces. I'm simply talking I'm simply talking about you as an architect. Is there a space, a building, that you would say, you know, I, every time I get a chance to drive by there, I see something different. I admire it. Or

Aaron Pollack  35:31  
that's a tough one. Actually, I think I like different buildings for different purposes. You know, I, I was always really interested in just this idea of like an interior urbanism, where people could take over a space and function in it the way that they wanted to. So I think of the forks, for instance, right? It's, it's this great microcosm of different people, different backgrounds, different opportunities. You have food, you have shopping, you have lounging spaces, you have programming. I'm really attracted to those kind of things. So in a sense, even like a university building, it's this, again, microcosm of different perspectives and education, and people are there for different reasons. And so the ability for folks to come into a space make it their own. I guess also that concept of third space, you have your home, you have your workspace. What's that third element that you go to, that you see is that extension of the two? Yeah, I think a lot of those kind of spaces are super exciting to me. There's just more ability for them to evolve. And I think that's the same too, with any cultural centers too. They're meant to be evolving resource centers, cultural centers, community centers. It's something that the community really takes advantage of in terms of activating, which is really exciting. So how the building responds to those is always the unique part. Yeah, you

Stuart Murray  36:56  
know, I love the way you describe that, because I think, you know, we do have an issue in Winnipeg with climate, I mean, in the sense of winter and, you know, we, I mean, we can be outdoors, but, you know, the reality is that there are parts of, you know, people that don't have the ability to maybe have the proper clothing to be outside. And so, you know, that's just kind of who we are as the makeup of our city. We've got challenges in our city, and we continually try, hopefully, to strive, to make it better for everyone. And I would just say that, you know, the project that you're involved in is going to be, I think it's going to be a real landmark for the community in ways that we probably haven't even thought of yet. I think, you know, because it's such an important part of who we are as a city. And, you know, I just want to just sort of, as we kind of wrap up things here, Aaron, I just want to say that, you know, congratulations on queer spaces event. I know you were behind that, involved in that. It was a tremendous I just, it was entertaining, it was informative, it was energetic, it was all of the things. And I don't know how you saved, you know, sort of the Oh, donuts presentation to the last, but that was something else. I mean, it was just, it was spectacular. But I just wanted to say, you know, congratulations, Aaron on the work that you're doing. As you say you're involved, and not only very rainbow Resource Center, but the Victoria Hospital. So you're involved in the community in many ways as we we sort of sign off on the on this conversation. Aaron, I always ask, is there anything I didn't ask you that that you might want to have a chance to talk about with the rainbow Resource Center Project, or anything else around queer spaces?

Aaron Pollack  38:35  
No, I think really, it's about understanding how we go beyond the conversation of the bathroom and the you know gender inclusive spaces that you know everyone everyone thinks of and is hot topic in a lot of different facilities. How do we take it that next step and think about creating spaces that are inclusive and welcoming, but that remove those barriers? So if I think of like gendered spaces, like washrooms, how do we remove that barrier to make sure that folks can utilize the space equally as however anyone identifies? And so what are the next steps there in terms of creating those non gendered spaces? You know, like, we could talk about change rooms. We could talk about when you're going to the store and there's like, a men's and women's side to a store. Like, what does that mean? Oftentimes I give this this discussion just about signage for bathrooms. Like, why is it that it is a man and a woman sign as an infographic that's kind of the internationally known and recognized infographic for the signage. So are there ways in which we can challenge that notion, and it is a part of some of the work that we're doing right now is trying to rethink about what that is. There is a graphic artist who is trying to reinterpret this idea of the washroom sign as being a hand washing infographic. Graphic. So instead of being a gendered graphic, it's about this idea of hand washing, which everyone does at the washroom. So can you repurpose this idea of a washroom as being a symbolic, non gendered kind of graphic? So we started to actually introduce things like that to early education, like in terms of our school design and other areas. So think of something as simple as a washroom sign. How can we change that?

Stuart Murray  40:22  
Shouldn't be that complicated. But wow, right? You're going, you're going against, you know, swimming upstream, and in many ways, because, you know, people will always default to, well, this is the international sign for, and you sort of say, I get it. That's the current international sign. What's the New International Sign. What's that look like? How do we, you know? I mean, how do you do that? So, you know, congratulations on that. That's that's a great way. And I always think it's so interesting when people bring another viewpoint to challenge something that is kind of the status quo. And, you know, I mean, look at the end of the day, if it doesn't improve, it fair enough. You stay where you are, but you know, for goodness sakes, what's wrong with trying to challenge it and being creative and looking at it and getting engaged people and which is what you're doing. So Aaron Pollock, associate architect number 10 architecture firm, community builder, lead architect in rainbow Resource Center Project. Thank you for finding some time to have a conversation. It was great to be with you at the queer spaces event, and even more impressive to meet and talk with you today. So thank you for finding some time to jump onto this podcast. Thank you very

Aaron Pollack  41:29  
much for welcoming me.

Matt Cundill  41:30  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to humanrightshub.ca

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  41:51  
produced and distributed by the sound off media company do.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai