Clayton Sandy: Orange Shirt Day and the Journey of Healing

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:20  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:31  
September 30 is orange shirt day, also recognized as Canada's National Day for truth and reconciliation. It's a day that honors the children who never came home from residential schools, their survivors, their families and their communities. The orange shirt itself comes from the story of Phyllis webstad, who, at just six years old, had her brand new orange shirt taken away from her on her first day at residential school. That simple act symbolizes the loss, trauma and injustice experienced by 1000s of Indigenous children, but it also carries a powerful message of hope. Every Child Matters. Today, we'll explore why this day is so important, what it teaches us about our history and how each of us can play a role in reconciliation. Now my guest today is and I'm going to call him a knowledge keeper. He also has an Honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Winnipeg, and his list goes on of all of his incredible accomplishments, like advising me, sits on the board of a hospital, st Boniface hospital. He also sits on the board of the Winnipeg Foundation, and has created many, many things around reconciliation, but most importantly, he's a friend, and he is somebody that I have come to know, and I was lucky enough to get to know through covid, and we become good friends since, full disclosure, he sits on my board and his trusted, trusted advisor, and I'm thrilled and delighted to have him On my humans on right Podcast. I'm going to call you Honorary Doctor knowledge keeper. Clayton Sandy, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you, Stu. You're you've got such a great history, and rather than have me read it, for those listening and kind of watching us on YouTube, tell us a little bit about who you are and some of your background, and we'll get into a good discussion on orange shirt day. But want to talk a bit about some of the racism, etc, that you and I have talked about when we have breakfast, but just share with a little bit about who you are, please.

Clayton Sandy  2:31  
My my home community is a community in western Manitoba called Sioux Valley, Dakota, First Nation. That's where my mom is from, and my dad's from a reserve called Dakota, means Pipestone and my family, my parents and my siblings. Yeah, we never, we never actually grew up on a reserve. We grew up in a small town just north of Brandon called rivers, rivers camp, and used to be an army base there. I'll go back to maybe, like my dad just passed away last year. He was 102 and in 1941 he signed up to go to World War Two. And at that time, there's a policy there that is called enfranchisement, that any indigenous person goes to signs up for Canadian Army, automatically becomes a non Indian. So dad went off to war. He's wounded twice, and he comes back, and he was, he was a non Indian, and so that, yeah, I think I, I've often talked about that many, many times in my journey with my dad. So when dad came back, there's 12 kids, and two have passed away, and the 10, that's the 10 that that survived. Yeah, we didn't have status. So we grew up around army bases, like we grew up around we grew up in rivers. Then we moved to a little town just just east of Brandon, Brandon called Douglas, and dad was was stationed at Shiloh, and then eventually we made our way to Brandon. And I think maybe, I think maybe I was around maybe 10 or 11 when my parents separated. And then when I was 11, I got, I got part of what they call the 60s scoop. So I got sent to I got put into foster care in Dauphin Manitoba, and I was there till I was

Stuart Murray  4:06  
17, so Clayton just before. We'll stop there at 17. But just you said a couple of things that I think are important for anybody listening to. Say that your father became a non status. Had non status recognition. What is the difference between having status and non status, in terms of what does that mean from a First Nations perspective?

Clayton Sandy  4:26  
Well, you're not recognized under Canada as being, actually being an Indian, so you're not, yeah, you could, because, because the Dakota people, like we never signed any treaties in Canada, because we're originally from the States, so we had no land to surrender. So we're what we're what could call status non treaty, because we had, we had no, we had no treaty. So when I was around 11 or 12, and I got put into foster care. So so my mother stayed and stayed in Brandon with my older siblings, and then I lived in dock until I was 17. Some people would say that they had her. They had a really, a really good experience. In their foster placement, or even at residential school. And that's, that's, that's what happened with me. I wound up in a really good foster home, and and my my my foster parents. I still talk to my foster mom maybe twice a week. She's think she's 92 or 93 now, wow. I just talked to yesterday morning. So we go, yes. So we talked to twice a week. And and they had, they had three kids of their own. And I think they said that they fostered something like 350 kids over about 45 years. And then, and then, when, when I left, when I turned 17, they adopted two indigenous babies, wow. And so Glenn and Glenn and Lizzie. So they're, they're probably in their in their 40s, probably maybe 50s now. But anyway, so when I got back to Brandon, I was, I think I was, I was, I was only home for but maybe not even maybe just a little over a year. Then my mom passed away, and then I've been on my own since I was 17 when my parents separated. My dad moved, moved to he was kind of all over the place, because, because you're the court of people, we have dual citizenship. My father moved to the States. So he lived in Oklahoma, he lived in Washington. So he kind of traveled around, and he was, he was like an entrepreneur, like he, I know when he was in Oklahoma and and then he ran and he had his own little bar, you know, little little town, a little little bar where people, everybody knows each other. So he did that for a few years, and then he, then he moved up to Washington and a little place called Blaine, Blaine Washington and and bought some property there and built a home there. And, of course, he was, he was remarried, and, yeah, but my dad and I never had a good relationship at all, and, and he hadn't, he hadn't actually talked to me. And maybe, like, probably, like, 40 years, maybe he was upset with me when I will, when I decided to to, I guess, change my lifestyle. And when I mean that, you know, I the home I grew up in, and all the, all the relatives around me from, from Chernobyl and Pipestone, I found when I, when I look back, I find that I just wondered, like all the adults seem to be, there was something wrong, and there's, there's a lot of lot of alcoholism, there's a lot of violence, lot of all kinds of abuses going on. And I didn't know where that came from. It wasn't until I think I became an adult, and, you know, eventually moved to Winnipeg, and then I always knew about residential schools, because my mom would always talk about her experience at residential school. I always remember that show the Waltons. Remember the Waltons, whenever, whenever the lights went out, they start talking,

Stuart Murray  7:33  
yeah, good night, good night. Good night, good night.

Clayton Sandy  7:35  
Yeah, when my dad was in the home, which is quite often, so my mom would talk. She'd teach us Dakota and words she talked about her experience, but everything she talked about her time at Brandon residential school was was very, very, very terrible, like the treatment and and the starving and the sexual abuse and and all that kind of stuff. She had six sisters that went to residential school with her, and at some point, two of the youngest ones disappeared. So, so, so their names was Clara and Dora. And I always remember hearing their names because you know when, when I'd be I'd be home sometimes, and my grandma would come in from Sioux Valley and come stay with my mom. I'd always hear them crying and talking about Clara and Dora all the time. And so, so. And of course, I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't really acknowledge or understand that at that time. It wasn't till later on when I started hearing, when I started educating myself more about residential schools and impact. And that happened when I when I came into government. In 1976 from Brandon, I moved to Winnipeg and had I went back to school again and got into government. And one thing I couldn't comprehend was how much people hated me in government, and they hated me because I had had braids and then and, and this. Couldn't get over the racism I experienced. And I started in government 1976 and I just couldn't get over how much they hated me and and, and I couldn't figure that out. And it just seemed like they just didn't like Indians, and they say nasty things to me and my colleagues. And there weren't a lot of indigenous people working in government at that time, like I'd probably say, I could count them on both hands of the people I knew that worked for the provincial government. So I didn't I didn't stay in too many departments. I moved quite a bit, but my career, I started off as a draftsman and with natural resources. Then I moved to Energy and Mines, and I became a cartographer. And then from there, I lost my job under one film and came in, and then I went back to school, and the deputy minister of education became a friend of mine, and he told me, there's a there's an adult course in Brandon on education, if you go with, if you take that course, I'll bring you back into government when you complete the course. So I'd so I did that. So I came back into government. And by that time, I think it was probably, probably like, maybe the early 90s, so I had, like, maybe about 1816, 18 years of experience at government already, and I was starting to. On the ropes, I started to get to know people. And I remember one time I was going through a really terrible time, and somebody had told me there's a native guy at the ledge that works there, and his name is Elijah Harper. Maybe, maybe I'll give him a call. So I give him a call one day out of the blue there, and and I think Paul, he wasn't Paul he wasn't government at that time, Premier, yeah, Howard, Polly. I explained to I explained to Elijah who I was and all that. And when, as soon as you heard my my last name, he said, but he said, Do you know, do you know Carl? Do you know Bruce and you know Earl and those are my older brothers. And I didn't realize that Elijah Harper went to birdle residential school. That's where, that's where six of my siblings went on it as well. So so he so we made a connection there right away. And yet, when he invited me down to ledge, he brought bought me lunch, and then he I just shared, shared all the racism that I was going through and stuff like that. And he shared that, you know, there's racism in his circle as well, even though that they're all They're all from the same parties for racism is still alive and well. And I just shared my experience with, you know, with what I was going through my department, Elijah didn't have a, have a cabinet post at that time. And then, so just all of a sudden, another guy came in and, and Elijah called him over, and that was Jerry story. And Jerry was, that was, was the minister of the department I was working, I was working for, and and then, and then. So, yeah, so he asked him to sit down, he had coffee with us, and then I just shared sort of, sort of what I was going through. So Jerry said that I'll call your department. He said, so. So by the time lunch was over, when Jerry had left, and then Elijah and I stayed for maybe another 45 minutes when I got back to the office, I guess he had already called the office, and I didn't realize what happens when a minister calls an office, and I get back to the office, and then all their, you know, people are ready to cater to me and stuff like that. And, and basically, all I, all I kind of wanted to do at that time, and, and, what, what, what, you know, what was going on was that, well, I wanted to be treated with some kind of respect that I remember my executive executive director saying to me one time, and friend of my colleagues are all you effing Indians that stupid? So that would just Yeah. So there was it. Was always comments around that, around indigenous people. The Office at that time was an etons place, so people saw indigenous people at the library Park, and so they'd come back to go out and come back for lunch, and he'd ask me questions about, why are all Indians drunks and on welfare and begging for money and data? And when I thought about it, that was, it was true, and they were my people. And to tell you the honest truth, there's a lot of people from communities that I knew. I knew quite a bit of them, and there's actually two older gentlemen that used to be on the main drag. And they're they're both veterans as well from SU Valley. So I used to tell, tell that story to some of my colleagues that that would listen think was the ADM asked me what I wanted, and they said, what I really want, I wouldn't mind to be able to educate other indigenous youth about my the job I have. So they said, Okay, you can have 30% of your job, and you can go do what you want to do in regards to sharing your sharing your work with with indigenous people. So my title at that time was a cartographer. So I was going out, and I was going to career fairs, and in different Brandon and Flin Flon, and often, I was promoting careers to the indigenous community, for youth to get into drafting, or what, or whatever. And I found that, you know, found that really exciting. And then I decided to then, then when the government changed, and of course, I lost my job, and then, of course, when I came back, I wound up in education, and then, and then, of course, on my journey, I always get to, I know, for some reason, I always run into a lot of really different people, and I'm not afraid to go out and talk to people stuff like that. But I remember in the beginning of 90s, they had what they call the stay in school initiative, which was a national, Federal National Program. And I guess they had the CFL football teams going out and promoting stay in school in every province. So of course, in Manitoba, the blue bomb they had the Blue Bombers had that role. So I got invited by the federal government to come to a press conference, and it was at the charter house in the basement, and the lady that that was actually the manager of communications, was a lady named Mary Scott. So I remember so, so I went there, and then she introduced me to a guy who's who's probably the same size as me, and I made a joke. I said, Hey. I said, you and I are going to see eye to eye. I told them, hey, that was Trevor Kenner thing. Okay, yeah. So I got, I got permission from, from from, from the department, to travel with the Blue Bombers for next couple of years. But bombers were having a difficult time going into they said, they said that when they went into, when they flew into a community, or went traveled up north of community. They didn't feel very welcome there. They didn't feel that, that that there's no connection and people, people just kind of kind of stayed away from them. So they asked me if I if I would be interested in traveling with them and doing that introduction. And by that time, because I was in Dauphin in residential school, and a block away from my foster home was. Was Mackay residential school and so. So all the time I was there, I spent most of my time at the residential school, you know, playing hockey, football, baseball, whatever. So that's where I got to know all my northern friends, and many became leaders and that. So, yeah, so I knew a lot of people already in most of the northern communities. So we traveled all, all all over the north. And I'll share a quick story with you. Remember, we went up to, I think we went up to Rankin inlet, or someplace up there. We flew up there and, and I think there's James Murphy was there, football players, yes. And then Gordon sinker was there. Anyways, we flew in. We flew into this community, and we get there and, and then they take us to the school. Then there's, you know, let's maybe 200 kids in the gymnasium. And while we're, while we're walking into the gymnasium, you can hear all the kids like talking and screaming and having a good time. So as soon as we walked into the gymnasium, it went really, just totally quiet. And they're looking at us and, and I thought they're looking at Chris wall, because, you know, he was a giant thing. Yeah, it was a native woman to us. She said these kids never seen a black person before. They said,

Stuart Murray  16:12  
Wow, isn't that interesting? That? James Murphy,

Clayton Sandy  16:15  
yeah. James Murphy. So just Yeah. So James is all like James and I became really good friends and and, of course, he always shared his his experience growing up in Florida, and he shared his experience of, you know, remembering he, he still remembers when they had, they had the segregated washrooms down there and Uber so he so, he knows he knew what racism was all about, right? So, so yeah, so he had it. So yeah, so he and so we always, you know, because he's black and I'm indigenous, we always tease each other stuff like that. And he took it in stride. And, you know, the kids wanted to come and touch him, and he wanted to touch his hair, stuff like that. So it was, it was a really cool time.

Stuart Murray  16:53  
You and I have had many breakfasts and we've shared this, and I just think it's important for anybody listening to this. You say you've never experienced so much racism until you got to government. Did you have any sense when they were interviewing you or looking at to bring you in as a position, that that was something, had you heard of that were you did this catch you completely by surprise? Because I just wonder. You know, in fairness to you, whoever hired you, you know? I mean, that's a they put you in a very, very difficult position. I mean, you're going to go in there and say, Look, I'm a trained professional, and I'm a photographer. I've got some skills to show and and instead of being advanced and helped and to promote your professional career, you run up against the wall of racism. So why do you get a sense of your thoughts, I guess, of why was that? Why is that?

Clayton Sandy  17:46  
Well, when I first started my career, when I went back to school, went went back to school as an adult, I met a I met a gentleman. Is his dad was actually his dad was a judge in Manitoba, Ian dubiansky. So Ian. Ian's son was Peter, and Peter became he was my he was my manager, my project manager when and the program was with then Peter and I became friends, and Peter became my mentor for the next, next 38 years, I hung around with Peter, and he introduced me to all kinds of people, and all non native people. They're all nice people, like they're all kind and accepting me stuff like that. And so I just assumed everybody was the same. He's the one that actually kind of encouraged me to get into government. He was working for government. And I remember my first office was, was on century Street, 10 or seven century Street, and there's one other native person there ready. And I think I've introduced it to him. His name was Jack mercerty. And yeah, so Jack was there already, and I remember, so, yeah, so that's where Jack and I met, and he was the only indigenous person there, and then, and then him and I became good friends. But I remember, and you got to get also to I come from a large family. I have eight older brothers. We always like to fight all the time. I mean, because we went to we went to school on the army base, and we all went to the same school, Brook school, they called it. And whenever racism happened, my brothers would beat the crap out of somebody, or that was always going on, I learned to fight. Learn to fight when, when I was younger, yeah, and I wasn't, I wasn't scared to and I always remember my mom said to us, since Kenny is still instilled into us that you know life's going to be hard, and then you're going to find people that are going to not like you, and doesn't matter how big they are, don't back down from them, and then if they crap on you once, they'll crap on you three, four or five times. I wasn't afraid to take them on. Yeah, Jack and I started hanging out together, and he was, I think he was there maybe about a year before, and Jack was what they call, that the eponymous, and that the eponymous is somebody who does, who does Lake names and, you know, and Jack was actually probably one of the people responsible for all the indigenous names we have on the maps today. Yeah. So Jack was actually his job was to travel throughout the province with, with, with, with the surveyors. And his job was to. Was, was to interview communities, and especially elders, as to as to how that community got developed, and the traditional names and around that. So all those traditional names we see on maps today, and some of them are like this long Jack was responsible for that, and then as a cartographer, we were responsible for putting those names on a map.

Stuart Murray  20:19  
You know, just as you sort of talk and weave and talk about your history, which is incredible, I do want to kind of bring it back to, you know, the issue that brown that is going to happen around orange shirt day. And I wanted to kind of get a sense from you, you know, what does orange shirt Day mean to you personally, when

Clayton Sandy  20:39  
was so, when I when I worked in government, and then I started moving different departments. I hadn't had an opportunity to take some training at the Civil Service Commission. And at that time, we didn't have laptops or computers. We had hard copy. So remember, they had a book that went around, a book that came around departments from the Civil Service Commission, and I guess in that book was all kinds of courses. If you want to enhance your skills, you can apply to civil service for a one or two or three day course. So I went through it, and I saw a course there. It was called dealing with Native people,

Stuart Murray  21:13  
yeah, yeah. No kidding, yeah. For sure, you better sign up for that one Clayton, yeah.

Clayton Sandy  21:18  
So anyways, I applied for it, and they let me go to the two day course. And I was more interested in the material, and I think I was more interested in who was delivering the course. So we get the Civil Service Commission on Carleton Street, and there's about, you know, about 30 non native people sitting in the room there. And of course, I'm the only indigenous. And then it was, you know, nine o'clock, and we're still waiting for the instructor to show show up, and all sudden, this non native guy stands up, a young Polish guy, and he's the instructor, yeah, and his name was Dennis, and Dennis and I became a really good friend. So I, so I, he taught me quite a bit. And then after I finished that, and then, and then, and everything he talked about was, you know, he talked a little, he he didn't know a lot of the history, but he, he shared little bits and pieces. And the bits and pieces really started, started making sense to me about the impact of policies and residential schools and what we see today on the street. And then so I so after the course, I went and I went and approached the assistant up the minister, and I said, this is wrong to have a have a Polish guy deliver this course. And then, and he was kind of cocky as well. He didn't say that, but he the way he the way he was sounding. What you think is so good, why don't you do it? And I said, Yeah, well, so call me over here. So that's what they did. So I went over there, and so I developed two courses for them. I took that title of dealing with Native people out, and I revamped that course, and I called it communicating effectively with Native people. And then they did another course called Walk a Mile in my moccasins. I asked them, it was possible if I could deliver this course in government in every department that deals with Native people, like Family Services and became health? They said, Yeah, so I did that for the next probably 18 months, and I booked up all the time. But I think that was sort of, that was sort of my journey towards learning about myself, because I found that whatever, you know, whatever I was teaching in that I was finding a people, I was learning just as much as anybody else around the table. Then all of a sudden, all the stuff about my family residential school started coming, making really clear to me about what the impact on my my parents, my community, and I don't know if I mentioned six of my siblings went to brutal residential school, so it kind of came clear to me how often say I grew up in a family that just kind of like turned upside down, and because I grew up in a family of a lot of violence, racism, alcoholism, sexual abuse, everything. And so that really came clear to me. And then I looked around my community, and then it was the same thing. And so I really wanted to learn more. So I so actually started, actually started, started taking, taking courses. And of course, we couldn't take courses online, but I was phoning and finding people. I found a professor in Lethbridge, and so I connected with him, and he was actually Lakota. He was from South Dakota, and him and I became good friends. So he really taught me a lot about, about about the impact and and the policies, the impact of residential school, and when, when, when I to go back to, when, when my when my grandmother had to send her daughters to residential school, like to to the young sisters were missing. A and this was probably like in the late 30s. And so I used to always hear my mom talk about that. So me and a cousin of mine who passed away a couple years ago, him and I made a path like, probably like in this in the late 70s, 80s, that we try and find those, those two of those two aunties of ours. And then, so, yeah, so then, so I think it was maybe 2017 we're sending messages out about anybody knew about, about, you know, Dora or Clara wambadi. And then we get a call one in 2017 from a lawyer from Florida. They had just buried her in Florida.

Stuart Murray  24:55  
One of them had been married, yeah, yeah,

Clayton Sandy  24:56  
yeah, yeah. They just, they just buried Dora in in four. Florida, how that came about was and the story that this lady knew she was, she was a lawyer for Dora and her husband for many years. So I guess Dora wound up in Michigan, and that's where she grew up. Her husband to be. I guess he ran a dairy farm, and they had no kids, and they both retired, and they moved to Florida, and then he passed away first. Then when she passed away, her marriage certificate had Doria Wamba D on there, and they didn't know where she came from. So they started doing a search, and it went back to Sioux Valley. So they contacted, they contacted the rusty and I so, so low, we contact lawyer. So the lawyer gave, lawyer gave us as much information as possible about Dora and the other one, Clara, we never found in. And then, of course, that when, you know, when, when they found all the graves, all the graves in BC, and my mom always told us that, you know, people were dying in brand residential schools, like babies and kids, and babies were being born and people were being buried there. So she was telling us this, probably like in the 50s and 60s. At that time, nobody would listen, and whatever. And then, so it wasn't surprised to me when all these, all these graves were found and, and then it made me wonder about my other auntie, Clara, if she was maybe buried in Brandon some place, or I, you know, I don't know when they found all the graves. And and then the horn, the orange t shirt, became very prevalent in that and so I really, I really took an interest. And I wanted to, I want to I want to get involved in all that. And I think most of my career was basically, you know, educating people about, not only, not only residential schools, but about what my culture and and so. So I think it was maybe, I think maybe in the middle, early 90s, I started my own company nationally. And I actually, actually, I was, I was offering two day indigenous course. And I think I educated most of all, all the national banks. And like all the banks went, took my course, and and Public Service Commission CMHC took my course. So I was traveling across Canada, educating people about, about working with indigenous people. So, so and then, then, then again, I was meeting a lot of indigenous people, and then I was learning more and more and more. But then, yeah, so, then, yeah, so, and then, but all the way through my life, I have two boys, but all of my boys have always, I've always heard my story all the time. I always shared my story about my, you know, my aunts and my mom and my my community, and everything, everything, everything that you know, that history, and when I start sharing that history, I think that was around maybe 1981 or 82 and then my father, through Mary Scott and the group, we went up to Churchill one time and and we were doing a presentation there, and he asked me, because Churchill, a lot of indigenous people of there, they wanted to hear about my and my story as well, not not just me, me working in government. So I started sharing my story, and people got really interested in my story. And the story I shared was similar to this, but I was sharing just a story about about, you know, just witnessing violence, violence all the way growing up, and how I never wanted to be like that. And so, yeah, so they recorded the story, then they asked me if they could publish the story. And I said, Yeah, go ahead and said, I actually didn't know that they're going to publish it and go national with it. So anyway, so So my auntie and BC, BC read it and see my dad is living in Washington state, so she cut it out and took it down to my dad. And my dad got really upset about that. And what I had said, what was there about my father? I said, I My father is a veteran. He was a hard worker and but when he was drinking, he was a very angry man. And I grew up in a home with, you know, with with him, I don't know, you know, how many times I witnessed him put my mom in the hospital, that's what's written. So my aunt took it down to him, and that was around maybe 8182 so from there, he quit talking to me, and my father liked pow wows and stuff like that. So the next 40 years, you know, I traveled to the states to power. Any place I rent him, he wouldn't talk to me. I'd go up to him and talk to him, and he get upset with me, you know? And yes, so he never talked to me right up, right up till tell the time he died.

Stuart Murray  29:07  
Yeah. So Clayton, you know, it is an incredible journey, an incredible story, and, and, you know, I think when I asked you to come onto this podcast, I said, you know, I want you to do exactly what you're doing, tell your story. This is you don't. You're not. I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of any organization or anything. This is just, you know, Clayton Sandy's journey. But you know, your insight is so compelling, and I guess it's one of the reasons that I wanted to really get your thoughts on. You know, you, you're, you're an educator. You teach people. And so if somebody were to ask you, you know, what is it important for all Canadians to understand the legacy of residential schools in the context of of why this day, orange shirt day is, is such an amazing part of it is, and I, you know, I always sort of say orange shirt day, you know, it's not about a day. Day. You know, it's not about a day, but, but, you know, the fact is, is that you know that maybe that's a star Clayton that there, there's a day that has been recognized, etc. What would you like Canadians to take away from? At least, the beginning of trying to understand of, why do we have an orange shirt day? What would you like Canadians to take away from that?

Clayton Sandy  30:20  
Many times in my presentations. And I still say that today. I still think white people are scared of Indians, you know, and because, because, usually they see the worst of us all the time, and then they think we're all like that, but, but we're not. I do work with Main Street project, and I connected to Shalom. And when I look at their annual reports and they they say they feel that, you know, there's about maybe 2200 indigenous people that use the services downtown, and it's all the same people. And then when in Winnipeg, you know, which is known as the largest reserve in Canada, we have like 110,000 native people here. And not all of us are on Main Street and downtown. So people, so, so we have like, 2000 on Main Street. Where's the 100? Where's the other 108,000, so I tried to tell non native people to think about that, like, where are we? Like, we're all over the place. Like, I love living and living in Winnipeg, because I can go anywhere in Winnipeg. I can run to a native person. And I've traveled across Canada and some cities you never see and you never see an indigenous person. And so people just need to try to not, you know, not think about that what they see, you know, at the bus, at a bus shack, or on the street, whatever. And there's a reason why people are there. But you know, most, most, most Canadians, the history that they learned about indigenous people and, you know, and their education is the same, same education that I learned as well about it about myself, and it wasn't, it wasn't accurate, and it wasn't written by us. So I tell people, you know, if you want to learn about us, talk to indigenous people. You know, watch APTN and, you know, listen to our stories, because we have a lot to offer, just that we're never been actually offered to come in and share stories. And that was the purpose. That was the purpose of the Truth and Reconciliation was basically for us to tell us to tell our truth, and then the other part is basically to to wait for non existent people to open up and start, start, start reconciling with us, and we're still waiting for that. I had, I had the opportunity to travel with the truth and reconciliation. I grew up across Canada, and I was sharing my story, and I heard 1000s of stories of you know, people you know across Canada, and yeah, and yeah, so, so I think we kind of bared our souls to Canadians, and now we're waiting for reciprocation to basically to happen. And and don't be afraid of us, and just get to know us for who we are, because, yeah, we're no different than you

Stuart Murray  32:41  
are. How can we, you know, I know it sounds simple, like, how do we get to get to a position where we are are on the same level as indigenous peoples that, you know, it's not just a saying, it's not just a comment, but it's actual, real life. How do we start that process? How do we start to work through that. I mean, the Truth and Reconciliation, you know, I had a part of it as well. When I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. It was amazing. And as I shared with you, I grew up in Punisher Saskatchewan, there were, there were four reserves around where we lived and and I guess the question is that the people that have one view of native people, and it's the wrong view, you know it, and they can't seem to get lift themselves out of that. What? How you know so you know you and you speak to 1000s and 1000s of people. What message would you like to get on on a day when orange shirt Day is coming up? What message would you like people that are listening to this podcast to say, I have to open up my heart and my mind to understand what it is that we how we need to observe and work with and respect, give respect to First Nations peoples, because they're Canadians also

Clayton Sandy  33:50  
through our age we, you know, we at one time, we grew up around horses, eh? And so I always tell people, You ever see those horses with the blinders on? Yeah, take off your blinders, take up your blinders and open up your mind. And don't be afraid to come to a powwow or gathering and or, you know, to just to come, come out and participate in something. Because if you go, if you if you Google orange T Shirt Day right now, you'll find 1000s events going on across Canada. Come out and participate. Come and talk. And I just finished a course two days ago, and I had a guy that followed up with an email yesterday, and he asked me if I can send him some resources and videos. So I did that, and then I challenged him to to go to the forks on Orange T Shirt Day and march with the people. And if a non native person asks you what you do, and they're telling you, you know, you want to become an ally. You don't know, and just tell the truth. I want to support somehow, and I don't know how to and this is so I'm here. Can somebody help me get educated, and then I'll march with you, you know? And I told him to well, March with March. Are the people from the forks to the MTS, and have they're having a power there, taking the power when, like I organized, you know, some an international gathering here, many national gatherings. And we always encourage, encourage, we've tried to encourage non native people to come and attend, but we always have a difficult time getting the people that should be there, like you get people in different parts of Winnipeg. I used to have non native, non native friends that would support, support me. And I remember one lady in particular. She said, you know? She said, You know, when I travel on Winnipeg, I can actually go around the perimeter and not see Native people if I don't want to, you know? And she said, I don't have to see that. She said, If I but I don't have to go down Main Street or Portage Avenue, I can circle places, and I don't have to see that, she said, But I go down there to remind myself that people need help, and people are people like people don't realize sometimes we're people and and it just that the history we've we've had, it isn't a good history, but we're still here, and we're not going anywhere. And, you know, our population is growing. They're just no magic solution, just about respect and bring, bring your guard down, your fear down, like we're not going to we're not going to rob you or rape you or fight you or anything, just come out.

Stuart Murray  36:12  
Yeah, you know the fact is, is that you know you were honored at the University of Winnipeg to give an honorable Doctorate of Laws. You've been asked to sit on the foundation of the Winnipeg foundation. You've been asked to sit on the board of the Saint Boniface hospital because of who you are and what you have established in terms of your ability to teach and to share and to bring people along with your journey. And so, you know, and again, one of the challenges that I remember, I remember, I'm quoting Murray Sinclair, who talked about the seven generations that it took to get us here, and it's going to take that to actually get an understanding about reconciliation. You know, one of the challenges is in in sort of, you know, the white world. If I could use that term, Clayton, you know, they look at and say, like a long weekend is a long time. You know, you're talking seven generations. Can't even fathom that. How do we start to become an understanding? I mean, the fact that we I mean, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we think differently. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As a matter of fact, it's quite healthy, and you can learn in that process. But, but how do you how can you reflect and teach people you know that that the seven generations of healing is is positive, as opposed to saying, Wow, that's just, you know, I'll be dead before that happens, the answer is, you will be but it's a process. And how do you try to bring in sort of a culture that is not used to understanding that length of time and what that means, and how you become at peace? And you know, I just share this story Clayton, that one of the things that I learned when I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights is the power of silence. You know, we if there's silence, you know, people feel uncomfortable. You have to sort of say something, because silence is just not comfortable. But you know, I learned from a couple of elders, I learned from you that the silence is a powerful, powerful tool. So, you know, how do you when you get in front of a group of people like, how do you start the process of getting them to understand the importance of of your culture that will allow us to be a stronger human race?

Clayton Sandy  38:35  
Well, I let people know that I'm not there to blame anybody. The past is the past, and we can't do nothing but the past, or we can do something about the future. And I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable, but when you feel uncomfortable, you start learning. So don't be afraid to feel uncomfortable. And and, you know, and yeah, because a lot of times, some audiences, they never hear this stuff ever, and then they find it difficult to hear this stuff sometimes, but, but again, it's, it's what we live, what we've gone through. And I remember my, my, my, my mentor, Peter, he would say to me sometimes, you know, he said a bit, you, you know, people my age, if we went through half of the things that you've experienced, we would have committed suicide, or we would have been, we would have been dead long time ago. I don't know how you guys survived these things, right? We're resilient and but we're we're here to we're here to help you, if you if you want to be helped, and the only way. And I really encourage people to stand in their truth. If you can't stand in your truth, there's something wrong. And so I always tell people, you know, if you hear people talk about negative things, about indigenous people and stuff like that, say you met Clayton Sandy, you know he doesn't. He doesn't fit into that stereotype. And Clayton Sandy knows, in Winnipeg, he knows you know 80,000 additional people that are doing doing really well, their doctors or lawyers or dentists or homeowners, where you know we have mortgages, we have all that. We have that as well. And you know, when we have, you know children and grand. Children that we know we want to invest in their future. That sounds simple, but, but for some people, just they can't seem to take, to take the blinders off and and you know, like, like you go to certain segments of Winnipeg where you never sometimes, maybe the schools aren't, aren't. And I hear this from educators as well, teachers, especially, you know when you know when, when you know when, when they're doing stuff like orange T Shirt Day in, in that part of the city, it's kind of, they always say, like, it's, it's so sugar coated, it doesn't mean anything. And so rather than hear anything difficult, they just want to sugarcoat it. And and, yeah, we've done our thing, or we've checked the box off for that day, you know. And then so, but I think it's, it goes a lot further than that. And so all the people that I've known on my journey have actually got involved. And what I'll do for you is, and maybe I'll leave, I'll send you. I have about 35 action items that I put together. Anybody can, you know, can look at these action items and get involved if they want to get involved. Excellent.

Stuart Murray  40:58  
Yeah. And you know what? We'll put that into the podcast notes Clayton, because I do think that one of the things that, you know, we try on these, on these podcasts, if anybody's listening, because a lot of times people are listening and saying, I'd like to get involved. I don't know how to, you know, I mean, and they, they're genuine, they're looking at ways. So if you have have, you know that that would be a great way for us to give people an opportunity. And as you say, rather than just wearing an orange shirt for one day, here's a way to actually make a difference.

Clayton Sandy  41:28  
Sure, yeah, I wanted just to share like I retired from government after 40 years in 2016 and in 2016 myself and a retired professor started a program called circles for reconciliation. So what we did, we brought five indigenous people together, five non native people together with the facilitator, and we spent, I think was, 75 minutes a week for 10 weeks, and the first two years of that, of that project, I bet you probably everybody, all the non native people in the circle were probably 65 plus, and they're all seniors, and the most were, most of them from churches. And I would get baffled, because they're at, you know, seven or 6570 75 they knew nothing about my history, nothing about my history. After maybe four years of me doing that, that the age was getting younger and younger, and most of them were educated females that were wanting to get engaged and wanting to So, so we have a lot of allies in the female world that are that are getting younger and younger and yeah. So, so when I look at the universities and the colleges here, especially University of Winnipeg, you know it's mandatory now for them to take an indigenous, this indigenous introductory course. So those are the kind of things we need. And when, when I worked in government, I was always pushing for indigenous authors and video makers and stuff like that to have that in the in the curriculum.

Stuart Murray  42:50  
And they've, they've done that, right? I mean, that's another that's where you've made a that's where you've made a difference. Clayton, one of the things that, and this is not unnecessary around orange shirt day, per se. But you know, one of the things that you and I have shared with is the power of going to a sweat a sweat lodge. What you know, for those people that have never heard of a sweat lodge, what, what is the importance and the power of a sweat lodge?

Clayton Sandy  43:17  
Well, it's hard to answer that in, you know, five minutes, I tell people sometimes I'm going, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to church, I'm going to pray and but, but I'm going to pray in a different way and and in a different setting. And we always say that, you know, when, when we build a sweat lodge, it's, it's around round structure and all that. And it's like we always say, we're going back into our mother's womb for another short period of time. So we're going back into our into our mother's womb, and we're going to a place that's, you know, that all of us spent at some point, you know, and it was safe and and when, when we come out of there, well, when we're in there, we're asking, we're asking, we're praying in there, and we're praying our own language, or English, or whatever and all that, but we're asking creator to help us and But also we pray for everybody and everything. It's not, not just, just for us. So we're, and I always encourage young people to let go what they're carrying as well. Leave it in there. We call, we call the rocks grandfathers in there. And so we always say the grandfathers that we we know, we put their the rocks in the fire for a couple hours so they're red hot when they come in, when, when, when you take them out of the lodge. So I always tell them, the grandfathers are giving up their lives here for you to heal, let go in here. You know, I always tell, I tell people that, you know, government and policies have have taken our past away. We shouldn't allow it to take or take our future

Stuart Murray  44:33  
away. So, I mean, again, I it thanks for a very brief comment about something that is very emotional, very deep, very meaningful, and I've been blessed. I want to have one sweat with you, and you've offered we haven't been able to work it out. We'll get that done, Clayton, I know that'll happen. I you know, Clayton, we could go on forever. And you know, it's why I admire every time we have a chance to have breakfast, I always learn something from you. We have some laughs, which is. Important, you know, that's part of, that's part of life, which is great. I mean, we talk hockey, we talk about a lot of things about life. You know, this podcast was, you know, really, with a focus a bit on orange shirt day and, and I'd like to, you know, kind of, as they say, if you tip up that hourglass in the Sands of Time, start to run out on our conversation. If there was one thing that that you wanted to or that maybe I didn't ask you about orange shirt day, that somebody you know listening, if there was something you wanted to leave them with, something a message, a thought, a conversation, a story, what would that be?

Clayton Sandy  45:37  
Maybe close your eyes and put yourself in our shoes, having generations of of your of your parents and your aunties and uncles and your kids taken away from you, like my brother was taken away when he was five years old and went to bertle. He was there for 10 years, maybe so. So it's hard to imagine, because when that was sometimes, when I'm doing I ask people, How many of us have kids here or grandkids? And put up their hand. Can you imagine, you know, the government coming in and taking your child at five years old and not seeing them for 10 years? What kind of effect would that have on you? And what would you do about it? If you can't do nothing about it? You know, you'd either commit suicide, you drink, you probably give up and and that's what our people have done. And then, you know, residential school started in 1876 and the last one closed in Manitoba 1996 so look at all the year of our people going through there, and all the and, of course, everybody knows about the Truth and Reconciliation, the graves, the sexual abuse, everything that happened, all that. So it's there. Accept it. Then let's just move on together. Just the simplest way I can say it, I guess, yeah, yeah.

Stuart Murray  46:43  
It's because you have the ability, because you have discovered your journey, and you're so strong as an individual of who you are, you can say those things. And I think that that's an important distinction to make, because you've had some challenges in your life, but you know the you know, you've been able to see, to either forgive Clayton, or you've been able to understand that, you know, the past is the past, and what you're focused on is the future. And, you know, my friend, that takes a tremendous amount of strength, that takes a tremendous amount of strength. And, you know, I want to just, I want to say, thanks very much Clayton for finding some time to jump onto this podcast. One of the things I always sort of feel after we always push away from a conversation. I can't wait to the next conversation with you, because I know there will be certain things that that, of course, we didn't talk about. I've been just blessed. If there's one thing that I would say, covid was a challenge for many, many people, and it was some for not very good, but for me, personally, covid allowed me to meet you, and allowed you and I to start a friendship. And for that, I'm very, very grateful. And like on this podcast, I'm grateful that you would find the time to have this conversation with me. So thank you very, very much.

Clayton Sandy  47:59  
Well, I was want to say thank you for, you know, for connecting with me. And I think both of both you and I, we have similar journeys. We both work, our careers, were in government, and, you know, we had our highs and lows, and we never give up and, and it's always, you know, trying to encourage, encourage something better all the time. And that's, that's the connection that I made with you. And plus, you know, we like to talk, and we like to get along, and we'd like to see, see things change, and then, so, yeah, so I actually thank covid for I met many people in on covid, and yeah, so I'm really glad about that. So, so thank you so much, Stu for allowing me to come on and to share a little bit, a little bit of my story. But I encourage people just to try and listen to other people's other people's story, you know, and then you'll find that, you'll find that you'll find something in there that that that may touch you and may make you feel uncomfortable, but, but

Stuart Murray  48:51  
it's our truth. Yeah, for sure. Clayton, thanks so very much. Talk to you soon. Thank you.

Matt Cundill  48:57  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to humanrightshub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company in.