Carly Gray and Ron Thiessen: Land Stewardship and Environmental Education

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis Nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray  0:30  
Canadian parks and wilderness society, Manitoba chapter, or as they are known, as an acronym. Every organization has to have an acronym, it seems. C, paws, c, p, A, w, s, Manitoba is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the province's rich natural heritage as a part of a national network. C paws. Manitoba focuses on conserving Manitoba parks, forests, wetlands and wildlife by promoting the creation and effective management of protected areas working closely with local communities, indigenous partners, scientists and policy makers, C paws, Manitoba aims to ensure that future generations can continue to enjoy the province's incredible landscapes, from the boreal forests and freshwater lakes to the vast northern wilderness, through education, advocacy and community engagement. C paws Manitoba plays a vital role in shaping a sustainable future for nature in the province. So that's what the organization is about. And I am delighted today to be joined by two members of that C paws organization, Ron Thiessen, the executive director, and Carly Gray, the environmental education manager. So welcome to humans on rights. And before I get to you, Carly Ron, tell me a little bit about yourself and maybe explain what you do. Certainly,

Ron Thiessen  1:53  
yes, as you mentioned, I'm Ron Thiessen. I'm the Executive Director of C paws, Manitoba. I've been with C pause since 2006 so next year I'll be celebrating my my 20th anniversary there, and it's been an amazing adventure so far, and we've worked really hard to help establish new parks and protected spaces for nature here in Manitoba, to serve Manitobans today, but also for future generations, for all the activities that people enjoy out in the land, whether it's hiking, biking, hunting, fishing, just sitting on the shoreline, and restoring our faith in humanity, taking some deep breaths. So right now, 11% of Manitoba, wildlands and waters are protected for nature and for people and wildlife, and we're looking to get to 30% of Manitoba by 2030 which is in line with the provincial government's mandate. So we're looking to support that.

Stuart Murray  2:46  
Okay, well, I mean lots to talk about there. Ron and again, thank you for for jumping on. Welcome to humans on right. So I want to bring on our other guest, Carly Gray, who's the environmental education manager. And Carly, before I ask you a little bit about your background, I know you would like to make a land acknowledgement so so please do that, and then we'll get into a quick intro of you

Carly Gray  3:05  
absolutely Stuart, thank you so much for having me on your podcast today. And honestly, as I look outside, I see the beautiful change that our earth is going through currently. I feel the change in the air, in the sun. I'm noticing all the green that's coming up, especially my front lawn. It's amazing how that's changed over the week, and this newness and this freshness always brings me a renewed sense of alignment to what my purpose is here, as the environmental educator for C paws, but as a human being on this earth, and one part of that is I love taking the time to notice how beautiful everything is in the natural world. And with that noticing, I bring in the remembering of the importance of aligning with the treaties of the land that we're living on and the treaties that the land's been agreed to. So we are located on treaty one territory, and we work through ancestral lands of multiple treaty areas. It's the heartland of the Red River Metis. It is the ancestral lands of the Anishinaabe, anishinawak, mihitawak, asinanu, Dakota, ayote, Dene, Selene and Inuit peoples. That enriches the land that we work on. It enriches the history and the culture of what we call Canada today, and I want to encourage that, that we not only notice the change, we not only notice the importance and align with that importance, but we call ourselves to action. For people of reconciliation, the land that we are on today could not look like the land that we're on if it was not stewarded since time immemorial, and especially with the work that I do, I feel called to ensure that I'm moving forward in a way that honors reconciliation but also honors the histories and cultures of the land that I'm a settler on. So. So thank you so much for having us today, and I look forward to sharing a little bit more about that call to action that I feel when I share about connecting to the natural world.

Stuart Murray  5:10  
Yeah, to make a quick comment, Carly, a lot of people read a land acknowledgement. It's not a criticism, it's simply an observation. I think people always want to get it right. They want to try and do their best when they're doing a land acknowledgement to get it right, I would suggest that your land acknowledgement comes from the heart, and it's very well done. So you know, thank you for sharing. It's great. It's a great way to start this podcast.

Carly Gray  5:29  
Thank you so much. Couldn't read that if I tried?

Stuart Murray  5:34  
Exactly, yeah, hey, Ron, just a little bit about, I mean, your background, something is very much a part of your DNA when you talk about saving the wilderness, whether it's you know, sort of parks, rivers, streams, etc. What drew you to becoming involved with C pause and obviously finding yourself in the position, a leadership position as executive director?

Ron Thiessen  5:56  
Well, I had the blessing of, at a very early age, being taken out into nature, quite often, largely through family fishing trips, and I wander off into the bush in my own and through my teen years, I kind of lost that connection. And through post secondary, and then I met this wonderful woman who I started dating, who was a real nature lover, and got me out into nature. And shortly after that, I joined just as a part time job after post secondary with a local environmental organization, and a lot of what they had said, and a lot of the conversations that we had really resonated with me in terms of, you know, the need to ensure that Earth's life support systems are there for us now in the future. So of course, the key ones, clean air, clean water, climate moderation, wildlife and just ensuring we have a healthy path going forward. So I worked in a couple of environmental organizations before I joined C pause in 2006 they invited me to come on board as the executive director, and after I stood that over for a while, I I happily joined, and I'm glad I did, because it's been an amazing experience so far, and we've accomplished quite a

Stuart Murray  7:00  
lot well, just on that, I'd like to pick up on that you obviously have accomplished quite a lot, you know, when I went on to your website. And you know, we'll put a lot of this stuff into the show notes. So anybody who's listening to this will know to where the C pause website is, because it's a very robust website. You've got a lot of great information on there. You mentioned Ron that you're looking at, sort of 30 by 30. And I think just, I want to make sure I get this right, 30% of land is to be would I use the correct word? If I said protected? Is that the right word? That would be so 30% and you said that currently there's 11% so can you just sort of build up to when was it zero? And how did it get to 11? Just to give us a sense of what does that mean, then to go from 11 to 30.

Ron Thiessen  7:42  
Well, our first Provincial Park or protected area here in Manitoba was in the 1960s like 65 or 66 if my memory serves me correctly, around that time anyway, and that's when our provincial parks system network began here in Manitoba, and spread it from there. We have over 90 provincial parks now, as well as a suite of other protected areas, like wildlife management areas, in some cases Ecological Reserves. We have a couple of national parks here in Manitoba, of course, as well. So sorry, could you repeat the question again? I got a little carried away, and, no,

Stuart Murray  8:14  
not a problem. I just wondered. I mean, you just because I know that you know 30 by 30, it's a great target, 30% by 2030 and you mentioned we were at 11% just trying to figure out incrementally, at some point it was zero, and now it's at 11, and now you gotta go to 30. So just trying to get a sense of how does that build out look like?

Ron Thiessen  8:32  
Yeah, we've got a long way to go and a short time to get there. If you look at the history right, it's taken us 60 years to get to 11% 60 plus years. And good news is, is there's a lot of conservation initiatives happening now here in Manitoba that have a great opportunity to get us there. So, you know, back in 2023 when we were, you know, working to convince the provincial parties running in the 2023 election to adopt 30 by 30 as a goal, which we were successful in getting three out of the four parties to do part of that was demonstrating to them, how can we get there? Is this even realistic? And fortunately, we were able to develop sort of a roadmap that shows that with current conservation initiatives on the table right now, if they all came to fruition, we would get to over 40% now, the reality of it is not all of those are going to come to fruition, but it shows that there's a pathway to get to 30% and a big component of that is what's referred to as Indigenous Protected and conserved areas, which the federal government started funding indigenous nations in 2019 to identify areas they would like to secure for nature and for culture and begin working on Those to establish them as indigenous, protected and conserved areas, and working with, of course, Crown governments to ensure that all parties involved kind of respect the boundaries as well as the the rules that go along with them. And of course, a lot of these are co developed with Crown governments along the way as well. So one of the things that we have going in Manitoba right now is the seal. River watershed, Indigenous Protected Area initiative in northern Manitoba, up by the Nunavut border and west of Churchill. This is a huge area. It's 50,000 square kilometers. So that's, that's the size of Nova Scotia. Just to put that into a context, almost pristine this area, over 97% of it is intact. It's never been developed. It's never been, you know, no roads, no mines, no forestry, etc. And so I'm looking to add that to the protected areas network here in Manitoba, and that that area alone would add another 7% to that 11% so right there, at that successful we're at 18% and that initiative is going along very well. Both the federal government and the Manitoba government are on board with it. They're moving it forward, and it's looking like it's going to be a grand success.

Stuart Murray  10:48  
Excellent. So again, not to get hung up on numbers for a second, Ron, but when you talk about 11% on the seal River Project, which, sorry, am I getting that right with you? Said it's about the size of Nova Scotia, the seal River Project, and that would add how much to the year, 11% did you say,

Ron Thiessen  11:03  
Yeah, that would add that would get us to approximately 18%

Stuart Murray  11:07  
Yeah. So then just, kind of, just to sort of give a visual for a second. So what would 30% look like in the province of Manitoba? I mean, when you equated that area to say the Province of Nova Scotia, can kind of get a sense of that if you look at a map, what would 30% roughly look like?

Ron Thiessen  11:24  
That's a really great question. So that would be roughly, oh, I don't have to figure out the top my head, but I think it's 121,000 square kilometers in and around there, if my memory serves me correctly. You know, that's about two and a half times the size of Nova Scotia. No,

Stuart Murray  11:38  
no. Fair enough. I just know it's a substantial piece of land, but, you know, Manitoba is a big, big province, and you know, I've had the fortune, and I hope anybody's listening to this also has had the fortune of going up to Churchill. And you know, when you take a moment and you get out and you see the landscape, and if you're fortunate enough to see any of the things that it makes Churchill such a rich environment, whether it's the beluga whales or whether it's the polar bears or the Northern Lights and many other things. There's a lot of fauna out there also. But you know, at one point you have to sort of stop and pinch yourself and say, we're still in Manitoba, like when you think about the urban elements that you know we see on a daily basis. And then you get a chance to see that. So, you know, I appreciate you bringing that forward. And one of the questions maybe to you Carly, is, you know, what are the elements that when you get into having conversations with communities about protecting wildlife, I think sometimes you know, even I'll just say, when I started to read a little bit about what you're doing, I wondered about how those who might be opposed to what you're doing. Do they understand what it is you're trying to do that? Maybe their opposition is maybe not well understood or well informed. So from your perspective, from an environmental education manager, what are some of the key elements that you try to bring to the conversation to make sure that people that might have concerns have a sense of what is really trying to happen? Absolutely

Carly Gray  13:01  
so I think one of the beautiful things about being a human on this earth is the constant process of learning and unlearning that we go through, just in terms of science education and environmental literacy. There's a lot of core components that I feel students today are really familiar with, but oftentimes they get lost as we grow up into adulthood. Part of that is maintaining biodiversity and the importance of biodiversity in an ecosystem. You know, I talked to grade 10s about biodiversity, and they're like, yes, absolutely, every species has an important role. Every piece is crucial, and they're advocates, and they're excited about it. And then, you know, you have a conversation with Amanda Tobin about a mosquito, and they're like, well, those things gotta go. So that's one core component of what we do. And looking at habitats as the large areas that have so many deep interconnections within them, so many deep relationships, and the larger the habitat that is protected, the larger impact that has in maintaining that biodiversity, which is the Earth's resilience, the Earth's system of resilience. Oftentimes, too, we think, you know a habitat, oh, we give, you know an animal this small space. They can deal with that. But the fact of it is, they were here first, and they don't really know our boundaries. They don't really know the small squares that we tend to put them in in the same way. So it doesn't necessarily work that cut and dry and that easy as we often think it does.

Stuart Murray  14:30  
Yeah, and I think that that therein lies, you know, so many things that happen in any conversation. It's about communication and understanding and allowing those who may have concerns to say, you know, the floor is yours, like we let's make sure that you're heard, because only through that process can you start to bring people together. And you know, as I followed some of the meetings that you've been having, you know, you get a sense that, you know, a lot of people who might come in and sort of think that they're this room is divided. You start. To see where the the commonality is in the piece, but that comes through the education piece, which is something that you're obviously overseeing. How have you found the process since you've been at C pause Carly to sort of make sure that those conversations are held in a very sort of, I'll just say, safe space where people feel that they can have a good conversation, and at the end of it, there's good learning, and everybody has a chance to participate.

Carly Gray  15:25  
Yeah, absolutely, I think the key piece is having people a part of the conversation and to feel heard. Land is one of the most contentious topics I think we can talk about, especially looking at, you know, what happened upon colonization of this place that we live in, right land has been a huge topic for forever, it seems. So we want to make sure that everyone is heard and is a part of the conversation we've had with these public engagements. That's a key component, but also ensuring that people are giving us feedback on the survey, giving us feedback on our maps, giving us feedback on what they want to see a protected area look like, because protection is for everybody. When it comes to conservation, it's for us to continue to habit this beautiful planet. It's for every piece of wildlife to still have a home to live in, for us to honor that wildlife in all the ways that humans do, from nature photography to hunting to angling, all of that. It's it's a key piece. It's a part of all of our humanity. And I think one thing that I notice in my work, I work especially with kids, but I've been expanding a bit more on the community level, is just how inherently all humans, regardless of our background, regardless of where we've come from. We are connected to nature, and we all have a feeling and an internal responsibility to it. And I think that is a really powerful piece. And I think as much as we can unify that voice and unify that to protect and to take care of the world that we're living in, I think that is such a strong and powerful thing to do, and I feel that way. When I get kids out into the natural world, I feel that unifying sense. You know, kids who maybe don't even speak English already feel that deep connection to a world, even if they can't express it. And I, I think, you know, that's mostly what I'm familiar with. But when we zoom out and we see how important that connection to nature is to all humans. If we can find places or find the common ground to have those discussions, I think that's, that's a really great place to start.

Stuart Murray  17:31  
Ron, did you want to jump in on that?

Ron Thiessen  17:34  
Sure. I'll jump in on that a little bit. And thanks for that. Carly, that's, that's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I think a big part of the work that we're doing is trying to strike a balance on the landscape between conservation and sustainable developments. We are not against development. We are we use wood, we use paper. I've got critical minerals in my phone, so certainly that's that's something that I overlook. And what I want to say is, going into these community meetings, I think that what's really valuable. If we can bring the conversation to a starting place of, let's talk about our values. Let's talk about our interests. Because we don't want to start in a position of where people, in fact, come in with positions. Rather, we want to dial that back, if we can, because often when you get to the place of discussing people's values and interests, it's determined that there's actually multiple pathways to achieve those interests and to make sure that people's values are secured in the place in which they live. And you know, it's also really good too, I find to be very clear. You know, we go in and we're speaking about a particular initiative or a particular project, to state what is this initiative about, and more importantly, or just as importantly, what it's not we find. And going back to what Carly said, just listening, make sure we're really trying to understand, often repeating or summarizing their question back to them before we answer, to make sure we got it right before we respond. I think those are all helpful tools to advance things.

Stuart Murray  18:59  
So this may sound like a bit of a loaded question, not meant to be, but you know, it seems to me that the role that C pause is taking in terms of trying to protect our land, and I mean, you partner with so many organizations, which I think is fantastic, but is there, you know, sort of, I'm just trying to imagine myself at one of these meetings, and you know, maybe sitting there with my arms crossed, I'm a participant, not sure, but, you know, part of me wants to say, you know, can I trust you? You know? And so you're looking at an organization who started saying, Here's what we want to do, and it's not just us, it's other organizations. I mean, you know, you've got indigenous, led people, you know, sitting with you. You've got other organizations that are part of it. So just from your perspective, Ron, as somebody who's executive director, how do you sort of go about ensuring that you know people can trust your organization?

Ron Thiessen  19:48  
Once again, I'd mentioned, you know, making sure we have clear communication. What is this about? What is it not about? And also, I think familiarity builds trust. It's a strong component. Anyway. Getting to know each other as people. So often, it's more than just one conversation that's required to get an understanding and to earn that trust or build that trust with people. And as you get to know each other as people, to some extent, it helps to lubricate those conversations in a honest and truthful way where people can begin to feel trust, and you're part of that is just them understanding where you're coming from, and you understanding where they're coming from.

Stuart Murray  20:27  
Ron and just for you for a second again, just, you know, we're Manitoba is at 11% currently on sort of a pathway to 30% by 2030 how would we compare to, you know, say, our neighbors to each side of us, just to give us a sense to Saskatchewan or Ontario, in terms of where are they at in their journey of 30 to 30?

Ron Thiessen  20:47  
Well, we are ahead of percentage wise of both Saskatchewan and Ontario right now, which makes Manitoba look really great, if you look at it in that particular context. In terms of Canada wide, though we're middle of the pack. So you see provinces like BC, which are over 20% Nova Scotia, the same, and also Northwest Territories. And then you see other provinces, and I don't remember the percentage in Saskatchewan, but it's quite low. I think it's maybe 4% but don't quote me on that. So certain jurisdictions are more advanced than others on that as a way that I would put it. And what maybe not everyone knows in Canada is that the natural resources as the management of natural resources, so therefore land and water is the responsibility primarily of the provinces and the territories. And of course, the federal government has their influence on that, but the decisions are made at a provincial or territorial level. So it's not surprising that some jurisdictions are no have a higher percentage than others.

Stuart Murray  21:47  
Yeah. And I, you know, I mean, as a nation, it's interesting to have a a national goal. Not surprising, people are in different places. I am a little surprised to just uh about here, about Saskatchewan. I'm not going to say the number again, but the fact that it's less than Manitoba, because I see our provinces, you know, quite similar in terms of, you know, the agriculture base that we have, some of the resources, minerals that we have in the ground, the water, you know, and a lot of hunt fish that takes place in both provinces. So, you know, again, not getting your peacock feathers up or anything like that. But you know, it shows that the organization has really establishing itself as what I come back to at the beginning when I said about trustworthy, clearly, that establishment is there, and you're working hard as an organization to do that. So congratulations on that part, Ron, to you and your team. You know, Carly education. You know, always sort of think that it's one of the most important elements of society. You know, an educated society doesn't mean that everybody agrees, but at least you have a knowledge and an understanding. You do a lot of work around the reconciliation piece with respect to what C pause does. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing with respect to reconciliation in your work?

Carly Gray  22:57  
Absolutely, I think in education we have, there's a big push towards incorporating indigenous perspectives into what we're educating. I'm a teacher on paper, so I try and, you know, pull from what teachers are doing and where we're going, but we actually do have a responsibility to the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to be educating people on treaty information, but also to be moving forward in a way that honors truth and to make sure that that doesn't get lost. So what I'm indicating with that is I often go somewhere and I try to, I try to switch up land acknowledgement in a way, because land acknowledgement, as you said earlier isn't just words that we say at the beginning of a day or at the beginning of an event. Land acknowledgement is actually kind of an eternal practice that you're building your relationship with the land and on the land. Land acknowledgement, you know, in its more earlier sense, was acknowledging whose territory you were on and saying, Hey, I'm here. This is your territory. And moving forward in a good way. And what we do now, we've kind of adopted it in a colonial sense, is to kind of face the colonial erasure of land and the colonial concept of what we're doing, and to kind of stop and say, Look, I don't want to go any further before I say this happened, here's the truth, and how can I call myself to do better? Because I now know this truth. So you know, incorporating that into my work, I cannot do environmental education without honoring the knowledge that this land holds. I cannot do environmental education without amplifying the voices of the knowledge keepers and elders that I've had the pleasure of connecting within the communities that I work in and that, you know, are in the local area of treating one so those are parts. A lot of it is an internal it's an internal work. I think I can do a lot. To share and to educate and to decolonize the way that I deliver information, so I don't teach in a classroom at all. I teach fully in and from the land. I also kind of decenter myself. I'm not the teacher anymore. I really feel as though, when I'm out on the land, the land is doing the teaching, and I'm facilitating this experience that is guided by curiosity and wonder. And I want to provide a voice for the land to be able to speak through. And I know so much of that, and so much of my journey has been not only inspired, but derived from indigenous pedagogy, Indigenous ways of knowing and indigenous knowledge, and including those perspectives in the same conversation as we include Western science, because it's a two ways of seeing something, and I want kids and people and everyone to acknowledge and understand that when we're Looking for reconciliation, we're actually looking at a completely different worldview and perspective that is not represented in the systems that we are currently operating within. So there is a lot of work to do inside your own house, as I was, you know, guided by an amazing speaker, Rebecca Sinclair. She's incredible. She said, to work inside your own house first, and to decolonize and to, you know, reconcile with what you need to unlearn, and then how you beautify your neighborhood starts to happen once you can kind of move out from that so preparing individuals relationship with the land in a way that they remember that they are connected to it, that they're connected to the stories that the land holds, and that those stories had been suppressed for such a long time, and just again, making sure that those stories are heard and that they're as loud as they absolutely should be.

Stuart Murray  26:55  
Partly, you know, you talk to a lot of students, so sort of give me a sense, are these students that come from a school program, or is this run independently? Like, do you work with school divisions to have the ability to have conversations with students? Or how do students get engaged with C pause,

Carly Gray  27:13  
yeah, so pretty much all levels. So I have superintendents that email me to coordinate outdoor learning days that I go to different schools. I have teachers that can book our schoolyard workshops and our field trip programs. Which field trips are, where the I feel the magic really happens when kids get out there engaging as a part of the ecosystem in the wild spaces. And also it kind of helps to say, Hey, this is why the space is protected, because it's so beautiful and it's so incredible. So it's, it's usually through teachers taking that action to say, hey, I want to have a speaker come in. Sometimes it is principals. I've worked with principals to facilitate outdoor learning days. One comes to mind, linen meadow school is incredible. The teachers there put on an amazing outdoor learning days all through May and June. And so it's it's a combination. It's an group effort to get me into the places that I tend to but honestly, sometimes I just feel like it's the land getting me where I need to go. And so you can send me an email or go onto our website for when we have program bookings, but in terms of, there's a lot of special events and community relationships that I've been so grateful to build just by people reaching out to me and saying, Hey, I have a tree that needs a tree Memorial. Can you come and do it? And you know, couple weeks later, I'm at a school facilitating a tree memorial for a beautiful being that was really impactful to the school community. So

Stuart Murray  28:41  
sounds amazing, Ron, one of the things that I'd just be sort of interested in finding some of these broader definitions. You know, when people sort of say, well, we need to protect the wilderness and that, you know, that's a term that's out there. Do you have somebody said to you? C pause, has a mandate to talk about parks, forest, wetlands, wildlife. Is there a definition in your mind of what the wilderness is?

Ron Thiessen  29:06  
Yeah, that's a great question, Stuart, and it's an interesting one in the sense that wilderness is in our in our name, Canadian parks and wilderness society, but we're actually trying to get away from the word wilderness as we move forward, because we have learned from some that they feel. You know, wilderness implies that this is where people don't go. There were some initial interpretations of the word the early days of colonialism, as the wilderness is where the savages are. So it's, you know, it's, it's got a little bit of a history that we certainly weren't aware of when we, you know, the organization began in the 1960s so we think about it perhaps as wild spaces, or, you know, protecting nature. And so essentially, I'll go back to the example of the seal River watershed, for example. That's, that's a perfect example of really protecting something that's whole and complete. The watershed is it's intact. So largely in. Pack. So what that means is it's operating according to all the principles and laws of Mother Nature. It hasn't been diverted or impacted by humans in any kind of significant way to change its operating systems. So that's an incredible thing to be able to do, is to protect large areas where the natural functions can continue as they are, and ends up supporting all the earth's life support systems for both people and for wildlife.

Stuart Murray  30:27  
And that's a great example. And I was going to just say again, from your website, I went on to, you know, learn about, sort of, the motion to make Assiniboine forest a national urban park. And so you've answered it very well, because I wondered, you know, when you talk about wilderness, you know, you try to sort of marry those two geographical areas, one that's super far up north, that is pristine. And, you know, I'd have to say cineboi Park, forest, I should say is also, in its own way, in my mind, you know, very pristine. What is the importance of making it into a national urban park. Why is that important?

Ron Thiessen  31:02  
Great question once again, I think I'll start off this by sharing that we are extremely fortunate in Winnipeg. We have one of the largest urban spaces of any city in all of North America. So this is something that I think it's really great for people to know and to appreciate. Our concern with Assiniboine forest is that, well, there's a couple of pieces, but right now it is not protected from developments. And you know, some people will say, Oh, it's, you know, people love it there. It's never going to get developed. But we might remember when Sam Cates was the mayor and he wanted to build condos in as Park, for example, that proposal was shut down, but that was the thing. We also look at Gatineau Park, just outside of Ottawa, which is their playground, essentially, and into Quebec. That area has been eaten up constantly by new developments, shopping malls, houses, that's and of course, we need those things, but it's in a park area. So technically speaking, the only thing that stands between opening Assiniboine forest for developments is a two thirds vote in city council in Winnipeg. So although that may not happen anytime in the near future, we don't know what future governments are going to think. Or do we know that cities are always looking to expand their tax base, and you know that area could be quite lucrative for real estate in the future, so we want to ensure that it stays the way it is, for the health and well being of Winnipeg ers and Manitobans and for tourists who like to visit as well. That that was the idea behind it becoming a national urban park, because that would protect it. Another piece that a national urban park would do, we would see an annual federal funding arrangement to make sure that the park is properly managed. One of the issues that we're finding in the cinnamon forest right now is there's a lot of invasive species that are wreaking a little bit of havoc with the ecosystem. So being able to have a budget and resources to be able to stay on top of that, because right now, the city doesn't actually have a budget for us in a boy and forest, it's actually a number of different branches that kind of chip in and work on the park, but there's no real strategy or dedicated budget. That's certainly an issue. We want to keep it healthy and well for our future generations.

Stuart Murray  33:08  
And so Ron to that, you know, the two thirds of City Hall back it up for a second. So what's involved, or who has to sort of put the big stamp on it to say that this is a national urban park. What is the process to get to that so that it makes sure that it's that way forever?

Ron Thiessen  33:25  
That's an interesting question, in the sense that no two urban parks are going to look the same in terms of the process involved. And I'd love to give you a simple answer to this, but unfortunately, there isn't one. But I guess high level points would be that it's going to require municipal governments in this case, so city, the province, the federal government, and also working with indigenous nations. So treaty one primarily to come to agreement on what a national urban park could look like there, what the roles and responsibilities would be, who would be in charge of direction and management. So it'd be a bit of a process, obviously, to figure all of that out, but certainly a journey that we're excited about exploring.

Stuart Murray  34:01  
So Ron, is it fair to say, if anybody's listening to this, they might sort of have a takeaway saying that it's definitely part of the plan of C pause and others to make it into a national urban park. But if somebody sort of said, you know, is there any way I could get involved or help out? Is there a way that a listener might get involved in that or is it not at that stage yet? Or just where might people find themselves involved in this

Ron Thiessen  34:25  
process? Certainly, it's ways for people to get involved. Certainly by going to our website, C paws, mb.org, there is a link. If you tap on the the link that says incentive wind for us, it'll take you to an opportunity, to a convenient Avenue, rather to let the political leaders of the day, let them know that you're interested in them supporting and moving forward on the initiative to establish one for us as a national urban park.

Matt Cundill  34:51  
You know, I remember my

Stuart Murray  34:52  
wife and I had a wonderful chance to travel, and we were in Machu Picchu, and I think they were trying to establish that as one of the wonders of the world. And so. You know, they had like information as soon as you arrived there, and they were trying to get people to sort of get engaged. I mean, that's an international process. But is there something like that available on site that you might be aware of at cinnamoy Park now, where people could do something, or is it really, as you say, going to the website to be a little bit more engaged?

Ron Thiessen  35:18  
I'd say largely, to go to the website at C pause to get more engaged also. So even though some national urban parks processes are being advanced throughout the country, the federal government still hasn't completed its policy on national urban parks and hasn't created an overall funding structure for them. So certainly, if people want to get involved in that process and provide comments during comment periods, that would be very helpful.

Stuart Murray  35:41  
Yeah, I just, you know, one of those things that if it's too late, and people sort of said, Gee, I wish I'd known, you know, so hopefully, through this podcast, and through what the work that C paws is doing and so forth, that you know that that's not the case, that it moves forward to a final fruition and the right decision to make it a national urban park. Carly, you talked, obviously, about a lot of education, a lot of things you did. Again, I'm just simply lifting some information that I was fascinating from your website, and that is all about the litter challenge. It's incredible. You know, I remember watching a series of Mad Men, and, you know, they were out in the park and they were eating chips and drinks and stuff, and they had a blanket, and everything was like, all there on the on the blanket. And as the as the family was getting ready to go away, you know, they all got off the blanket, and they took the blanket and shook it, and just everything scattered onto the ground, because, heaven forbid it should go into the car, you know, then that would mess the car up, but it's okay to mess up the ground. And it was like, you know, eerily, I'm looking at that and go, I can't remember that. So, you know, now, when you're driving and you see somebody throw a cigarette pack or something out their car as you're driving, you want to, you know, with respect, you know, like, what are you doing? So talk a little bit about Carly. How do you how do you engage people and understand what litter is and how we can do a better job of not littering?

Carly Gray  37:01  
Yeah, absolutely. So we have a litter challenge every year that works to get kids outside cleaning up and beautifying their neighborhoods, in their schoolyards. It's pretty incredible, because you ask a kid 12 and under, and they are so excited to go clean up litter, but it is very challenging to get an adult to even bend down to grab a plastic bottle that's blowing by with the wind. And I think that comes to the education piece like we forget that every piece of plastic that's on this earth is just going to break down into a smaller and smaller piece until we can't see it anymore, but it's still going to be there. Things like diapers take over 250 years. I think it's actually 500 years that they take to decompose. So a lot of the ownership of consuming goods has been put on the consumer for how you dispose of it. And I think it's really important for people to feel the general responsibility to picking up that litter, because if you don't, ain't, nobody gonna so what I find is really helpful in doing that. I mean leading by example. Obviously, I get all of my friends every time anywhere I'm like, Hey, we have to pick that up. We have to pick that up. But the public education piece of telling people how long it really takes for things to decompose, actually, our mental health is impacted by litter and wild spaces. People enjoy spaces less when they are covered in litter. So imagine your parks and green spaces, the more litter they have, the less people are actually able to enjoy them. So the litter challenge does one thing, we try and promote education around decomposition. We promote education around consumption and ways that we can reduce, reuse and craft and do all of the other things before consuming and recycling, because that is our last option. But we also, again, yeah, try to encourage. Thank goodness. We have Take Pride Winnipeg, here in Manitoba, they provide so many materials and gloves and bags, and it's pretty incredible. I was out of school on Friday, and I went to drop off bags from Take Pride Winnipeg, and those kids wanted to do it right there. They were out. In five minutes. They were out of the classroom by their pond, collecting all the garbage and plastic that they found around this pond that as they've been studying, have just noticed how filled with garbage it is. So number one, stewardship for their environment, they are getting that hands on, I take care of the earth. They're getting that hands on experience. But then they also get to visit this place and realize how beautiful and good it feels once it's been cleaned up as well.

Stuart Murray  39:34  
Yeah, it's a great approach. And Cape Pride Winnipeg, you know, they, they do a wonderful job, and we're fortunate to have them, but you know, it's a work in progress, right? I mean, you know, it's still a continuation. So, so listen, Ron Thiessen, Carly Gray, thank you so much for this conversation, but before we kind of hit the off ramp, I'm going to ask Carly and ask you the same thing, Ron, but Carly to you, is there, is there anything I didn't ask you? That you wanted a chance to talk about during this podcast.

Carly Gray  40:04  
I actually just had a really kind of a thought, I guess, when you were talking about ways to save Assiniboine forest, and we often think, you know, who do I need to write to? What do I need to what politician do I need to call? And sometimes building our personal relationship with a place is a way that we can take an actionable step. So if you are someone who wants to save that forest, get to know that forest, go to that forest, learn the species that naturally belong there, learn the species that don't try and be a steward of your own environment. I think that's a really key piece of action, as we often think it's putting the hands in someone else to do something. I can write my letter so that a politician can do something. But there are ways that we can steward the land, that we're on, planting indigenous species in your garden, making sure that you serve the local pollinators and birds and bugs and all of that is an incredible way, and it's a beautiful way. My garden is filled with indigenous species. And it's amazing to see the prairie crocuses and the blue eyed grass popping up right now. So I think it's it's also looking at what we can control too. And that building that relationship, looking at everything, with curiosity, with wonder, with love and with relationship in the natural world is an incredible way that we really, that we can take that power into our hands too.

Stuart Murray  41:25  
You know, I can see why you have the role you have. Carly Gray, well done, well said. So Ron, to you, just, is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to have a chance to talk about on this podcast?

Ron Thiessen  41:36  
Yeah, I think one thing I'd like to highlight, Stuart, is that what's very exciting to me to see, because, you know, I've been in this, you know, working in conservation for many years, and what we're seeing more and more of is that indigenous or traditional knowledge, some people call it, is being more woven into the fold in terms of information that we use to make decisions on the land, which is very exciting. And I think that science and indigenous knowledge are two different knowledge based approaches. So by weaving them together, you get a stronger foundation in which to assess and to make decisions. And you know, I look at science, and it's amazing what we've discovered and learned through science, but often science is snapshots in time. You know, study here for three months, maybe you come back the following year and study at that same time, if you have a really good study, it's consistently done over the course of many years to really understand a place. But often science isn't done in a very consistent way, so that, in itself, can be a hindrance into understanding our knowledge. Whereas when you have regional knowledge or indigenous knowledge, people that live on the land, that are there every day, they live and they breed the landscape, and they observe things and they learn as they go. That's extremely relevant as well. It's really important, and to be able to combine those two knowledge bases to help protect nature and culture couldn't be more important going forward. Yeah. Thanks. A great

Stuart Murray  42:54  
way to close off. So, so once again, Carly Gray, the environmental education manager, Ron Thiessen, the Executive Director of cpaws, which of course, is the Canadian Parks and Wildlife Society Manitoba. Thank you for taking time to be with me on this humans on rights podcast.

Matt Cundill  43:11  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davie, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.