The Hardest Help: A Story of Alcoholism, Loss & Hope with Holly Thorton

Scottie Durrett  0:00  
Welcome to the momplex Podcast. I am your host. Scotty durett, my passion and purpose is to help other moms just like me rediscover their joy and step into their confidence as their kids grow up, join me as I share my own experiences, my own mistakes and aha moments as I navigate this incredible journey of motherhood while trying not to lose my identity, if you are a modern day mama who is ready to live for herself, not just for her kids, and knows that is the best possible gift you could give, then you are in the right place. This is momplex.

Scottie Durrett  0:37  
Today's episode is one of those conversations I really believe is going to stay with you. If you've ever just had to hold it together for yourself, for your kids, for your life, when you felt like everything was falling apart, then this episode is for you. My guest today, Holly Thornton. She's the author of the hardest help. She knows more than anybody what it feels like when you are having to hold everything together, when life is not going the way you expected, the way you wanted, and it just feels like the pressure is coming from all angles. She's going to really open up in 2017 Holly lost her husband Steve to alcoholism at just 36 years old. But this isn't a story about just loss, it's also about love and resilience and the incredible strength it takes to keep showing up for yourself and your kids. Holly, she's going to share this beautiful story about the tools she's found, and talk about how we can play an amazing role in our own lives, in the lives of the people that we love and that there's always hope and there's always support on the other side. So Holly, I'm so happy you're here. Please introduce yourself to everybody.

Holly Thornton  1:44  
Yeah, I'm Holly Thornton. I'm a mom, and now I guess I can add author to my title. Yes, you can. That's new. So I've been working on this for about a year, and I decided to share my story when my husband passed away, I realized, you know, I took some time to grieve and reflect on everything that had happened. And it just dawned on me. It just hit me that, you know, if I knew years ago when I you know, when I was in the midst of this chaos and these struggles, if I knew than what I know now, I think we would have had a different outcome. I I truly believe that we would have and so I couldn't just sit on that information and also just to be there as a support for so many that are going through this right now, whether it's the alcoholism or you have a loved one that struggles with drug abuse or another form of addiction, or you just have a hard time setting boundaries, and you have issues in your marriage or other relationships, because who doesn't this really applies. And so I just wanted to share that information, because I think it's so important, and people feel isolated. They do.

Scottie Durrett  2:59  
Yeah, yeah, of course. And I'm so glad it's really brave and bold that you are talking about these things, because these are the things that might be happening in so many different homes, but that people are afraid to admit, I think, admit to themselves, admit to the people in their neighborhood. They don't want to be that mom in the carpool line. That is the one that you know, we don't we want to belong. We want to, you know, feel like everything is, quote, normal. So that perception, it can feel very threatening. So if you can take us back to those early days with your husband, right when, when did you first have a sense that his drinking was more than just kind of normal social drinking, and how did you start to, like, navigate that realization as a mom and a wife with all the life that was still going on? Yeah?

Holly Thornton  3:53  
Well, for me, it was difficult, because I grew up in a house with no alcohol. My family members didn't drink. Okay? I grew up in, I guess, a bubble thinking, but, you know, so, so the problem was I didn't know what was normal. It was never a conversation. It wasn't a conversation in my family, and it wasn't a conversation with friends, yeah, so I was naive, so that was part of the issue. But I think on the other side, it can also be difficult to figure out if this is a problem, if you did grow up around alcohol, true, right? True. If alcohol is if that's just part of the culture, it can also be difficult to figure out what's normal. So I feel like either way, it's not easy. And also, when you have a relationship with someone, whether that's a family member, a close friend, your spouse, you want to see the best in that person. You're not looking for flaws. And so if you are in a marriage and it's going well, you really you don't want to rock the boat, you don't want to see those red flags. You. So in the beginning, I did know that he drank. You know, my the first time I found out that he was a vodka drinker was because we were seriously dating, and I went to go grab a glass that I thought was water, and it was vodka. So I had like, nasty surprise, and he explained to me that when he comes home from work, that just calms his nerves, which is very common, right? That's something that a lot of people say, you know, oh, this relaxes me. Don't stress about it. I'm the same guy. You knew before you, before you knew about this. I'm the same guy. And so I let it go. Fast forward a few years. We're, you know, we're married, we have kids, and he's just a great dad, very hands on. He comes home from work, he cooks, he takes care of the kids. And I did start to see empty vodka bottles, and I did take note of it like, Oh, okay. It seems like he's drinking a lot, but he's still doing a B, C, D, he's still picking up the kids. He's still doing all of the things that I expect of him. He goes to work, he provides financially, he's nice to me. We have a good relationship, so I'm not going to say anything so I never expressed concern. Yeah, and it really wasn't until later on in our marriage, I would say about a year prior to a major health crisis, which I'll tell you about, that I started noticing bigger, broad, I would say, brighter, red flags that were more difficult to ignore. So change in behavior, irritability that seemed to come out of nowhere, like he was testy and he was irritable, and things that didn't bother him before, because he was a very easy going guy, seemed to bother him. It felt like he was nitpicking at me, okay? And I looked to myself, I thought, Oh, what am I doing wrong? There must be something that I'm doing wrong. Like, am I not as attractive? Do I need to lose weight? Am I not pulling my weight in the house? Like, what am I doing? I never once thought, oh, it's him, yeah, and it's the alcohol. I just didn't connect the dots until, really, until he had health issues, so he was hospitalized with acute kidney failure, and that was the first time it was presented to me as a problem,

Speaker 1  7:40  
okay? But when you are

Holly Thornton  7:44  
rushed to the emergency room and put in a hospital bed, the hospital is really just treating the acute issue. So it was mentioned that this is a problem. Hey, you know, maybe you should look at the drinking because that's what caused this, that I had just had a baby, I, you know, I had a lot going on, and I trusted this person, and he said to me, I've got it under control, okay, I realize it's an issue. I've got it under control. I'll take care of it. At which point he did go to detox, okay, went to alcohol detox, okay, okay, me being naive and not knowing that he really needs to go to a long term rehab facility. I said, Oh, okay, it sounds like you have it taken care of. So he went to detox. He came home a few days later that night, he had a beer, and then I thought, oh, okay, don't think that that's normal. I thought that this was taken care of. And from there, the fights started happening because I was then trying to step in and control the situation, yeah. And that's really when things spiraled out of control, because we were battling, and so we were just kind of in survival mode for a while, and, and, you know, and bickering, and, and I was trying to get a hold of this, which I still didn't quite grasp the severity, sure, I just thought, Okay, we have an issue, and I'm going to battle you a little bit on this Sure. Then came out of nowhere, what I thought was the flu, and turned out to not be the flu. He was in acute liver failure, wow. He was sick at home for at least 10 days. He was in bed, sleeping for 16 hours a day, wow. And he stopped eating, and I noticed he was jaundice, and he then agreed to go to the hospital, and things really took a scary turn from there, they put him into an induced coma. They said he probably won't survive this. And I'm like, survive what? I guess? Oh. What I still really didn't have a clue. I didn't put two and two together, even then doctor then came to me, and she said, You need to pull your head out of the sand, and you have to stop being this 1950s housewife. Your husband is a severe alcoholic. He probably has cirrhosis. He brought you know, I think I can pull him out of this. We'll see. Remains to be seen, but prepare for him to pass away in the in this hospital bed. And so he was in the hospital for three months. Wow, yeah, in an induced coma. I had the kids at home. I had a job, so I'm trying to, I've tried to hold it all together, you know, thinking that I'm going to be a widow. My kids are in sports and in school, and I have a little one. It was, it was very chaotic and stressful and a very dark place. I thought, like, this, is it? She really this, this doctor. She really took me aside and opened my eyes, and she said, when he comes out of this, you're going to have to get him into Betty Ford. She recommended Betty Ford treatment facility, which is a good long term treatment facility. Yeah, and I thought for sure, when he comes home, he is going to be so grateful that he survived, you know, if he survives this, he's going to be so grateful for the medical team, and, you know, for for me, for acting so quickly and getting him to the hospital. And he is going to this is going to be an aha moment, and he is going to want help. That's what I thought. Of course, Rob, he basically took a three month nap, right? Like he had no memory of sleeping for 10 days. He had no memory of that, and he has no memory of being in a coma. And so that means nothing to him.

Scottie Durrett  12:11  
You were the one suffering through this. Suffered.

Holly Thornton  12:15  
I'm the one that learned the lesson, and he did not, and he wanted to go right back to drinking. Yeah, I

Scottie Durrett  12:23  
want to keep talking about this, you know, but something I really want to touch on, if you know, there's that mom listening right now, I think what you said was so profound. You trust this person implicitly, right? You know, you stood up there and you chose this person, and there's this interesting place in our brain where we have to admit the hard stuff. Did I not choose the right person? What am? What you know, where have I fallen apart? What you know, those questions that are going through your head, there's sometimes too hard to even process right, especially if you don't have the experience. And so I do understand, you know, when those red flags started happening, how you naturally turned to yourself and thought, What am I doing wrong? You know, what? You know, how could I be different? Can you talk a little bit about that now, in hindsight, right now that you're able to kind of look back and connect the dots? You know, if there's that mom listening right now, who is not loving the way some things are going in her marriage or her life, and she's thinking, it's all on me, it's all on me. What is some advice or guidance you could give her, because she might be in the moment right now, you know that you could help her, or what you wish you could almost go back and say to Holly, you know, in 2015 right? And just to be able to speak to her, what would you say

Holly Thornton  13:43  
about the red flags? I do want to say that another reason that they're so difficult to spot is because this is a progressive disease, and red flags in any situation, whether it's red flags from alcoholism or in that situation, or you think your husband is cheating, and there are red flags. They never, almost never, start out big and bright, and there's almost this kind of grooming process that happens, and probably not intentional, but they start out small, and you bring it up and they dismiss it, or they have an excuse, okay? And then you rationalize. And then here comes the next one, and the same thing happens. And what can happen over time is that you no longer trust yourself and your instincts. And so to someone listening, saying, Come on, how did you not see you know that this was and that was happening, it's because of the years and the months, many months of the grooming and the minimizing that happens that you start not trusting your instincts and you actually question your own sanity. Am I the problem? Wait, no one else sees this, so it must just be. Me, I am the one that's not saying here. So that actually happens. That happened to me. I'm an intelligent person, and it happened to me. It can, it can so easily happen in any situation where you see red flags in any relationship. I just think that that is common. So I would say to myself, trust your gut instinct. Trust your gut journal what you're seeing. It's a great idea. Journal what you're seeing. Go back and review that, okay, and you know, take some notes on what you're seeing, and take some time to really evaluate things if you're feeling that there's a problem, then there's a problem. So I think the other thing I would say is Stop waiting for that person to validate your feelings, because they're not going to Okay. Whether we're talking about alcoholism or another addiction, or really just a simple issue in your marriage or relationship, it matters if it's affecting you. You know, with me, what I would have told myself is he's saying it's not that big of a deal, or it's not as big of an issue as I'm making it out to be. So it must not be. That's not true. It's affecting my life and the kids, and this is having a profound effect, and I am not okay, and so therefore this is an issue and things must change.

Scottie Durrett  16:29  
I love that. Thank you for saying that. You know specifically answering the question, Why are red flags so hard to spot? And I really like how you are explaining them as there, it's a soft red, maybe it's even a pink, right? It's just a little bit. And then it, over time, it starts to get more severe. And I think that can be applicable to our own red flags coming from our own body, right? It's easy, you know, for somebody that gets to the point like, how did you not notice the neck pain, or the, you know, the toothache, or, you know, well, I just it didn't seem like that big of a deal. Some days it was a big deal. Some days it wasn't right, it went away. And so I really appreciate you explaining that, because I know that it's yes, hindsight is beautiful. Of course, we can look back and say, Wow, I wish I had done this and this and this. This is, this is the beauty of life, right? The only way that we go through things and experience things is when we go through things. But you know that? And just to kind of understand that it doesn't really matter if somebody else doesn't think it's very severe, it matters how you feel, what impact it's having on you. And I think that's a beautiful message, yeah, trusting your gut and so, you know, he he comes home. I you know, when we don't have to, you're incredible for being so open. But I think it's really when you have this belief that he's going to come home and he's going to look at it the same way you would, right? I think that's a really important thing, especially in a relationship, right? I believe that you're going to look at life and handle it the way that I would. And He came home and he didn't so talk to us about that realization and how that shifted you, and what you were having to then do for yourself and your kids at that time,

Holly Thornton  18:16  
I was just in panic mode. We have to fix this, and there's not a lot of time to quickly educate yourself, so you're just scrambling. That's how I felt. I'm just scrambling. I'm just trying to do something. And this physician said, get him to Betty forward. So Compeller, high water. That's what we're going to do. I brought in his dad, who is also, I would say, a high functioning alcoholic, and his brother that is an addict, but he does care a lot about what they think. So if they say you're going, you're going. So I brought them in, and they basically bullied him into checking himself into Betty Ford, okay, so he stays for a few weeks, and he's feeling great, and things are going pretty well. They recommended six months. That's what the recommendation was, six months to rewire the brain, to gain these skills and to be able to function in society and have the best chance of not relapsing. So he stays a few weeks, and he calls me and he says, I'm ready to come home, and if you don't come get me, I'm going to walk home. And so of course, I was just filled with fear, and I said, Okay, I'll be there in 20 minutes. So I did. I went to go get him, and he came home, and I think he lasted a day or two, and he went right back to drinking and heavy drinking. I'm talking about finishing a half gallon in 48 hours of vodka. Wow. So it was very. Very and then from there, we because his liver, I didn't mention that he was diagnosed with cirrhosis, but he was diagnosed with cirrhosis, and at this point, it's 34 when you have cirrhosis, you're at high risk for getting infections, life threatening infections. You're at risk for the liver acutely failing again, and so now we're in this revolving door cycle where he's in the hospital and or going back to treatment every six weeks. The longest he stayed home was two months. Yeah, what's your heart He's making trips back to the hospital, sometimes for a week, sometimes for two weeks. We had another month stint, and every time I'm on the emotional roller coaster thinking, this is it again, this is it again, you know? And so that was very scary and stressful, and we lived like that for a couple of years, until he passed away. Now, several months prior to his death, I am doing some digging, and I'm looking online and I'm trying to find resources, because what no one did for me was take me aside and say, now we need to stop this revolving door cycle. Here's what you can do as the wife at home to help keep him sober, and when he calls you from rehab and he says he wants to go home, here's what you should say, here's here's your exit plan and here's your roadmap. No one did that for me. I went to Al Anon, but I felt like when I went to Al Anon, I felt like the message was, here's how you can go on with your life. Here's how you can set boundaries. Which boundaries are important? They're important for the both of you. But what they didn't say was, I never got that when you go home, here's what you're going to do, here's your game plan, here's how you're going to help steer him toward recovery that didn't happen, and so that's what I knew was missing and I needed. So I did come across the craft, method, community reinforcement and family training, which does provide the tools for yourself and for you and your and your loved one that's struggling with addiction, and I started using their method. And along with some other I did some other research and found some other tools that I found to be very effective, and some other methods, and I just started applying them to our life. And it's it's about communicating in a way that is going to be effective, right? Stopping this, stopping the cycle of the Nag cycle, the Nag and argument cycle, which then leads them to drink again. So we're stopping that. We're stopping pointing the finger and saying, who's to blame, you know, reducing the tension in the relationship so that the person that's struggling can actually hear you and receive and see that they that they do need the help and the support. And so I started applying this to our life, and I and I did see progress, okay, but it came too late. He unexpectedly. He unexpectedly had liver issues again, wound up in the hospital, and he just didn't survive that fast.

Scottie Durrett  23:26  
That you know that? Yes, I mean, it's the finding the tools. And I love how you were explaining it just gives you some tools. So it kind of takes the blame off of it, the pointing the fingers. Did you feel like those tools allowed you to not point the finger at yourself either.

Holly Thornton  23:43  
Yes, yes. Because another thing that just didn't sit right with me was in a lot of the group meetings you'll talk about enabling, yeah, and I like to call it unintentional support,

Scottie Durrett  23:58  
because yes, that's what

Holly Thornton  23:59  
it is, that's what it is, right? It was never a malicious decision, intent, you know, for me to help him drink so that he could pass away. My God, you know, I don't, I don't want that. I didn't know how to set the boundaries, yeah, and we were just in that cycle, and it was just this unspoken understanding that I was going to go to the liquor store for him, or that I was going to cover in life for him. It just happens. And if you don't know how to get out of it, it will continue.

Scottie Durrett  24:31  
This can happen even in the smaller moments, and you don't realize that there's this routine that's happening where it's an intersection between belief and reality, and you know, expectations and reality, right? And your mind, there's this vision of life, you know, that y'all both agreed on, and this is how we're going to go through life. And I do think how we're raised in our programming, our individual essence, is involved in that, too. And here you are. You are. You were the ray of sunshine, this hope, this life, that like we're going to keep fighting, we're going to keep doing it. You're also trying to hold down a job, raise kids, and you're living in fight or flight. 24/7, you know, you kept using the word fear. And when we're when we're going through our life from that fear base, it does impact the choices that we're making, and it is hard to catch your breath, and I just want it for any mom that's listening, I just want her to know that that's okay, you know, it's it's a normal human reaction, but that there are tools out there so that you don't have to stay in that fear. I think that fear is it feels like you have something pinching your heart and your lungs and your your stomach all day long. So these tools, you know, I know you, you talk about craft and that there really weren't any. There really weren't people there, except for that one doctor who was like, Get your head out of the sand, right, right? But there were not people who were offering this education. And so if there, it is so hard to muster up the energy to educate yourself, yeah, to learn all this, especially when you feel like your partner is not meeting you there. How, how did you find the energy to keep going when you felt like you were holding the family and your job together, and you felt like you were having to try and save his life. I mean, that is so much pressure. How were you able to keep that energy going every single day?

Holly Thornton  26:31  
That was not easy. Yeah, I just, you know, I didn't have a choice. I woke up to the kids, yeah, they had to get ready for school, and they were looking at me to to make everything okay. So you're just when you're in survival mode, you can do some great things. Later, you're going to say, I don't know how I did that. I don't have any words of wisdom as to how, how I didn't end up in the loony bin myself, I don't know, but at the time, you just muster. You just do. You're you go into survival mode and you just do. You just muster up the strength, and you're able to do incredible things.

Scottie Durrett  27:16  
You know, not everything can be solved in this moment right now, just learning how to co regulate what we're like, looking back on this now, like, what are some things that, if a mom is going through that when she's like, just pushing herself to the brink every single day trying to control, even if it's not about alcoholism, it could be about something else, right? It could be money issues, how somebody's managing their money, how somebody's managing their their relationships, how maybe, how somebody you talked about Steve being such a good dad, right? What if there's somebody you've married and then you realize, Wait, they're not who I thought they were. What is some guidance and support that you could offer to that mom who feels like she has to control everything and feels like she's holding on to the steering wheel so tight, I feel

Holly Thornton  28:04  
like that's a natural response, and I was guilty of it, right? I had to learn that, okay, this isn't working, so we are going to just trust the process in this approach that feels foreign to us and uncomfortable. But we have to, because we know that this isn't working. It's never going to work, the yelling, the screaming, the saying, you're driving us into bankruptcy, you're ruining our marriage, all of those negative things. It hasn't worked so far, right? And it's not going to tomorrow and it's not going to next year. So we have to do something different, we have to rewire our brain and retrain our brain so that we can get out of that cycle. And so for me, I would literally, and I recommend this to anyone, and it doesn't matter what the issue is, I would do a couple of things. One I would I would journal. I would journal, you know, I would write down what is the issue, what's the outcome that I want to have, what are some common arguments that we have, and how can I respond differently? So, for example, it I think it's just about planting the seeds. And this really worked for me, planting the seeds and getting him to see that what he wants and what he's doing, those two things don't align, and that applies to anything. So for him, instead of addressing the elephant in the room and saying, You blow all our money gambling Right? Like, what are some goals that you have, and how does that align? And I think just getting curious and asking questions. And they're leading questions. You know, asking someone how they feel, what are your goals? Just talking with that person eventually. You know, they may be guarded at first, because they're waiting for you to nag or drop the drop the bombshell and bring up the elephant in the room again, but just asking those curious questions. So if it's alcohol that we're talking about, then often times, and I think this is true with a lot of addictions, depression occurs, right? The person's probably depressed. They're dealing with anxiety, they have a lot of other pressures that are happening. Or maybe they lost their job, or they're they're looking for a better job, and they can just never land the interview. Or they go to the interview and it just never lands well, because clearly everyone else can see that there's a problem. And so talking with that person and using that as a window of opportunity to do a couple of things. One again, like I said, pointing out to where what they're doing and what they want, how those two things don't align, like getting them to open up, and if they say, I just I'm not happy in my job, and I want a better job. And every time I go to these interviews, they just don't go well, I just, I don't land job, asking them, well, why do you think that is? And digging deeper and asking those open ended questions, and it will lead back to the problem, right? Let, let them say it and let them make that connection, because eventually, and it may take multiple conversations, they will, and I don't think it's just my personal opinion. Again, whether we're talking about an addiction or another major problem in marriage, it's not always going to be solved at home. Between the two of you, it's not always your job to fix the problem at home, sometimes it's bigger than the two of you, and you need an outside person. But what you can do, and again, in the case with alcoholism, what you could do is, once you get them to identify that, then the window of opportunity. Method is, you know when I was struggling, or when my friend Susie was struggling, she went to see this career coach. And you know, or this, you could say, this life coach. And you know, they did a, b, c, d for her, and this was the outcome. And look at Susie now, right? And so again, it may take several attempts to get them to go talk to this person to agree, and once they do, you've already prepped them behind the scenes. Hey, this is what's going on. This is the issue. And if it's an addiction, then behind the scenes, you've already talked to the insurance, you know, who has a bed open? Yeah, you know, yeah. Everything's already in line, yeah, so that this person can gain their trust and get them to that intake appointment and get them checked in.

Scottie Durrett  33:09  
I love it. It's, I really, really appreciate your suggestion to journal, because it's something that she could start today. And there's journaling. It's really tapping into your unconscious mind, right? You're really in a safe space to open up and say how you're really feeling. And it's a nice support. So when you do have that very uncomfortable, scary conversation, right, even with the person you love in the world, most in the world, you can have it almost as a support to remember, wait. This is why I felt this way. This is what's important to me. So you don't feel so alone. I just, I like the idea of journaling, because it feels just even 1% different than what was happening yesterday. And you talked about that like, this isn't if this isn't working, what is one small shift, and that doesn't feel so overwhelmingly exhausting, and it's something that she could do today. It's free. I do want to touch on you really talk about debunking this rock bottom myth, you know? And can you talk a little bit about that, like, how waiting for someone to get to rock bottom, and, you know, how it doesn't necessarily help, and what could someone do instead?

Holly Thornton  34:22  
Sure, so rock bottom is a myth, because rock bottom is never a loss of a job. Like, that's not rock bottom. You might view that as rock bottom, but they don't Okay, and my husband didn't view being in the hospital for three months with liver failure as rock bottom, either, like, as insane as that sounds, that was not rock bottom for him. So rock bottom, unfortunately, is something disastrous that usually they can't come back from, okay, or that's, you know, career ending. And, you know, leaving that's not rock bottom because it's going to be your. Fault. So they just don't connect the two that frontal lobe, that part of the brain that's responsible for impulse decision making, self awareness, that's diminished, that's damaged, yeah, and so they're not going to make that connection. It's that time away from the substance where the brain can start to repair, that they can then make those connections. Okay? So it's really not until you have them in therapy, and they've had some time away from that substance that they can actually then see it, got it, got it. So the idea of the window of opportunity, like I like I spoke about, the point of that is to get them to receive the help, because that's an uphill battle, definitely an uphill battle. And that's why the fights happen, and that's why, you know, the pointing the finger doesn't work, because it just puts the person on the defense. And so as much as they need help, you know, so do you in learning effective ways of communicating? So instead of saying, you know you're ruining everything, you know, you can definitely use I statements, and you can say things like put a positive spin on things and say, like, I really wait for, wait for a moment. One when they're sober, you can never have a conversation when someone is not sober. And that's that's part of that setting boundaries, but also just saying how you feel, so that you're not pointing the finger, would be a good example. Like, I really love when you're present, and we're just, let's say you're watching the move together. I really love when you're present and you know you're not drinking, and we're just enjoying each other. I just, I love your I love your company, yeah? Or, you know, they come, they make a choice, like they come home for dinner instead of going to the bar with their buddies. Yeah? You know, the kids and I are so glad that you're here and just putting a positive spin on things, because while nagging doesn't work, one thing that will happen over time when the rewards from your positive reinforcement are greater than the drinking that's when that will help make that connection. Got it, and that happens over time. So I think people get frustrated. And again, this can apply to anything, yeah, this can apply to he's spending too much money, he's he's gambling, he's whatever the whatever the negative behavior is. This applies, and it's, this is research base, yeah. So this, this this works, really, in any situation, showing showing that positive reinforcement and giving that to them and hold it being that mirror to show them the positive side. Eventually that will become greater than the drinking, then the gambling, then whatever the negative behavior is that will outweigh in their brain, so their brain will begin to rewire and to replace that reward. Because right now, the reward is drinking, yeah. And so eventually it will be, oh, well, when I do this, I receive this, yeah, and so just recognizing any, any positive step forward. So I think also people get stuck in, well, I asked him to quit, and he hasn't quit, therefore I'm not going to recognize any positive steps. And you have to what, even if it's the tiniest little, little thing, yeah, you do. You need to acknowledge it and make it known how much you appreciate it, because that is helping to rewire the brain. Yeah?

Scottie Durrett  38:52  
And that positive i statement really takes you, and you talk about this, that from that powerless, that feeling of just hopelessness, to more empowered, right, like, where you were actually contributing in a way that feels manageable and feels possible. And I think that's a really big shift, because this conversation could be applicable to a mom who's struggling with something their teen is going to, you know, it's, it's that same thing, what we, you know, and you were in this energy of enabling, because you really, how could you know, you know you're leading from a place of love, right? So much of what we do every single day is coming from this place of, how can I love them in the the way I know how to the best? And a lot of times it is this situation where you don't have the you don't even have the language. My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD and anxiety in first grade, and I literally took her to the doctor out of desperation because she was having uncontrollable meltdowns and everything I said either made her run away from me or made the meltdowns even worse. And I finally just realized I. Don't know how to do this, but I know we can't keep going in this direction. So I did have to go get help, and I needed I have a different language now. I have different information and different words in my head, but I didn't know how to do that till I felt to where I really had to trust my gut, like you had mentioned before, and realize this isn't working. And I think that beautiful moment to admit that something isn't working doesn't mean that y'all have failed, and it doesn't mean that another possibility isn't available to you. But really having that awareness that this isn't working, I think, is really powerful, and knowing that there are people out there who can help like you. You learned the craft method, you learned the stop method, and now you yourself have gone out and written that path, that blueprint, that you can share with other moms. Talk about, let's talk about your book, because when you and I talked, we met before we recorded this podcast, and you were like mind blown that the way you were authoring this book, the way you were telling the story had never been told before. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Holly Thornton  41:12  
Yes, I was, you know, I, I was doing some research before putting this book out. I just wanted to see what's out there. Yeah, right, because I'm coming from a different angle. But when you write a book, it's common, it's normal, you'll see, okay, well, what else is out there? What are other people saying? And so I couldn't find it, you know, I found memoir. Okay? Multiple memoirs from recovered addicts and from wives. And I found a woman, her husband passed away, and she wrote a book, but she was really talking about, you know, how to protect the kids. And she had a completely different story and message. Okay, hers was more about which is important. You You do need to protect your kids. There's a way to go about that. But I think, you know, in certain situations, you can keep the family together. I wanted to show that there's a way to keep the family together, that if you don't want to leave. You don't have to leave. You can actually work on this at home. And you can actually get to the other side of this, yeah, and this is how you can do it. Because there wasn't that book out there. I was shocked that it didn't exist. Like we talked about the addict, and we talked about how to leave the addict, and we talked about how to you know how to from from an addict's point of view, how to recover. But what about at home? How do you steer that person toward recovery? What about when you're met with resistance? Yeah, and they won't even have the conversation. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do? How do you even get them to acknowledge they have a problem, and when you notice red flags, how do you respond? What do you do with those? How do you set boundaries? Why should you set boundaries? Who are they important for? What? What do boundaries actually look like? Because I think a lot of people think boundaries look like I'm leaving the house. I'm not going to speak to you for a week because I found another model, and that's not what they're about.

Scottie Durrett  43:21  
What are they about? Tell us about, what are, what are the boundaries about? If they're not that, I guess black and white.

Holly Thornton  43:27  
I think it's important to you know, for your own for your own sanity and your own mental health, to say, this is what I'm comfortable with, this is what I'm not comfortable with, and this is where I stand. And so I think it helps with the communication to say I'm not comfortable going to the liquor store for you anymore. It makes me feel like I'm harming you, and that makes me sad and uncomfortable, and I don't want to do that anymore, yeah, or I'm not going to pick up after you. I'm finding beer cans, and I'm just I'm not going to do it. And the reason is, is because they can't see the consequences. If you're constantly picking up after them, they're not going to ever see the consequences of their actions if, if you don't have boundaries. So they're very important.

Scottie Durrett  44:24  
I'm writing that down. I love that you can't see the consequences. Is if you are constantly picking up after them. I think that's really important, you know, for that mom listening in the even the smaller moments, right? You know, how many times have we raced to try and get the kids out of the, you know, the house in order to make sure they weren't late. We're packing their lunches. We're making their beds. Mom, I forgot my laptop. Mom, I forgot my such and such, and what are we doing? Oh my gosh, I gotta, it's that. I gotta go do this for you. And it's, I always tell my kids, I say you get one, one a year, right? Because I get it. It's the new routine. But at some point. I i You need them to go through that day without their laptop, without their clothes being picked up off the floor to understand how does that impact me? How do I feel about this? How do I recover from that? And there's that beautiful subconscious message that says, I believe you can handle it. I know that you can get yourself through this, but it's really hard, right? Especially, I think as moms and women, because in our minds, we're thinking, if I do, if I pick up, if I give, if I love, then I am loving them in the best way possible, right? But I love the

Holly Thornton  45:36  
unintentional support, the enabling, the unintentional support, it comes from a place of love. But it is harming them and you because you feel guilt and and and stressed, because they're not getting any better, they're not learning from this, and it's just that cycle that you have to get out of. And I did a silly thing. I would literally practice the conversations in my mind and out loud like, Okay, this is this is what I want to say, and this is how I think they're going to respond. And I wanted to also, like, I said, get out of the argument cycle. So my boundary is, if you name call me, I'm going to say, Okay, we're going to de escalate this. I'm going to walk away. Okay, and let's try again in an hour. Okay, right? So have those boundaries also, but whether it's your kids or your spouse, you probably know how they're going to react, and you have that anxiety, and so be prepared. And if you know how they're going to respond, and you know it's going to be negative, and you've really thought about this, then you're probably not going to have the argument, because when they respond and they expect you to bark back and you don't, you're training them also as to how to respond and how to treat you. So I think that's really important. And then back to the journaling. Another reason that I think journaling is so important is because over time, as you get better at this, you can then look how far you've come. Because I think when you're going through something that's tough, regardless of what it is, you just don't see progress. You're like, but we still have the problem. But then you can go back and you can see, oh, well, we actually did make these steps forward. And you just as you're going through it, you're just like, you've tunnel vision, and you just want to see the end, and you don't see the progress along the way. But it's, it's really important to recognize the progress for your own sanity, because if you feel like this is all for nothing, then it's really easy to revert back to the yelling and the screaming and the pointing fingers and to just throw the tools aside and be like, This isn't working. Yeah, I love that so much your old method was not working. So you just have to trust the process. Like, just give it, say, Okay, I'm going to give it, you know, three months, and then I'll re evaluate. But you know, you can't just, I think you can't just blindly go into anything like when you when you said you dealt with this issue with your daughter, and you had to relearn how to communicate with your daughter, because what you were doing wasn't working either. The both of you had things that you had to work on, and so you couldn't just go into that blindly. You have to have a plan, a plan of Okay, so when she has these meltdowns, this is how I'm going to respond. Yeah, right, yeah. A plan of attack.

Scottie Durrett  48:35  
The journaling. What a beautiful reminder. Because when you're living in fight or flight, when you're living in fear and confusion and you feel anxious, you know just you're worrying constantly about things you can't control, it's exhausting, and there are going to be days where that inner pep talk just isn't it's just not cutting it right. And I love that reminder that when you feel like it's not working. And what am I doing all this for to go back and read your own words to yourself, because it does, it can help you find that little bit of gratitude, right? And we can't be anxious and grateful at the same time just to give your nervous system a little bit of a break, you know, just even to read those words, I'll go back and I'm like, who wrote this was I, you know, I can't even believe it doesn't even sound like me. So those are those that we wake up sometimes, on those days and you, you know, you put your hands on the kitchen island. You think, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can do it. Why is it so hard? Why isn't it working? I'm working. I'm doing all the quote right things. And yet, still, I'm not seeing the relief. I'm not seeing the change I'm not seeing my effort pay me back. And you can take these kind of existential questions like, Why does the universe hate me so much? Why are things so hard for me? Why? How come that mom and that marriage gets to be easy and mine has to be so hard? And you can really lose your footing, right? Right? And here you are. You're running a job, you're keeping the house afloat, you're raising children, and you feel so alone in those moments, right? And so I love the journaling. Your own words could be some of your best reminders to keep going, which is it's people have talked about journaling forever. I've just picked it back up again, and it's very cathartic for me. It's one of the best ways for me to start the day, because I start the day in a non stressed state, right? I start the day on kind of my terms. And as a busy working mama, it's hard to feel that way sometimes. Yeah. So I love that so much.

Holly Thornton  50:40  
It also helps you process what's going on too. Because I feel like when you're going through something tough, you're processing nothing. Your brain is mush. It's it's hard to process what's happening. Yeah, that comes later, but reading it back, what you said that that helps, and also your partner, your friend that you have the issue with is not always the best sounding board, because one they're they're not going to validate your feelings, and going to a friend or family member that can be tough or embarrassing, sometimes, not everyone has that support. So Be your own support and do that

Scottie Durrett  51:18  
your book and how you are choosing to live your life every single day you are the physical representation of truly turning pain into purpose. Can you talk even more about your book and how that writing it has been a good healing journey for you, and how you're sharing it with other people, and tell the story about how that one nurse in the hospital told you what a difference your book is going to make in the world. Because that kind of truth, that kind of honesty, really isn't being put in the hands of the people that need it the most.

Holly Thornton  51:53  
I've had enough time away from this tragedy to be able to speak about it. Initially, when everything happened, he passed away. I had a hard time saying his name. I didn't want to talk about the situation. And I've, I've processed, and I can openly share everything, but it hasn't been so long, and I remember all the details, writing it, it just sort of flowed out of me. I felt like it just slowed. I thought initially like, this is gonna be difficult. Gosh, Do I really have that much to say? I had the, you know, the methods and the knowledge, but I felt like, Do I really have that much to say about my personal story? I think everyone kind of feels that way about themselves, like, Oh, my story's not that interesting. Or I don't have that much to share, but I had so much to share, I had to kind of pick and choose what I wanted to put in this book, which I didn't hold back at all. I mean, I did not sugar coat what happened. We went through, especially leading up several months prior to his death, when his organs were shutting down. Your body is not filtering those toxins. Your body is not filtering ammonia. Ammonia actually affects your brain function, and so hallucinations, change in behavior, violence, all of that happened. He was literally a completely different person, to the extent that several months prior to his passing, I had to get a restraining order, and my life was literally in danger. I had to recount all of that, but I wanted to, because I know that addiction is not pretty, and it does often come with abuse. And you know that abuse is not always physical. It could be, you know, minimizing an issue and telling you that, gaslighting you and telling you that you know this isn't an issue, or you're imagining it, that is a form of abuse. But I was talking about actual violence in the home that occurred, and so I detailed that, you know, things that my kids witnessed, but I thought it was so important for someone that's in the situation now that may be dealing with that, that it's not fair for me to hold back. I felt like I owe this to someone that's going through it right now to tell them the gory details of what happened in the house so that they can be seen. I thought that that was very important, but yeah, you mentioned the nurse. So when Steve was in the hospital, I found it really disturbing that a lot of the nurses are just really uneducated on the topic of addiction. They know what happens to you on a cellular level when you consume large amounts of alcohol. They know what happens to your liver, and they see the results of that in the hospital, but they don't truly understand the mind of an addict. And I found that, you know, some of them were compassionate. I'm not going to say that all of them were not, but some of them were not. And one of them made a comment that, if. He is just going to continue this cycle, if he's going to choose alcohol, then maybe he shouldn't come out of this. Maybe he would be better off passing away. And that was sad, that was hard to hear. That was that was disturbing. Yeah, you know that that's how you view your patients, and that, you know, she doesn't know the story, or, you know why he drinks, or why he's still stuck in this addiction, and so many others are. So that was hard to hear, but there's a nurse that follows me on social media, and he picked up my book, and he said it's changed the way that he's viewed the patients, and that he wants to share this with others, other nurses and hospital staff, and that, he said, I think every nursing student should read this book, or every healthcare worker should read this book. Even you know, the addiction counselors should read this book, because they do understand the mind of the of the person that has the addiction, but unless they've been through it themselves, what it really looks like at home, I don't think they have a good picture of that. And so if you're going to be guiding you know addicts and their family members, I think it's important.

Scottie Durrett  56:16  
It's a really beautiful reminder, too, that what you're going through, we're likely always going to find someone who doesn't fully understand and they're not fully privy to everything, and so they're going to have their own opinion, they're going to have their own assumption, they're going to bring their own personal agenda into it. And I think just remembering that that is going to happen, but it doesn't mean that how you feel about it is wrong. It goes back to your whole reminder about trusting your gut, right? Just really knowing that you know what's best for you and your family. Lean into that, even if it feels like you're alone for the minute. I think it's so important for us to remember what matters most to us, right? And just really fight for that, even if you feel not supported. And I say when you feel not supported, there is somebody out there who can support you, you know, there is somebody we there's always somebody else, even if it's your own words, right, that can help you feel like you're not alone. But I know, I don't know how you're going to do it. We got to get this book somehow included in NYU Medical School. Somehow we just, like, send them 800 copies and just say, include this into it, you know, because it's Yeah, your story. I talk about this a lot when I'm talking to new moms, and I say things like, look, I think baby books are great. Baby books are great, but take what resonates with you and leave the rest, because you have never been here before. Your child has never been here before. This story has never been told, but I love that now there's different perspectives. So if somebody is going through this specifically, and their family has family member has an addiction, oh my gosh, there's so many different resources that you can lean on your book specifically, which I think is incredible, because not everything is a one size fits all, and it can really, you talk about that right, where you literally say that there is a way for you to get support for you and your loved ones through these incredibly hard seasons, that you're not alone, that you're not powerless, right? That you have there is some light, and it's, it's hard. So for that mom, that mom listening today, and she's in this she's in up to her neck, in that fear, in that guilt, in that not knowing what to do. What would you want her to hear from you right now?

Holly Thornton  58:32  
I think I said it. I think the most important thing is your sanity is going to be put into question. You are going to be told over and over again, even by some medical professionals, because to the counselors, he's going to minimize whatever the issue is, and that you have to stand on your truth and really, like You said, lean into that gut instinct and stand firm on it. No, this is what's happening. Unfortunately, that's really common, not just, not just this spouse, to say, making a mountain out of molehill is nothing, man, yeah, or we're not going to talk about it, or, you know, just gaslighting and minimizing, but I think they've been convincing themselves for so long they can really easily convince others, even counselors, yeah, that it's not as big of an issue. And when someone else comes in and confirms that and and that did happen to me at a point, then it's really easy to just fold and say, Okay, I give up. Yeah, you have to do that. I think it's important to get support. I didn't think that it was the best fit for me, but I do still think that there's some value in Al Anon, yeah. So I think that that's. A good group. There are a lot of Facebook groups. You know, it just needs someone to talk to, because, again, sometimes it's really scary, not only because it's embarrassing or you want to keep up this facade, everything's okay. And this is which I did. I went to work with a smile on my face, and it looked professional and like I had it all together. And really it was just dying inside. But it was also scary, because I had a fear that if someone on the outside knows what's happening, my kids could be taken away, or there was going to be some, you know, disastrous consequence for the family. And so it's easy to stay silent, because you don't know what's going to happen if someone else from the outside steps in and you just want someone to talk to. So I think Facebook support groups are great, amazing, and it's at any time, right? It could be midnight and you're like, Yeah, you just need to say how I'm feeling right now, or I need to find someone that's going through this right now that I can talk to. And really, 24 hours a day, you could go into a support group and talk to someone. You can get your own counselor that fits your goals. You know, I think it's important to when you talk to someone that is a professional, to say, these are my goals, and to not let someone steer you into a direction that you're not comfortable with, because I've experienced that where I felt like her goal was to divide the family, because she maybe not intentionally, but she didn't have the answers. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't her specialty. She didn't have the answers. So I was left feeling like, Okay, I want to bring the family together, and I want to know how to support him so that we can end this issue. And I feel like that's not your goal. Yeah, that's important, not because you're being malicious and you want to tear the family up because you don't have the answers. Yeah. And so the message of, well, then just, you know, focus on your self care. When that's the message, then you know, it's, it leaves you confused, and it and it can leave you wanting to just give up on finding help altogether, because no one understands, right? So I think going in with an objective, which then also goes back to trusting your instincts. Yep, these are my instincts. This is what I want. Can you do this for me?

Scottie Durrett  1:02:16  
Like, and if you can't let me keep searching, right? I think that too, what you just like, it's I, you know, and I'll drop these resources in the show notes, but the different Facebook groups, the different trying, Al Anon trying this resource, reading into the craft method, figuring out if that's the right in grabbing your book. I think it's that just that constant, like, you know, if your kid came to you and they were sick, you would stop at nothing. Stop at nothing. We want to apply that same energy to ourselves, right, to the people that we love, right? It's just, it's okay if you don't get the first answer, keep going. I'm going through this right now with my own health, going through perimenopause. The first doctor I went to, their response was, Well, you're just, you're a 48 year old woman. This is just how you have to feel. I'm like, Nope, no, thank you. Thank you. I'm glad I met with you. Now I know that you and I are not a fit, but keep searching for the person where I'm finally feeling like yes to your point that you know how to help me achieve my goals, to help me create that what I want most in my body to be happening in my life, right? I could talk to you for hours and hours, but you're incredible. So tell everybody where they can connect with you and where they can get your book.

Holly Thornton  1:03:31  
Sure, if you just go to the hardest help.com so the hardest help.com you'll find the link to my Instagram. You can order the book right off the website, which it'll connect to Amazon. And yeah, so I'm just, I'm excited to get this into as many hands as possible, because, like I said, it's the roadmap. How can you heal yourself? And again, we can't control the person, but we can control how we respond, which then if we change how we respond, we will affect the outcome and my personal story, so that you can be seen and feel heard and supported and so

Scottie Durrett  1:04:13  
well, Holly, thank you for being so open and so strong, and knowing that this is a need, right? Knowing that you know this is your story, I always imagine that, like your story is going to change a person's life today, right? And that, that ripple effect, I think, is so powerful. So thank you for your time, and thank you for writing this book, and thank you for being so brave to share your story. It's really powerful.

Holly Thornton  1:04:37  
Thank you so much. You're wonderful. Thank you.

Scottie Durrett  1:04:43  
Hey Mama, thank you so much for listening before you dive back into the beautiful chaos of your life, please take this with you. You're doing better than you think. You are not alone, and you do not have to do this on autopilot. If this episode helped you in any way, please share with a mom who needs to hear. It because we grow faster when we do it together. And if you have a second, leaving a five star review helps momplex reach more mamas who need this kind of real talk and support. If you want more support and guidance or just someone in your corner, be sure to visit scottyderette.com to learn more. Get in touch with me or dive deeper into this work until next time mom, Trust yourself, trust your gut. You already know what to do, and you are exactly the mama your kids need. I love you. I'll see you next time you.