Battlescars: Former US Marine Derek Hines from wounded to healing

Matt Cundill  0:01  
Bob, this is tear off the tape, a project from the group at I got mined, discussing the often overlooked emotional and psychological toll of trauma. Now here's your host, Bob Wilkie,

Bob Wilkie  0:18  
hi, everybody. I'd like to welcome you to another edition of tear off the tape. You know, the whole initiative is about finding people out there in the world who have interesting stories of trauma, who are willing to practice the vulnerability. You know, that's the tearing off the tape piece is a lot of times when we go through things, we hold on to a lot of it. We overthink a lot of it, and that can really slow us down. It can make life a little more difficult. And so, you know, tear off the tape. And the concept of it is when, when we start to tear off that tape of of the wounds that, you know, we've encountered as we go through life, that's when the healing can really begin. So, you know, all of these conversations that we've had and everything that you've listened to so far. If you're a regular listener, I hope that you're going to enjoy this one. If you're a new listener, I know that you're going to enjoy this one. I've got a really good friend of mine here. I've known him for a long time. It's hard to believe how quickly time passes. Derek Hines is a young man who I was introduced to while I was coaching a high school hockey team in Hershey, Pennsylvania. We won a championship together, which was a really cool experience. And I learned something about Derek in those moments, you know, he was just a very driven, very passionate, very focused, very intense individual that you don't get to experience very often, you know. And what he did for us during that time, I wasn't surprised to see what he went on to do after that. Kind of followed him through Facebook and social media. And, you know, watched Derek go through becoming a Marine, going to school, doing a couple of tours. And then afterwards, you know, is when I really started to notice that Derek was going through something similar to what I had with the trauma, and we reconnected. We've been together for a couple years now. He's joined the I got mine team, and is one of our facilitators down in the States. Really excited about having the conversation with Derek today and everything that he's experienced. So Derek, welcome to the show. All right. Thank you, Bob. Really excited to have this conversation I know, in prepping for, you know, we talked about some of the challenges of talking about some of the things that we've experienced, you know, as as you prepared for this, what were some of the things that you that you started to think about, or even worry about, heinzie, you know, when we put our story out into the world or we're going to share it, some of those reservations can can come up, and I'd like for you to share Some of that, because anybody who was out there who might be wanting to tell their story, I think it's important that they can relate to some of the challenges. What were some of the challenges you experienced in being able to talk about this today?

Derek Hines  2:53  
I think a lot of the biggest challenge is really facing my inner self. You know, there's a lot that I need to confront within myself and bring to the surface that I've done through therapy, and that's helped me exponentially to bring a lot of my issues to light and be able to talk about them and feel secure within myself. But that comes at a cause too, because a lot of my becoming vulnerable has to deal with childhood issues or military issues, and those aren't always the easiest things to talk about, especially if it's with the unfamiliar crowd. You know, being a Marine, if we want to talk about issues or problems that we're facing, we feel more comfortable doing that with the like minded individual, you know, somebody else who has similar experiences. So the biggest challenges, I think, were that just kind of prepped myself up getting ready to become vulnerable and kind of express myself in a raw, raw emotional state.

Bob Wilkie  3:53  
I think it's really important, you know too. I know a lot of times in telling my story, I can see that it makes people uncomfortable. A lot of times. You know, as you've gone through through things, Heinz, what are some of the experiences you've had with people when you start to maybe share a little bit of your story, what are some of the things that you see or feel and just how uncomfortable it can make other people?

Derek Hines  4:16  
Yeah, being able to be vulnerable, it's seeing a reaction on people's faces. It's kind of a shock to them. I think they don't really expect you to speak or speak so freely. I know a lot of people kind of hide their emotions and suppress their their feelings to what they're they want to bring this. It's a little bit puts people, I don't want to say, in awe, but makes them really reflect, to think upon themselves and and their own stories. But positively, that's that's also a positive in my mind, is it does make them kind of reflect on themselves and think that they can have the power within themselves to be vulnerable, to be raw with with individuals, a therapist or a group, and. And kind of learn to like, I have to get that weight off your chest. I think,

Bob Wilkie  5:05  
I think it's so important that we understand that when we are ready to tell our story, or when we feel like we're ready to talk about or hopefully, you know through listening to some of these episodes that you're really picking your audience, because I know a lot of times, especially when it was raw and painful for me when I started to share that I could automatically see that the other person wasn't capable of listening to anymore, right? That can be a big challenge, Heinz, is just be mindful of who you are. Sharing it with, maybe a little bit, especially in the beginning, absolutely.

Derek Hines  5:36  
Yeah, like I said, it's easier with like minded individuals. I've been to the Vet Center down here outside of Pittsburgh, and had the, I guess, the pleasure of speaking with a therapist, a counselor, who was, he was an Iraq vet, so that helped me a lot, because I was able to say certain things to him and have him understand and respond in an appropriate way. And I didn't really feel like I was talking to a stranger. Didn't feel like I was talking to an individual who didn't understand, and more or less, I'll just be telling a war story. And that's that wasn't the end result that I was looking for.

Bob Wilkie  6:15  
Yeah, so, so vitally important that we're understanding the audience that we're sharing with. So as we get into this today, you know, we you've listened to the other episodes, and what we always like to start with is just kind of, how is childhood growing up? One of the things that we have and continue to learn about who we become is that we can experience things young in life that that kind of caused that mental scarring, a little bit of that trauma and and, you know, cause us to think and act in certain ways as we're growing up and especially into adulthood, right? Because these wounds go unchecked. So yeah, if you don't mind, maybe share some of your experiences growing up and some of the things that you went through as a young man

Derek Hines  6:54  
growing up was, I guess, the best way to put it was more or less a confusing time. I grew up in a household that was predominantly a patriarch. You know, my dad was strict in his ways, and wanted my sisters and I to be essentially perfect and everything that we did. So it was hard to please, hard to please Him, which, you know, always kind of came at a cost, but at the same time he was, you know, my family was loving, where they took us on trips and vacations and gave us opportunities where I don't think a lot of other people would have been granted. So it was confusing. You know, it was, it's hard to feel completely loved. I think growing up, you know, you feel abandoned sometimes, but you feel spoiled other times, and you're not really too sure how to comprehend which emotion is should be the dominant one. So growing up was difficult at times. That's, I think, where my trauma really began was a childhood guess how my father was a patriarch and wanted things to run his way. You know, I wasn't great at school. As far as grades go. You wanted, he expected the best. It wasn't great at that. So I would cheat. Wasn't great at cheating. So I'd always get caught. And then had the tension I've gotten fights, gotten into trouble, had in school suspension, out of school suspension, and all these things were just fueling him up. You know, I don't want to say I was proving myself to be a disappointment, but, you know, it was all, I think, pent up emotion that was coming out from abuse that I suffered as a child, and not just myself. But you know, my sisters had endured some of that as well, which is hard to watch, you know, yeah, I guess we'll go from there.

Bob Wilkie  8:41  
Well, it's an interesting time, right? As parents, we're not really taught what to do, how to do it, you know, when we find ourselves on that role, we tend to act like our parents did, unfortunately, right? Because we don't know how to do certain things and and as kids, you know, again, the more that we continue to learn about this. There are needs that we have, and when those needs aren't met as young people, it can be very confusing. Like you described, when did it start to get really difficult for you? Heinzie, as a young man, that's a lot of pressure, you know, you're looking for that attention, and like you said, the love and acceptance, and it's really hard to get when they have such high standards. But you talked about fighting, you know, you talked about cheating and trying to, you know, get those good grades. So as of all those things are going on, what starts to happen in your mind to you, just in the way that you're looking at yourself and how you're going to function in this world.

Derek Hines  9:37  
Well, even, I mean, the cheating and fighting was mostly middle school, high school age, but, you know, I was not doing well well before that. Yeah, I remember being I don't remember my childhood a bit foggy. Don't remember a whole lot about it, certain instances, but I do remember at the age of 12 was the first time I tried to take my life. So I think that's where my. My a lot of the I think that was probably the climax at that age of my issues not really knowing where, where to turn, what to do, and don't think I really knew I didn't have suicidal ideation at that age. Not that I remember. It was just, I think, just a quick way to try to escape and not have to look back. And that's carried on throughout adulthood, too.

Bob Wilkie  10:25  
So you 12 years old, you try, what happened after that? What? How did that affect your household?

Derek Hines  10:34  
The response wasn't good, to be honest. I don't know if anybody knows about that, besides my father. He's the one that kind of came in, you know, from my, from what I recall the it was more like an asphyxiation attempt, but, you know, he's the one that kind of came into the bathroom and saw me there, and the response wasn't good. I don't want to really go into what was said, but essentially, you know, I got beat for that. And if you wanted to feel pain, I'm gonna make you feel pain. Was essentially the message that was sent over again.

Bob Wilkie  11:07  
I think it goes back to, you know, on the other side, right here, you are to cry for help, right? You get to that point where you just don't and then there's that reaction of, if you want to feel pain, I'll show you pain, right? Because it's, it's, it's such, creates such a fear in us that you would even consider doing that, and we don't know how to handle it. And then, and then we start to second guess how we're doing things, and all those different issues that we can experience as that person on the other side. You know, moving forward after that, Heinz, you start to get into high school and and all those different things, What? What? What starts to happen for you then

Derek Hines  11:41  
high school, you know, I played high school hockey, as you know that that kept me busy most of the time. You know, boys kind of had, I don't say, an infatuation with the military and war. I read a lot of books, and always used to love the military documentaries and the movies, and always thought that was route I wanted to go. But again, college was kind of the pursuant it was. That was, that was a way to go for my family, so that's kind of what I pursued. But high school was That's it was still a difficult time. I was still getting in trouble. I wasn't behaving the best. I remember the one time I got detention. I don't remember what I got detention for, but my punishment was my dad had drove my sister to the school, and he picked my car up, and I'd walk home from school that afternoon. So I had a good, long walk and tried, I don't know, don't remember what I thought about, hopefully, about turning my life around. But yes, high school wasn't, wasn't ideal time, either. It was still had a bit of controversy within myself

Bob Wilkie  12:49  
and it, you know, so here, here it is, you have this experience, and, you know, moving forward, it doesn't make sense, and you don't know how to do it, so we're still kind of acting out, right? I think that's a big part of people understanding when they are experiencing some sort of psychological trauma is that it does change the behavior. We call it pain based behavior, and so you're still doing these things to kind of hurt yourself too. And I don't know how you or Heinz, but a lot of times I would kind of do that to to hurt the other people, right? Because I didn't, didn't, I couldn't use my words, right? The power differential, and so I would do things that, yeah, would would kind of like be getting back at them. Did you? Did you do a lot of that simply because you couldn't use your words, because you knew that there was going to be some sort of punishment for that?

Derek Hines  13:37  
Yeah, I was, I was a tiny individual, you know? I didn't that. Was a late bloomer. I didn't grow very quickly, and so I was over, always overpowered, but not much I could do. But I do remember the one night I was laying in bed, I had hockey puck, you know, laying laying on my bed stand, and just repeatedly, I was laying in bed, just repeatedly took it up and it just dropped it kind of on my eye socket, and I'm talking about, I was black and blue and used to do, I guess, malicious and self harming things like that. You know, pretty often, never anything destructive like that would harm myself blemish. You know, I give myself any blemishes or anything like that, but enough to, I guess, make myself somewhat, I guess, feel better, in a way too.

Bob Wilkie  14:24  
That's why people experience that cutting right? It's that I can feel something. So a lot of times we will create that pain. So at least we can feel something, because, you know, it's just, it's such a hodgepodge inside, we don't even know what to feel or how to feel. So we do those types of, yeah, self abuse, right? So that we can feel something, right? Yeah? Okay, so you get you graduate high school, you're going to go the college route, because that's right, what's expected in the household is you're going to become educated. How did it go in college? Was it something that you could. Kind of like you're out on your own now, you're living away from all that. How did that go?

Derek Hines  15:04  
I enjoyed the lifestyle a lot. I made some good friends there, and I did get a good education. I went to started out at Penn State University Burke's campus on reading Pennsylvania, and played ice hockey there for two years before I transferred up to the main campus University Park for my final two years. But I did well. I think my grades weren't awful. I think I understood the assignment more of what, what the goal was. You know, I wanted a degree. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do after college. At that point, I was thinking about career law enforcement or still, military, and that's what I got my degree in, was Crime, Law and Justice. So wanted to do something along that route. I just wasn't sure exactly what. But, you know, getting in trouble kind of subsided. I wasn't doing stupid things, like it was as a kid, and I feel like I was behaving more. So had a good, good crowd of friends. I think that kind of we all kept each other in check.

Bob Wilkie  16:03  
No, it's really important that we understand that the environment really is everything. And so you're growing up in an environment where the expectations are really high. It's tough to meet those expectations for whatever reason. So we start to act out, but all sudden, there's an opportunity for a new environment like you're describing, and all of a sudden now it starts to maybe settle a little bit. You got a new friend group. You're learning things. You know, you get to graduate. What? What? Now, you know what I mean, you graduate, you're a young man in the world, and you've got to make a choice. How did you make the choice to join the military?

Derek Hines  16:36  
I think going back to my childhood, intrigue had just kind of overpowered my I wanted to do something purposeful, and I think that was a good route to go. I've always wanted to experience warfare, and I knew that, you know, with the current situation in the world, that we were there and we wouldn't be there much longer, so I didn't want to miss an opportunity either. I do regret kind of not going right after high school, because I would have been most likely in Iraq as well. So a little regret there, but I'm grateful for the opportunity that I got to serve with my friends and go overseas and kind of go through those missions

Bob Wilkie  17:20  
now, completely different environment, right? With the military, I'm sure there's the power differential, again, similar to growing up, there's a lot of expectations. You know, the training demands are really high, and the execution of those skills is quite high as well. How are you surviving? What did you enjoy about that environment?

Derek Hines  17:40  
I think I thrived in that environment. That's kind of what I was used to. I don't want to, want to quite compare my dad to a drill sergeant, but I think that going being in that strict environment where there's a tight protocol, there was you knew what you had to do every day, and everything was kind of laid out. I think I did really well. And I was older, like I said, we just talked about, I went to school before I joined the military. You know, most of these guys are joining at 1718, years old. I was 24 when I joined, and I felt like I had a lot to prove. So that's, that was my mission throughout going through boot camp. You know, we had those competitions for everything, and I ended up being the battalion Iron Man, which was the highest PFT physical, physical fitness test. So, you know, being 24 years old and out running all these 1718, year olds felt pretty good about my I think that's probably the best I felt in my life.

Bob Wilkie  18:38  
So you're going through the training, you're realizing all these things, you know, you're starting to feel good. Is there still any of that, you know, mentally, where you're confused about who you are and feeling certain ways, or is that all kind of subsided and you're and you're more driven and focused now?

Derek Hines  18:53  
Oh, definitely driven and focused. You know, the going through the Marine Corps training, a lot of a lot of the training was kind of, you're changing your mindset, becoming somebody else. They break it down, they build you back up. So I wouldn't really say it was at the front of my mind. I was kind of preoccupied with the training and learning new things. Going through boot camp, learning different weapon systems. And then after boot camp we go to I went to the School of infantry where I became a machine gunner. So lot of different steps, a lot of revolving parts, and always something new to learn. So I was keeping myself very busy. So I really at the time, I don't, I don't remember a whole lot of having any animosity at that time. It was just focusing on the current goal as

Bob Wilkie  19:42  
you're going through this Derek, you know, and it's always interesting to try and understand the different mindsets you're going through all this different training. Are you? Are you really realizing what this training is for?

Derek Hines  19:53  
They were pretty brute about the videos that we've watched in the training, and knowing that. I was going the infantry route. Yeah, I knew what the training was for. We knew that we were training to go to either Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere that somewhere in the Middle East, that, at least that was the that was the hope, you know, the intent that that's why we wanted to join, was everybody throughout boot camp that was going to infantry school. That was our motivation was to pass everything with the highest mark so we could get there quicker and get there sooner.

Bob Wilkie  20:24  
What were some of the things that you started to see in your brothers? Right? We talked about environment, and you've talked a little bit about, you know, some of the different environments you've grown up. How did this one really support you? How did you feel with with everybody else that you were with? How did that help you?

Derek Hines  20:41  
Well, as I said, I was one of the older guys, so I felt kind of like a mentor. Kind of gave a lot of insight. A lot of these guys were away from home for the very first time. You know, they lived with their parents up until the day boot camp came, and then all of a sudden, they're in a brand new place, living in a barracks with, you know, you got the chow hall, you're told where to go and what to do and how to do it, and so it's very different environment. A lot of them, I'm not sure they really grew up anywhere near having a strict environment, but it was helpful for me, for me to kind of take on that leadership role early and kind of give that guidance.

Bob Wilkie  21:17  
One of the things that I really noticed and admired about you when when we were together at Hershey there playing the high school hockey, is that you you love those leadership roles, and you were so good at supporting your teammates and seeing when other people you know kind of needed that. Do you think that that's because maybe that's didn't, it's because you didn't get that sort of thing? Is that why you provided so much of that to your teammates?

Derek Hines  21:40  
I've always felt good about helping people. I've always wanted to be friends, be friendly, have friends. I've always wanted to, you know, kind of be the good guy, where people can lean on me and rely on me. So I think that, and maybe that has a big part to do with it, you know, I didn't have a lot of childhood friends, not till I was at least in high school age. You know, I didn't have a lot of sleepovers, a lot of like, play dates, if you want to call them that, you know. So I spent a lot of time alone, I think. So, yeah, I didn't really have the opportunity to, I guess, have a social leadership role before,

Bob Wilkie  22:16  
okay, so you've gone through the training, you're proven your leadership, and you get the news that you're going to be deployed, what starts to happen for you now, as you're again, leaving everything that you know going to a completely different place where you don't know what's going to happen.

Derek Hines  22:33  
And I'm excited. I think I mentioned that I was reading through my journal. I kept the journal throughout my first deployment of not every day, but, you know, every other day, a couple days a week. But I remember writing in there before that, excited to go. I had my my deployment song that I would listen to to hype myself up. And I think everybody was excited. That was, that's why we joined. That's why we, you know, we wanted to fight. We were trained. We had the last, I don't know how many months we had, up to a year of training, pre deployment training, going to California for three months to train there in the high altitude climate and mountains. So I think everybody was ready. We're excited to go as far as myself, you know, I I was excited. I expected the worst, I think. And as I said, I wrote my journal. I wanted to die an honorable death. So I think joining was almost another way to escape. You know, I didn't expect to be killed, but I almost wanted to. I think that's also why I became a machine gunner. You know, I was familiar with the death rates of machine gunners in Iraq, and I think that was one of the most dangerous jobs throughout the infantry. So that's, that's why I wanted to go that route

Bob Wilkie  23:44  
so, so deep inside you somewhere, there's still that desire that if you're going to go out, you're going to go out in a blaze of glory.

Derek Hines  23:52  
Yeah, that's it. Yep, that way, I wouldn't go people down to, you know, any other way. They wouldn't be questioning, they wouldn't have thoughts of, it's my fault. It would just, I want to say, like a suicide by cop type of thing, but almost going to that environment is what I was anticipating.

Bob Wilkie  24:11  
You mentioned that you were going through your journals. You know, it's something that that, again, I think really helped me was learning that ability to be able to be able to do that. When? When were you introduced to that? Heinz, if you're starting to take that on your first tour, when did you start to use the journal?

Derek Hines  24:27  
That was, think that was the first time I've never journaled anytime as a kid. I've never written down thoughts that I've had. So I'm not sure. I think my dad was the one who gave me the journal, and that's what prompted me to kind of keep track of dates and you know, where we've been, what we're doing. And I'm very grateful I have that experience. I have that memory book there, because a lot of it doesn't I don't remember. I had to go back and read it, and that's how I kind of refresh myself.

Bob Wilkie  24:57  
How was the conversation when you told your family that you were. Going over.

Derek Hines  25:01  
They weren't excited. My mom was distraught. You know, she they're reading news about Afghanistan, and especially, particularly the area that we were going we went to in 2011 we deployed to Sangan, Afghanistan, which is in the southern Helmand Province, and it's known, it's a widely known Taliban minefield. So they weren't stoked about it. You know, they knew that they're reading on the news about Sangin. There was a battle of Sangin, you could read about from 2010 with the British who fought there, and then, kind of, the Marines took it over from the British. And so it's a real chronological story of the city that's been trying to be kind of taken over by the are controlled. I guess you'd say

Bob Wilkie  25:42  
the you get over there. I can't imagine. I would love for you to be able to share with people. What did you start to see and what did it start? What effect did it start to have on you as you were seeing this,

Derek Hines  25:55  
there was a lot to see in the smell that the smells, I think, stick with me more than the sites, especially, you know, a lot of rotting animals on the side of the street. I don't want to say street. They didn't it was all, pretty much all dirt path roads and things like that. We did have a paved road at the end of the deployment that we granted them. I don't know. I just how they got it, but we gave it to them. But, um, I mean, seeing some things have definitely haunted me, and that happened early on. You know, the first time I saw somebody die was my first kill was in January, and that was month after we deployed. I still see his face pretty often. Luckily, my staff sergeant tossed me out of going down to do the body assessment afterwards. You know, my corpsman went down, and a few other the Marines went down to go assess the bodies, make sure, you know, no weapons on or anything like that. And you know, corpsman told me what he saw, so that's, that's kind of the memory that I have of it, besides the last image of his face. So that affects me. I still think about him. And I think about that often, and what I think about most, and I think what affects me the most is the children. You know, we've had so many kids that have gotten blown up, that lost limbs, and especially in in this situation where I mentioned, you know, after these, these two individuals were killed, the family came out from their compounds, and they just wailed and cried, and the kids screamed, and that went on for hours. They, you know, all throughout the entire night, weren't able to sleep. So that affected me pretty good throughout my life. You know, hearing babies cry, and even raising my own daughters, hearing them cry and wail, and feeling feeling like I'm helpless, like I don't know what to do, like I can't help and, you know, because I couldn't help these families, I think the children is what gets to me the most. I you know that I remember the one child who had stepped on a pressure plate, and he all his other friends ran him to the Envy checkpoint, and my friend Flynn and I were the first ones to get him and his, you know, he's his foot was hanging off. He had three tendons supporting it, and I was holding his foot up, but it was split into a V the burn, the heel burn was protruding, so it was just a gnarly sight for this little individual, you know. And you see these kids are walking around Afghanistan with makeshift crunches and missing limbs. And you're like, how can these, how can a Taliban be destroying their own people willingly like this? Like they know what they're doing, but they're just trying to control and put fear into those, those local nationals.

Bob Wilkie  28:33  
I mean, I gotta ask you guys are seeing this all together, right? You're young men. A lot of them, you said, are a lot younger than you. What are some of the conversations that are happening? I'm really curious. Are you guys talking about these things? Are you just, you know, like, I know when I went through mine, we all kind of knew what we had gone through. A couple of us had seen some, you know, very horrific things. We never really talked about it, but we always quietly, kind of knew what each other was struggling with. Did you guys talk about these things at all, or was it just, you keep bonding together and just keep moving forward,

Derek Hines  29:08  
keep moving forward. That's the mission. You know, you're, I don't want to say you're trained to see these things or to become numb or to dissociate from these kind of things. But at the time, you know, being in that, in that environment at the time, it's, it's cool, you know, like, oh shit, somebody got blown up. Wow, let's go check them out. And it's more of an intrigue, like, that's what we're here for, you know, that's, that's what we signed up for, is to be part of this war and to see death and destruction and But fast forward 20 years, and you're thinking back about it. And, you know, once you have kids, you think about the kids there. And I think one of the things that scares me the most is a lot of those kids who are, you know, 1012, years old. That was 2011 so going back 15 years for me, you know, all those kids are military age. Now, they're all individuals who lost their fathers and lost their brothers and. You know, who's to say they're not pissed off and they're planning the next terrorist attack that we might have developed, we might have caused, you know? So I always, I don't want to, I don't know if that's guilt, what you want to call that, but I always have that worry in the back of my mind.

Matt Cundill  30:18  
And now more with Bob Wilkie and tear off the tape.

Bob Wilkie  30:24  
You finish one tour. What happens after you finish your first tour? What are you doing now?

Derek Hines  30:29  
Well, finished the first tour, we came back, we were actually supposed to redeploy in about six or seven months. As soon as we got back, we got fresh Marines, we got a boot drop, we were supposed to redeploy pretty quickly. However, that's when our suicides plague started. One of my, my close friends, he was also also a machine gunner, took his life, and our second employment got pushed back a few months, I guess, you know, to investigate and to deal with that. But, you know, as far as myself, I went to, I furthered my education and machine guns. I went to the infantry machine guns leaders, course. So that was the highest school we can go to for machine gunners. So I completed that. And then by the time that was over, we were ready to redeploy. So, yeah, so, yeah, just getting ready, going back to California for a couple of months, came back and set sail.

Bob Wilkie  31:26  
I'm really curious about your your hunger for information. You continue to learn. You know, you go from high school to college, you get that degree, you get into the military. They offer a bunch of training. Now you're on on leave, and you're going back to school again. What was it about learning that that was so important to you? Heinz, I

Derek Hines  31:46  
want to be knowledgeable. I want to be intelligent about things when I discuss them, you know, I want to have insight that I'm not just rambling, but I know what I'm talking about. And I always think that there's something new to learn, which is fascinating. So going back to school, and we'll mention that after, like, post military life, but especially in the military, there's always kind of something to something to do. There's something to learn. You know, when you're not deployed, you're sitting back in the rear in the barracks, and it's like, well, what do we do today? We could go train, do machine gun drills. We could learn knowledge, go to the gym. There's not a whole lot to do for infantry Marines when there's, you know, you're not deployed. So they had a school called the Marine Corps Institute, and there you could take horses from anything you wanted to I think there was hundreds of courses you could take. And they, you know, they, I think they challenge for college credits once you get out. I don't quite remember, but under that was an incentive, guys real encouraged to do them.

Bob Wilkie  32:48  
Okay, so now you're getting ready for your second deployment. You've lost one of your brothers, you've gone to school, and now the news comes that you're going back again. How do you prepare? What sorts of things are going on for you, knowing that you're going back into the line stuff?

Derek Hines  33:04  
Well, we actually had a lot of guys who didn't want to redeploy, so they got out of the unit and transferred to a different unit, which I believe, I think they went to Hawaii. I can't quite remember. Some of them did, but the ones of us, the few of us that did stay with the new Marines that we had got. And at this point, you know, since we lost a lot of Marines to a different unit, my position went up. So I got, I was a team leader. At this point, I had my own team of my own team of machine gunners. And going into the second deployment, you know, all the new guys were eager. They're they wanted to know the stories. They wanted to hear about it, and they wanted to know what to expect, because we did lose two guys, two close guys from my platoon or my company early on in Sangan. So they knew that the threat was real. They knew that the lions den was was a real place, a real threat.

Bob Wilkie  34:03  
You start your second deployment, you start to see things again. Are you thinking that it's time to get out? Have you had enough? Is there any point in the second tour Heinz where you think maybe that's enough?

Derek Hines  34:16  
What happened was that my breaking point the second deployment was when my vehicle had struck an IED luckily, we had a mine roller on the front of the on front of the MRAP. So essentially, what it is is a big rake of wheels that just pushes in front of the vehicle, and that's what hit the pressure plate, and that's what took the brunt of the force. So luckily, no serious injuries. You know my driver, I was the dismount team leader, so I was in the back of the vehicle. I would be the first one out, open the doors, get out and secure the area. He claims I lost consciousness. I don't, I don't remember. I don't. I just remember seeing, right now, I remember seeing a bright orange flash. That's about it, until we got out of the vehicle. Provided security until we had another team come to help us, you know, pick us up, essentially, get the vehicle out of there. So I think that was the breaking point where, you know, at the at the time, I was married before my first deployment, so we were looking to start a family, and I was thinking that, you know, being a machine gunner and going through the highest school that I could just, I could always not move to be a different MOS, like a few my buddies became snipers, a few of them went to different schools. So that was always an option. But I thought there was something better after the Marine Corps. So regrettably, I mean, I wish I would have stayed in now and done the full 20 years. I'd be almost there. But, you know, I live with that decision, and I'm happy, happy with it still that I got out and pursued the the after aftermath.

Bob Wilkie  35:56  
So, so you got married after your first deployment. How did that all go? How did you meet, and what did that start to provide for you? Because I know that that was one of the things that really started to change the way that I was thinking about myself and some of the thoughts, how was it for you when you've got this new relationship that's so fulfilling?

Derek Hines  36:15  
Well, actually, we met in college when I was attending main campus at Penn State. So we met early, and we actually nobody knows about this until, I guess, right now, and my parents and her parents, but we actually got married in 2010 before I deployed my first deployment. Secretly, we got married by a judge. It was, like a little, not even a ceremony. It was in just, I think it was in the living room, but, yeah, nobody knows about that. So we actually got married before we had a wedding. You know, we had the wedding after my first deployment, and carried on after that. But that was, I mean, that was a happy time. I was going through a lot of good stuff to the military, had a new relationship and, yeah, things were good.

Bob Wilkie  37:02  
Then as you're as you're deployed now, and you've got someone you know kind of waiting back for you. Is that changing how you're feeling about things? You know you talked about, that breaking point of going through the explosion with where you're at, you start to think a lot differently about her and the future. I think

Derek Hines  37:23  
it did. You know, I talked about suicidal ideation and wanting to experience something malicious, but at that point, I don't think I did. Come my second employment. I think my mindset was a little bit different. You know, I was happily married. We were trying to start a family. I had a great group of friends. Things were things were good. So I don't think I had that ideation. I don't think I was even thinking about putting myself in harm's way in a, you know, in a intently. So yeah, that being the breaking point where I realized, well, shit, I guess I knew the threat was real, but kind of experiencing something firsthand like that really put more of a made more of an impact on how I really felt.

Bob Wilkie  38:15  
Okay, so you end your second tour, and the decision is that you're out. What starts to happen now,

Derek Hines  38:22  
I looked for work right after I got out, and I did, I found work out in California, so I packed her up and moved out there for a couple of years. I was working for an executive protection firm, and that's where we had my first daughter, Violet, and but that's so things are going really well, but that's really where I started to notice a mental decline. You know, I was working a lot of hours, and I wasn't being present for my wife at the time, and I I inside. I think I knew that. I don't want to say I was pushing everybody and everything away just because I felt numb and I felt disassociated or depersonalized. But I think in a sense that that's the the trauma from everything building up and bottling up inside has really tarnished my my perception and ability to have a genuine relationship

Bob Wilkie  39:21  
when we're wounded like that, it starts to take over, I know, for me, and then there's all this sort of, yeah, just deviant behavior, right? Trying to feel something or trying to numb even more. Mine, you know, got into some, some pretty high risk taking, you know, lots of excess, whether it was drinking or drugs, things like that. What were some of the things you were experiencing and trying to manage this, this thing that you don't really know anything about, just that it's not good.

Derek Hines  39:53  
I turned to just about everything. You know, I think I have a little bit of an addictive personality. So. So I was trying to find that thrill seeking again, that adrenaline that I experienced in the Marine Corps. You know, that was all now you get out and you're back in the civilian world, and you're trying to adjust with you don't know how to treat people, or how to respond to people, and it's a difficult re acclimation process, and it's very lonely, too. You know, you don't have your brothers next to you, where you can joke about the same the things that you joked about or talk about, the things you talked about, things become, you know, you become more isolated and secluded. So I did turn to alcohol. That was my I guess it was my way to escape reality. It made me happier. It, I mean, I know it's a depressant. I'm sure, in the end result, didn't make me happier, but in that time, it made me light hearted. I think it didn't make me as down. But that, you know, I started drinking in excess, where I was drinking between six to 12 beers a day. I drink Blue Moon. So you know, when I had my daughters, I wouldn't drink when they go to bed. I might have one or two, but the days I didn't have them, it was that's, that's pretty much what I did. That's how I numbed and coped, and it made me feel better, I think.

Bob Wilkie  41:12  
And because we have these things that are going on underneath that we don't know how to talk about, we don't know how to share, we develop these coping mechanisms. What starts to happen to the relationship? You've got a new little, young one. What's starting to happen within that relationship, and what's that causing for you? Heinz, because I know for me it, you know, it really made me feel like I was failing. Made me feel like I was letting them down, you know. So it was kind of adding to the pile of shit that I was already carrying around, making it even worse. How was it for you?

Derek Hines  41:40  
Well, things in California weren't awful, you know, like I said, I was working a lot, so I was distracted. We were only in California for about two years until we moved to Pittsburgh, and that's where I enrolled in mortuary school. I enrolled to go to mortuary school. I went to Point Park University and got a Bachelor's there, and then from there, I enrolled in mortuary school and got an Associates there. But through that time, when I was going to Point Park University, we had the newborn baby. I think we had VEDA at this time too. So we had two babies. They were 19 months apart, and going to school, trying to work and fulfilling an internship. You know, I was frazzled, and that's when my anger really came out. You know, I I've been seen for anger from my behavioral therapist. I don't want to say I had intermittent, intermittent explosive disorder, but I couldn't see, you know, everything I was seeing was red. Everything was a threat. I couldn't thrive. I couldn't as like a family man. It wasn't existent. I wasn't there. I was I was just someplace else, and I wasn't giving anybody my best, except nobody. I can't even say for myself.

Bob Wilkie  42:58  
For me, it was around 2002 I think that there was some there was an HBO special, and they were talking about, I think it was Iraq at the time, and then talking about Vietnam and PTSD started to come out. That was the first time I had ever heard that. And it started to really complete a lot of the pictures of doubt that I had, you know, why am I feeling this? Why am I acting this way? And I watched this series, and it's like, oh my god. Like, that's everything that I'm feeling. So I must be having that, you know, post traumatic stress disorder. So you're under all this stress heightens, you know, you've got all these things from the past, and you're kind of masking them and covering them up with the alcohol you talked about, starting to Red Line this excessive stress of trying to provide for your family be a good husband. Be a good father, and deal with all this shit that you're carrying around. You talk about not being able to be 100% for everybody. What's that starting to cause for you? Because I know for me, that's when it really started to get dark. What started to happen for you when you felt like none of it was work.

Derek Hines  44:01  
I felt well, not only a sense of letting everybody, including myself, down. You know, I drifted back into another state of confusion, like, what am I? Why am I like this? Why I used to be look at the way I was in the military, so motivated and I was dedicated to pursuing goals, and now it just seems like I can't control my emotions. I'm dealing with fear, and I'm dealing with like, a different type of fear than being in combat, but you're at home, and you don't want to fail. You know you have now. You have little ones relying on you, you have a spouse relying on you, and a new career, and you want to make it in a civilian world. You know you don't want to live by those stereotypes of veterans getting out and kind of being, you know, not not working towards anything. So I wanted to, my dad trained me to be I wanted to be perfect. I wanted to have that lifestyle where I didn't have to worry about anything and I was causing too much stress. I wasn't. Focusing on my family or my everything was negative self talk. It was I see the world in cloudy colored glasses. It's just nothing's nothing's right? So I was having a hard time living just adjusting and being there for anybody.

Bob Wilkie  45:19  
What starts to happen to the relationship.

Derek Hines  45:22  
It started to crumble. You know, she told me to seek help, and course, now I don't need help. You know, don't need that. I don't need I can rely on myself. That's what I've done my entire life, was talk to myself and get myself through these problems. So, you know, going through school and internship and working, I didn't have time to go to the doctor, so I just that it wasn't even really a thought for me at the time. And things got worse. Ultimately, we did get divorced. After 11 years of marriage, we divorced, and that was, I think, about 655, or six years ago.

Bob Wilkie  45:58  
Now. Okay, so that ends, you know, you're in a profession. How did you start to feel about what your future looked like? What's going on for you now? Because you've got another ending, right? And and so you found these things that filled you up and kind of met some of those needs that you had. And you know, you feel like you're failing at that. And then that ends, where are you going now? Heinz, what's happening?

Derek Hines  46:23  
Well, you know, things kind of went downhill for me internally, you know, psychologically, I just feel like a failure. Didn't have anywhere to turn. So I moved back to Harrisburg to be closer to my mom, and I lived with her for a few months until I was able to find a place to go. But, you know, everything kind of fell apart. I felt at one point like I was on top of the world. I was succeeding, and I was in the had a great job, had a family, was making good money, and then all of a sudden, like everything just just felt like a wave that crashed down between trying to deal with emotions, trying to deal with, again, malicious and suicidal thoughts coming back, not good enough. I can't do this. Like, why am I not succeeding? I should be better than this. So a lot of blame and a lot of self doubt, a lot of negative self talk. And this was before I was seeking therapy or any kind of treatment. So really, I was just in a pit.

Bob Wilkie  47:21  
Rock bottom is an awful place, and unfortunately, you know, those of us who experience some hardships and challenges of life with that trauma, it can be very difficult to ask for help, to realize the importance of help. You know when, when you hit that rock bottom, you've got one of two decisions, and you made the decision that maybe it's time to ask for help. How difficult was that for you to to ask for help? For the first time?

Derek Hines  47:47  
It was difficult. It was because I felt like I didn't need it, you know, I thought I was fine. I'm like, this is the way I was just trained. This is the way they want us to be. Unfortunately, the timeline where I did seek help was a tad bit too late. It was, you know, I was, I became affiliated with Wounded Warrior Project, and I was going on my first Odyssey with them to West Virginia. And I just remember I was packing everything up, and I don't want to say verbatim, but, you know, my wife at the time, said, when you get back, we're, you know, that's, that's going to be it. And essentially, was it. That didn't deter me from seeking treatment, seeking help. You know, I moved to Harrisburg and I got affiliated with the Vet Center down there. That's when I started going to behavioral health appointments and getting TBI screens and PTSD screens and, you know, getting everything checked out. And really, I don't want to put the blame on, you know, any disorder or thing like that, but I want to say that that had a not understanding what I was going through and what I needed definitely played a huge impact on my relationship and my life, my my way of life.

Bob Wilkie  48:57  
So now you start to find out there's a better way. What starts to happen for you now, Heinz, you're going to wounded warriors. You're getting the support. It really interesting that you're kind of connecting with with your your tribe, again, right? Different people who understand what you've been through. Again, stresses the importance of the community that we're a part of. How are those guys helping you? Because they were going through similar things, reconnecting with your tribe. How helpful was that to

Derek Hines  49:21  
you, it was been tremendously helpful. And you know, Bob, you yourself a part of my tribe. I got reconnected so early. And you know, I have my Success Strategies for men book here, and I have all my my the schedules that you mailed me, and all these great things. And that's, I think you're one of the first people where I learned to practice gratitude from to really recognize that. So my tribes, the the one in Warrior Project, the Semper Fi fund. You know now I do a lot of volunteer work with the ray of hope, which is, it's a suicide prevention and awareness Task Force, and you. Everything, just, it's very therapeutic to give back to the community, to not give back to the community, but to be able to support and help and be there for people who don't have anywhere else to turn. So as far as you know, when I seek My own treatment, it's, it's for myself, but it helps me to treat other people too, in a way, yeah,

Bob Wilkie  50:21  
being a service, I think, is one of the most rewarding things that we can do, but it's even more rewarding when we know that we're in a good place to be able to truly help them. I know for a long time, you know, being in my little bubble and denying myself all these opportunities, I was always really supportive for my teammates. I remember, you know, kind of be in that voice, a reason that couldn't take my own fucking advice, right? So good at giving it, not good at implementing it as you're as you're starting to help other people. What are you starting to realize about

Derek Hines  50:53  
yourself helping other people? I was helping myself, and it felt it felt great. It felt like had a purpose, and it felt like, I like life had a meaning again. You know, I don't know what year it was like. I said, we went through a plague of suicides. I don't have my journal next to me, but I think we're close to 11 suicides from my unit saying that's a lot of guys, that's a lot of people. That's more than we lost in combat. That's and that's the sad thing about that, is there's no discrepancy. There's no, I mean, we had Lance Corporals that died by a suicide, and I have a sergeant major who died by a suicide. So age isn't really a factor. There's demographics. It's interesting that it's, you know, I'd like to study the demographics more to really see, but they don't really seem to matter when it comes to those thoughts.

Bob Wilkie  51:49  
I mean, it's interesting, right? It doesn't matter when, when we experience that. It doesn't matter trauma. Trauma doesn't specify, right? White males, 40 to 45 it touches everybody, and that can be a hard part, too. You know, as as you're starting this healing path, and you're starting to get involved in community, and you're wanting to support other people, and this terrible news of another lost teammate starts to come in, what's going on for you?

Derek Hines  52:20  
Eventually you had to. It's very discouraging. You don't know how to help. I tried to help. I'm currently trying to help. I have a Facebook group of about 1000 members for my unit called two way brothers, outreach and support. So the purpose of it is, if anybody's struggling, if anybody's having bad thoughts, suicidal ideation, is, I put a message on there, and you have a whole community of guys who, you know, who have experienced the same things, who are going to reach out to you and get back to you and make sure that you're safe. So that's, that's, you know, one thing I like to do, and to make sure my guys have a resource that they can utilize.

Bob Wilkie  53:01  
You've gone through a lot of healing. You've been you've been through a lot of retreats using a lot of the help and support that organizations like Wounded Warriors have put together. What are some of the most valuable things that you've learned to help you deal with the things you've experienced in life? Heinz, what's working for you?

Derek Hines  53:16  
What's working for me is use this as an example of doing this podcast and being able to speak about trauma. You know, that's something that's always been it's kind of a shunned thing. You know, people aren't really expected to talk about their experiences and what they've gone through or what they what they have experienced, but it's very uplifting, kind of a sense of enlightenment, to be able to get it out. We were

Bob Wilkie  53:40  
just talking about the different tools and strategies, things that you've learned to kind of help yourself, right? You talked about the journaling. Heinz, you know, it's something that you've been doing since before your first employment as that helped. And what else have you learned?

Derek Hines  53:56  
Yeah, journaling has helped. It's helped quite a bit, actually, just getting your thoughts on paper and not not keeping things stuff down inside. You know, it's easier to talk, it's easier to write and get your thoughts on ink than it is to talk to somebody most of the time, especially journaling about gratitude, that's one thing I practice, is gratitude, affirmations, having a daily somebody who inspires you. I think that's important to start off your day every morning and with the right mindset. Other things like practicing mindfulness has been good for me too, just being in the moment, realizing, you know, where am I right now? Am I present? Where are my feet? Where my feet are, is where I'm at. You know, breathing at the same time and learning to control my my state, my own state, I guess, to calm myself down in any environment. So a lot of tools I've learned. Lot of I think I have a pretty big toolbox as far as what to do whenever different scenarios or circumstances arise. But. There's those. Are a few of them.

Bob Wilkie  55:01  
You've created a journal for your military brothers. Do you have a copy of that? Yes, if you wouldn't mind showing that. Derek, I think, I think it's really helpful for anybody who's out there that has a military background that might want to, you know, look at something if they're struggling a little bit, you just show us a little bit and talk about, yeah. There you go.

Derek Hines  55:18  
Yep. So this is it. Here is called mindful gratitude. And what it is, it's a six month gratitude journal. It's pretty it's a simple format, you know, so there's not much. You don't have to do much, much writing. And that was the intent, was to make it easy and simple, so it's just something you practice every morning or every night. And you can see the inside has every page has three things that you're grateful for, three affirmations for the day, someone who inspires you. And then there's a quote, and, you know, a picture at the bottom for every page, all military related, all different. So all the courts have to do with gratitude. So every day, you have something inspiring to to look at and read to or to end your day. You know which, whichever you prefer.

Bob Wilkie  56:05  
Somebody who may be out there that's struggling a little bit. They could be any walk of life. Again, we've talked about trauma touches everybody. What would be some words of wisdom that you would share with somebody who might be listening to this that's experienced something? How did they begin?

Derek Hines  56:20  
It is tough to begin. We mentioned that that's probably the hardest part, is taking that first step and learning how to be vulnerable and trust somebody enough to talk. But I think that's the first step, is finding somebody who is trustworthy that to that individual, and sometimes even a stranger, is the easiest person to talk to, either the most non judgmental. They can't, they're not going to, you know, judge you in any way. But I think the first step is, even if it's anonymously, you know, go on a group chat or a group setting and post an anonymous post that you might be experiencing certain things, and see what people say. Back to I always, you know, within my circle, I give my number out to everybody. I encourage them to reach out to me if there's anything that they're dealing with any type of problem. So there's guys out there like me who are willing to talk to you, and if you know we're strangers, I could be a stranger to you, and you could talk to me and get a load off your chest and probably feel great about it, and I'll feel better about helping you, because that helps myself

Bob Wilkie  57:20  
for anybody that's listening, that might want to reach out to you. You talked about your Facebook page. How do they find you?

Derek Hines  57:25  
Dirk, you could find my Facebook page is called 282, dash, eight brothers in arms, outreach on support. And primarily it was a page just for my unit, but it's been growing. It's been, you know, it's not entirely active. We do wish people happy birthday every day that comes across my my board. So I'm, I'm sure, to do that for everybody. But it's a good thing that it's not very active, because we do use it as like if somebody's struggling. So not something I mind. But is there for people want to, if they want to join, if they want to put their thoughts out there and have a bunch of Marines kind of surround them and show that camaraderie

Bob Wilkie  58:03  
one of the things a lot of times, I know we don't spend a lot of time because we're achievers. You know, we like to we like to accomplish things, so we very rarely spend some time in reflection and what we're proud of and the things that we've been able to do. Derek, you've done such a great job of sharing your story. I'm really thankful. And I'd be really curious to kind of wind up the episode with, what are you most proud of, for of yourself, what? What is it that you've done, that you're that you're really proud?

Derek Hines  58:29  
Is a tough question, because I don't, I don't take a lot of pride. I don't feel a lot of pride in things I do. Like, especially the journal. People are like, holy shit, you published a book. It's a journal, it's on Amazon? It's you're doing this. And I'm like, I needed something to do for the summer, and this was my project. So, I mean, I am proud of it, but I don't feel entirely prideful of completing it. I guess that's the project. But I think right now, the thing I'm most proud of is I do, like I mentioned, a lot of volunteer work with the ray of hope and also heroes never learn. I've been volunteering with them a lot of some veteran events, but mostly just mental wellness events. So being able to talk on panels and being able to give insight to people that need it, who want to listen and who want to maybe build up the courage to try it on their own. Yeah, I think that's that's been most helpful. Yeah, I

Bob Wilkie  59:25  
know for me, a lot of the part of practicing the attitude of gratitude, I'll be writing things like, I'm grateful for the skills I've been able to develop to live this new life. You know, I'm proud of being able to create healthy relationships in my life, I found that, you know, really taking pride in the work that we do can be really helpful. So continue down that path and continue to realize heinzie, that there's a lot that you need to be proud of, the fact that you're still here, and the fact that you're trying to make a difference, and the fact that you're such a wonderful father to. Daughters, you know, seeing all those posts on Facebook and how they've grown, my goodness, I'm sure that brings you a sense of pride spending time with them.

Derek Hines  1:00:08  
I'm very proud of them. Yeah, that that brings, that's my purpose now, is raising them to be the most beautiful little humans that'll grow up and live a successful and happy life. And yeah, I wouldn't wish for anything other they're I'm entirely grateful for them.

Bob Wilkie  1:00:23  
Derek, I want to thank you for, you know, tearing off the tape with us. I know that it's going to impact a lot of people out there, being able to share your story. It's not something that a lot of people on this planet experience, is being in the military and doing what you did. I really want to thank you for your vulnerability and showing people how to tear off the tape.

Derek Hines  1:00:41  
All right, thank you, Bob, thanks for having me, and it's always a pleasure to see you.

Bob Wilkie  1:00:45  
What a great episode and a great conversation. You know, Derek shared so many different things that happened to him. You know what it caused, the low and dark places that it took him, but you know the courage and the vulnerability to share that story, and how he continues to work on that and and how being of service of others, you know, really putting yourself into a position where you can be healthy enough to do that. And I think the most important thing that I've learned, and I hope that you get from all of our episodes, is that you need to be the best version for you, and it can be awkward and difficult to start that conversation, but practice tearing off that tape, and things do get better. You can live the life that you want. So thank you so much for listening to the episode, and we'll see in the next one coming up soon, you've been

Matt Cundill  1:01:35  
listening to tear off the tape for more about this show and how you can continue the dialog about trauma. Go to I got mind.ca. A production of the sound off media company. You.