The Invisible Wheelchair: Understanding Unseen Trauma

Matt Cundill  0:01  
This is tear off the tape, a project from the group at I got mined, discussing the often overlooked emotional and psychological toll of trauma. Now here's your host, Bob Wilkie,

Bob Wilkie  0:18  
hi everybody. I'd like to welcome you to episode on tear off the tape. We're really excited to be here today. We got a great guest planned. You know, this whole initiative is about being able to help people understand that we all go through things in life that cause that mental, emotional pain, the psychological pain, the trauma. And one of the most important things you're going to find through all the conversations that we have here is, you know, the power of vulnerability, when we can just be open and honest about what we experienced and how it affected us. And most importantly, you know, the story that we're going to be telling today is some of the things that we learn to overcome, the difficulties that we experience in life. My guest today is someone I've known for a long part of my life, almost 40 years. Hard to believe he's been a father to me at times, a mentor to me at times, you know, just so invaluable, especially at a certain time in my life when I needed that type of thing. And you know, when you build relationships like that. It's amazing how they continue. And here we are, 40 years later, where we're still connected and, you know, supporting each other in different ways, going on trips and having all that sort of fun. His name is Bob Harriman. Bob was my billet dad in Swift Current, so it was quite confusing at our house, because we had two Bobs, so I was Bob Wilkie and he was Dad, and it was just an interesting experience. And I'm thrilled to have Bob here. We've had so many different experiences over the course of our lifetime together, and I'm really excited to have him here today. So Bob, welcome to tear off the tape.

Bob Harriman  1:54  
Well, thanks Bob, and thanks for the great introduction. I'm not sure I meet all the standards that you're talking about here, but, yeah, it's great to be

Bob Wilkie  2:03  
here, really excited for the conversation. I think you're going to be able to provide so much. I know you did provide a lot of insights to me as I was going through the trauma that I experienced at 17 years old, that helped me understand a little bit of what I was going through. And we'll get into that today. One of the things that's important for people when they're listening to this. And really, you know, kind of making that decision is to do some some digging, you know, getting into kind of how we grew up and what we're learning about trauma. Is a lot of the experiences we have as young people can kind of determine how things are going to go in the future. So Bob, you know, tell us some stories about what it was like for you growing up? Where did you grow up? Brothers and sisters, what's the deal?

Bob Harriman  2:46  
That's a question that has to take me back a long way, as you can imagine, knowing you for 40 years, and now you're asking about my character. So the I was born and brought up in Montreal, and I was brought up in a kind of an interesting family. I had one brother who was five years older than me and who probably wasn't really interested in having a little little brother running around behind him. So it was kind of a unique situation where I was pretty well left to sort things out, you know, without the Big Brother help, so to speak, and to complicate things, probably the most complicating it was my mom, unfortunately suffered from mental illness from probably when I turned four. It was really debilitating. She really struggled with just life in general, and that's that lasted, well, her entire lifetime, and kind of left me again, mostly on my own, that sorts things out, the mother figure that you know, folks have in my case, wasn't there my dad? God love him. He, he kept working hard to pay the bills and hold down they did together as best he could, and also his number one focus was looking after my mom. So it was an interesting childhood where I can tell you, I probably had to run a Montreal. I can remember climbing on 10 speeds and roaring around the Montreal to all hours of day and all hours of night, and probably making some poor choices. So that's, that's the first 16 years. Then we moved to Ottawa, and what I went through high school in Ottawa.

Bob Wilkie  4:33  
So when, when you're growing up with that, and, you know, I think about the times my dad struggled too, with his mental health, you know, struggling with anxiety depression at that time in the world. They called them nervous breakdowns. And so dad had to, you know, disappear at different times. And it was really, it was scary for me, Bob, you know, at 10 years old, and all sudden, my dad disappears. Because, you know, he's had this nervous breakdown, and nobody knows what it was, and When's he coming back. What were some of the things that you were going through when mom was struggling and left to your own devices? Because they probably didn't explain

Bob Harriman  5:12  
a lot. No, it's, it was interesting to try and understand mental illness. And when you say nervous breakdown, that's what it was called, when I when I was young, and mom would hit bottom, so to speak, it was really scary, to the point where the odd time in the in those days when things were not going well in the household, and my dad would have to literally commit my mom to a mental institution would be the police that shore up. So you can imagine, you know, to use your term, a 10 year old and confused about what was going on that happened more than once in our household. So when you talk about having to sort things out on your own and having to figure out what life was like, it was, it was quite a journey in those times even more so. And I'm talking, you know, I was born in 55 so now let's talk about 1966 to roll it up to 10 years. That's a that was a time when nobody wanted to talk about mental illness. I always called it the invisible wheelchair. My mom was totally in a wheelchair, but no one could see that wheelchair. So, you know, the support she needed to do everyday life was there inside the family, but outside the family, we didn't have a lot of family coming over for a visit, and we didn't have a lot of friends in our house. So it was, it was a hard thing to sort out, because this strange thing called mental illness was alive Well, on our own.

Bob Wilkie  6:45  
I'm really curious, because I'm an older brother and you were a younger brother, and so I know, for me, you know, my brother's three years younger when, when we were kind of going through those things, he kept asking me all these questions, you know, because we were quite tight, you know, being three years apart in that area, you know, all the kids were a part of our community, and so I remember him, you know, crying and, you know, Where's daddy and what's going on, and I didn't know how to answer those types of things. Did you and your brother ever talk about what, what you guys were experiencing?

Bob Harriman  7:18  
Not really the five year spread between, you know, the older brother and younger brother who, you know, I'm the younger in this case, it was huge. So we didn't really kind of have those kind of conversations, because he was busy doing other things. He was very involved in sports and and I wasn't the communication inside the year. Older brotherhood wasn't

Bob Wilkie  7:40  
really there. Makes it interesting growing up and how we see the world. So you guys moved to Ottawa. You're going through high school in Ottawa. Same things are going on. I'm sure you're getting a little bit older. What are you starting to figure out as you start to become a young adult?

Bob Harriman  7:57  
Well, the world's an interesting place as you can imagine it. You know, you're as a young kid. You're doing your usual stupid young things kid that young kids all do. And I would say I was heading towards a world of darkness. Quite frankly, I was starting to hang around with the wrong gang, the wrong high school folks. And it was probably a pretty dark time where I could have gone down the wrong road very easily because I didn't have that the guidance that most kids can rely on or or at that time, early in Ottawa, I didn't have an organization that I could turn to. But an interesting thing happened, I got a job working for the Ottawa Boys and Girls Club summer camp as a as a counselor in training the first year, a counselor the second year, and then a part of the full time staff for the following year. And I have often said that that organization saved my life because I, as I said earlier, I was walking down from dark roads that I'm sure I would have not ended up in the RCMP, I probably would have ended up in jail. So it was important that I had a safe place to go, and I was lucky enough where I literally stumbled upon that place. And I've been part of the organization of Boys and Girls Club, now called BGC,

Bob Wilkie  9:25  
ever since. So cool how you found that community, because that's such a big part of being able to, like you say, get on that right track and the Boys and Girls Club, and we'll talk more about that as we go along here. But I'm really happy to hear that that that was kind of the thing that shifted you right? It was that positive, healthy community, those good relationships, little bit of responsibility given to you, some support, in some ways, helped change things a lot. You mentioned the RCMP, so now you're going through the Boys and Girls Club. You're kind of getting on that right track. How did you make the. Decision to join the RCMP.

Bob Harriman  10:02  
You know what? I can never really tell you, what did it there's not one thing. It's many things. I think probably my resilience and drive to do things better, and saying the right side of the right side of the law was one of the beginning points. I always wanted to get in some sort of public service, of social service, so to speak, it was either work towards policing or work towards paramedic. Sign of the house. So I was 19 years old. Actually, I was 18 years old when you can first apply. And I applied, and lucky for me, I made the cut and got in. So picture this a 19 year old kid heading off to training in Regina, trying to figure out life still here we are,

Bob Wilkie  10:51  
and the big journey begins, right? You're now, you're leaving everything that you know, and you're moving to Regina. At that time, I can't even imagine what Regina was like. What were some of the experiences that you were starting to have with this, this, this new tribe that you had chosen to be a part of?

Bob Harriman  11:07  
So I joined in 74 and 74 was a interesting time in policing and for the RCMP, females had been just accepted into the RCMP. So there's a major shift in some of the thinking in depot at the time in Regina, I would have to say it was challenging, and I'm being I'm thinking of a better word, but I'll say with that one for now, because the training was all about making you bigger, stronger, faster, taller and and do things according the way the RCB was sometimes. So, you know, the drill practice, you know, the classic drill sergeant yelling in your face was still there. The academics were piled on top of that, the self defense training was full on. There's one good thing I have to say about my big brother, who was probably 200 pounds of time. He was pretty big lad. Growing up as young boys, we often tangled, so one of the things I had as an advantage is I wasn't fair to the big guys at near St Peter, because I grew up having to hold my own around that group. So it, it was a it was quite a challenge. Worse yet, I went to depot as a non swimmer. And at that time, the swim instructors sort of the non swimmers by throwing them in the pool. You think you're non swimmer, where you're gonna ask to prove it. I had no problem proving that. So it was quite a quite an adventure.

Bob Wilkie  12:45  
And so now you go through that training, you go through those challenges, some of your past experiences, like you said, help you develop that resilience. You know, the value of community. What were some of the first jobs that you were given, and what did you start to see as an RC

Bob Harriman  13:01  
well, getting through training doesn't prepare you for the street. You know, they do a pretty good job preparing how to perform as a police officer, but they don't do a great job at that time help you understand all the things that were going to come after. So, you know, your first going to your first fatal accident was kind of hard thing to do because, you know, nobody can help train you for that. It's just the first thing you have to experience. And going your first domestic dispute, it's a dangerous situation. There's been a lot of police officers killed at domestic disputes. So those are things that the training can't prepare for you, and you have to have to think on your feet. You know, the basic training does help you stay safe as much as as possible, but you had to rely on your common sense. And unfortunately, I think that was probably my strength, is because I had to rely on my common sense as a kid.

Bob Wilkie  14:02  
Yeah, so much of those experiences that we have as young people, we don't realize the value that they bring later in life, right, running the streets of Montreal, you figure out how to do those types of things, and now all of a sudden, you're in it on your own again, right, a different stage in life. What were some of the you know, for me, when I, when I was going through some of the trauma, especially at a young age, on my own, didn't really know how to make sense of those things. So you're starting to see these domestic disputes. You know, you're on high alert a lot. What were some of the effects that you started to have at a young, a young age, because you're still quite young as you're doing this pop, the

Bob Harriman  14:37  
best way I can describe that, and it actually, I'm going to use this, this analogy or this description as something i i found in post when I retired. You're always on high alert. To use your words, Bob, you're you're waiting for that next call. You're not sure if the next call is going to be your last call, or you're waiting for the next thing that's going to come at you. You're working midnight shifts, you're on you're alone on the highway, you're alone in the country owned cars over so you know, you're always wondering what's going to come your way the stage that you're at. It's hard to turn it off when you come off shifts. Quite frankly, you're still looking at the world differently than most people do, because he's seeing the world, quite frankly, quite differently than most people see every day. So the state of alertness really doesn't go away when you're when you're off duty.

Bob Wilkie  15:33  
You know, I think where a lot of people struggle is they get into that where whatever's happened in their life, you know, you're talking about policing and having to go all the do all these dangerous things on a daily basis, but for regular people, it's it's not much different, right? Everything can seem to be a threat when you start to have those experiences. And so you're a young man now, and you meet Janine. At what point did you meet Janine and the relationship started? And what? How is that? You know when you're having to leave and now you've got someone at home that you care about. What were some of the experiences you started to have with that?

Bob Harriman  16:08  
So the my first posting, straight out of training, was to Humboldt Saskatchewan. So the kid from Montreal ended up in Saskatchewan. I didn't even know how to spell Saskatchewan, so it was definitely a posting that somewhere I wasn't very familiar with. So meeting Janine, I met her in our in Humboldt, and we were married two years later. At that time, I had applied and got on the Musical Ride. So I had spent, at that point, two months in training and then done a year on the ride, so six months on the road. So we're the young couple that were kind of figuring out how to survive, even though we weren't together every day. So the good news about the Musical Ride, I was out of the policing boat for a couple years, and it allows them growing up and some world experiences. We were lucky enough to on the ride to travel to Europe and all through North America. So it taught you how to interact with people, and taught you lots of things about, you know, how people are in different parts of the world. So I came out of that probably a smarter, more worldly person. But you know, we had to make it work. Because, for, you know, as I said earlier, a lot of times it worked together. But here we are, some 47 years later, we made it work in spite of you, as a bell, it

Bob Wilkie  17:34  
if you could make it through those three years? Yeah, yeah. It's such a cool story. Because, you know, taking that little break and getting to travel the world and do those things that must have been really exciting for you a whole different perspective, I'm sure.

Bob Harriman  17:48  
Yeah, you know, when you talk about being proud Mountie, I mean, that's that took it to a whole new level, because now you're, you're representing Canada, and lots of people look at the Musical Ride the Mountie in red surge as the Canadian icon. We we went to Ireland as our as a for first showing the arson. He had never been to Ireland, so the Irish folks didn't know much about our other movies and fairytale books. So I went from the stable boy being yelled at by the riding master shoveling out horse ship to coming off the plane and getting escorted and having the Irish police to set up barricades so people could line up and have her get her autograph. Well, that was a bit of a change from stable boy to autograph.

Bob Wilkie  18:37  
I didn't know that you actually signed autographed at one time in your career.

Bob Harriman  18:40  
Button, yeah. Well, there you go, yeah. I don't think anybody still has them, no.

Bob Wilkie  18:46  
And then you're out, you're out of the Musical Ride, and what happens then you're back into the policing in the Highland,

Bob Harriman  18:52  
back back to policing, and went to Red Deer. Red Deer was a growing city. It was a city that had, you know, big city problems had a motorcycle gang clubhouse in the city. So policing got real and probably more intense, and rural policing did at that time. So lots of calls where you would, you know, you you'd see the other side of humanity

Bob Wilkie  19:20  
at that point, you know, you're still 70s, early 80s,

Bob Harriman  19:26  
77 Yeah, yep. So you know, into my 2022 23

Bob Wilkie  19:33  
you're going and seeing all these things. You're seeing kind of that underbelly, like you talked about of humanity as a group, right the RCS, and you're seeing these things you guys talking about it, is it like, how are you getting through that? Because day after day that that's got to start to take a toll.

Bob Harriman  19:51  
Yeah, that's that was probably something even right back to training days, when I talk about training and picking up. The necessary tools to do policing that was missing. Mental health wasn't something that was talked about. You know, I'll take you back into talking about my mom and the growing up. Mental health then was almost a taboo subject in the rsmp mental health was Listen, go in, get it done, go home, have a sleep, come back to shift the next day and get it done again. That was the mental health aspect, or the mental attitude at that time, and it wasn't necessarily a very healthy one, as you can imagine. It was hard. Oh, anytime you'd ever talk about it. You might go for some beers with a buddy, and, you know, chat about it. And we'll always be a, you know, fellow worker or somebody, because, you know, as an organization, as a group, you know, we had lots of civilian friends, but that's not something we kind of share with civilians. If I can use that term, it's, yeah, you had to puff it out.

Bob Wilkie  21:01  
You know, being a husband too, and you kind of got these things going on. Did it create any challenges at home for the both of you? I'm sure some of the stuff you saw and experienced caused you to shut down a little bit.

Bob Harriman  21:15  
Definitely, the shutdown is a good word to use Bob, because I wouldn't bring home the things from the street, and share them with Janine at that time, and even if we fast forward from that point to when we had kids hockey billets like you, those are not topics or conversations we had around the dinner table. It wasn't about, you know what happened in leasing today, it was more about what happened with, you know, the kids and and each other. So you tended to just find a pocket to put it in and store it away. But I can tell you that that's not healthy, and I can give you some examples as we get through some of this, of that how unhealthy that was.

Bob Wilkie  22:05  
Yeah, it's so important. And we're just gonna take a short commercial break here. Just want to talk about, you know, how this all started, and show everybody here. You know what the purpose of this is. It all stems from this documentary sideways. And, you know, sideways is something that as we're showing it to communities, really is having a positive impact on people. I think it's helping them realize, hopefully, you know, like some of Bob's story and everything we do here at tear off the tape, and I just wanted to share the trailer, because if you're listening to this and you want to learn more, and you want to have some more insights how you can overcome or deal with some of the challenges that life throws at us. This is a great way to start it. What we're seeing is people are opening up. They're talking about it more. It just it shows that it's okay to do that. So enjoy this trailer about sideways. We're looking good everywhere. Defense seem to be more mobile, and they play their positions a little bit better.

Speaker 1  22:59  
We realize we had something special here, like Sheldon, Kennedy, Joe Saki, Danny Lambert, the list went on and on.

Speaker 2  23:05  
Hockey is everything in small town, I think everyone in our area knew that we had something special.

Matt Cundill  23:16  
RCMP, what's your emergency junior hockey team turned into a tragedy this afternoon when the team bus slid off an icy road near Swift Current Saskatchewan, four of the young hockey players were killed. We're both

Bob Wilkie  23:27  
shaking and absolutely terrified, and just kept yelling, get off the bus. Somebody's under the bus.

Speaker 3  23:32  
And we stayed with them for a bit, and I remember at that point seeing, Oh my God, what's happened here?

Bob Wilkie  23:39  
People didn't understand trauma. They didn't know what happened to people, what happened to their brains. That was a lot of years of nightmares and regret, for sure,

Speaker 4  23:47  
the head of the team, Graham James, says, No, we don't need counseling. You know, in hindsight, that was a mistake, because he was hiding the big secret.

Bob Wilkie  23:55  
And finally, my name is called, you know, it was supposed to be the greatest day of my life, and it was one of the most painful.

Speaker 5  24:01  
There was so little knowledge about mental health. We didn't do enough. We didn't know enough.

Speaker 6  24:08  
I became so interested about Bob and his life and what he's gone through, because he has

Speaker 2  24:15  
an important story to tell.

Speaker 5  24:20  
It's attracted quite a crowd. Bob Wilkes story is a story of what could have been, what should have been. He was at the lowest of lows. He wasn't sure if he wanted to live today. He's turning the tragedy into something positive

Bob Wilkie  24:42  
when you do tear off that tape, everything can change for you. And

Matt Cundill  24:57  
now more with Bob Wilkie and. Tear off the tape.

Bob Wilkie  25:03  
It's been an interesting ride, for sure, you know, sharing this story and helping people understand, you know, trauma and what goes on. And Bob, this is part of both of our stories. So we end up in Swift Current together. You guys decide that you're going to take a hockey billet and see how that goes for a little while. We come to that day, December 30, 1986 that was a hard day for both of us. And I share my story, but I'm really curious, because we've never really talked about your side of the story. So take us through a little bit. December 30, 1986 How did it begin for you?

Bob Harriman  25:38  
Well, remember I talked about the calls that you wait for, and you're, you know, waiting for the next call, you never know what it's going to be. So here's another call to another fatal accident. On the way out, I hear the Bronco Basa that's involved the accident that there's fatalities involved. It's interesting. You came to our house as a young, 1516, year old brat, looking to make your world in the hockey world. So it was, it was interesting. New thing for us. Janine wanted a billet. I wanted nothing to do with the billet. But guess what? Janine wins. Her wife always has the does the right things and and here we are, 40 years later, talking about it that I say that because you were almost like part of the family. And I, I'll even go further and say you were part of the family, because we actually still have family pictures with you in a picture. So that's, that's how close billets get. And hearing that it was a broken bus accident with at least four fatalities hit me pretty hard, because I knew you were on the bus. So by the time I got there, the the four, four lads were, you know, out of off the bus, and some had been thrown and there were some blankets over all four of them. So I can tell you, the first thing I did is I went and looked to see who was under each blanket, because my biggest fear was going to be, you got past that because you weren't there and you weren't at the scene. A lot of injured folks were picked up by local people and taken to law school, and so you were nowhere to be seen. I actually transported, if I recall correctly. Graham James and Sheldon Kennedy and one other player. I can't remember who it was, to the hospital. So into the hospital real quick. It was a quick turnaround, then back out to deal with the scene of the bus crash. I've been to 104 fatal accidents over my career. So this is just one of the 104 fatal accidents which are all the same. They're all tragic, they're all horrific, they're all heartbreaking, and they never get any easier. Some I don't recall, but even all this time later, I can still recall walking through the front window of the bus. The bus was on site, and I could hear the crunching of the glass under my boots. If I close my eyes today, I could actually still hear that sound going through the bus, looking for anything that I could help with, and also preparing to do my work at the crime scene, or not the crime scene, but at the crash, it was hard, because in this case, it was a bit personal, and the barnacle bus crash was a big impact for The community. And so that one in particular stands out, but it is not any different than everyone that had been at they're all horrific. There's always families involved of the victims. It just doesn't get any easier. So it's it's actually hard, even now. You know, chatting about this as if it was just another call. Well, it wasn't another call. It was, it was, it was a game changer. So when you say we haven't talked about this in the past, that's maybe not true. We talked a lot about it around the kitchen table when you're out of the hospital and around but I don't think you've ever saw me tear off the tape, so this is probably the first time you've seen me say, Okay, here's what I was doing, because this is all about tearing off the tape. And I learned. And very late in my career, that it's important to tear that tape off and have a conversation. And I think the monitor police, as well as an organization, learned that you need to have debriefs after a traumatic incident. You need to say it's okay to not be well, mentally, that's a new generation. That certainly wasn't the case in the 70s. And you were, you were part of that culture as well. We don't need counseling. We're just going to get back in the ice and go win a memorial cup. So that's that's quite a game changer.

Bob Wilkie  30:41  
You know, what I was going through? So happy that we get to have this conversation, because I'm understanding what you were going through. You know, you were such a support for me. You were trying to I'll never forget when you told me about survivor's guilt, because I was really struggling with that. You know, why did I survive? Why didn't they? And I think a lot of people, when they go through a traumatic incident, they don't know how to support that other person. You saw things in me. You saw me going to that darkness, but it was something Bob that you kind of knew too. Was it not?

Bob Harriman  31:10  
I would say yes, because I had to live it a lot. I had to, as I say, figure out how to put it in that pocket and tuck it away without ever carrying the tape box. So it took some I don't mind saying to you that I did crash and burn a couple of times through my career. I'm sure every mount who was being honest, every police officer was being honest, will tell you they crashed the burn more than once, and that was the case for me. Where did I call in sick? No, but did I go to work sick? Yep, I wasn't physically sick. I wasn't in any shape to take on any more stress or trauma.

Bob Wilkie  31:56  
And you know, for me, I developed just the coping mechanism of numbing myself to it not something I ever saw from you. Bob, what were some of the things that you developed, as far as coping mechanisms to Yeah, when you were that wounded and full and just knew that you couldn't take on anymore, what were some outlets that you chose?

Bob Harriman  32:17  
Number one is, I gotta take you back to my upbringing. You know, where I had as a kid learn to be resilient that really helped me. You know, poor mom is as the difficulties that she had ultimately taught me to be resilient. Sounds ironic, but that's exactly what happened. You know, mom could help me, so I had to figure out how to help myself. So that's that was probably one of the main things that I had going in my favor, is that I carried that resilience through my career. But, you know, the cash from burns? Yeah, I I'd find that, you know, let's go have a few drinks and maybe that'll go away. Of course, that makes it worse. That doesn't help. Some of the things that helped me a bit was physical exercise. I'd stayed slow and turned probably because I was trying to stay alive and burn off the dark side of the house without burning down the whole house. The other thing is, I did have a sport back because Janine was an amazing lady that was always there for the thick and thin and at times they even when I took it out on her and her family, as far as being that moody guy, that's, you know, what's going on here? Well, what's going on is things were piling up inside, and I had to figure out how to sort it out so that that's how that went.

Bob Wilkie  33:44  
104 fatalities, you know, working with first responders in different ways, when we went to Humboldt and we talked with all the people in Nipawin who were there for that bus accident. You know, you going through ours and the 102 other ones that you were a part of. What process did you develop? How did you prepare yourself for what you could potentially see? Because the thing I've learned in my journey of becoming resilient is when we get news, when something happens, I've developed a process to prepare myself, mentally and emotionally for what I could be stepping into, what were some of the skills that you developed, Bob, that were going to help you not have necessarily, the effect that maybe it had had in previous events?

Bob Harriman  34:32  
That's an interesting question. Bob, I think one of the main coping mechanisms that I used was I had a job to do, so I focused on that, and it wasn't missed. 104 fatal accidents I went to was, you know, 1000s and 1000s of break and enters people's homes being, you know, trashed and all of the things, the suicide scenes, the murder. Scenes. You know, it just goes on and on. And I'm no different than any other police officer. Anybody who goes through their career is going to have to work through that. I think one of the thing I've heard most often, and I've used most often, is, got a job to do. We've got to do it. Let's go find who perpetrated this crime. For the sake of the victims, let's go find out whose fault it was when it comes to a fatal accident, because quite often, the victims weren't the fault of the accident. It was created by a drug driver, or, you know, dangerous driver, those kinds of things. So focusing on getting our job done and bringing to justice as best as possible, the people responsible helped a lot, because that was my job. So doing your job was the best way I could prepare it and cope with it, because I was driven by the fact that I was, I spent eight years as a crime scene examiner, and so fingerprints, physical ends, what have you, I was driven at every crime scene to find that fingerprint that would identify the person that did this crime, and I wasn't leaving until I found a fingerprint or a piece of physical evidence. So that was a that was a big thing for me. Did it help mentally? It helped me prepare and get the job done? Did the resilience help me put it in that pocket? I keep talking about, yes, but every once a while, that pocket would get pretty full. So when you talk about tearing off the tape, every once a while, I'd have to sit down and have a chat about it, because you can't store it all the time and keep surviving that way. If you never ever talk about it, you're going to crash and burn and you're going to be in real trouble. And I think there's a recognition of that now, because you look at in the policing circles, mental health is a big thing, and there's a lot of police officers that are off to be sick because of mental health issues, because what they have to go through. So that's, that's the new thing, that is a good thing, that helps people recover, because you have to that. You say, tear off the tape and talk about it and seek, seek the right counseling and get the right support.

Bob Wilkie  37:27  
It's such a process. Bob, right, yeah, don't

Bob Harriman  37:30  
try and do it on your own, because I think you tried. How'd that work out for you?

Bob Wilkie  37:36  
Yeah, no, it just about ended terribly. And, I mean, that's the whole purpose of what we're doing here, right? Is to be able to share our stories and and this is going to be so good for people in policing and EMS that have to deal with it on a daily basis, because I know that there's a lot of people out there when we, like I said, when we were up in nipple, and you could see it in the people and having these conversations, and the spouses, I think were a big part of it, right? This isn't necessarily just for people who experience a lot of trauma. Sometimes it's to help people understand what maybe their loved one is going through, and be able to support them. I'm happy to hear that Janine, was that that soundboard, that that person that could help you through those different things, because we do tend to shove it in that pocket, like you said, Bob, and eventually that pocket is going to be full, and we're going to have to do something to empty it out, right? That's, that's why we call it tear off the tape. Is because we keep taping up all these different issues that we have and and before you know it, you're a mummy, and you can't, you can't move, right? And it's really being able to identify that that's going on. So here you are now. You just had your 70th birthday. You look fantastic. You've had a life filled with all of this trauma and these different experiences. Is there anything now that you find really helpful, Bob, because the trauma never goes away, right? I like to call it like mental scar. You know, I have scars physically all over me, and I can go back to those times of what happened and when those mental scars, a lot of times, people don't realize that they can kind of be torn open again with without really realizing it. Right? The word of the day is called triggered. People are using triggered all the time. Is there anything that you've done to help you identify different triggers, or if something happens today, that kind of takes you back to any of those things. Is there anything that you've developed or learned over the years that can maybe help somebody out there if they're triggered by something?

Bob Harriman  39:34  
Well, triggers are real, and they they don't go away, even post retirements are they're always there. You know, you the night sweat does still happen. The bad dream about the crime scene still happens. And the worst thing about in the dreaming world is it often gets worse than it really was. So it really, really can haunt you. One of the things that i i. I've learned to be comfortable with, and that's probably not the right word be okay with, is that when a trigger happens, and I'll use the Bronco bus accidents from swicker, can you imagine? I can remember the sound of the glass under my boots walking for the broken winter of that bus. That's just one example of how that whole scene is inside my head. I've learned to be okay with it. I've learned to recognize that I got through it, did my job, I survived, and here I am today so I recognize that it happened. I can talk about it without trying to be that Macho. I got this. I don't need to talk about it. I'm okay to talk about it. That's why the podcast is happening today, because I'm okay to answer whatever question you have about the traumas that I went through, because that's been my coping mechanism for a long time, and that's my survival conversation. For people who were there, recognize you've had it, you've made it through, and get some help along the way and be okay with it. A lot of times it's,

Bob Wilkie  41:26  
you know, it's seeing a movie, right? And we remember certain things, and specifically we remember those certain things. And like you can remember the glass crunching under your boot, I can remember the feeling of cold and the blood trickling down my face and the pain in my hip, you know, but it doesn't have that effect anymore, because I've done some things that have helped. First, talking about it, you know, is so helpful. Over the last several years, there's so many more new modalities that have come out. A R T has been really helpful for me. Equine therapy is another thing that that I do. Brain balancing through sound, is another thing that I found. So what's happened for me is I continue to heal these so that I don't have those triggers, is that now it's just a scar and it doesn't get reopened, it doesn't get right. It's just part of the story, part of my life experience. And I think that that's been really helpful for me is that I continue to do the work, because the minute I don't, it is amazing how quickly we can end up back in that spot, isn't it?

Bob Harriman  42:27  
Bob, you can do one of two things when you're triggered or you have a recall of a really horrible thing that happened to anyone in your life, and you can do one of two things, you can sit down and hide under a blanket, or you can get off the couch and go do something and make it better. I've been lucky never to have to hide under the blanket. I can't say I never did, but I've learned not to, and I think that was probably the big takeaway that I have, you know, watching you as a young kid, you, you still had that bike, and that was the wrong direction. You, you know, look at you now you realize that, and you've torn the tape off and but yeah, I agree there, there's those metal scars and heart going away, and you just have to be okay with it, you know, let you can make you can't say it's gone. You recognize it's there, and you have to be okay with it, and use your skills to get to be okay with it.

Bob Wilkie  43:34  
It just becomes part of our story, and we have to be okay with our story. You know, not every story is is always happy, right? That's not life. Life is not life is not like that. Sometimes it's not fair. We did an interview with Dr Bruce Perry, and he says, you know, that's where a lot of people really get stuck in their trauma, is that they just continue to think that it's not fair. And, you know, I don't know where we get this conception that life is always fair, or that it should be fair, that it's kind of an unrealistic expectation to have, Bob, don't you think that life is going to be fair?

Bob Harriman  44:06  
I'm kind of smiling, because if I had to take you on one shift of police work, you'd find out how unfair life or lead is for a lot of people. You know, when you go to these calls and little kids haven't got a hope of seeing supper on the table. You go to a domestic dispute, and you see on fair life and be for you know, two people that should be in love with each other, you know, on and on. Yeah, no, life isn't fair, and thinking it's not fair, personally, that's when you're that's when you're sitting on the couch and hiding under the blanket. Makes it

Bob Wilkie  44:39  
that much more difficult some of the I think one of the most important things that really helped me, one of my teachers, is back in 2008 I started practicing the attitude of gratitude despite what was going on, being able to shift my mindset and really think about the things that I'm grateful for, you know, my family, the relationships that I have. You know, the opportunities to grow and to learn. You know, there's so many different things that we can be grateful for, and it's such a valuable practice. Has that been something that helped you get through over the years? Was knowing that you were going home to this beautiful little family,

Bob Harriman  45:14  
the glass is half full or half empty. I like to think it's half full most of the time, and they have to work out. I mean, that's I'm not saying it's easy. You have to take the attitude every day and say, Okay, where's the silver lining in this and this mess? There's got to be some good to come through. And a good example I said earlier, you know, you look at my My poor mom, who is totally debilitated, taught me resilience. There's a silver lining. That's how you have to look at life in general, in spite of how bad things are. Find that silver lining and focus on it and help get off the couch and get going.

Bob Wilkie  45:53  
You've mentioned several times in our chat here today how you found groups, how you found community, how you found family, how service was something that was important to you at a very pivotal point in your life when you could have went this way, but it was the service and helping others that really helped you make some better decisions. I think it's a big part of who we are. We always want to help other people, but we can be quite slow in realizing that maybe we need to help ourselves first. How important was it for you to start helping yourself?

Bob Harriman  46:24  
Bob? You have to do it every day. Actually, I get a backup on that. You have to learn to do that every day. I can't say I was gonna at the beginning, because I used to be the one that put it in the pocket. And it's all okay, I don't need to worry about that. When that pocket was full, as he said, Bob, it's it's time to figure how to be okay again. And it comes in. You don't see it coming. It just comes up the strangest time, and could be in the middle of night or the middle of day. You just don't see when that pockets gonna overflow and be harmful to you and even the ones around you. So it's it's important to always be aware that sometimes you might have to spring into action and say, Okay, I gotta look after me.

Bob Wilkie  47:14  
It's one thing that I've kind of implemented in my life. I am the most important person, and if I'm going to be good for everybody that I want to be good for, then I've got to be good for me.

Bob Harriman  47:26  
I had a I had a crash, personally, when my daughter, Susie, she she was in medicine, and she was working away, you know, doing her trauma work, and she said to me, you know, Dad, it's okay not always to be the fourth leg in the stool, because, remember, the stool can stand up on three legs every now and then and still be okay. It was analogy She used that really stuck with me. I didn't have to be that strong a pillar all the time. I could take the day off or the week off and be okay, let somebody else hold the world up. That's a great analogy. And I've, I've really, you know, that one's never left me, and it's true, you got to be able to let go and let somebody else help hold things up.

Bob Wilkie  48:16  
I think it's so cool. You know, people, we always do that generally when we're meeting, you know, Hey, how's it going? And it's just kind of that casual thing that we throw out there. But I found is really important to share exactly how I am feeling. So if I'm feeling really good today, people say, How you feeling? It's like, oh, I'm awesome today. It's great. But then all of a sudden they'll ask me that same question, how are you today? And I'm like, Yeah, struggling a bit today. And it always catches their attention when I'm honest and open with how I am feeling, it's like, yeah, I don't have much capacity today. You know, I just, I got some things going on. It's a little bit harder for me letting people know where you're at. Bob is so important sometimes too, because we don't have to be that fourth leg of the stool

Bob Harriman  48:56  
sharing your feelings. You know, in my early days, that was not cool. Sharing your feelings in my early career, that wasn't cool. That was all wrong. I'm sharing their feelings important, and that's that's your core survival tactic that you need to start using, because you have to be able to start somewhere, and that's the place to start, is you tear off the tape and share your feelings.

Bob Wilkie  49:24  
Uncomfortable for a lot of people, because they've never done it, and I talked at the beginning, you know, the whole purpose of this is to show the vulnerability. And Bob, you've you've shown it a great example today of what it's like to be vulnerable. It's scary. You're never quite sure how things are going to be interpreted, but knowing that you did that and were honest, you don't have to carry that around anymore. And I found that to be one of the most healing things that I could do is just be open and honest with where I'm at.

Bob Harriman  49:53  
Being vulnerable shouldn't be a bad word. Shouldn't be a bad term. It's okay to be vulnerable. And it's okay to talk about it, because that's life. The folks that think they're too tough and too strong to say, I don't need this, they're probably the most vulnerable people around. It's okay to talk about it.

Bob Wilkie  50:14  
I want to touch on the work that you do with the Boys and Girls Club, because I think it's really important. You know, it's something that impacted you at a very early age, helped you get on the right path to live the wonderful life that you've lived, and to see and do all the things that you've done. Why are you so passionate about giving back and what are some things that people can do to support that wonderful organization?

Bob Harriman  50:36  
Well, I am clearly a big fan, as a matter of fact, I'm on the National Board of the formerly BG, it's BGC. Now it's farming Boys and Girls Club. So being on the BGC board is national board is, is a wonderful opportunity for me. I was on other boards, this one, this this group is all about helping young people be stronger, giving them a safe place to go. And there's lots of kids in the world today that don't have a safe place to go, and that even includes home. So BGC is is a great organization that gives kids a safe place to go, and when they're there, it's a great program and great people that help kids be stronger. And that's the biggest thing that it's teaching kids resilience. And we talked about that a lot today, that's that's an organization that actually gets it and helps kids get there without all the trials and troubles along the way. Most of the kids that have been through the BGC program end up being great humans and gone to do amazing things. You look at the alumni, there's some amazing people that have gone through the BGC program, and it's, you know, all through North America. So I that's why I'm a big fan, because helping kids at an early age is a key to making good adults, because if you don't do it, you can't. It's harder to do. I can't say you can't, but much harder to do at the adult

Bob Wilkie  52:12  
Bob, I can't thank you enough for being here today. It's been a wonderful journey. I've learned some more things about you. I look forward to when we get together next chatting about more of them. It's been a wonderful story, and I think it's really going to help a lot of people. So thank you very much for being here today.

Bob Harriman  52:28  
Well, the good news is my golf games improved. I've gotten golf lessons not from a good golf pro, not someone like you, so we may have a good golf run next time. So looking forward to Bob and happy to done this with you. So thank you.

Bob Wilkie  52:44  
Thanks everybody for listening. Really thankful for you to be here today. I hope that you learned a lot through the storytelling that we shared today. You know the important factors community Bob touched on, there's always turning points, and we want to make sure that we're looking for these turning points and being able to reach out and support each other. So thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you on our next episode.

Matt Cundill  53:05  
You've been listening to tear off the tape for more about this show and how you can continue the dialog about trauma. Go to I got mind.ca. A production of the sound off media company the.