Phil Jewell: How Experience Impacts Leadership

Emily Rodger  0:00  
Hi, I'm Emily Rodger hosted the boiling point podcast, my co host Dave Veale and I will bring you thoughtful discussions with leaders who are positively impacting our world. This is the boiling point where leadership and inspiration meet. Oh, right, here we are back for another episode. One of my favorite days, every couple of weeks when we get to record an episode for one I get to catch up with you, although we get to chat quite frequently, which is amazing. So how are you? What's what's,

Dave Veale  0:35  
I'm good, I'm good. I was thinking about turning it back to you and asking you about what it's like emceeing an event people that would have listened to Rachel's episode and Rachel's last name is escaping me right now for

Emily Rodger  0:48  
Rachel Bandra veteran,

Dave Veale  0:51  
she's got such a presence. And I just really appreciate, and she does work with large. And we promoted that event. And it was a sold out event, not not necessarily because of us because it's such a popular event. But you emceed it, and I thought you did a fabulous job, very comfortable up there, I don't know if you fell comfortably, sure, look comfortable. And I love how you brought some of the large community in and support them and their, their bits and pieces, and the whole event was really well done. But what was it like for you,

Emily Rodger  1:22  
I loved everything about it. And I was incredibly comfortable. And you know, just this thing around, like what large even stands for and about community. And for me, it's like for getting up and whether it's like public speaking or emceeing event where I mean cash, there was over 400 people, and ultimately, it's all about community. And it's all about all of us doing our part and showing up just fully SBR. And in having the other a couple of the community members join me up on stage to present and Stefan who helps with some of the emceeing like it was just such a beautiful evening and heartfelt and I had so much fun and it was just really wonderful to be up there and see how engaged everybody was. And how we can all kind of come together for these deal with similar similar causes similar just to like care and compassion and love for one another. And I already look forward to it for next year's events. at MC MC next year,

Dave Veale  2:34  
your story connects so well with being there, you know, with your sister and your family. And unbeknownst to me, you are very good auctioneer. So there was an artist for listeners that was like painting live, like while the event was going on. And she presented the painting of this beautiful painting. And you said oh, let's auction this off. I've never done this before. And it started a little slow. You started at 500. And it was but then it picked up steam. And then went later that I expected like I had to get back at a pickup of some one of the kids. So as I was walking out, I heard you like Okay, so are we got 1700 bucks. I think it was at that point. I was like, Wow, well done.

Emily Rodger  3:15  
It went away over 3000

Dave Veale  3:17  
Oh, see, there you go. Or maybe it was up higher? Yeah, I was just like, but it was it was good. You didn't You didn't quit. And people actually started Did you call me out? I was worried about that.

Emily Rodger  3:31  
And I kind of nominated people to auction like that, like, yeah, the total opposite of probably how any auctioneer does thing? I'm like, Oh, do you want that?

Dave Veale  3:46  
It works. And it worked. There was a psychological element to it. So

Emily Rodger  3:50  
a one point I thought, worse comes to worse, I'm gonna be the one paying for what the number that I'm putting in these people's mouths, or what this teaching is gonna go for. I'll just split the difference.

Dave Veale  4:05  
It was awesome. So well done. And good. auctioneering. And, and today, I'm going to let you bring our guests in. But it's neat, because we often invite people back. Well, not often. You know, there's there's times when the conversation is not over. And our guests is two years ago, we just figured out what was on. And I'll let you kind of thread this together. But there's a really interesting reason to bring guests back on for a whole bunch of reasons, but maybe something that connects with our preliminary conversation. Yeah,

Emily Rodger  4:35  
absolutely. Phil, come on in. Welcome back to the boiling point. So initially, gosh, which is crazy. It was two years ago, but at the end of the podcast, we were like we have to do this again. And Phil and I were having a conversation about a month ago and we were talking about a book that he is writing and it reminded me of the well and Phil I'll have you tell this story, actually because it would have been from your perspective.

Phil Jewel  5:04  
Yeah. Thanks so many thanks, folks. Hey, Dave. Great to be here again. Yeah. So almost two years ago, I, you know, I was fortunate enough to be here on this podcast. And I think one of the departing questions from yourself, Dave was like, where's your book then? Or when's your book coming out? And the end? And I goes, Oh, yeah, whatever, you know, like, kind of, I don't know, if I said that out loud. But I kind of thought that, you know, and really, then since then, it's been kind of a two year journey into all around belief, belief in myself, and belief in my stories, and, you know, really understanding that we all have unique stories, and all of our stories can impact somebody somewhere. And, you know, there's that saying that we all have a book inside of ourselves. So you asked me that question. And, you know, it's sat there, and I didn't really do anything with it. And then, you know, as I my career progressed, my business progressed, I heard, you know, I found myself doing more keynote speaking, do more collegiate workshops, and, you know, two or three times, you know, in the six months following people come up to you, where's your book? Like, why is another book, and it was, you know, the third or fourth time somebody said that to me, I said, Okay, feel like you've got to, you've got to start taking this seriously. And like many things, it wasn't about how to write a book, it was about really believing in my stories, and believing that my stories were worth telling. And, you know, what, the reason I was able to unpack that they were was, you know, through kind of the power of coach and if you like, and, yeah, it's ironic that mostly it comes down to that self belief.

Emily Rodger  6:31  
And so now there is almost a pumpkin.

Dave Veale  6:34  
Yeah. Okay. I love the topic. This is such a juicy topic, creative a belief in yourself. And it's funny how we can hear someone else's story and see the brilliance in it. But when we turn that mirror to ourselves, it's because it's our story. We're so used to it. I don't know, what do you make of that? Like, what is it about our stories that make it harder to tell?

Speaker 1  6:57  
I think that they fit like, yeah, that our stories, so we're so used to them. So we don't think they they're, they're worth telling their unique whatever everyone has these sort of stories, I think that's got to populate it. And then at this thing is the I think it just comes down imposter syndrome. I mean, it sounds so simple, but who might have variable who might share my story. And it's interesting, I was talking to somebody the other day, you know, and they said, You think I'm too confident? And I said, No, not at all. I said, I think you're confident I said, but I do not think there's any such thing in this world has been too confident, I think, yes, of course, there's risks. We've been overconfident. But there's far more risks, we've been under confident. And when you look at all this, you know, a lot of things that go on, and especially in workplaces and some of the poor leadership, a lot of that comes down to lack of confidence. So, you know, I mean, I've gotten a little bit of tangent, but I think most things come down to confidence. And if we have it, we need to borrow it, open the mason jar, and just keep it because the world and society will, will beat that confidence out of us. So we should never think we're too confident. What

Dave Veale  7:53  
in particular, you think kind of beats that confidence out of us. In

Speaker 1  7:58  
an adult in today's world, you know, the constant, you know, it's just so easy to be judged, or to feel like we're being judged. You know, obviously, we have a society, which has kind of promoted this perfectionism type mindset, which just simply doesn't exist. You know, I don't believe there's any such thing as someone asked me, Who do you emulate for your leadership? Phil? It was quite an interesting question I've never been asked to before but I answered very quickly. I was like, you know, I don't emulate anybody. I don't, I don't believe we should emulate anybody. I think we should create our own blueprint, because there's so many opinions and thoughts about who we should be, and how we should show up and how we should do it. And we try, we adapt, change shape mold, who we are to try to avoid failure to try to avoid people criticizing us. And they still do anyway. So, you know, yeah,

Emily Rodger  8:47  
at least for just giving them the truth to criticize on. What kept you going through it?

Speaker 1  8:55  
A lot of it for me was unpacking my own stories and experiences that I hadn't unpacked. And so, you know, I'll be very clear, I'm writing the book for myself. First and foremost, this has been a book written for myself, I'm not writing this book to, you know, of course, I'd love to, you know, for it to make an impact and you know, for people to buy it, but like, my absolute goal is to for myself to understand my experiences more understand the impact they've had on me and how they've shaped who I am. And so that has been an absolute blessing. But it's also been a struggle because it's taken me down experiences and paths that I've avoided to go down, you know, and force me to ask questions that I haven't asked and, you know, so there'll be moments I would sit in a coffee shop and three hours laid out and wrote pages because I thought I was gonna write 500 words if I could pick one my kids open ended up just sitting there for hours writing pages and pages because it opened up so many things I hadn't, you know, kind of addressed before. So I think just knowing why I'm writing the book has been what's kept me going and it because number two is for my kids. That's it. Like, if I just hit number one or two, it's for myself and then from My kids, that's that's all that matters, you know. And I think, you know, the later the books gone on, or as I'm getting to the end, and that final push the end, it's definitely number two, which has helped me a lot. You know, my kids are 10 and 12. Now, they're at the age where they want to know, some of my experiences, you know, I mean, I don't know if listeners know, I was in the army and, you know, served overseas in combat and was a leader at young age and had a lot of failures and a lot of experiences. And they they inquisitive about them now, and I don't do a very good job at maybe verbalizing them that with them, I don't know what to share what context to share it in. And sometimes you just can't to a kid. So you know, it's part of it is just making sure those sort of stories or the lessons more than lessons and the message of learner are there for them, and hey, they can do what they want them. I'm not saying they have to learn, you know, they, they might not follow those messages, but that's okay.

Dave Veale  10:49  
I think this is a really nice teaser, because like for listeners that didn't listen to the first podcast, maybe we should go back to like your story, Phil, because I imagine I'm just I suppose when I'm sitting I imagine me being the listener. I'm like, okay, like, well, what's the story? What is it about? Because it's quite brilliant. Maybe you can give, you know, just kind of bookend it for us a bit.

Speaker 1  11:13  
Yeah. So I guess my professional career up till a number years ago was in the army, I was in British Army, Canadian Army and actually served the US Army. So I served three armies, but a lot of my formative years and experiences with with the British Army, and has served overseas in Afghanistan, I served with the Gurkha and Nepalese soldiers, and also alongside the Afghan army. So I serve, you know, cultures, countries, in really different continents. And, you know, everything I share is really the lens of failure. I mean, I failed at a catastrophic levels, leading soldiers in combat, and I failed in more routine levels. And so really, those are the lessons that have shaped me. And then I went to work for the public service for five, six years. And you know, ultimately, I call it the COVID mirror, you look in the mirror and COVID about and you ask a lot of deep reflective questions, and I wasn't living my life a purpose, or how I viewed it. And my life purpose was really to give back to, you know, to try to put the lessons that I'd been, I've learned through leadership into better use, and hence, I started my own kind of boutique, leadership development, coaching business. But I always like to emphasize, I've never defined myself by the military, that's not who I am. And I always like to, you know, to remind folks that I probably learned more about leadership working in McDonald's for two years, at 16 years old, working on a farm or 14, watching my amazingly, incredibly strong daughter, manage her own disability, as she's coming into preteen years, you know, watching my wife and how she leaves with empathy every single day, no matter what's going on, you know, so all those sorts of things kind of really drive and inspire me to, for me, you know, to help others become better leaders, because often I don't necessarily blame the leaders, I blame the lack of training and opportunities, they've had to actually become a good leader.

Dave Veale  12:59  
It's funny how you say the military doesn't define you. But like, it's unique to you. And many of us haven't had, you know, I haven't had personally military experience, you know, when you talk about failing on catastrophic levels, and kind of more mundane levels. So the process of going through those stories and writing, I'm assuming about the failures, good times, or bad times, all those sorts of things. Sounds very therapeutic. And it actually sounds a little scary, to be honest. I'm thinking to myself going like it takes courage, I guess, is what I'm thinking. Yeah.

Speaker 1  13:31  
And I think, and that's what has been the biggest delay in writing this book. I mean, it took, you know, it took me 10 years to even open literally the shoe box, a shoe box, still covered in sand, sand from Desert in Afghanistan with letters I wrote to my wife, and she wrote to me and let us my family. And my own journal that I wrote, I hadn't never read that in over 10 years. And it was literally over the last year this year, I sat down, I read that journal, I was so scared about what I was going to read in that journal. But it was really great because it helps remind me the memory, you know, memory warps in sometimes I sometimes I question, Did this really happen to me? And I have to go back to that journal and remind myself Yeah, it did. And, you know, so it's been Yeah, you're absolutely right. Fear is absolutely one thing that's held me back and writing it through my own digging down and really understanding and so now fear holds me back. It's not holding me back, I'm overcoming that but fear hold me back by getting this to the point where it could be published or it will be published because now other people are going to read those experiences, you know, and that opens up a whole other level of, of doubt. And it's kind of self judgment if you like,

Emily Rodger  14:35  
Yeah, it's interesting, too, you know, talking about how you were saying before, we all have a story and it's you know, that thing around imposter syndrome up like who am I to write a book or who's gonna want to hear about me or what do I even have to share? And, and you know, I wonder of, how much of it is about this like that. It can be really uncomfortable when we do have to start to look within to actually see like, Okay, what is their story, you know, and you talk about, like unpacking those boxes, but figuratively and literally. And then when we open those things, when we open those compartments, it's like, oh, now we've got to kind of deal with them, and just how important and therapeutic that is because like, I believe as leaders, we can only take people as far as we are willing to go ourselves. And in order to do the work within that, we do have to fully look at ourselves and and really dive into it. What do you find that the hardest part of that process has actually been actually writing the book, or just a V, like opening up those those those compartments, those boxes that like, let's say, two years ago, in conversations that you and I have had, you wouldn't even tap into?

Speaker 1  15:56  
Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And I think my initial reaction and answer is, is that what's been the hardest part? Is that lingering question I always had is, what's gonna be the impact of this on somebody else when they read it. And I specifically mean, are those who had similar experiences, or were they're experiencing the exact same thing that I was, so I was very, still very consonant cautious, that I've chosen to unpack some of my experiences and stories. But some of them I've, even though I've unpacked I'm not writing about, and I'm not sharing, because that might create challenges for other people who have chosen not to do that. And so, you know, I'm always kind of hold there, there are some things that I've held back, there are quite a lot of things that I've held back, and that I will not write about in that book, even though, you know, defining moments, because it's sometimes they're not my stories to tell. And even if there are more stories to tell, the impact on others I know to this day is quite significant. And I don't feel it's fair to you know, take others in a place where they don't want to go yet.

Emily Rodger  16:58  
Yeah. And even with like, so with your public speaking. And you I mean, you've really stepped into that area that, Rena, how much do you think of like your work with other people, both in speaking and leadership development and training and coaching has given you maybe that confidence to step into more fully of who you are,

Speaker 1  17:24  
it's given me so much confidence, because almost like what Dave said about our stories, like sometimes, what we know is obvious to us because we know it. And it was only as I started to deliver the speeches or deliver that training, where people were like, Oh, my gosh, yes, Phil, this is fantastic. I wish I'd heard this before, you know, you really just reinforced something I've been thinking but no one's ever, you know, echoed. And it just gave me confidence that my message, people do want to hear my message, it does resonate with people, you know, and it does have an impact. And I think that was what kind of that snowball effect of just, you know, having that confidence, belief. And then also, I'll be honest, maybe I'm at a point in my life, where you just start to care less about what other people think. And I don't mean that in a I don't mean that in a in an arrogant way. But you just realize how much time energy I've wasted in my life trying to worry about what others may think. And then you realize, you know what, we're all too busy looking inside our own problems, and our own issues, no challenges. So, you know, it was almost like, I think you even Emily, I think you might have asked me this in a coaching call sure is like, what right? Do I have to keep these things inside? If they can impact somebody else? Like I don't have a right you know, so? Yeah, I think the drive my desire to share my messages become as become way greater than my fear of what those messages, you know, how they may land on people.

Dave Veale  18:42  
One of the biggest Yes, being a coach, but also one of the biggest challenges is, doesn't always feel like you're, when you're talking to your client, you can't help but think by doing this work. Like am I, you know what I mean? Like, you're really encouraging someone to be, you know, courageous or whatever. And then, then you kind of look and you're like, wait a sec, and it's like, oh, shit, now I gotta do this. You know what I mean? Like, and I just don't want to do this, but how can I be credible? Like you? Yeah, of course, your client doesn't know this, but I, you know, start to feel like a fraud. If I'm not trying to do my own work. It's sometimes exhausting. So

Speaker 1  19:18  
true. I mean, me we were talking about this just this morning even is like when we're in a coaching conversation. You know, you're actually at the end of it. You're like, oh, wow, yeah, maybe I should listen to my own advice. And, you know, you said something, Dave, about fraud, you know, a defining moment, almost in my path to kind of creating and launching my own business. I'll never forget this. It was my daughter, you know, speaking, skating quite a lot at the time. And she was maybe seven or eight and she's going on to a big show, and she's going on the ice all by herself. And she's really scared and typical dad was like, a typical parent, you know, I was like, Oh, don't be scared. Don't be scared, you know. And she got on the ice and she skate in front of like these, these adults and just did incredibly well just because she got an ice and skated and I was, you know, living my comfortable job if you like a very secure, salaried position. So I was here I'm telling my eight year old daughter not be scared, don't let fear drive your car and all these great motivational, inspirational quotes. And yet I am completely doing the opposite. You know, and I'm so I just remember, I was like, Phil, you're an absolute fraud, and you have no right to stand there and say this to your kids, if you don't actually start doing something about yourself, I kind of caught myself out. And that's, you know, I've kind of held myself accountable to that aspect since, you know,

Emily Rodger  20:28  
yeah, and I think that like the the support that it's needed, you know, it's like I look at that, like the, the imposter syndrome and the fear and that, for me, it's like, there's almost 40 years of compounded stuff that has like, made me have that self doubt. And that it is that way, with everyone, just like all of the experiences compounded on each other that even when we do then start to say, like, Okay, I'm gonna work through that, like if I'm, if I'm encouraging a child, or whoever else to get on the ice, but that it is like that it is hard. Personal work is hard. And then it is a nonstop ongoing thing. And even though we can encourage others and support and facilitate that, like for myself, like, I mean, gosh, like I call on YouTube all the time. We need that support from one another, but it is that thing of like, okay, it comes up like that self doubt comes off, or that impostor syndrome comes up, and now what are you going to do about it?

Speaker 1  21:34  
Yeah, what are you going to do? I love that. And, you know, I think we have these defining moments in our life, and we make promises to ourselves to grow and to lean into the discomfort. But then, if nature takes over, and we just become comfortable, and more comfortable, and more comfortable. And that's exactly the path I was on five or six years ago, I was living a life of comfort. And, you know, reading my journal, and kind of unpacking my experiences, it actually reminded me as such a defining moment, which I kind of had forgotten about, you know, we all like to write a letter home to our loved ones that hopefully they would never read, you know, unfortunately, a couple of folks who were with their letters got read, and you know, you never want you to let it let it read, obviously. And when we left, when we were relatively safe, like leaving the country, we all got these letters handed back to us. And mine was a handwritten letter, you know, wrote to my wife, and it was sealed envelope, you know, and, and I remember walking into desert in the middle of the night, and it was like, literally pitch black, and I took this letter, and I ripped into pieces in my hand, I took a lighter, and I lit that that lit the letter and let it burn into the ground. I remember making a commitment and promise to myself that I've been given a chance and opportunity, and I will never, ever punch my ticket in life. And like, I used to work in a factory in Black and Decker and you punch a ticket in and out, you're just checking it out, you know, and I was I used to I made the commitment, like, never, ever put your ticket in life, Phil never ever, like take these experiences you've had and do something with them. And then five or six years ago, I completely forgotten about that promise. And that commitment, I absolutely was living a life of comfort, you know, and then reading like so unpacking my experiences, and really helped me to remind myself of those defining moments and the commitments that I made to myself, you know, that's

Dave Veale  23:09  
very powerful. And maybe on some level you, I don't know, I give myself some grace, sometimes, like, maybe they just need a little to chill a little bit. I don't need to be climbing this this hill, like, you know, my Hill, whatever that hill is, but good for you to catch yourself on the plateau and say, You know what, I want to start climbing again. You know, the the notion where you step outside your comfort zone, your whole, the whole comfort zone expands, you know, as you've gone through this, and you've done this, and you kind of challenged yourself, what else has changed in your life, if anything? I mean, that's

Speaker 1  23:39  
a great question. And my wife will give you the better answer. But it's funny, because actually, we were speaking about this, even this morning was speaking about this. And I won't use the exact words because we've been pretty open and frank with each other. But I basically said, can you imagine if I was still working in exci? Oh my gosh, like, I did not like myself then. And she was she just looked me said, Oh, you didn't like yourself, like we didn't like you, you know, and those weren't the exact words we use. We were our words are way more fruitful than that. Her words towards me Even so, you know, like I was given leftovers to my family. At the end of the day. It's like a buffet of food and all the energy was getting spent in other areas and not the people that matter the most. And so absolutely, you know, I would like to say I'm, you know, a lot more present as a spouse, as a, as a data. I'm not I'm not saying I'm better. It's a lifelong journey. I fail every day in those areas. But, you know, I would say that there's so many positive impacts. And I really, sometimes we question, you know, like, my wife's an entrepreneur as well. And we're very, you know, busy lives and kind of, not the typical eight to four, nine to five or whatever, and we work evenings and weekends, and you say, is this how's this impact on our kids? And yeah, there's some moments where I'm sure they would, you know, love us to be there and we're not but also I think there's a lot of things they're learning by watching us and you know, how we're kind of courageously going and creating our own path if you like,

Emily Rodger  25:01  
what is one of the biggest things that you have learned about yourself through stepping into public speaking.

Speaker 1  25:07  
I mean, it's almost like reinforcing or real that, that there's always something else that we're gonna like, we're never stopped our learning journey, like, so I get up there and I speak every time and, and every time I'm speaking, it's almost like David somatic coaching, like I'm learning some for myself, like, the same words are coming out my mouth, roughly. But the the message in my head or the impact afterwards to me is completely different. And so, you know, it's almost like I watched a webinar early on today, and I'd watch this webinar six months ago. And you can same analogy applies to watching a movie as you watch it, you watch that movie or read that book, but you read it another stage in your life, six months, a year, six years, there's a different message that you're going to, you know, find so every time even I recount one of my experiences. I'm like, Oh, wow, yeah, that's actually what that could mean, as well, you know? Yeah,

Emily Rodger  25:56  
it's almost like how our like, our story is always constantly changing with the given space that we are in life and like the new knowledge that we have about ourselves and insights. And yeah, I find that a really just fascinating thing. Yeah.

Dave Veale  26:24  
We have this one workshop is called using coaching to lead and it's half day, and I, I would suspect, I've delivered it 50 times, you know, like, just myself, right? And Serbia in northern British Columbia, you know, in deep Florida, like, I'm just everywhere, very culturally different places. It's really about like, what is coaching? What is our coaching, you do coaching demonstration, show two versions, you teach people the skill of powerful questions and how to listen to experiences, though. And I love doing it, this is a perfect amount of time for me, because I find, you know, the full day, that afternoon can be a little bit of a grind, you know, what is really interesting is the learning I get as a moderator every or facilitator every time I deliver it to a new group, and it's like, Oh, pretty good. Never thought of it. The content really hasn't changed. Oh, in whatever how many years like it, maybe it's closer to 100 times. I don't even know how many times I've delivered it. But there's something about repetition, that's probably not a bad thing, in terms of deepening our understanding, like he think I'd be bored of it. But I actually don't I really enjoy it. Not because I'm really comfortable content, but because I'm kind of curious, like, how is this group going to respond to this part? Right? Or what are the feedback going to be that I just wow, never considered that before? Does that make sense? Yeah,

Speaker 1  27:45  
I love it. I completely relate. And it makes so much sense. And they know I was delivering workshop a couple weeks ago, and I had to begin, I said, Listen, I will tell you the secret. But I'm actually going to learn more today than any any of us out here. And it's so true. You learn so much more if you're curious, you lean in. And you know, going back to like, some things, you said that Davia like, I'll deliver my keynote, and there's you know, there's parts of it, which I really, which really stand out to me. And then you'll speak somebody afterwards. And they won't even mention those parts as having any impact on them whatsoever. And then they'll say like this random throwaway message, you know, I put in there like put that when you said that. I'm like, what, that's just like a random throw it you know, and then, and then you'll say the exact same words, and two people will have completely interpreted in for their own perspective and completely different ways, which is absolutely fine. That's what you want to happen. But it's fascinating.

Emily Rodger  28:32  
Yeah, the time and this whole thing to around, like perfecting it and perfecting our message. And when so often is just that thing of like speaking what comes and just trusting and knowing that like, whoever is going to take it is going to take it in a way that they need to take

Speaker 1  28:51  
it the way they need to take it. I like that. I like your emphasis on yeah, like I mean, the world's craving authenticity right now. I mean, well, we have been for a number of years, we just realized it, maybe. But when we were craving it, and we're buying it, and we're following it, and I think there's nothing more authentic than just getting up on stage and just, you know, not delivering a perfect message. You know, big book, like last week, I gave a keynote for a big conference in the province, I'd say it was, you know, it was the most relaxed I've been and given a keynote and and it wasn't perfect. And I stumbled and yet I to me if I had to break myself, it's best keynote I've ever, ever delivered. Now, it's not about what I think about it, obviously about what the audience thinks about it. But I was relaxed, I was able to connect the audience, look them on the eyes, make few ad hoc jokes connect the message a little bit better than because it wasn't it wasn't perfect. I wasn't worried about the script or the message, you know? Yeah.

Emily Rodger  29:39  
And then it's like a matter of okay, well, who was it about that in those moments? Like when you're really trying to like perfect it and whatever else like, is it about you? Or is it about like the message that you are actually trying to give to who you're speaking to, like

Speaker 1  29:55  
coaching, I guess coaching you're there to serve the person you're coach and I think when we're delivering keynote, for instance, we are there, obviously 1% to serve our audience, it is a privilege, and we're there to serve our audience, and not about making ourselves look like we're this, you know, amazing speaker can deliver a perfect

Dave Veale  30:11  
script. What can people expect in terms of seeing this book or learning more about it? We don't have a title right now.

Speaker 1  30:19  
We're no, no, yeah, I mean, I have a title. I don't know why I don't want to say what the title may be. It's around the whole book, The whole premise of the book is around making yourself ie irrelevant as a leader, like, I truly believe in our role in a leader, and it's a paradox, it's a little bit play on the title there, you know, but it's about, you know, Delegate in empowering, trusting everyone around us. So they can really, you know, bring their whole talent and have the space and freedom to shine themselves. So it's all about, you know, the relevant, the relevant leader, if you like, so we're kind of at the, you know, kind of edited, got, I've got an editor on board, we're going through the, you know, first second edits. So, I don't know, to be honest, I'm very naive and deliberately am naive, if you like. But, you know, I mean, I'm goofy know what the next steps will be. But I think we're a few months out. But a lot of efforts, any delays, it's just because of imposter syndrome and fear. So I just got to push through them. And like I said, I'm not trying to write, you know, this best seller, but I do find that I think my message will resonate. And, you know, it's it's a it's a comment, it's not a how to book but it's not a memoir, it's it's combination of both, like, you know, it's it's shares my stories, it shows from my experiences was not, I've never been a fan of telling war. So it's not just me telling war stories. It's not at all what it's about, you know, I tell a story to help resonate, the message resonate, but you know, and then I do a little bit of like, okay, like, this is what I think but it's not like a one on one guide to how to lead well, because there is no such thing to exist.

Dave Veale  31:45  
And I'm guessing it'd be such a nice addition to you speaking, if people want to learn more, they can purchase a book, we were talking to an author, a couple interviews ago, and he was describing, you know, for him, I thought, probably everyone's little different, but not approaching the publisher until he was, you know, really well into it, versus feeling like you're promising something you're not sure you can deliver. And I wanted to ask him more about that, Emily, because I was kind of curious about that. Yeah, I assumed it was the other way around, you go, you kind of pitched the idea. And then you got to follow through on it. I know this, you're doing this for a different reason. And I mean, that he would be like, three books and that sort of thing. But there's some wisdom in what you're doing, I guess is what I learned from this other interview,

Speaker 1  32:31  
I want my methods met my message, my message, you can be authentic. And if a publisher said to me, Hey, if you change these three, four pages, this chapter, it's going to sell more, I'll be like, No, I'm sorry, I'm not unless it's grammatically wrong, you know, unless there's some editing. But you know, it's going to be my story. And you know, what is, like I said, there's three people that needs to resonate with the most. And that's me, my two kids vocal resonates with them, then my job? You know, that's my goal.

Emily Rodger  32:55  
And one of our previous conversations, well, you and I were speaking around the light coming off of the highs. And so whether it is the heart of a big project, or giving a keynote or a trip, or how do you find because I think that this is something that like, I know, for my clients, I like speaking a lot about just those ups and downs, and how to navigate those, and how does navigating those look like, real is

Speaker 1  33:23  
a great topic, isn't it? And I do find, often I have the highs and lows, you know, you deliver a keynote and it lands Well, the origins and then you know, then what the next day you just sat in your home office, again, doing business development. And so I think a lot of it comes down to the burden sometimes, but just the whole discipline, the individual discipline, you know, and I truly believe that you've got to be disciplined and motivation may may follow, but you've got to be disciplined, first and foremost. So that's, I'm somebody who likes structure. So it's hard to get in household when you've got kids. But you know, that, you know, schools back in full form and everything like that, it's it's a lot easier. So I need to have structure and I need to be disciplined to kind of manage those, you know, but I think acceptance while there is highs and lows, and that's life, and I saw a great quote today, and I'm gonna paraphrase and get it wrong, but it's, you know, life's hard. It's always been hard, always will be hard. Learn how to, you know, to, to work and live through the hard you know, struggle well as they say, you know, and so I think that's just the way it is.

Emily Rodger  34:25  
How do you navigate through those times, Dave? The heart, or even just the like, yeah, when when things like when business feels like it could be going super well, and you're just like, you're motivated. And then you have those days or a week where it's like just kind of feeling that slump. Oh, man.

Dave Veale  34:43  
I mean, for me, exercise is so important. I think we probably all share that because, you know, pre post workout, the same challenge doesn't seem the same to me. So that's critically important for me. You know, and it's funny because a lot of times you'll be wrestling with something in it. You'll think to yourself like, so if someone else is presenting this to me, Well, how would I, you know, what would I do encourage them? And like, how is it hard to do it yourself? So it's kind of recognizing it, like, there's been some highs and lows, that we've had some really good things happening. And then there's just the inevitable challenge. And I think what might be challenging for Phil or for me might not be for you, Emily, and vice versa. I'm trying hard. That's why I'm so fast for this topic, to do what you're describing, which is just to do the uncomfortable, keep pushing. And I think the pandemic kind of created a little bit of safety for me, like in terms of certain things that have really become obvious, like, Wait, you got to get out do x, because for some reason, you're avoiding that. What's going on there, go do it, you know. So for me, it's about doing and I think the more inactive I am, the more just it kind of gets in my head and not good. So what I try to do and what I try not to do, I don't even if that makes any sense, but I'm a work in progress. How's that? I'm still. We all are. Maybe I'll get up and I'll start reading Phil's book when I get it. And I'll go all right now I'm ready. You know,

Speaker 1  36:11  
the exercise thing is so such a great point, though. I mean, the last six months, I've probably failed on the exercise thing. You know, and I was in a slump, and I can is a direct correlation to how much exercise and my mental state is absolutely directly correlated. And you know, it just getting out and going for a walk or something. And everything just helps put everything in perspective and gets our own minds. And it's so easy. It's so easy to forget that. So yeah, I think the exercise and no one wants, I mean, let's be honest, no one's to get up in the morning, go and exercise. No one's dodgy, you know, drive to the gym, or whatever it is. I mean, some days, yeah, we do. But I'd say majority of days, like, Ah, come on. But I think, you know, think about the long term goal and knowing the positive impact that hasn't on mindset is key.

Emily Rodger  36:51  
Speak, which, about a year ago, almost exactly. Phil and I were on a conversation Dave and Phil had mentioned. Well, you Phil, you tell the story. I think you know where I'm going.

Speaker 1  37:05  
I talked about my competition. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you know, COVID that you mentioned, David, I got me comfortable, if you like, by not working out as much as I should work out and you know, not going out, you know, getting out that house and fresh air and January 2022, I guess. I was like, Yeah, I feel like you got to do something or you're on a slippery slope, physically, you're on a slippery slope. But mentally It was absolutely affecting my mental health. And I'm the sort of person where I need a bit of an extreme. It's not right word, but I just I need I need a challenging goal to help lift me up. So I was like, I'm going to do a physique competition and men's you know, bodybuilding physique competition. And, you know, going into the I entered the kind of recordable immense busy, you know, so just not the big category, but just, you know, really just toned down and, and I went on basically, almost a 12 month kind of journey of really, really dedicating a lot of time and energy to my nutrition to my physical kind of exercise. You know, I was working out almost 10 times a week of weighing every single bit of food, I ate macros, I didn't drink alcohol for almost a year, you know, I really was eating completely clean, and it had nothing to do it had nothing to do with the actual competition or what that was doing to my body. It was absolutely all about a mental challenge. I feel like I'd lost I'd lost confidence in being able to overcome adversity. And, you know, I was living in a living in Canada and such a comfortable life. And I hadn't always had, you know, I've obviously been in a lot of different extreme situations where I've had to face adversity. So I was always challenging myself in that role in that way. And I was always getting confident that I could overcome adversity, and I'd lost that. So I almost had to create this full, super, like, tough environment for me to prove myself, I still had the mental capacity. So I went on this big adventure, and I competed last November. October was fantastic. And, you know, the ironic thing is leading up to that it was in Multan, I drove to the the event, I wasn't really I didn't really care about the weekend. It wasn't really Yeah, it was like me, you know, because to me, it was about the journey, it was about proving to myself that I could do it that if you know that if I needed to put my mind to something that I could do it and I think that that was a great training ground for the book and for my business now and to be disciplined and structured because it makes me It forced me to do so many things that I didn't I don't want to do you know, and you know, I know it sounds odd but if I can spend a summer sitting around campfires and you know, eating rice and boiled chicken and drinking a bubbly when everyone else is doing the complete opposite, then you know, I can pretty much get through a lot of the hard business things.

Dave Veale  39:30  
That is good that is fertile ground like that. Well done. Well done. I love that. Marilyn has a similar story to that, Emily that that I think yeah, I

Emily Rodger  39:40  
was actually just thinking that Marilyn or yeah who has also been on the podcast and it's a coaching on the vision coaching roster and yeah, she the same.

Dave Veale  39:50  
Yeah, very similar, very similar.

Speaker 1  39:52  
But that Emily part you didn't mention sorry, Dave, is that that started during a coaching call a one coaching call in particular, Emily co reached me. And she basically said, like, you're gonna get off his call, you're gonna go and find a gym, you're gonna join a gym and stop cookers quit your excuses, basically, you know, and she didn't use his word, She obviously was a great coach. And she coached me into that mindset myself. But that's how it all started. It was like, she's got notes. And because we reference them, you're like, beginning of December, I was 21. And I got my credit card out, went to went to a gym, and that was it all good one coaching call.

Dave Veale  40:23  
The other thing I find a real gift. I mean, we talked about some of the challenges around the work you got to do on yourself to feel like you need to be credible. But the other the gift is doing podcasts is a real gift. Because whatever's going on in my head two hours ago is like you just feel very present to who you're interviewing and talking to and learning from, or, you know, that work with clients is, and I find that it can really pop you out of, if you're feeling a little low or funk or have one of those inevitable kind of lows. It shouldn't be designed this way. But like, it's like is altruism, like kind of pure altruism, real? Like, no, you always get something back, you know, and, and I feel like, you know, we're getting paid to do this. But, man, what a gift to be part of a conversation, a coaching conversation. And it can Yeah, I find that that can be really inspiring, as well, or having a really cool conversation like we're having with you right now, Phil,

Speaker 1  41:14  
you know, and the word that comes to mind, as you're saying all this, because I couldn't agree more is connection. You know, it's that connection. And I know, for me, one of the hardest tools I still struggle with these days, being my own business owner and entrepreneur is there can be days, where I will sit in my home office and I if I actually not active, right, I will not connect with another human being outside of my immediate family. You know, and, and that was that is still a big challenge for me from somebody, I was always around teams, I've already always leading teams for 20 years before, you know prior to that, so I think it's that, for me, it's that connection. Like, if I that will get me out of any sort of slump, I'm in just having that. And it has to be an honest, real, deep authentic connection. And it just for me, it's it's can change your whole mindset. Perfectly said, I love that.

Emily Rodger  42:02  
Yeah, I think to this thing around it just like being intentional. And in a couple of podcasts ago, I forget, we were talking about like multitasking. And how multitasking. I mean, especially being business has kind of become such a like a badge of honor. And like when we are in on these calls, whether it's like recording a podcast, or like a coaching call with the client, like we are 100% focused on just what it is that we are doing now. And I think that even that, like I know, for me like that is when I feel the most calm that is when I feel the most present it is like this is how our bodies are supposed to be feel. Instead of being constantly stimulated by all of these other things that are like popping up and just around like the importance of like, we need to create the spaces to be able to actually even connect, because I find like so people can say they're connecting, but it's like, are you actually?

Unknown Speaker  43:02  
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Dave Veale  43:07  
The book have a sense of what the title is. Well, I won't say that. But you know, someone listening to this is thinking, you know, I'd love to have Phil come talk to my executive team or at this conference or whatever. So what's what's the best way they find you? Phil? I don't think we'll probably have show notes. But might be nice. Just to get a little plug.

Speaker 1  43:26  
Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Dave. Yeah. I mean, I'm very active on LinkedIn. That's, I guess, my social platform I've chose to go deep into so I can be found on LinkedIn. My website is impact leadership. team.com. And, you know, besides i Good old Google search, I'm sure will pop up some good stories and bad stories about me and you point everyone in the right direction. So yeah, I'd love to come and share my mess genre. You know, it's funny on the biggest track, the biggest business lessons I've learned is, you know, people want you to come and speak to them. And I'm so passionate about sharing my message. I really am I want to serve and give back to others, when the hardest things I've had is to stop doing it for free. Because that's not a good business decision to make, you know, but I would love to come in, you know, speak to speak to those leadership teams, organizations who really value the message and what they pay for it. Yeah, exactly.

Emily Rodger  44:13  
Pay him for a lot of years of knowledge and wisdom and expertise and all of the above. Phil, as always, it is such a privilege and honor to be a friend via colleague to have you come on here and share your story with us with I'd like and it's even still I'm like, Oh yeah, we're on a podcast. Like there's other people

Dave Veale  44:40  
there's a certain comfort level sometimes right?

Emily Rodger  44:44  
Should be yes, there should be. But yeah, thank you so much. And we will list all of Phil's information and any extra that we discussed in the show notes and the best place for you all to find that is on our website at boiling point. podcast.com So Phil Dave, thank you both so much and I look forward to the next time I get to chat with both of you. Thanks so much.

Dave Veale  45:08  
Thanks, Dave. Good seeing you there.

Emily Rodger  45:12  
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