Beyond the X’s and O’s: Michael Huber On Coaching the Human, Not Just the Player

Matt Cundill  00:01

This is the mental approach where we discuss mindfulness, mental performance and the tools available for coping in a high performance world. Here's Todd Arkell

 

Todd Arkell  00:12

Today, my guest is Michael Huber. He's a young mental performance coach passionate about helping young athletes train the part of the game that matters most, the mind through practical tools, relatable conversations and a coaching style built on trust, Michael equips athletes with the mental edge they need to perform consistently, stay motivated and love their sport. Sorry for the formal intro, Michael, welcome to the show.

 

Michael Huber  00:36

Yeah, thank you, Todd. It's great to be here. I appreciate you having me.

 

Todd Arkell  00:40

Yeah, I don't know why it's taken me so long. I mean, you're a youth mental performance coach, and my podcast is called the mental approach to youth sports. What was I thinking?

 

Michael Huber  00:50

Well, there's a lot of lot of really good guests out there, so it just takes some time to find the right fit.

 

Todd Arkell  00:56

Yeah, no, it's, you know? And I feel like I know a lot about what's in the space, but I come across people I'm like, oh, that person would be perfect. I love their perspective. So I really appreciate carving out some time for me today. So let's start with, can you tell the listeners a little bit about your journey and kind of how you got into mental performance coaching?

 

Michael Huber  01:14

Yeah, so mental performance coaching is my second act and act in life. I started my practice almost six years ago, in terms of formally working with young athletes, I went back to school in 2017 to get a master's in sports psychology. That was sort of the culmination of this sort of exploration journey of my midlife crisis, of what do I want to do with my life when I grow up? Right? I had been in business consulting for about 20 years, 19 years working with companies in the consulting world, and I was reasonably good at my work, and I made a pretty good living, and I had a family, but I just was not fulfilled. And I really was like, I want to do something in the sporting world. Always did. I just had no clue how to do it. And I think the thing that really started to sort of move that process forward was when I started to coach my own children, who are now teenagers. When they were young. I love working with kids. I loved helping them grow. I helped them have fun, put smile on their faces, want them to keep going in their sport, right? Typically, mostly baseball. And the things I would see and hear as a parent coach on the outside of the fence were the things that I would really start to think about, like, hey, something maybe needs to be different here. And I didn't know how to do that, other than to show up and be a volunteer coach a couple times a week. But I thought there was something bigger there. And that's where I started to think about like, how could I make an impact, and what would my career look like in the second go around and sports psychology just spoke to me. I was a baseball player growing up through high school. The mental side of my game was my, probably my biggest deficiency, besides the fact that wasn't particularly athletic, but I was but I was a good player, I was a good hitter, I was a great fielder, I was good at the game, but like, whatever was going on between my years was just not allowing me to get the most out of my ability, and so I wanted to have the opportunity to help young people avoid that. And that was sort of like put that all together. That's what got me to where I'm at right now.

 

Todd Arkell  03:14

It's a calling, per se, that's for sure. So I was gonna ask about parents later, but you brought it up. So how do you help parents understand the difference between being encouraging and perhaps unintentionally creating performance pressure in their kids?

 

Michael Huber  03:31

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head with the word unintentionally, right? I think as parents, and I'm a parent too, and you're a parent like, we want the best for our children, right? And the intention is always good, right? Unintentionally, we may be add some expectation or pressure to the equation through the language that we use, right? So, like the number one, think the number one thing I suggest to parents when they ask me what I can what they can do to be better sports parents is ask more questions and make less statements. Right? As a parent, it's hard because, and I do it too, and I I'm a mental performance coach, like, I want to just tell my child, hey, if you do this based on my experience, things are going to be better. But that doesn't work, because it's their experience. And when it comes out of my mouth and it sounds like I'm telling them what to do, all of a sudden they shut down because I'm dad and they don't want to hear it, versus be curious and tell me about what's going on. What do you want? What's happening? How can I help you? Now, all of a sudden, it becomes a two way, right? And that's hard to do as a parent. I'm really good at it in my mental performance coaching job as a parent, I'm not as good as it, just because, like, that's the nature of parenting. So I think it's just being aware of what you're saying, how you're saying it, and then really putting the focus on the process more than the outcomes. I think that's also the again, these are natural things that happen in the course of sports. Because. Sports are about outcomes, no, 100%

 

Todd Arkell  05:03

but you know what? Like, I agree it is about outcomes. And it's interesting, because I talk about this, you know, with friends, or even, you know, on the show or different things. And I think about like, I even think like, I've coached soccer and I've coached baseball and I've coached hockey, and, you know, I'm in, I remember, like I used to, and I played all those sports so, but I remember when I first, you know, with one of my older sons, he was playing soccer, and I was like, Oh, my God, this coaching is terrible. And, you know, and more from a just encouragement and, like, whatever. And then I said to myself, well, don't be the guy who sits on the sideline in his chair and starts yapping about it. So why don't you just get involved and kind of, you know, kind of do your own things. But I kind of feel like, you know, going through some of these process, like I can self reflect and look back and go, Oh, not great behavior on my part as a coach, whatever it was, right? So a great example is, coached my son in baseball for a number of years, decided, hey, you know, it's time for him to be coached, not by me, because, you know you don't want to have to talk. You don't have to listen to dad all the time. Is probably not the best for your own development. Sat in a sat in a lawn chair for two years and observed so much bad behavior that I used to exhibit, or things that something would happen and I go like, ooh, that's not a good look. So then ultimately, I dragged, dragged back into coaching for another year before I stepped away. But that year, I was a totally different person in my approach, my language, because I sat there observing, going, like, Oh, I thought that was a good idea. I don't think that. I don't like that,

 

Michael Huber  06:45

yeah, but I love that because, like, when you're in it, right? You volunteered to do it because it's like, well, I want to contribute and not be the guy on the side, just making the being in the peanut gallery. Then you get in it, and what you learn, I think, as a coach, is, it's emotional, right? The way that 100 kids get emotional about the game, you get emotional about the game. I have, I have a story about that. My son stopped playing baseball at 14, but I coached him up until that point, and I coached baseball in high school, and I played baseball for a long time, even outside of a school I played in adulthood for 15 years. So it's a game I'm very familiar with in a lot of ways. And there was this one game where I was coaching his team, and the guy on the other the coach on the other side, was a guy that I knew from town, regular, you know, relatively a little bit. And he was like, running up the score on us right like kids were running around the bases, like I had the bad news bears, basically, and and I got mad, and I like, was like, MF, and him, like, I broke down. And I was like, You're classless. You're this, like, blah, blah, blah. Like, I lost my cool, and when I reflected back on it, right? I was like, one I was doing it well, it was not correct, right? I didn't respond the way I should have. I should have been able to handle it better, but I didn't. It happens two, I was trying to protect my kids, right? There was no reason that they had to go through that at the hands of a person who clearly doesn't understand baseball etiquette, which we can argue that all day, right? But there's a certain etiquette. There's a certain etiquette in the game of baseball, if you've played where you're winning 15 to nothing, you stop doing certain things. And I think that was my player coming out like, hey, like, I want to go on the mound and I want to hit someone with a fastball in the ribs, because this is what you don't do. I couldn't do that, but I took it out on the other guy. Took it on the coach. But I think the most important point for me was like, apologizing to everybody, my kids, the other coach, and the parents, like, Hey, I lost my cool. I got emotional. I shouldn't have done it, but it happens. It's okay. We're human, but I'm going to acknowledge that I was wrong, and I think that that's also something that I'm very big on with any adult, whether it's a coach or a parent, and say, like, Hey, don't be afraid to tell your kid you're sorry for something that you did that you shouldn't have done, versus, like, burying it and saying, Well, I'm the parent. I can do whatever I want. I'm not going to apologize for it. That erodes trust, even if it's like a micro level erosion. You know what I'm saying?

 

Todd Arkell  09:20

Yeah, no. And I Quick, quick story. I was coaching as an assistant coach. We'll share, swap some stories. The head coach's son, pretty good player, and we were new to a relationship, like didn't know each other very well. Anyways, some was in the outfield, misses a ball, whatever we get out of the inning, comes running in, and his dad basically chews his butt out. And they go into the dugout, and he's sitting at the end of the dugout next to my son, and I just kind of strolled down, and I said, Happy Birthday, by the way, because it was his birthday, and I think his dad chewed his ass out on his birthday, which was funny. I go Happy Birthday. And just, you know, sucks to play for your dad, ask that kid, and started laughing and walked out of the dugout, right? And my kid starts laughing, right? I'm like, trying to at least go, Hey, man, it just, it is what it is. Yeah, it was not good behavior by his hot his part. And I'm sure he self reflects back and thinks, like, Why did I do that? But you're right. I think you hit it right on the head. I mean, people get emotional in sports, and, you know, there's people that haven't played sports there really can't understand, ah, that's dope. Why did you you know, they can't understand where that emotion comes from. And but again, you have to be kind of the bigger person, and you have to figure out how to deal with it. And I think it's ego driven in a lot of ways, both as a player, both as an adult, you know, like, I should have prepared these guys better. I'm embarrassed. My team sucks, whatever,

 

Michael Huber  10:52

right? It's a reflection. It's a reflection on me,

 

Todd Arkell  10:55

sure, sure. And I think, you know, it is just intra it is interesting to me, because I think the process matters. But you know, if you're I call it the professionalism of youth sports. People get tired of me saying this, but it's just the way I feel. You know, little hockey players here in Canada show up, and I know you're in the Northeast United States, probably the same thing. Show up to the rink at nine years old in suits and ties, and they're expected to behave in certain ways, and it's like coaches are paid, and they may not be the best behaved either, because their livelihood depends on the outcome, not on the development of your kid, and it's not in every sport, but most rep sports, or more elite or high level sports, the coaches, you know, financial outlook in life seems to be tied to

 

Michael Huber  11:47

results, yes, but, but I think, you know, I have, and I don't disagree with you. I think you're 100% right about the nature of the sports industry. I recall that that's, let's call it what it is. But at the same time, I like, I think there's just so many good things in it, right? And having professional I agree, having professional coaches has a lot of benefits, as opposed to a parent who, you know, you hear the phrase daddy ball or parent and like, there's all sorts of everybody has their own point of view, but a professional coach is a good thing, but you also have to understand that his livelihood is tied to the result, right? We need to win whatever tournaments showcases so that we can use that information to then market to the outside world to grow the business. That's real life. So to come back to what, what it is I do with young athletes is one of the things I'm I talk about all the time with them, is understanding the landscape that you're in. Right? Your coach might be doing something for a reason that you don't understand as a 15, 1617, year old. Now I can talk to you about developing that level of empathy that will help you, maybe settle yourself. But even if you don't, you have to know how to not let that affect how you show up. An adult makes a decision that you don't understand. Well, what's my what's my response to that? Do I have a conversation with the adult? How do we prepare for it? Or how do I settle myself when the coach puts me knife in the lineup or takes me out of the lineup today? Am I able to stay focused in the dugout, on the bench, so that when he calls me to pinch hit in the sixth inning, right? I'm ready to do that? Versus, hey, screw this. I hate it, right? Like, ultimately, the responsibility falls on the individual, and that starts at a young age, and I'm very big on that. Like, hey, let's be aware. Let's hold ourselves accountable. Let's have a plan and a planned response, so that when we can't control the environment, which includes the adults that we interact with, I'm feel more prepared to deal with that, versus letting that be the the excuse or the reason and feel like I'm a victim in this situation, because it's going to happen the rest of your life, no matter what Setting you're in. How do I respond to the adversity?

 

Todd Arkell  14:03

Yeah, no, and those are all the positives that happen from sports. So I'm sure you come across this. How do you handle situations where maybe the parents goals and the athletes goals are misaligned?

 

Michael Huber  14:15

It's really difficult for me in my work, because most of my work is with athletes, one on one, in a private, confidential setting. And I would say that it's the it's, it's, it's the minority, in the minority where the goals are misaligned, but there are definitely times where, and I'm actually working through this right now with a hockey player who's a teenager, and the parents want one thing, they want him to sort of become confident and continue to play to the next level. And the kid is questioning his like, why am I doing this? And there's a misalignment in goals, because the parents want him to keep going. They think it's just a phase. And the kids telling me, hey, I don't know if I really love this enough to keep going. And they're. Not communicating. So it's very, very delicate. But I think ultimately, it's about sort of asking those questions on both sides, about like, is this really, you know what you want to do? Do you want to quit? Or are you just going through kind of a phase, right? So to speak, is it a phase with the parents, it's also asking them questions to start to see their athletes point of view, right? Like, I'm not a family counselor, although I get on zooms all the time with families to talk about stuff, and that's normal and natural. And I like doing that, because if they're communicating, the outcomes are going to be better most likely. But I think it's like asking the questions to get them to start to see the other person's side of the equation, so that they can come back together and be like, Hey, let's talk about this. Versus, I'm over here, you're over here. We don't talk about it. We just fight about it. And now it's like, it becomes emotional parent versus the kid and I'm in the middle of it, versus hey, let's bring them together and let them communicate to work it out. That's the way I sort of try to approach it as best I can, albeit it can be really hard to do.

 

Todd Arkell  16:08

Yeah, no, I get it, and I feel like, just from experience of what I seen it, just my perspective is there are a number of parents who are probably over emotional about everything, because they could be financially strapped based on the level of sport their kid is playing, right? And I really do believe that that adds pressure to the situation. And if they feel like Johnny isn't getting playing time, or Susie isn't, you know, like being featured, like, then that adds extra stress. What am I paying all this money for? Oh, my God, this and they, they don't see it in the overall perspective. And I'd like to say I probably felt that way, like early with younger kids, with young kids, and then kind of was like, oh, had a bit of a, I don't know why I had the moment, but I had an awe moment going. This is kind of No, you know what? Just let it go. Don't be chasing things. It's gonna whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. You can try to find good situations for your kids and put them in those environments, but you can't control the situation. You know, even quick story this year, my son is going through a bit of a funk at the plate. He's not playing a lot, you know, getting mostly pinch hit or late defense subs, whatever. And he's like, you know, he was never one that really kind of grumbled. He goes, God, I don't know what's going on. I said, Well, why don't you just ask your coach, like, whatever. So, which ended up being the most Hilarity for me, because he says to his coach, he goes, Hey, what do I got to do to earn more time? Am I doing something wrong? He goes, striking out, too much. That was it. And it was like, Okay. And so I said, well, guess you better not strike out. Figure out how to put the ball in play, whatever. And you know what? He slowly but surely, and then all of a sudden, got an opportunity, and he was hot as a pistol.

 

Michael Huber  18:06

I love that story, right? Because I think one of the biggest things that I see in my work is the the anxiety that comes from not knowing where you stand, right? And and the fact that how old your son, he's 18. Yeah, so Amy isn't a young adult, right? So maybe a little bit easier to have that conversation, but still not always easy for anybody to go ask that question, how you frame it when you do it? All that stuff, and that stuff I work on with athletes all the time, but once you know the answer, even if it's a very direct gruff, hey, you're striking out too much. Now you're like, Okay, I get it. This is what the coach is focused on. And I need to then do something different to make the adjustment. I've got to change my approach. I got to change my process. I got to think about putting the ball and play more. How do I do that? Now there's you're in a problem solving mode versus, I'm in an emotional like, what we would call emotion focused coping versus problem focused coping, right? Like, I've taken the emotion from not playing and turned it into, how do I solve this problem? Right? By asking that question and getting the information now I know what to do, because we get stuck when we don't know the answer, right? Like, I don't know why, and so it's like I'm paralyzed because, well, I don't want to do something that's going to make it worse, or I don't want to do something if I'm not going to get any benefit from it, so I just do nothing, and I sit in the feeling versus like now I know, let's go do something to try to act our way out of it. I love that, and that's a conversation that happens every single day in my world. And I I love that conversation because that's what it's all about, figuring out, how do you make yourself a better player, versus waiting for something to happen?

 

Todd Arkell  19:45

You know, it's interesting because, I mean, I just kind of gave him the advice. As you know what? I'm not getting involved. Obviously, it's you're, you know, a young adult, and you have goals of playing at college. And I'm not calling your college coach to ask why you're not. Playing. So I'm not talking to this coach, but it was just more. I agree. I think sometimes we we manufacture, oh, the coach doesn't like me. Or the coach has a favorite. Guess what, folks, if you're listening, coaches have favorites. Everybody has favorites. They have favorites because that person performs, or that person, whatever it is, whatever they add to the process, right? That person supports the team in its goals. Like, there's, there's, there's reasons why they have favorites, right? And, and that's fine. And you can be a favorite too. There's like that. You could all like Coach, could really like all of the players on the team, and all be favorites of his for different situations, you have to figure out what your role is and be very clear about that. Like, okay, like, if I'm a pinch hitter and if I'm a mile straw, there's a good example. There's a guy playing for the Toronto Blue Jays in the in the World Series this year, a late inning defensive replacement doesn't hit very well, you know, they had that really long 18 inning game, and he got subbed in at a point because they thought, oh, we need him for his speed on the base. And then it was like, Oh, this game's going on forever. I could have used that other bat, you know, it can't be two people, but his role is to to be fast, you know, and and make defensive plays, and that's that, right? So, you know, there's a role for somebody, even at a professional level, that isn't a complete player, as long as you understand what that is. I think you could reconcile your your your abilities at that point, right? So, yeah, what do you, you know, explore? I want to explore a little bit about what you think are some of the most common mental and emotional struggles you're seeing today with these kind of middle school, high school athletes.

 

Michael Huber  21:49

I mean, listen, I think it's expectations of performance kind of goes back to what you were saying before, right? There's nobody wants to create. I shouldn't say that most people, parents don't want to create more pressure. Coaches don't want to create more pressure. They want you to perform and be happy and have fun. Think everybody deep down inside wants that, right? But there's these little things that create the expectations in the world, in the environment that they're in, and those expectations start to build right in the mind of the young person A lot of times, because they don't know how to express the effect those expectations are having. And then that turns into performance on the field, right? I'm supposed to do this. I got to get a hit. I haven't got a hit in five at bats. I don't know how to unwind it. I don't know how to stop thinking about it, and the mind gets in the way of the body doing what it's been trained to do. Even if you're 15 or 13, you've probably been playing baseball, say, since you're four or five years old. You know what you're doing now. Obviously, can always be coached to be better, but you know how to pick up a bat, you know how to hold a bat, you know how to be good at it, because most people are quitting by that time, like you're still good enough to be involved, you forget that you actually are able to do it, because your mind's telling you you're not good at this anymore, right? You're not good enough to live up the expectations I've set for myself. I'm not good enough to live up to the expectations of the people around me, and maybe I shouldn't be here, right? I think we talked about, maybe before we recorded imposter syndrome, the same idea, I don't belong here. I'm not good enough. What am I doing? Versus, no, I belong here. Because A, B, C, D, all the way to z, I belong here. I just don't know how to unlock it, right? Not my favorite word, but it's a good word in that context. How do I unlock the ability and the preparation, the training, all the work I've done by just learning how to pick up my mind and put it over here. And let's go play baseball, because you hear it all the time. I hit really well in the cage. I throw really well in my bullpens. If I'm goofing around with my friends or I'm just playing, I kill it, and then I get into a game. All of a sudden, that meaning associated with the game becomes this sort of, you know, umbrella, you know, a brain cloud over someone's head, like, Oh no, all of a sudden, I've got to be something different, when, really, all I have to be is the same player I am. But I have to know how to do that. Have to have a plan. I have to have a plan response. I'm sounding like a broken record, being able to manage those expectations and know they come up and what it does to you, be aware of it, and then go, Okay, I know how to pick this up, move it over here and go play that's the biggest thing. I see. Everybody's different. Everybody's situation is different. Everybody sees the world differently. And that's really hard for me. It's one of the things I get paid to do, is understand that. But ultimately, it's that expectation. How do we work through it? How do we move it to the side and not let that be the thing that weighs us down too much?

 

Todd Arkell  24:47

Have you seen a shift in how athletes view mental coaching now compared to maybe when you started, like people are more receptive than they were before?

 

Michael Huber  24:58

That's a great question. You. Yes, I think a lot has changed in five years, right? And I'm you're in this world, so you probably follow along on social media. We'll use that as sort of the litmus test. There's so many more mental performance coaches of all types, right? And that's a whole nother conversation for another day. What your training is, what you focus on, all that stuff, how you do it. But there's a way more five years later than there was when I started. Right? I think it is much more acceptable. It's much more normalized. However, what I would say is, I think when it comes to mental anything, right, I think there is still a stigma. Right? People accept it on the surface superficially, but if they're the ones they're engaging in, they're also not like, waving their hands, going, I love this. I'm doing it. They're like, I don't want anyone to know. So I think it's been it's progressed on the surface, but I think when you're in it, I think a lot of people are not necessarily comfortable sharing that they're doing it. I think that's where we want to get to, because it's so normal and it's so valuable and so helpful to have somebody to help you think through and think about the world differently, to get the most out of your performance. But somehow, it's still perceived in some circles, in some ways, as being a weakness or being a stigma. And that's, you know, I think that's human nature. People just don't want to seem weak.

 

Todd Arkell  26:16

Yeah, I think that that is part of it. I think, you know, it's it is interesting. I do see at least people talking about it a little bit more, right? Obviously, that was kind of part of why this podcast was created. I saw a gap in the fact that everybody's practicing their jump shot or their, you know, top shelf hockey shot or dangles or whatever it was, and they're not really, you know, maybe getting to where they want to get in there, they're there. They don't have the tools to deal with all the noise is really what it is. And I mean, you know, I look at it as people like yourself, somebody that the athlete can talk to from, you know, a trusting position. They're not going to go share all my stuff. I'm going to talk, I'm going to tell them, you something that I'm not going to tell my parents. Probably, you know, I'm going to get some advice, you know, okay, and I can try to work through that. And, you know, all those different things. I mean, I know my son working with, working with a coach, and then, you know, was journaling. And then recently, I just said, okay, they're in offseason. I go, Hey, he's frustrated about something. I said, Well, are you journaling? Wow, you know, I don't need to journal. It's not about being a better baseball player. And I go, Hey, it's about being a better human. I go, if something's frustrating you sometimes it's good just to write it out. Why is this bugging me, right? Why? Why am I? Why am I emotionally involved in this? Why? Why am I getting entangled? Or what is try to get to the bottom of by writing it out. You take that piece of paper, throw in the garbage. You can burn it, you can whatever. But I think it helps us flush those things, right? You know, as you go. So I think that that's also something like, I look at it and say, you know, just from experience, people go, Oh, well, I only need to do it around my sport when a lot of these tools you're providing your clients are beyond the sport, aren't they?

 

Michael Huber  28:19

I love it absolutely and and, frankly, right? It's part of the value proposition that I communicate to those I want to hear what I have to say. Like, this is not just about your sport, right? For the most vast majority, and I've worked with kids starting five years ago that are no longer athletes, right? But at the time, the future was, I'm going to play in college or I'm going to do something at a higher level. But that's the beauty of it, like you just said, right? You articulated it really well, is like you take that skill with you for the rest of your life, right? When you're frustrated, and you write it down, you get it out of your head. When it's out of your head, it's much more like normal. When it's in your head, it becomes this, like massive, like albatross at times journal, and I think you you put your finger on something really important, and something I see all the time is, you know, listen, when young, any of us forget about young people, anybody can't put their finger on why I am doing something for themselves. They might take that journal and put it aside and put it aside and go, I don't need it. Why? Because it's not helping me, or I've got better things to do. Right? With my five or 10 minutes that I journal, I'm going to go scroll my phone to them. It's more important. But what I find is is like kids get to the desperation level, right? I'm struggling so much, I'll do whatever you tell me to do. I get a lot of those where it takes time try this. I want you to try to meditate. I want you to journal. I want you to work on these routines. I want to do all this stuff. Because if you practice it now and you do it when things aren't stressed, you're going to be really good at it when it happens in a pen. Pitch, no, no, no, no, no. Then come to the pinch. I don't have any tools. I'm really struggling now, all of a sudden, I'll do whatever you tell me to do. That's human nature. I think that's one of the biggest challenges for parents, right? You just said it. As a parent, we tell them what to do. It makes sense. We have the experience. We know better. Hey, if you just do this, it's going to be better. And they go, No, I don't need to do it. Until they feel that pain and go, Okay, now it's time to do it. That's the hard part, as a parent and as a coach, frankly, is being patient and just being like, Okay, I'm going to watch you bump your head, I'm going to watch you bump your head, I'm going to watch you bump your head, and then you finally stand up and go, I want to stop bumping my head. Can you help me do that? Okay? And you got to be there for it, and you got to listen to them and be patient and not tell you, Oh, I told you so.

 

Matt Cundill  30:45

Now more the mental approach with Todd Arkell,

 

Todd Arkell  30:49

my speech at my wedding, I made a comment, Dad, thanks for never telling me. I told you. So, even though I never took any of your advice, I love it perfect, exactly right? Because I recognize, like you've been telling me to all these things, yeah, you're right. You know that, what is that, that phrase, or that little saying, where they say, you know, when I was 18, I couldn't believe how dumb my father was, and at 23 I couldn't believe how much smarter he got. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it becomes that thing where they start to realize, I, you know. And I think that is a challenge with with kids, listen, I want to, I want to pivot to something that's I wanted. I've been saving this to ask you, I gotta, you know, I think about identity all the time. And I was, I was watching something, and they were talking about this study, and the study kind of talked about that back in the day, like, and you know, I have a little gray in my beard for those who are listening and not watching, and, you know, the experience. So when we did something back then, it wasn't recorded, it wasn't it was just it happened, and that was the experience and, and the idea was, is that was your dopamine hit, or that was your rush, or whatever you you know, we used to take bikes and go off ramps and try to jump things and do all kinds of crazy things like that that I kind of wish we filmed, because I don't know how I lived sometimes on some of the crazy stunts we tried to pull, but, you know, and then they kind of went on to say that today, it's almost like the dopamine hit comes from when you're sharing a video, where it's like you're not the thing like so You hit a big home run, and that feeling or that rush is not the same as when you might have the video of that and share it. And so the idea is, is that you become, you know, like your self worth becomes what other people are telling you. It is, as opposed to, I hit the home run. I'm exalted my teammates. Like, okay, that's great, and that, that part is there, but it's like, but you're maybe a little empty, or your identity is wrapped up in what other people think of you. Did I articulate that

 

Michael Huber  33:12

100% Yeah, I think I an identity is sort of like my, my current favorite topic. Because the more I do, the work that I do, and I take a lot of this from my own personal life experience, it's like, and I've done this work, you know, over time, is like, if I know who I am as a person, and what I value, what I prioritize, like, what I stand for, and what my intention is to show up in the world every day, when those external shocks happen, right? When I don't get a result I want it's gonna still hurt, but I can look at it and go, it's just a result, right? It's not completely in my control. Who am I? Did I show up the way I wanted to, and I just got a bad result, or did I not show up the way I wanted to? And the reason I got the bad result is because I was straying from who I want to be. That's a lot harder conversation to have with a 16 year old, because I think that a concept of understanding what they value at that point is is almost non existent, right? I start to talk about, I want to give you an example, right? I talk about this in the recruiting context with a lot of us athletes, right? Recruiting to go to college, and thinking about, where do you want to Who do you want to be? Where do you want to live? What's important to you, not just getting a scholarship or getting an offer? So you can post it on Instagram to say, I've got an offer that validates, you know, the fact that I'm an athlete, it's I have to live here for four years. I want to play for a coach that cares about me and values me developmentally, I want to be in a place where they value academics just as much as athletics. Those are all examples, but like, if I don't know who I want to be, I'll just get blown the wind will blow me wherever it takes me, right? Versus, I'm starting to understand what's important to me, and even if I go. And show up. Oh, for four, play. I go for four. I strike out in a big spot, or I get embarrassed on social media. Someone posts a clip of me failing. I'm like, Hey, I was in it. I was competing, I was tough. I just got beat that day. And it happens, and it happened to be captured on video. It's not defining of who I am. Unfortunately, we live our worlds virtually, in social media now, and the distinctions blurred, frankly, and we're just living in that world, and we're not doing that internal work of like, hey, what's important to me? Because when I ask an athlete, like, what do you value, or what are your strengths? Is another question that confuses the hell out of them, like, what are you good at? They just look at me like, I'm crazy, because they're so used to having people tell them, hey, everything's about deficiency. You need to get better at this. You need to do that. You need to do that. You should do this versus what are you good at? I don't know, but let's talk about it. Let's figure out what you're good at, so you can be like, Hey, I am good at this. So when something bad happens, I know, like, hey, that's just a thing, like you said, and not who I am. It's a hard process. It's not that's not a quick fix, that's a process of of growth and development that takes time, which by nature, a lot of us are just not willing to do, because it takes time and patience. I just want to get the fix. I want to get the feeling. I want to get the dopamine hit. That's hard.

 

Todd Arkell  36:23

No, I know, and I think it's just, I kind of look at it and go like, Oh, are we being wrapped up in external validation, and instead of internal validation? I mean, even you know, think about we talked off camera. You know about my podcast, and you know your podcast, you know, different things like, am I validating what I'm doing based on the number of people that view a video or or like it or send me atta boy pats on the back? I mean, personally, I've tried to take the approach that I'm driven by trying to find interesting guests and information for other people, right? So I'm kind of, I'm trying not to let anything external. It's nice when people say, Oh, I really love your show, or whatever. It's kind of cool. I think some people think, Oh, you got a podcast that's cute, like, because I think, you know, they only believe in these big, massive podcasts. But most of the big, massive podcasts, by the way, are like celebrities running them, and they're getting the eyeballs because people want to hear what the celebrity has to say. But, you know, so, yeah, it's, so it's, I think about it for myself. I think about it, you know, with the young athlete, even in his recruiting process, we could, you know, I'm actually starting to do a series for those listening about recruiting and the mental side of recruiting, because it's, you know, us being in it. It was, I laughed because I had a friend who kind of went through it. He goes, Oh, my God, it's so stressful. And I go, stressful. Like, what's so stressful? It's exciting, right? And then we I texted him when we kind of went through it all, and my son committed to a school and everything else, I go, all right, I get it. It was more stressful than I thought it was gonna be,

 

Michael Huber  38:10

yeah, but, but you that you raise a fantastic point about recruiting, right? It becomes stressful because there's an outcome that's deemed to be life changing. And so if that clock, that the metaphor right, the clock is ticking, is one that I talk about all the time, if this doesn't happen by this time, then it's going to be a fail. However, right? There's also a way of thinking about it, of like it's a process that I can really enjoy. It's exciting. I'm getting to do something that nobody else has the opportunity to do, or very few people, really, in reality, have the opportunity to do. Or if I don't get the offer from the school that I want, I can still stay on that path by going to a junior college or doing something that's maybe not mainstream or less less desirable, but I love the game so much that I'm willing to do whatever it takes. What is important to me, right? And if it's important enough to me, I'll go through the process with a smile on my face knowing that I get to do this. And if I don't get an offer from the school I want, I'll go find another path and keep going, because I'm resilient enough to do it. If I'm not, it doesn't make me a bad person. It just tells me informationally, that I'm not willing to give any more of my precious resources, my time and my energy and for parents money, to a process like maybe this is what I thought I wanted, and the acceptance that we did the best we could. We engaged in it, we did everything we could, and it's okay. That's a really hard mentality to get to, you know? And it is really stressful, no?

 

Todd Arkell  39:52

And I think it is because, going back to what you said earlier, kids at 17 years old don't fund. Mentally. I mean, hi, what do you want to do for the rest of your life? What are you going to take at university? You know, like, yeah, there's kids that go I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer. I want to be whatever right. My advice, you know, I've got four kids. My advice to the kids were, take something in college or university that interests you so that you will do well. And then, you know, chances are, most undergrad degrees require you to do something else if you want to have a career, right, like, or that undergrad degree was just to help you, you know, open up your mind and, you know, develop you to kind of go do something else, right? Like, so it doesn't have to be the be all and end all. And I'm kind of on the Gary Vee chain where, hey, you don't need to go to school if you don't think you need to go to school. I mean, like, if you, if you go, I want to, I want to open an ice cream shop. And I do this, and I'm so passionate about making ice cream, and you're 1718, years old, put $100,000 into the ice cream shop. Go for it. Go do it right, right? But kids don't have, I think the majority of kids don't necessarily have that, that understand, like, what? Geez, I wonder what I want to do. Like, yeah, I want to be a baseball player. I want to be a division one football player. I want to whatever it is.

 

Michael Huber  41:20

But I think part of that is generationally, right? If I am 50 years old, I was raised to, you want to get a good job, whatever that means, to earn enough income to live life, right? There are still parents who say you need to go to college in the hour, right, which that's the norm, right? Not necessarily trade school or be an entrepreneur, necessarily, but you need to go to school. You need to study something that's valuable in the world, get a job and make money, right? So that message is being communicated over 1617, 18 years, and that's what the young person starts to believe. And there's nothing wrong with it, right? We're all raised a certain way, and it gets passed down. But as I get older, I'm glad you mentioned Gary V I'm very, like skeptical of influencers in general. Maybe I'm just a contrarian and I just do it out of spite, but I have really started to pay attention to his message of, Hey, it's okay to fail. It's okay to fail to get to 40 and 50, like it's never too late to go out there and do what you want. Be a be afraid to take that be willing to take that chance. Like that is about identity too. I know what I am, who I am, what I want. I'm going to go do it, and if I fail, it doesn't define me. I'm going to keep going forward. I'm going to figure it out, right? So I want to go back to identity, like, from the start, from a performance perspective, right? One of the things that I've experienced, like, one of the things I do with athletes, right, an activity, would be, I draw a circle, I give them a circle and say, here's that pie chart. It's 100% break up that circle into the elements of your identity, and more often than not, 50% 60% 70 percent of that circle is athlete, right? So now you've got son, daughter, friend, student, whatever, as this, like little slivers, an athlete is the vast majority of that pie chart. And then they start to understand like I put so much value in athlete, I see myself as athlete over everything else exponentially. No wonder why I'm getting nervous, no wonder why I'm depressed, no wonder why I struggle. Because I don't put value on those other elements of my identity that make me a good person. I'm a good friend, I'm a good student, I'm a good son, right? Those things matter. And one thing I had someone say to me, I the first, one of the first kids I ever worked with, when I was doing my field work experience internships as a mental performance coach, was a kid who played high school baseball, who ultimately went to play on went on to play in the ACC right, at a big time school, and He now plays professional baseball in the minor leagues. And he said to me, when he was a freshman, he said to me, I had to find something else that I liked outside of baseball to balance it. Because if I just put all my eggs in baseball, he's like, I would have burned out. I would have crashed. He's like, I gotta find something else. And he knows he figured this out at 1718, years old. Like, Hey, I gotta figure this out. Because if you put all your eggs in that identity basket of sport, and it doesn't go the way you want it to, you're gonna hate yourself, you're gonna beat yourself up, you're gonna struggle versus, hey, this is just part of who I am. It's not all of who I am. And that's a really hard thing to do when you spend the vast majority of your non school hours as a teenager in sport.

 

Todd Arkell  44:48

That's yeah, absolutely regardless. I mean, people who are multi sport athletes and all those other things, is true. It's just non non stop. And I think we, I think we over schedule. Our kids too, in things, it's like, you know, I said, Oh, yeah, I can remember my parents used to take me to, like, soccer practice, drop me off and leave and whatever we had a and it was like one practice a week, and then, you know, you had in even I was playing at a high level, and it was like two practices a week, and now it's seven days a week. And you're like, whose business is this, that we should be doing it seven days a week? Oh, the person whose business it is to have you doing it seven days a week, right? So there's, there's a lot of that that goes on too. And I mean, you could say it's good and it's bad, or whatever it is, just where we were at. And I think it is good to at least give kids an understanding that you're not, you're not your sport. You know, I think that's a that's a big professional athlete problem, too, after they retire or injury ends it, or whatever, right? So it becomes something that they they have a hard time dealing with. But here's a question, what was, what's, what's a hard lesson you learned as a coach, and how did that change, how your you know your future, approach something, maybe that stood out for you, and then it changed, changed your work or how you approach things.

 

Michael Huber  46:15

That's a really good question, a hard lesson that I've learned as a coach. I'm sure there's plenty of them. I think, you know, I can't think of one that stands out, and maybe it will come to me. But I think for me, it's about understanding that my point of view is not, I'm not an expert, right? In the sense that, like, it's not like you have to listen to what I say. I have to listen to my clients. It's their life, right? And so there are going to be times where I say to people, you should try this, and if it doesn't work for them, then it's like, okay, I need to understand why it didn't work from that for them. And I think that that flexibility is really important, because it's about the person we've you've used the word trust a couple times along the way here to me, trust is about letting people figure stuff out for themselves and not taking it personally if they don't listen to what I say, right? My job is to guide. My job is to give suggestions. My job is to help them experiment, but if they don't like what I'm saying, I can't take it to heart. I've got to go. Maybe I missed something. It's got to be I got to put it on me. That's what I'm trying to do all the time. I'm trying to learn from my clients and be curious, versus being like, Oh, if you just do it my way, which I feel that too. Like, hey, if you just listen to me, this would be way easier. What? Life doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you got to get hit in the face before you figure out. We talked about that before. So for me, it's about that. It's like, you know, it's about them, it's not about me. And when I make it about me, I set an expectation that I'm going to be able to solve somebody's problem, when really all I can do is kind of point them in the right direction.

 

Todd Arkell  47:57

Yeah, it is about support, and every kid is different, and sometimes things work differently for obviously different people. And I think I've got an episode coming up where we talk about, you know, people's experiences. Everybody has a different experience, and then you know how that affects their role in the world, as an athlete, as a son, as a daughter as a mother, as if all that other stuff, right? So, and how you try to connect the dots on that? What are there any changes you like to see in the youth sports systems, like schools or, you know, clubs, and to see better create better support for mental performance, even mental health?

 

Michael Huber  48:38

Um, that's a really good question. I think, I think it's the biggest change I would love to see in a perfect world, if I had a magic wand, was kind of the European model, right, or the rest of the world's model with coaching certifications, right? The professional if we're going to professionalize coaching, let's make coaches be professional. Let's make them get the proper instruction, like they do overseas, where they have to go and get accreditation, right? Soccer is and USA Hockey, right? There may be only a sport or two, and I'm sure this in Canada, I'm sure this exists, right, where there's hockey coaches

 

Todd Arkell  49:15

or there's a national, yes, national coaching certification program for all

 

Michael Huber  49:18

sports, exactly, right? You want to be a coach, right? Obviously, there's a volunteer level, and that should be right, but when we get to a certain place, you've got to not only learn how to coach the X's and O's of a sport. Just because I played sports, I played a sport, doesn't make me a good coach. What makes me a good coach is the ability to communicate and understand young humans, teach them in the way that they like, to learn, empathize with them, all those things. That's the biggest hole for me. That's a really big fix, right? Because the way the US is set up politically, you know, geopolitically, right? We're broken into states, and every state has its own thing. We don't have a lot of federal oversight relative to the rest of the world. But I think that's the biggest hole. You know, just some love baseline level of instruction and accreditation that would give a coach that ability to go out and say, not only am I good at the sport and teaching the sport, but I'm good at teaching people. That's my big thing. I don't I love coaching, and I love coaches, and I know how hard their job is, so I try to tell kids this, like, your coach has a hard job. They have a family. Their lives are based on what they're doing for you, and they've got a lot of you to figure out. So this is not necessarily about you. So I'm, let me be clear about that, but I think there are also a lot of coaches out there. What I like to say are playing coach, right? I'm playing like, I'm out there, like, you know, drawing up plays, and I'm doing all this stuff, but I'm not actually coaching the person. That's what I want to see. I want to see that X's and O's expertise be married with. How do I apply that to Johnny or Mary or Susie in a way that works for them, versus, hey, I'm the coach and I just draw plays, or I just do strategies, I just do drills, and I don't know how to teach the person with ADHD or the person with anxiety or the person in a broken home or whatever, right? Dyslexia that comes up all the time. That's what I want to say.

 

Todd Arkell  51:12

Yeah, I have a circle back on the dyslexia, because I have a good story. But you know, in Canada with this NCCP thing, they've always had certification for hockey and for soccer, but they weren't doing other sports, and then they started doing baseball, and it's all kind of lumped in together, but it is mostly skill teaching, so to your point, right? And I even look at it like there, there are coaches then my son's baseball organization, who have played college baseball and been drafted as professionals that are not certified by NCCP. Like, they go, like, Oh, you have to go through the whole process. Like, it takes a long time to go you usually you start at a young age, like, with a young group of kids, and you go up levels, like, to teach it, to coach at the next level. You get certified by taking these courses. So it's not that arduous. Every couple, you know, couple of three courses in the offseason, every year, data, you do all that. But if, if you're fully capable on that front, they should be going tick. You're certified. But it's, it becomes almost like a cash grab, right? You go like, Oh, you just want my money, my $300 a course, and all these other things along the way. And so I do believe there's a VA like, I think it's valuable, but I think if somebody has a lot of experience in a sport, doesn't mean they're a good coach. I agree with that part, but it's like if, right now, the certification is more the x's and o's and the execution of how to run a practice and how to do this and how to do that. That's important too, which is important, but if you already know how to do all that stuff, right, why do you need a certification? You should check that box. But there has to be, I think there has to be another element to it. And I agree, like, how do you deal with kids? You know, sometimes some people innately know how to do things. I'll use an example of my own father. He tells me this story about this kid that he had playing hockey, and the dad came up to my dad, he was new to the team, and the dad came up to my dad, you know, I don't know, four or five games into the season, and said, hey, you know, I just, I wanted to know kind of what's going on with and we'll call him Billy. He's got dyslexia, and, you know, as a winger, he's always had a hard time. Which side should he be on? All these different things, right? It seems to affect his play. But I noticed that he's kind of like on the right side. My dad said, Well, yeah, he kind of was telling me that. So, you know, I basically had him kind of hold his hand up in front of him and, oh, this makes an L, that's, that's your left side, so the boards are on that side of you. You're on the left and whatever. And the dad was like, oh. And it was like, but, yeah, it was, like a simple thing, like, he, I think my dad, the guy, we explained it was, he was saying to the kid, like, what's going on here? You're not, yes, you're not here. And the kid was like, Well, I get confused because I'm dyslexic. And so my dad came up with this bizarre like, yes, simple. You look at your hands with your thumb out, for those who are listening, and it makes an L, and you go, Oh, that's the left,

 

Michael Huber  54:19

yes, right. And like, but that's the word that the thing, that concept that comes like, cuts through that as a curiosity, right? I want to understand what this kid is going through. Let me ask a question to figure it out so I can help him.

 

Todd Arkell  54:31

Instead of going, Hey, dummy, you're not doing that right.

 

Michael Huber  54:36

And I think you make a really great point, right? Like, there's two sides to every story, and it's you're right? Like, there are people who are really good and qualified to be coaches that make great coaches that you wouldn't ever need to certify, right? So, like, I think you can always argue both sides of the fence, right? So, like, finding a perfect system is never going to happen, right? But I think if we know again, I'll go back to the kind of. Beginning of the conversation. If we know what we value in coaches, right and what's important, we can start there. Because, listen, I think one of the my biases as a coach is, I think one of the things that tends to make me good at coaching athletes is I wasn't like an elite, superior athlete. I was good, but I had more failure than bad and so I'm able to see the world through the athletes eyes when they fail, because I did it. I played baseball from the time I was 25 till I was 40. I picked the game back up. I struggled mightily for years, until I got good at it again, because I had to learn how to play the game again. And I could take that experience and see the world through someone's eyes and be like, I know why this is hard. Sometimes, when you have an elite athlete who then go coaches, they have a really hard time understanding why you can't do the things that they could do. But that doesn't mean that that person can't be a good coach, as long as they adopt that point of view and say, hey, you know what? I don't necessarily get it because I never had that problem. But if I ask you the right question, I can start to understand it, and then I can help you, right? So, like, that's really complicated stuff. It's not easy, you know.

 

Todd Arkell  56:06

No, I know. I agree. I think if you're, if you're a good player, it doesn't necessarily make you a good coach, because often, you know, you often use the Gretzky analogy. Wasn't the best hockey coach, but was arguably the greatest hockey player to ever play the game. He just didn't know what he didn't know. He couldn't articulate. There were things in him, kinetically that he just knew it. Just did it, you know, and he talked about things his dad made him draw, follow the puck with a pen on a piece of paper while he's watching on TV. And did that get ingrained? You know? I'm actually shocked, because that story coming out that more people aren't doing that, right? You're going, Well, if that worked for him, I wonder if that, you know, it's kind of like the studying thing. If you write down your notes often, that commits it. You know, you know, same with you write down your goals. And so you go, why aren't more people getting their kids to watch hockey on TV and drawing on a piece of paper to follow the puck. And the reality was, it also allowed you to kind of look at the end, where's the puck the most. And that, I think, was what kind of

 

Michael Huber  57:12

patterns, patterns of things, right? Pattern recognition from a mental perspective, right? Pattern Recognition, right? We talked about this in a different context, right? When the same thing happens over and over and over again, you start to anticipate that it's going to happen because you've seen that pattern, and your brain goes, Okay, I know where it's going next. Might not be 100% accurate, but the odds are that it's going to be that way, right? So when you start to be able to anticipate, now you're like, Okay, I like you said you're going to skate to where the puck's going to go. He was practicing learning those patterns, and it helped him anticipate. I think it's a skill that is wildly under taught. Like my kids play soccer. I'm not a soccer player, but one of my biggest pet peeves is kids don't can't read the spin of the ball, or they can't anticipate where it's going to go. And I see it, maybe it's my point of view. I'm in the stands are on the field is harder, right? But I just feel like it's not coached very well, and so they're very much stood still, you know. And I think in that Gretzky example, why aren't kids sitting and watching hockey and writing, drawing where the puck's going? It's because they're on their phone, you know. I don't want to be the old man staring, you know, yelling at the cloud, but they would rather be watching a video on Instagram or Tiktok than sitting watching hockey and doing that Wayne Gretzky didn't have that option, right? So we have these competing interests. No, that can.

 

Todd Arkell  58:31

It goes again episode on phones, and it's just like, you know, I don't know, we let, we let Pandora out of the box, or we open Pandora's Box. Sorry, would it give the phones? And it's really hard to stuff all that. Get off. Tick tock. It's like, Get off. And I'm like, here I am going don't use social media as I post my video about on social media. I'm like, I know how hypocritical that is, yes, but it just is what

 

Michael Huber  58:56

it is. Yeah, you're aware of it, right? I'm the same way we talked about before. Like, I find myself comparing myself to other people on social media, and I'm like, I don't do this for likes, but I want them. For some reason, my brain wants them. All they want to do is help.

 

Todd Arkell  59:10

It's built in. It's built in. We're hard, you know, we're hardwired, I think, to get validation for sure, for sure.

 

Michael Huber  59:15

I say this to kids all the time, you're already working at a deficit. You're hard, hard wired to all the negative, all the hard stuff, all the bad stuff, and we've got to program it, deprogram it relatively we're working against the deficit. So you got to be willing to commit, to do that on a consistent basis. So you could start to ingrain some of those things to counteract that monkey mind, as some might call it, that lizard brain, to do it a little bit differently, because that's where we're going to go by biology. If we know that we're aware of it and it happens, the faster we can pull ourselves back to Hey, what's my identity? What's my intent? Well, okay, I'm going to be better than if I just let it sit there forever.

 

Todd Arkell  59:56

Yeah, no, I agree. I think, really, when I think about my. Performance. You know, at a base level, it's like giving people tools to untrain their internal programming, right? Just in that that kind of helps you, because it just gives you, gives you a different perspective, and maybe makes you a little bit more self reflective and less critical of yourself, for sure. So what's the best advice you ever received?

 

Michael Huber  1:00:24

I think from for me, the thing that always I am very big on is it's never too late, right? That idea that you can't do something because you're in a certain situation right now, you're a certain age, something's not going your way. It's never too late to do what you want to do if you're committed to doing it and it really you really mean something to you. And I think a lot of athletes feel like their career is over or they're not able to do something because of where they're at right now. They don't see the possibilities. They see the catastrophe.

 

Todd Arkell  1:01:00

Advice you give 13 year old you

 

Michael Huber  1:01:03

you're better than you think you are.

 

Todd Arkell  1:01:05

What's one book somebody could read right now that would help shift their perspective?

 

Michael Huber  1:01:10

I'm going to give you two. One is chop wood, carry water, which is a book that I love, and love it. Recommend it just like a fable about the process of greatness, how long it takes, and how you have to stick to chopping wood and carrying water every day, as opposed to, like, when do I get there? Right? That's the message. Ultimately. Love that book. The other one is, is, if you're into the Stoics, the obstacle is the way by Ryan Holiday, in terms of something comes in my way, rather than looking at it as the thing that's going to stop me. It's actually going to be the springboard to what I want to get to, because I'm going to have to figure out how to go through it to get to where I want to go.

 

Todd Arkell  1:01:53

Sounds like it might have been a chapter to a book on the Mandalorian. This is the way. This is the way for those of you who are sci fi people. Michael, thank you so much for this. This was like I could talk for hours and hours and hours with you. Super easy for those listening, you'll find how to get a hold of Michael, if you like his style, in the show notes and all those other fun things and on socials. Michael, thanks for joining. We'll talk to you soon. Todd, it was awesome. Thank you so much.

 

Matt Cundill  1:02:21

Thanks for listening, for more, including resources and more about the show. Go to the mental approach.com A production of the sound off media company. You.