JAR Audio: Stories Through Sound

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Roger Nairn and Jen moss are co founders of Jar audio, a Vancouver based podcast company creating award winning audio and video content for the world's leading brands. As you'll hear, they both have experience in radio and advertising. Today, I'm going to ask them how they evolved their audio knowledge into creating branded content for popular companies. We'll talk about the opportunities that branded content brings to organizations, and I'll get them to cough up a few tips and tricks about making the marketing stealth and how to achieve the results we all want in our shows. And by the way, just past the halfway mark of this show, you might be interested to know about a letter jar audio has penned to the Canadian Heritage Minister asking for allocation of funds to accelerate forces in Canada. And now Jen moss and Roger Nairn join me from jar audio headquarters in Vancouver.

Matt Cundill  1:06  
How'd you two meet? 

Roger Nairn  1:07  
Jen was working for a radio station called roundhouse radio, and at the time, I was doing some volunteer work with a men's organization called man talks, which sounds a lot doucheier than it was, and I used to do, I used to do the morning show at this radio station for every what couple of weeks, I guess, once a month, maybe. And Jen was the producer of the show, and our third partner at the time was the audio engineer, and so we met through, through that

Jen Moss  1:31  
w e met through radio. And I was just impressed that here was this guy that would consistently show up at six in the morning to go on live radio, fully prepared. And I was like, So when rodner had this idea of doing podcasting with brands, I was like, Yeah, you'll do because the work ethic is clearly there, passion is there for podcasting. So

Matt Cundill  1:53  
it seemed like a good bet. Why did roundhouse radio fail

Jen Moss  1:57  
podcast? That's an interesting question. You're full of them. Yeah, roundhouse radio was a really interesting small FM radio station. It was a new license, and I think it failed because the business model was incorrect and not of the times they were a private radio station with a community focus, hyper local, hyper local storytelling, small range. And so if you're like Toyota, you don't want to pay for an ad on a little station like that, because it won't go as far. And so they just didn't get, I don't think the advertising dollars they were hoping to get to really fund the station. And nor did they have access to all that lovely, sweet community funding that comes from true community radio, so they're just kind of splinched in the middle, and it didn't work, which was too bad there's a lot of talent and good storytelling there. I

Roger Nairn  2:50  
remember also the leadership team was quite reticent to embrace anything digital or even and then podcasts. Ironically, that guy started a podcast. He went on a copy jar and started his own podcast company. Podcast company. Yeah, it's fine.

Jen Moss  3:04  
Yeah, no. I mean, we take it as a move around. In the end, we take it as a compliment. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  3:10  
Roger, you got a background in in agency and agency work. And I think inside radio stations, we've always said, Oh, they just look at 2554 and then we'll buy the first three to five stations, and then that's really, right, you know,

Roger Nairn  3:24  
the end of No, not at all. I mean, the, you know, the reality is, is, I mean, I was lucky. I was lucky enough to work for some of the bigger agencies and and we weren't buying the media ourselves. We had partner, you know, media agencies that we would brief, and it was very much, you know, a serious brief that would be handed over, or we would sit in a room together and talk about the not only the the audience, but also the the objectives of the campaign. And I found that over time, the media became much more embracing of what the creative idea was going to be, and then they would find a way to make that come to life. Now, don't get me wrong there. The reason I left, actually the advertising is because things were getting very much down the road of programmatic and everything was just, you know, set it and forget it, let the computers do the work. And I found the creative was actually being sucked out of it all. But yeah, for the most part. You know, they took the brief to heart.

Matt Cundill  4:29  
What was your first podcast? Because I'm told from, I was actually told from Steve Pratt, you'll always remember your first

Roger Nairn  4:35  
Yeah. Well, for me, it was, it was a podcast called man talks. I was, yeah, I was volunteering with this, this nonprofit group. It was a men's sort of men's support group. Our whole mission was to make men better, fathers, husbands, sons, community members. And we did it sort of in these live talk formats in different cities. It was a playoff of. Ted Talks, which I had never understood. What the lawyers didn't come and at the time, I was really into podcasts, just on a personal level. And I said to the founder, let's, let's start a show. And it took off. Did very, very well for itself. It was just a simple chat show with interesting, interesting man. And I think it still exists today,

Jen Moss  5:21  
but I think so, yeah, and there's a community around it. It was a good example of how a podcast can be used to build a community around it and really have that kind of integrated relationship with an audience. Yeah, what was your first one? Jen, well, I come from radio, so I made a lot of documentary style audio work in my early career. So, like, things like I did a whole long, like, hour long feature about a cult leader on the coast of British Columbia called brother 12. It was things like that. A lot of community storytelling, things like that. And then in terms of podcasts that I discovered, the one that kind of blew my mind the most was definitely Radiolab, because I think if you work in audio storytelling, that show broke the mold. That show did really multi layered editing, theme based storytelling, their editing style was tied to their concepts of each episode. So if they were doing an episode about loops, they would edit the show with a series of repeating loops, things like that. It was just like very kind of form forward. And I really loved it.

Roger Nairn  6:33  
For me, it was I was the same one. It's same with me. And that was the first real, sort of like emotional connection I had with a host. And I love Chad, but, but Robert Kroll, which was my spirit animal.

Jen Moss  6:46  
You like the grumpy

Roger Nairn  6:47  
guy, yeah? But he was also very huge, like to me, he was kind of the most, like, curious, but also it felt like he was just like, he would fall in love with ideas and things and always love, yeah.

Jen Moss  7:01  
But he brought a good, sort of, sometimes skeptical to jads, like bright eyed thing. Yeah, they were a good match.

Jen Moss  7:08  
Now, which would be the JAD in our relationship? It depends on the day and the time of the month. I'm usually Robert though, okay, if you say so,

Matt Cundill  7:15  
when you first started making shows at char audio, did you know they were branded podcast,

Roger Nairn  7:20  
definitely, and we went into it completely with that in mind. I again, coming from the advertising world. I saw, I started to hear brands making shows, but I kept hearing that they weren't performing, not just from like a podcast perspective, but from an actual brand perspective. And that really bugged me, because I, you know, spending all this money and it's not seeing a return. And I know Jen when, you know, when we started talking about building the business, he saw it from the other side, which was that the brands weren't taking advantage of the storytelling opportunities. So,

Jen Moss  7:54  
right? Like, I didn't want to make shows that felt like advertorials. I don't see the point in doing that. Like, just take me out to pasture and, you know, have done with me if that's what's going to happen so, and I heard and saw a lot of brands kind of going down that road mistakenly right, thinking that they've got something to sell and they're going to talk about it on a podcast, right? And that's just such a poor idea for for building audience. And so I really thought that I, as a storyteller, I would have something to offer there. And I think also we,

Roger Nairn  8:29  
we didn't. We never really wanted to create our own podcasts as a company like we didn't. We didn't have any interest in our, you know, owning our own IP. We felt a lot more comfortable being paid for the work we're doing up front or and so yes, we knew exactly what we were getting ourselves into and that we were going to have, you know, brands underwrite the work we wanted to do with them. That

Jen Moss  8:53  
being said, we have a fairly broad definition of brand, and we also work with non profits. We've worked with Canadian Theater Company, like we'll work with all kinds of different quote, unquote brands who who come to us with budget and a dream,

Matt Cundill  9:09  
yeah, well, Jen, you touched on it. And that's how do you make a branded podcast sound like it doesn't belong on CK and W on Saturday afternoon as an advertorial type? Right piece of audio,

Jen Moss  9:21  
there's a few things we do a strong we have a strong process now that we've developed around this very question to interrogate the goals that the brand has for the podcast. Who are they trying to reach and why? What is it that they're trying to show about themselves? What aspect of themselves as a brand are they trying to get across? And usually it's sort of we have all kind of like deep values conversations so that we understand who the brand is, kind of from a values based perspective that gives us the general outline of the sandbox that we can play in. Yeah. Yeah, but what we try to avoid is, like, too many references to the brand, having all of the guests be from the brand. We will make a show sometimes where the host is from the brand, but only if that host brings something to the conversation, like an added value, like a subject area expert, or something like that, and we're very cautious around that, because it's a big turn off for many audience members. They would rather hear a more neutral character introducing the topics and things like that. So we we dance carefully around that, and a lot of it has to do with figuring out who is the target audience and what do they want? Do they want to hear from your brand? Because sometimes they might like, in the case of a podcast that we're making for the Wharton School right now, their thought leadership in the area of AI is second to none. So actually, if you're interested in the topic of AI, hearing from a bunch of Wharton professors is a bonus. That's not a turn off for the audience. But there are brands where it's like, oh, I don't know you make soup noodles or something, and it's like, I don't know that. We need to hear all your theories about soup noodles. Instead, let's talk about nourishing family recipes or something else, you know, that's adjacent, relevant to your brand, but more accessible to more people. So we, it's a, it's a, it's a process that, by which we figured that out. I mean our per our perfect result is for somebody to, you know, discover podcasts that's perfect for them, absolutely fall in love with it. Then ask themselves, like, who made this thing and it's, it's the soup noodle company? Yeah? Like, wow, that was a great story about my grandmother's migration from China, and how hard it was to start a new life, and how she nourished her family with, you know, beautiful cooking and like, oh, this company is behind that. That's interesting. That's the effect you want. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  11:55  
what happens when you know somebody like Wharton comes to you with this idea for a podcast between the two of you, you guys can, how do you divvy up the prep work and how long does it take to get it together before launch? Who does what over there?

Roger Nairn  12:11  
Well, jar, you know, jar is when we first started. It was us, just the three of us, when we first started. But, you know now, jar is a team of 20. It fluctuates depending on the different projects that we have on the go. So the intake side of it starts with what we call a project lead, whose job it is to essentially be the forward facing client representative. At the same time they're also the coordinator behind the scenes. So once they've had, you know, once they've been assigned that person, we then coordinate and start a custom workshop with our clients. Usually it's about three to four zoom sessions where we really dig deep into the brand, deep into the audience, deep into the challenge that we have, and we start to craft the show together with our clients. I won't go into the full details, but by the time we get to the point of launching the first couple episodes. It's usually about three months. Now, that can vary depending on a lot of different factors, as you can imagine, but it's usually about three months. I mean,

Jen Moss  13:13  
I think Roger you kind of are a bit sort of the pointy end of the spear, right? Like you're usually having those very early conversations, like where the brand is laying out, what are their ROI goals. And then I get sort of trotted out when it's time to expand on the idea a little bit figure out, put a little more concrete detail around what it could be and what an audience might want. And then we go from there. And what I do is I look for what is the project and who is best suited to make it, and then I from our sort of stable of people, I assemble the right team to go forward. So we have people that are kind of at this point, so I would say specialists in tech storytelling. We have others who have done a lot in the medical space, you know, and we have still others that are sort of in a bit more of a quirky humanities kind of space. And, yeah, so it just depends on the project we assign the talent accord rule,

Roger Nairn  14:09  
yeah. I mean, we're designed much like other creative agencies in, you know, except instead of designers and writers, we've got producers and, you know, audience growth specialists or producers and writers. We did divvy up the work dependent on availability, but also expertise.

Jen Moss  14:29  
I think sometimes my job is to

Roger Nairn  14:32  
really try to challenge that kind of corporate mentality of like we've got a thing to say, and we're going to say it, and here are the bullet points, right? Because that is so uninteresting to most audiences, it just doesn't work. And so somebody needs to kind of go in there and level with them sometimes, yeah, we get to be, you know, we get to be the, you know, the people that I hate using the word pushback, but we get the we get to they're hiring. For our expertise, and a lot of that involves us telling them to either get out of their own way or something's not going to work, and here's why. Or we've tried that before, doing, you know, with another client and it didn't work. Or we should try this because it does work, so much like hiring a creative agency, you know, in any other field, you're hiring that sort of subjectivity and expertise. Have

Matt Cundill  15:24  
you ever told the CEO that he can't host the show all the time?

Roger Nairn  15:29  
Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes a CEO, CEO can work, but 90% of the time it doesn't, and it's nothing against the CEO themselves. It's just naturally, they're going to talk a ton about the brand, but actually more so it's logistically, they're impossible to book, and their time becomes very, very difficult to manage, and it ends up throwing the entire production off the rails. And in our world, we, you know, we price and based on on time. And so for us to, you know, schedule out a six to eight month production and then have it go off the rails every, you know, few months,

Jen Moss  16:04  
every time the CEO has to fly to Davos or whatever, you know, like, this kind of thing becomes a problem. So a certain amount of that, you know, you gotta be flexible, but we've learned now, kind of the hard way, that there is a downside to having an internal high ranking executive hosts your show. There are upsides. I mean, the upside is you demonstrate your thought leadership. You have someone who you trust at the helm of your show that really knows your brand, blah, blah, blah. And there's

Roger Nairn  16:33  
also just some some brands, they have that sort of leadership, you know, the sort of the Mark Cuban type that are just very, very savvy on top of being, you know, the very media savvy on top of being, you know, in charge of the the entire company. And you would have no, no problem putting them as as the host the show. But those are few and far between.

Matt Cundill  16:56  
Roger you touched on this earlier, and that was the disappointment that a lot of brands had encountered when they tried to do it themselves, or they were off strategy. So when it comes to a branded podcast or the clients that you work with, what are the metrics that you're looking at to say this is gonna be successful for us? That's a great

Roger Nairn  17:14  
question. So for us, the number one metric that we look at is the engagement, so consumption, the way that the podcast industry has gone these days, there's a lot of different technology out there that can buy you a ton of downloads and get you a ton of reach. But behind the curtain, if you look at who's actually listening to those shows, it's not a real audience. It's not to say that there aren't real people, but there's not a real sticky audience behind it. It's, it's people listening for 30 seconds, whereas we aim for, you know, 85 90% of every episode being listened to by every audience member. So for us, it's engagement. It's, you know, at the end of the day, we want to be able to report back to our clients that each audience member is spending, on average, two hours a month listening to their podcast. Ie engaged with their brand. You know, of course, we then, you know, some we'll look at downloads as well. Again, we obviously want to have as high quality of a large audience, but I'd rather have 1000 high quality members than 10,000 you know, non quality members, or just non quality

Jen Moss  18:21  
audience. We kind of, I mean, we've really come to see reach and downloads as a byproduct of engagement, and that really you have to start with the matchmaking between who is your target audience, what do they need, and what kind of show can only you deliver to them. And I think if you can nail that equation, then the reach will come, at least. That's what we've seen. And it's slow. It does take seasons, right? It's not instant. It's a serialized form. You have to build an audience. It's a live thing. You have to talk to them. You can't just sort of hang out a sign and be like, Yeah, we did a podcast. Good luck, you know. Like, it's just, you know, you know, it takes

Roger Nairn  19:02  
work. But the other, the other metrics are going to vary, you know, depending on the client. So some of our clients look for, you know, increase in thought leadership, and that's obviously going to involve, you know, some sort of a survey, or, you know, an idea of, sort of, how much, how much people view, you know, you and the brand as understanding of this topic or that topic, or owning this topic that topic. We deal a lot in brand lift so we do Brand Lift studies with our clients through different third parties. We look at different qualitative metrics like comments and feedback and ratings. But we'll also run surveys with our audience members. We'll look at conversions. You know, it's not something that I would consider to be top of the list when it comes to, you know, a successful podcast, because, again, to Jen's point, that takes time. However, we are measuring those that have listened to the podcast and ended up on the website, or those that have listened to the podcast and ended up downloading a form, or, you know, entering their email address. Again, it's it's completely dependent on the on the client, and. The Business Challenge that they're coming to us with. The cool stuff though, I think, from a B to B perspective, is some of the firmographic data that we're able to pull these days, so we can tell our clients what companies are listening to their show the IP address, you know, it's connected to an organization of some sort. It then tells us who that is. It'll now, it'll never tell us the specific individual, but it will tell us, you know, what company so from you know, sales and marketing standpoint, to be able to say this prospect of yours has listened to the show is huge.

Matt Cundill  20:30  
What's your favorite survey question? And you know which one it is? Because when you get the survey, you go right to that question and look at

Roger Nairn  20:36  
that. I mean, I think the question is, you know,

Matt Cundill  20:40  
for me, when you're surveying audience

Roger Nairn  20:42  
too, that's a good question. I mean, if it's a if it's a brand lift study, then it's that question like, does this podcast make you feel better about the brand you know, or given some multiple choice options? But ultimately, we are looking for brand lifts, and then that seems to be the one that I gravitate towards. What did you have in mind? Well,

Matt Cundill  21:02  
how did you hear about the show? Yeah, is it good when you're doing just a rudimentary one, and, you know, we just, we just don't get a lot of feedback. It's true from our audience directly. And I'm thinking, when you do a survey, and maybe there's a little incentive in there for them to do it, whether it's an Amazon gift card or whatnot, you're going to get a little bit more of the truth. Perhaps I've always had this thing in radio. Don't ask radio listeners what they think in a radio station, because they're going to say there's too many commercials. The music is too hard, it's too soft, right? And if you listen to everything that they say, you're going to wind up with some sort of jazz fusion, nothing, with no DJs, no commercials and no money. So it happened around House Radio, exactly.

Roger Nairn  21:42  
Sorry. I hope that there no that's fine.

Matt Cundill  21:45  
Again, it's because the product is free. Somebody didn't pay for it, and so when somebody doesn't pay for it, they have a different sort of relationship. Yet I remember somebody called a radio station once, and I was, I think I was a little rude to them, and somebody reminded me they wanted to give you a little bit of feedback on something they're getting for nothing. You're they're connected to you. Yeah, you should. You should probably, you know, thank them and understand that you have some sort of you've created an emotional connection with them that they're happy to give you feedback on, like picking up the phone and calling the radio station. So

Jen Moss  22:18  
totally, I think incentivizing people to respond is, is not a bad idea. It's hard to get people to respond to those kinds of surveys, but there are companies that specialize in

Roger Nairn  22:28  
that. We've, we've, we've, we've tested doing some text, text, text surveys, but also just text relationship building with podcast listeners, which is which has worked out, yeah, they're asking for that added layer of communication with the host, and we've seen some success with that.

Matt Cundill  22:46  
Jen, at what point in your career did you realize that you had to put the audience first for everything that you do

Jen Moss  22:53  
early? Because my background is theater. So you if you don't put the audience first, you die and you die publicly, and you die on stage, and then, you know, you follow that up with live radio. It's a similar problem like it, you know, you really have to respect who you're talking to and what it is that they're going to respond to, what is timely, what is relevant, what is interesting, what is entertaining. And if you're not thinking about those things, if you're only thinking about yourself and what you have to say, I mean, there's a certain as an as an early creator, I think you realize that if you have something to say, chances are there are other people in the world who will resonate with it. So there's a certain amount of self expression as well. I'm not going to lie, but at a certain point, you realize that not every audience is the same, especially on the internet, and so you really need to kind of dig deep into those audience personas and think about, what is it that these people, what are their anxieties, what are their hang ups? What itch do they have that they need scratched? And how can you help them? And if you take that super generous approach, I think for me, it dawned on me, probably more in the podcasting space than it did even in radio. But radio, to a certain extent, because every show had its target audience, like the Sunday morning CBC crowd, is very different than the Late Night Music CBC crowd. They're totally different. People are listening to those two things, right? So in a way, I've always been trained to think along the lines of the specifics of the audience and to try to deliver something that they're going to like and respond to. Because especially in radio, they will tell you if they don't like it, you'll hear about it. CBC, they used to phone and they'd be like, You guys used a bird sound that didn't sound native to that region. You know, like those listeners would keep you honest. So I had good training. Thank you. CBC listeners

Roger Nairn  24:55  
just, can I add though, that when Jen and I first started the company, I remember Jen, I. You know, holding my feet to the fire over, you know, a decision. And essentially, what she said was, you know, not only is this a audience, first medium podcast, but we're also asking them to take a little bit of a leap of faith listening to a podcast by a brand. They're, you know, they're going in a little bit skeptical, right? Or a lot skeptical. And so we need to really deliver for them. And if you take advantage of that as a brand, if you give them crap for lack of better term, you know that's it's going to turn into a negative versus a positive.

Jen Moss  25:33  
Yeah, you have to respect, like, the sanctity of the headspace between people's ears, right? And and no matter whether it's branded or not branded podcasts, and I we could get into the definition of those things, I think they're becoming increasingly blurred personally, but the the pact that you make with the audience member, it's an individual person in podcasting, especially because it's not like it's cranked over a stereo and Lots of people are listening. It's one on one communication, and that's a sacred space. You got to respect that space

Matt Cundill  26:07  
massive, massive pressure to the people in charge of the trailer in episode one.

Jen Moss  26:12  
Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, right, a little bit. And you know what? We live in the real world. So I'm not going to stand here and claim that everything we make hits, what I think is the ultimate creative goal we are. We are dealing with multi stakeholder environments and trying to do storytelling in those spaces, and it's tricky, but just like in radio, where the executive producer of a show might tell you, I want this kind of story, but not that kind of story, right? It's the same in the branded space, only. It's not the executive producer of a show telling you that, it's the CMO telling you that. So then you've got to respect, okay, this kind of story jives with the brand. This kind of story maybe doesn't. I will sometimes challenge them, like we do a podcast for a mining company here in British Columbia. And before we took that job, we really looked into it, because I was like, I don't want to make a green washing podcast for a mining company. That's not what we do, or we don't want to do that. So we really, really kicked the tires on that one, and they, we were very satisfied that they and the scientists

Roger Nairn  27:26  
got pulled into the executive boardroom, and

Jen Moss  27:29  
we did, and we kind of said, look like nobody's going to trust this podcast coming from a mining company, because they wanted to talk about mining's role in green energy, which now is a very important Topic, critical minerals, right? This is all of that stuff, but we were talking about this kind of before the New York Times, like we were talking about this quite early. And I think I said to this mining company, if you acknowledge very directly that there's a trust problem in your industry with the general public because of some errors that mining companies, not yourselves, not necessarily excluded, but not exclusively. But lots of mining companies have made terrible mistakes, and there's been accidents, and there's been poison wells, and there's been all kinds of things. So if you're willing to acknowledge that trust problem, you're going to build trust with your audience right away by being direct with them. So they ended up the first episode of the second season. Roger was actually about the trust problem in the mining industry. It took us a season to kind of really get them there, but then they got there, and I, I'm really proud of the the stories that we told on that show. There's

Matt Cundill  28:34  
12 in a dozen. How many episodes in a season? What

Roger Nairn  28:37  
is a season? You know, we typically are in a in the dozen, 1010, to 12 range. But we have done, you know, typical marketer answer is that it depends. It depends on what the audience is expecting and needs. It depends on what's going to be right to tell a story that needs to be told. We've done a six part mini series. We've done a three part mini series. We've done 12 episodes, 10 episodes, 24 episodes in a season. I think a season is actually just as much for the production team than it is for the audience themselves. Because a season for us is is actually just a planning, if a planning exercise, because we're never going episode to episode to episode. We're always thinking five, six episodes down the road. And so for us, the season is the unit

Jen Moss  29:23  
of measurement, the guard, yeah, develop an idea over time. I mean, Roger, you've kind of touched on it, but I think part of part of the value of doing a podcast, especially if you are a brand, is that you're gonna get all this information about your audience, how long they listen, where they live, all of those things, right? So if you only do four episodes, you don't get that much information. You don't get as much and so much of the work goes into the concepting and figuring the whole thing out. What is it going to be honestly by the time you get into. Like the fourth episode, you kind of can just kind of tuck the whole thing into your belt and keep going, like you might as well make 10 at that point. And you've it gets smoother and smoother as you go. And of course, you can change and it can evolve. And we will usually take little breaks in between our seasons, not necessarily, but often. And sometimes we'll do, we'll rerun old episodes and things, just to keep the feed alive, you know. But

Roger Nairn  30:26  
even, like, just sorry, just to go back to you had made a comment earlier, Matt about, you know, puts a lot of pressure on the on the, you know, the the trailer in the first episode, which is, which is true. But I also like to say that, you know, as somebody who came from the advertising world, and this is more of like a 10 year old problem, but, you know, we used to create a TV commercial that would take three months to make, throw it on air, and if it didn't work, it didn't work, and we had to sit there and, you know, eat through two months of ad spend until we all just, you Know, collapsed and said, Well, that was terrible. That really didn't work. At least, you know, at least in the podcast space, we've got the flexibility. And I think that, like, not enough brand marketers out there understand that, and they, they fear that, you know, it's not gonna be brand safer this, and that the reality is, like, it's, it's actually one of the most flexible mediums because of the ability to, well, first of all, it's not live. The data helps to evolve the show. You know, Jen always likes to say it's, this is a living, breathing thing. You know, we're not setting it and forgetting it. And so I think we don't talk about that enough in our industry. Is of how, not only malleable, but just how flexible the production side of it can

Jen Moss  31:40  
be. Yeah, there's a lot of value in

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  31:42  
that. That's true. Transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the you may also like podcast, the show about people, places and things, follow the show on your favorite podcast app or at You may also like.net

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  31:58  
this podcast supports podcasting 2.0 so feel free to send us a boost if you are listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting two point org slash apps. That's podcasting two point org slash apps.

Matt Cundill  32:14  
So you're in Canada. I'm in Canada, and I think my favorite subject that really gets me going has been, you know, Bill C 10, which became Bill C 11, which became, you know, C 18, and then podcasts are going to be regulated or censored. I'm like, Well, how are they going to do that? And I don't think the people who are really making this legislation understand, you know, the complexities of RSS. And, you know, maybe they think the podcast is is in YouTube and whatnot. So what? What do we need to tell the people in charge about podcasting in Canada?

Jen Moss  32:48  
Okay, well, podcasting is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. It's a growing medium. There's, you know, billions of people listening to it. The last American election was won or lost, depending on your viewpoint, based on they called it the podcast election, because of the amount of sway that these big shows have over audience, right? And so when we talk about regulating in Canada, I think what we're really talking about is ensuring Canadian content. And there's some concerns about doing that in an unregulated space, or relatively unregulated space, like YouTube. But I think that, you know, the work that we do is very well, vetted, very well, fact checked, very brand safe, all of these things, no matter where it's appearing, whether it's an RSS feed or whether it's appearing on YouTube, right so it's all about, sort of, to me, it's about what is the content. And right now in Canada as a production agency, there is nowhere that we can go to get funding for shows and topics that are uniquely Canadian unless we go to brands. So we can go to RBC and make a really interesting show about the Canadian economy and its place in the world. We do. We make a show called disruptors, and that is funded by RBC now that definitely has a point of view, and it's quite a robust and informed point of view that show there are other points of view on the Canadian economy, though, that are not being represented because nobody is funding them. You can also look at things like First Nation stories. You can look at things like stories of recent immigrants, stories from the north, just stories that don't immediately scream, yeah. Brand wants to get behind this, right? And so I do think that we do need those kinds of balancing stories in the podcast ecosystem in Canada, and that historically, the only way we've ever gotten those kinds of stories told is through government funding. So you could say, well, they fund the CBC. That ought to be good enough. And that's great. CBC does some very good podcasts. They set a very high bar. They're fantastic, but they're like the podcasting equivalent of the company store right where all the script, everything, it's all coming through the CBC there's like, I can count on one hand the number of podcasts that the Canada Council has funded. The CMF does not fund podcasting, audio or visual. So everything is sort of pointing the Canadian podcasting industry into the arms of brands. And when we're talking about journalism, we need some balance to that, and that needs to be the government. So the podcast industry in Canada right now is collectively putting together an open letter that is going to ask the government to re examine this issue, especially now, when Canadians are getting their news and, you know, meta has cut them off and we can't share links and things, we really need to be balancing the conversation. But

Roger Nairn  35:59  
just on top, on top of that as well. I mean, it's also, it's also a job generator. It's, you know, it's, it's replacing what a lot of those radio jobs were. And there's a lot of incredibly talented people that have just shifted from, you know, radio to podcasts. There's a reason why the bells and the Telesis and the Rogers of the world have podcast teams and divisions. You know, they're they've embraced it as well. So this is to Jen's point, not going away, but even economically. It makes a ton of sense to continue to to fund it and fund good stories, but also just fund the fund innovation, the innovative side of it as

Jen Moss  36:35  
well. Yeah. So I think our initiative is going to be, it's going to include people from the traditional radio industry is going to include journalism schools that need somewhere for their students to go. Like we need to build out this industry. We've got the talent. We need to build the infrastructure, and we need to support it as a nation.

Matt Cundill  36:54  
Yeah. And so for anybody who doesn't understand or thinks, well, that really doesn't apply to me, I'm going to give a couple of examples, and these are my personal ones that I deal with every day. I have a podcast that we produce here called humans on rights. Humans on rights could probably use some funding of some sort, but the first choice for them is to go to a foundation or a corporate business in order to receive that funding. There's nothing available for them, you know, at the government level. Another example is the 905 or podcast which talks about politics in the 905 area of Toronto. If you're Canadian, the 905 is the region that's around, that's just outside of Toronto, that has a pretty big swing in elections and the outcome. So it's always worthy to talk about. They can't post their material on Facebook. However, Dean Lundell substack gets through meta just fine. And listen, I love Dean. Dean's fine. His sub stack is fine. But why does his sub sub stack get to be published on meta and this podcast be deemed some sort of news organization and news podcast, and can't be shared anywhere? So,

Jen Moss  38:00  
yeah, no, it is concerning. And I think too, like, those kinds of podcasts could use an advertising budget, right? And that that sort of thing, like, there is a reality in podcasting that's a little bit pay to play right now. And so if we're talking about independent or journalistically minded podcasts that are trying to offer perhaps a counter narrative, or a narrative that just sort of fills out the picture about who we really are as Canadians, then we need to fund those things, if we care about them, like that's that's the reality that we find ourselves in. We didn't invent it, but here we are.

Roger Nairn  38:39  
So if anybody wants to support our initiative and sign our letter, reach out to us at Hello at jar audio.com,

Jen Moss  38:47  
yeah. And we'll put a copy of the letter on the website too, so people can go there and click on it to sign their name if they want.

Matt Cundill  38:53  
Also. It's in the show notes of this episode. Perfect. Take me inside the company and tell me about some of the conversations you've had about how to incorporate video into an existing strategy, or maybe

Jen Moss  39:06  
a new podcast. When video first sort of reared its head in the podcasting space and started showing up as a topic on panels at Podcast Movement and stuff like that, we really took what I would call an audio first approach, and that's my background. I come from radio, and I love audio storytelling because I love how accessible it is, how on a relatively low budget, you can tell like an extremely robust story with all kinds of bells and whistles, and you can take people anywhere through sound in a nanosecond. And I just love, and I will always love that about audio storytelling. So that's sort of where my heart comes from and lies so so we, for a long time, we kind of, I would say, we were a bit suspicious. I wasn't really seeing a lot of strong examples of video podcasts. It was mostly talking head that looked like a recorded radio show. And it was like, well. Well, like sort of why bother? Because one of the things that I love about podcasting is the ability to Don headphones and go for a walk with my dog and learn something while I do it. Right? So until we started to experiment on our own with trying to work on ways to make video podcasts that embrace some of the potential of the visual medium. So some good lessons have come from the YouTube creators in terms of how to make your openings more dynamic, how to make strong and arresting thumbnails that get noticed in the sidebar. You know how to how to do good show notes that are broken down by chapter, so that it's more accessible and SEO friendly, like once we started kind of delving into this. And also, of course, these kinds of online platforms which allow multi camera editing, so you can show reaction shots and things like that. I mean, you can actually make it somewhat dynamic. And for those people, we understand that there's an entire generation. I mean, I teach creative writing for podcasting and New Media at the University of British Columbia, so I know that the 20 year olds are on YouTube all day long. If not Tiktok, it's one of the other so they're finding us. They're finding our shows on YouTube. So you need to be there. You got to be there. There's some really interesting stats, though, about engagement rates and consumption rates on YouTube. They're by and large the same content will be a lower consumption rate on YouTube than it is in audio, because once people commit to an audio show, they listen longer. They tend to listen. It's a commitment, whereas on YouTube, they've got the constant distractions and the little thumbnails down the side of the screen, you know? So, so, everything that we're doing right now as a company, we found some great video partners that we're working with to sort of expand our capabilities. And now I feel that we're very strong in this space, because we didn't really want to come out and do it and do it badly, right? So, so we've been playing around, we've been experimenting, and now we've kind of learned some really good lessons. There's a lot is possible, but I think you could still have to respect the nature of the medium. It is a casual, authentic chit chatting medium, very, very conversation based a lot of the time, not always, right, and so, so you just have to respect that you're not making Scorsese, you're not making a documentary, but there are things you can do to jazz it

Roger Nairn  42:30  
up, just add on, on sort of my side of the fence, from a, you know, from a business development standpoint, like Jen said, we didn't really jump into it head first. We just kind of took a bit of a wait and see and sort of approach, but I didn't have a lot of clients that would come to me, or I didn't have a lot of prospects that would come to us saying, I want video first, that actually held up to the scrutiny of like, why do you need video first? Because I would ask the question, why? And the answer nine times out of 10 was because it seems like that's the thing to do now, which is not, you know, it's understandable, but also it's not strategically sound. And so when we really sat down and chatted about it, you know, we asked the questions like, you know, who's your audience? Do you have? Do you have, you know, do you have other videos under your brand's umbrella on you like, Do you have a YouTube channel, and is it successful

Jen Moss  43:25  
if your target audience is CEOs, for example, or C suite executives, and I don't know those, those folks are listening to audio primarily while they're on the treadmill or commuting to work. They are not spending hours and hours and hours on rabbit holes,

Roger Nairn  43:41  
running through the running through the airport. And so, like, we would ask questions like that and and then, quite honestly, we would get into the budget side of it, which is a whole other, you know, ball of wax. In some cases, it was doubling the budget, you know, to not be able to confidently say that their audience is actually on YouTube and is really going to resonate with this. It didn't really hold water. So I think, you know, call it lock or call it just, you know, not allowing ourselves to take the TAKE THE BAIT quickly. I think we have done it the right way, which is a little bit of a wait and see approach. And also, to Jen's point, like it wasn't our it's not our first first love and experience. That's not where it comes from. So I think bringing the right partners and treating it like the you know, they're the professionals that just happen to be part of our team is has been the right approach. So far.

Jen Moss  44:35  
Every medium has its strengths, right? And so I, as a creative person refuse to just make something for the video medium that really feels like it's meant for the audio medium. Like I just I don't understand that you make different editing decisions for different reasons. So can you translate? Of course, you can back and forth, right? Like you said with your team. Shirt. I mean it for the algorithm, or whatever your video t shirt. I'm just here for the search. Yeah. Well, one thing that you can do, though, is you can do a really creative audio podcast, and then you can supplement with short form video content that goes out on Tiktok and YouTube and all that, if you record it through something like this medium that we're on now, have all of the abilities to do all of the above. So

Roger Nairn  45:24  
just add, just, I know, I know we've talked about this for a while now, but just to also add, you know, and I'm willing to have anybody correct me if I'm wrong, because I please tell me if I'm wrong, you're

Jen Moss  45:34  
wrong. No, just kidding, fair enough.

Roger Nairn  45:37  
No, I've, yeah, I've yet to see any data from YouTube, or from any other source that shows how much people are watching podcasts on YouTube. Clearly they're engaged with them. Clearly they're finding them, but how much are their eyeballs actually watching? Now that's a big deal to me, because if we have data that shows that they're also actually watching, then I can make an argument as to doubling the budget for, you know, for the production, because if we're not sure they're actually watching, then let's just put up a waveform on top of the audio and call it a day, and not have to spend barely any extra money if I'm, you know, if, if I'm a client. But if we have to now answer for, you know, for, for them watching the screen, then we really need to think about the video quality, and then we need to think about the story that we're telling. Because generally, I always say, like it's a slippery slope, like we can go from creating a podcast to making a documentary very, very fast, yeah, which it's a lot easier to do with audio. But if you start doing that in video, we're we're looking at million plus budgets and and months and months and months and months and months and and maybe, maybe an Emmy, maybe,

Jen Moss  46:47  
maybe, I think it kind of depends too, though, who, who you're, who you have on the show. If you know Jennifer Aniston wants to show up wearing like sweatpants and or pajamas or something, and make some scrambled eggs love on your podcast, on your video podcast, then there's a reason for people to watch that, because it's a behind the scenes look at a celebrity's life or something.

Roger Nairn  47:07  
Now, if she, if she came on and made a noodle soup, just imagine, there you go. There's a recipe.

Matt Cundill  47:15  
Well, Roger, you bring up a really, really good point, because this show that we're doing where the three of us are just talking, which will be repurposed in some manner for video, is going to be probably about five or six minutes longer than the edited and final experience, which is designed for audio. And if people are listening to this on YouTube, or if I were to upload the video to Spotify, they're now getting the audio from the video, which is not what I want them to listen to. So that's a very, very good point you

Jen Moss  47:42  
made. Yeah. So we tend to do a separate edit for all of our audio that we're translating, if we're doing, if we're doing a video first production, we also do an audio edit, which requires, you know, a bit more music to fill in some of the gaps where maybe in the video version, people were, I don't know, winking at each other or something. There was a moment of glances were exchanged or it made sense. Jen came up behind me with a knife. Yeah, I'm always you can see me on video, but you can't see the knife on, you know, through audio. So you have to just, you have to describe that those who are listening at home. Roger is extremely ridiculous looking.

Roger Nairn  48:18  
It's true, I look like a thumb. You

Matt Cundill  48:20  
guys have your own branded podcast. We do, yeah, how to get ahead in podcasting? We

Roger Nairn  48:25  
had a lot of fun. We have a lot of fun making it. I think we're about, we're about to go into the production of the next season, but, yeah, it's been a

Jen Moss  48:31  
lot of fun. That's, um, sort of half camp skit, half professional podcast, but it's we were just playing around with some of the ideas. And we have a lot of really bright, fun improvisers working for us, so we brought them into the studio and created this fictional branded podcast agency. Basically, it's a way for us to work out all our frustration through kind of comedic skits, but then we have real lessons at the end for how to do podcasting with brands.

Matt Cundill  49:00  
Well, it sounds like a lot of the things that you put up with, you know, the ideas that need to be sort of thrown in the garbage right away. No, this is wind up in the show, and, and, and you even asked, I think at one point you were asking for

Roger Nairn  49:13  
bad yeah, when we first launched, we asked everyone to give us a bad review, yeah. And we got

Jen Moss  49:18  
it. We got, we got some really good, bad reviews, yeah,

Roger Nairn  49:21  
yeah, it was really good. Yeah, you got to have fun

Jen Moss  49:24  
in this business, right? This is why we all got into it, and it's really important to remember that it is meant to be fun. So,

Unknown Speaker  49:32  
yes, yeah, we're all podcast

Matt Cundill  49:33  
listeners, and what is, what's an easy win for a podcaster right now that will just make their show better. That comes up in your head all the time as you're listening, like in

Jen Moss  49:44  
that, you mean, like an indie podcaster, or, yeah,

Matt Cundill  49:47  
any podcast you listen to, hey, this might be good. Oh, if only they had, well,

Jen Moss  49:52  
just sound quality. Okay, that's the number one thing. Like just you can it doesn't. Nothing else really matters. But if you're. Sound quality is terrible. People will not, will not listen to that over a sustained amount of time. You can have some bad sound for a short amount of time, but for a sustained amount of time, it's just a really bad idea. So do spend the time to think about the quality of

Roger Nairn  50:17  
your sound, I think, and I think, you know, my answer would be, do the do the extra work before the interview. Of you know, do your research and have a bit of a plan going into the conversation, because I think so much of it is a is a ramble cast these days, and I, even I listen, I'm not going to say the name of the show, but I listened to an interview recently where the host not only got the title of the guest wrong, he got the name of his book that He's launching wrong. He got, like, he just kept going. And I was clearly he didn't plan. And I just thought he just made for bad, bad experience. Yeah, you have a good list of questions ready to go. And that's, you know, yeah, you know, you're very, very, very prepared. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  50:56  
yeah. I do. I do my research. So I, you know, I actually was doing some reading. I mean, earlier on, I was and I was thinking about throwing this out for the question, but I just want to see if my memory is even Right. Was there a time when you guys did a study or found out or did some research into tech companies just not having a lot of branded podcasts, where you found a shortage of tech companies doing their branded

Roger Nairn  51:19  
podcasts? We definitely didn't do any research. But I, I myself, you know, being the business development guy, definitely started to notice a pattern of them doing podcasts very, very early, but very, very poorly. And they would, they would admit it themselves. And you can even look back at all the archives. You know, before I reach out to a brand, if I want to go directly to them, I'll often, you know, make sure, do they have a show already? Do they not? It's, it's quite surprising how many of them had them in, you know, 2013 to 2017 2018 and then just huge gaps. And you can just tell that they had a bad experience, or they had zero audience. And this is, this is the whole reason why we got in, or

Jen Moss  52:01  
some poor guy was doing it by himself off the side of his desk, and it got too hard, you know, that kind of thing. So

Roger Nairn  52:07  
and, or COVID hit, you know, yeah, people lost their job. Like, there's a lot of, you know, serious reasons why there's these gaps. But I think we, what we started to notice was just a real lack of, I mean, other than the work that Pacific content was doing, there was very little quality work being done in the tech space

Jen Moss  52:24  
in the early days when we started, yeah, yeah. Pacific content did do some very interesting work, though, like with Red Hat and people like that. Atlassian, yeah. I mean, I don't know if AI is on your list of things

Matt Cundill  52:36  
to talk about why it can just go through the podcast. You make Wharton school, you

Jen Moss  52:40  
can but in terms of research that we have done that's kind of interesting, we did do an interesting little informal study about AI podcasting, and we shared this at Podcast Movement. But I think it's worth talking about where, basically we gave an assignment to a producer to go and make an episode, like, write an episode, record it, make it, make it cool. Make it good. Yeah, we told her, this is the fictional client. This is the topic, go and make a podcast about the topic was slow travel, which is a thing. It was like an Airbnb style competitor, Airbnb company, sort of as an exercise. She so she went away. We didn't talk to her. She did her own personal writing, researching, digging out guests, and made a podcast. Then over here, we took our little internal sort of red team and decided to have them interrogate the process of making a podcast with AI. So we used at that time. It was a couple years ago, but every tool available to us to make a podcast with AI, and we were able to, sort of, in the end, it took some time because the tools, I mean, they've gotten a lot better since we're not delivering clean material, but we programmed in, like the guests and the voices, and had it generate the script and did all this and it, you know, eventually coughed up a somewhat cohesive script, and we produced it. We put it together right with music that was chosen by AI, etc, etc, created by AI. So then we took both of them and we ran them through a little test group of about, I think it was a, was it about 100 people, Roger, but yeah, it was honored. And without fail, I think there was one person who said they preferred the AI version, and she got the and she actually got the question wrong, and we think she misunderstood the question. Yeah, so, so I think that just that little test really showed that there is something about the connectivity of the human to human interaction that happens in podcasting. That is, you can fake it and you can fake it pretty well, but you're never it. People can feel the difference and the context in which something is made. So over here, we had a lovely personal story of someone. Travel in her youth, backpacking through Egypt. And over here, we had this weird, like, bullet, pointy, kind of choppy, what it's like, you know what, what travel is, and, and, yeah, like, let me put you all the reasons, three reasons to do it, yeah, yeah. It was like a listicle, yeah. And so, just like talking. And even if they had been kind of on the surface the same, I think the context of having a human being tell you a story that matters to her is always going to matter to an audience. So that is, that is a piece of interesting research that we did do that we're quite proud of. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  55:35  
is there any other further excitement on the AI front that you're excited inside your own personal business.

Roger Nairn  55:41  
I mean, I think we, we use it a ton, a ton, in a number of different areas and but mostly it's meant to augment the work that our team is doing. So, yeah, we'll use it for some research. We use it for, you know, editing, of course, from an operation standpoint, you know, we use it a ton. But I think, I think it's, it's, we very much have embraced it as a as a as a partner with us, versus something to fear. And we definitely see it getting better and better. But to Jen's point, this is,

Jen Moss  56:09  
you know, I often think about, you know, because we're in a unique position, because we, you know, we don't just make shows, we make them with brands. And so we need to think about it from like a, you know, like a branded content perspective. And you know, if anyone's ever read the the Edelman Trust Barometer, which is an annual report that Edelman, which is a big PR firm, puts out every year, pretty much all the major institutions are failing when it comes to building trust. Now, I always think to myself, like, is adding more AI into your content going to increase trust or decrease trust. And it, to me, it needs to just be we need to lean into the authentic, authenticity of it, but help, help it be made, but still lean into the authenticity of it. Because, just to Jen's point, you know, do you want to hear about, you know, the positive reasons to backpack through Egypt, or do you want to hear someone's personal experiences and stories? So we're not afraid, we're not afraid of it. Yeah. Or another way to put that would be like, if you're listening to a story about cancer, are you going to and you, on the one hand, here's a cancer survivor telling you their experience, and on the other hand, here's the same words, but spat at you by an AI. Which one is going to hit you more in the heart, right? And it's, it's obviously the person who's been through the experience. So yes, things like that, I think. But we we're also very aware of the problems around bias, the problems around hallucinations, the problems around accuracy. And because we work with brands, we need to be very, very, very careful about these things. Brand safety is incredible, like our whole reputation is based on we hire journalists to fact check, you know, and that's so you can use AI to brainstorm, but you better fact check, because if you assume that it's correct and it's not correct, you could cause a major problem. So yeah,

Matt Cundill  57:53  
there's a lot of commercial radio people who listen to this show. What did they need to know about producing audio in the podcast space that they need to unlearn from commercial radio. And I love this question, because I think I got the right two people answer

Jen Moss  58:06  
it. I can talk a little bit about just the form, format stuff, because terrestrial radio is usually time based. You know, podcasting has looser parameters around how long something needs to be. You have less of an obligation to constantly rebrand the show like you're listening to this, you're listening to this, you're listening to this, just in case you forgot, you're listening to this. You don't need to do that. So you don't need to tell someone that they're going to hear something, play the thing, and then tell them what they've just heard the way you do in live radio. So I think that those kinds of things are a big part of it. And then the other thing that you can embrace is around it's okay if your story isn't hitting the maximum number of people's funny buttons or whatever, because it because podcasting is there are a lot of niche audiences, so you might make a show that is specifically for people who renovate old bowler trailers, right? And that's your audience, and so you got to talk to those people, right? And so I think, I think it's, it's that's a bit of a shift from radio where you're really trying to kind of hit the middle ground a lot of the time in terms of who the audience is. Jen stole my answer. It was, sorry, man, that's okay. That's okay. That's right. Also, I was gonna say bowler trailers, but that's just weird.

Matt Cundill  59:29  
Did you guys know you'd made it as a company once there was a phishing scam for employment that had emerged?

Roger Nairn  59:35  
Yeah, you heard about that? You did do your research. One of, yeah, you did. That's one of honestly, that is, no, I applied. That's true, yeah? That is one of the that is one of the things that made us realize we made it. That was also a very eye opening experience, yeah, for those that don't know, we I started getting applications for not, not applications, but I started. Getting emails from people about this job, and we didn't have a job out there, and and when I dug into it and had a conversation with somebody, he said, not only you know, was there a job posting, but I actually interviewed with somebody from your company. And yeah, it turned out that it was a huge phishing scam. Essentially, it was all done online. They put somebody through an interview, and at the end of the interview they, I think the interview was done over chat, I believe it wasn't, you know, voice device. And there was a few podcast companies that were targeted, actually, yeah, and, but the end of it was, hey, we need you to get started right away. You've got the job. We got a job for you right away. We need you to buy some equipment in order to do the job. Can you just buy the equipment and then send us the receiver, send us your banking information, and then we'll deposit you the money right away. We got to do this anyways, you know, for your salary. So, and it was at that point that people realized, like, that doesn't seem right. And so the whole phishing scam was they were going to tap into their bank accounts and

Jen Moss  1:00:57  
nasty, nasty people out there.

Matt Cundill  1:01:00  
Yeah, yeah. I got an email last week from and it was from one of somebody who I worked for, somebody who works for me. And it was, hey, my banking information has changed. Send the money here instead. Ooh, that's a nasty one. And then I was like, Oh, okay. And I didn't even think of it twice. And then I asked on Slack. I said,

Roger Nairn  1:01:17  
this, you, yeah, the creepy ones for me now, or I'll get any I'll get a message on slack by like, one of our interns who, I mean, you know, I communicate with our interns all the time, but in this case, they got a text message from me, which I would never do. You know, we're mostly through slack, and I think she lives across the country and so, and the text was, hey, can you jump on a call with me right now? I need something urgent. And she was just like, feels really weird. And I guess, I guess part of it is they want to confirm that the phone number is actually connected to a person, so they wanted you to respond and but it just seemed really creepy and very personal. And I would never text I would never text you. Yes,

Jen Moss  1:01:58  
we're going down some very strange roads digitally and culturally right now, right? I

Matt Cundill  1:02:05  
just want to congratulate both of you on the success of Jar audio. It's a great Canadian story that's out there for branded podcast. I know for a fact right now that at least a half dozen people want to call you and reach out to you and make contact with you. And how do they do that? Yeah,

Roger Nairn  1:02:19  
go to jaraaudio.com check out the site. There's a contact us page, but also you can send it to Hello at jar audio.com and one of us will respond, promise. It'll probably be Roger, and if you're and if you're applying for the job or not hiring right now,

Jen Moss  1:02:34  
not right now, but at some point in the future, we would be in the future

Roger Nairn  1:02:38  
that is a phishing scam. Check our website. First,

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:02:41  
the sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan sirminsky, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com you