Jennifer Hollett & Amanda Cupido: The Walrus Acquires Lead Podcasting

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Amanda capito heads up lead podcasting. She's been on the show a few times, including when she was the Program Director at 640 in Toronto, and that time, she was putting together the sound wave Summit, a podcast event a few years back in Toronto. Jennifer Hollett is the executive director at the walrus now she's never been on the show, but given that she was a much music vj in the 2000s she should have been. Now, if you want to know about that part of her career, Jennifer was a guest on Erica M's reinvention of the VJ, and I've made that episode available to you on the episode page at sound off podcast.com and in our show notes. But let me tell you why they're here today. The Walrus has acquired lead podcasting, and this is a big deal. The Walrus has always been solid journalism. Lead podcasting knows how to make great podcasts together, and now Canada has another formidable podcast publisher, and on day one of the acquisition, both of them are here today to discuss why they came together. And now, Amanda capito from lead podcasting and Jennifer Hollett from the walrus join me from Toronto. Amanda, why have you done this?

Amanda Cupido  1:19  
This is actually a dream. I'm so excited to have done this. I think this is when people are building businesses. It really I guess it could only go one of three ways. You do it forever, till you stop working, you stop doing it, and close down, or you get acquired. And so I am so happy that the latter was the situation for me,

Matt Cundill  1:42  
Jennifer, the walrus has been around since 2003 Can you give us a quick history of the walrus?

Jennifer Hollett  1:50  
Sure, the walrus is probably best known for its print edition, and that's what we started out as a traditional magazine. We're known for our long form journalism, our ideas, we strive to be Canada's conversation. And I'll add in all its forms. I joined as the executive director in 2020 at the beginning of covid. And I come from a background in broadcast media, but as well as digital, I was working at Twitter, not x Twitter at the time as head of news and government partnerships and our retiring Executive Director, Shelly Ambrose, said, Actually, maybe covid lockdown is the perfect time for me to join because we were all working in digital overnight. We were all on Zoom. We were all using all the digital tools that were available to us. So as I came on, we started growing our digital presence, and that was everything from our events, which take place in person across the country, those moved online. It was, you know, taking the couple of podcasts we had done and really focusing on our growth when it comes to custom content in digital forms, including podcasting. And it's also growing our reach of the walrus.ca and in partnership with Apple news our newsletter. So this opportunity was right in line with what we've been working on and and ultimately, while we are still a big fan of the magazine format, if you will, the way people experience the walrus, it's wherever they are looking for conversation, for stories, for ideas, and podcasting is a very popular format for that, so it's just a natural fit.

Matt Cundill  3:30  
How many times a week does somebody say, Are you the person from much music?

Jennifer Hollett  3:34  
It still happens Funny enough, when I worked at much music, I had much funkier hair, so often people recognize my voice, which says a lot about the power of broadcast and now podcasts and that intimate relationship between the audience and a host. So yeah, often people will be trying to place it and they recognize the voice, because I look quite different from when I was at much in my early 20s, much music was a magical place, and I think, really transformative for not only those of us who got to work in the environment, but before I was a BJ, I grew up watching much music so I wouldn't be in media today and even doing things like this without much music in this country,

Matt Cundill  4:17  
is it safe to regard you as part of the Second wave or the second generation of much music personalities?

Jennifer Hollett  4:24  
You know, it's a good question. I grew up watching Erica M, so I'd say that's first wave. But I may be third wave, because sookian, who is a favorite of mine as well, was before me, and we didn't overlap. So I don't know if I'm third wave or but definitely the end of an era, because we don't really have DJs in the same way. And I think ultimately the popularity of much, or much music, as it was called before then, has been replaced by YouTube and in other formats. At one point, you think about it, Speaker's Corner was YouTube, and much music was Tiktok. It was just done in the spirit. Of you know, community television in the best possible way.

Matt Cundill  5:04  
And Amanda, when was the first time you got involved with the walrus and what was the first project you worked on with them?

Amanda Cupido  5:10  
Well, I think the first time that I was a fan of them dates back to me being a journalism student and always wanting to write for them. Actually, even though I didn't go into magazine journalism. I always found it to be an inspiration and a goal of mine to work with them, and I could have never guessed it would have been in this way. But I started formally working with them during the pandemic. Shortly after I launched my business in 2020 both the walrus lab and lead podcasting were sponsors of the Hot Docs podcast Festival, and I would, I think this would have been in 2021 and we were side by side as sponsors and had content up there. And that's what sparked a conversation with myself and the executive director of the walrus lab at the time, Mahira, and we started working with each other pretty quickly after that. And so one of the first shows we produced together was called bandwidth, and it was a podcast about the power of connectivity.

Matt Cundill  6:11  
Why is this a good fit for lead podcasting?

Amanda Cupido  6:15  
Well, first off, I have a background in journalism, as does most of my team, and so the appreciation of fact based journalistic storytelling is in our veins, in our DNA, and it's perfectly aligned with what the walrus is producing. So that always felt like a fit. So despite us doing branded podcasts with organizations, all of our podcasts are fact checked, which I would say is highly commendable, and not always the case with podcast production houses, not only in Canada, but in all English speaking markets. And I also think that a lot of our broader visions and goals are the same, connecting communities through audio storytelling was the mission that we worked by, and it's a very similar to what the walrus is trying to do, which is spark conversations and make fact based journalism accessible to everyone. And so there was just so much that was in simpatico, and the teams get along so like from not only a morals, values, outputs, but then also just personality wise, it just everything clicked from the beginning of working with them. So and Matt,

Jennifer Hollett  7:20  
I will add that, as you can imagine, I did a lot of reference calls, you know, as part of the due diligence work that comes with an acquisition. And one thing that came up time and time again, especially speaking to the clients of lead podcasting, was they really respected that journalistic eye that Amanda the team bring to the work that lead podcasting does. So yeah, the fact that we were already doing similar work, it made sense that we naturally would start working together on podcasts and then explore this larger conversation.

Matt Cundill  7:49  
Jennifer, can you talk a little bit about trust and trust in the media as it pertains to the walrus? When I think of the walrus, I think of something that's largely, you know, trusted, strong writers. We mentioned fact based, not dealing in alternative facts, which is really what the media landscape is full of these days. So talk about the trust factor at the walrus.

Jennifer Hollett  8:12  
It's no doubt a confusing time to be reading, listening, watching, sifting through media for the average person, I'm always very aware that the average person is busy. They have 123, jobs or no job, that are trying to get a job. And if I'm honest, right now I'm looking at my tabs. I think I probably have 30 tabs open. There's a lot of information coming at us, from our computer screens to our phone screens to even just walking down, down the street, there's just so much going on. I actually one of my favorite things to do is, I think we need a term beyond eavesdropping. I love seeing what people are doing on their phones when I'm in transit, what they're scrolling and they're taking in a lot of information. So I'll say trust is really important, especially for the walrus. As a news organization, we're also a registered charity, so I think that combination in the work that we've been doing for over two decades leads to our high trust rating from other journalists. That's why a lot of people want to work with us, but also from our audience and community of support, saying that we have partnered with proof strategies, and they do an annual trust rating, and I know that trust is down. Trust is down in media, trust is down in government, trust is down in faith based institutions, trust is down at large. So we do have to work really hard to not only do work that people will want to spend time with and then share and ultimately endorse, but explain how we do the work and what fact checking means. Not only are a lot of podcasts not fact checked, but a lot of journalism orgs don't have the resources anymore to fact check, maybe like they would have 10 years ago, 20 years ago. So for us as Canada's conversation, not only. Why do we have to make sure that we are telling and covering the most important stories of the day, but also explaining how that work is done? And I think that's why audience engagement is so important, and that's why I love talking about the work we do on podcasts, or responding to regular people emailing to the walrus with questions. I think it's by doing good work day in and day out, but also really answering questions and being part of curious conversations.

Matt Cundill  10:26  
So I regret that I have to explain this to people, because there's a generation of people who don't understand what fact checking truly is. If you give an interview to somebody who is writing up the walrus, somebody's going to follow up with a phone call and they're going to verify the things that are in the article. And they're going to ask you, did you say this? Is this true? Can you corroborate where this came from? That's what real fact checking involves. But today we see the fact checkers on CNN. There's some person who's randomly Googling something as quickly as possible. So this purchase of lead podcasting, to me, makes sense. And Amanda, you're going to speak to this, and that's trust in podcasting. Why is it that podcasting sort of leads the way when it comes to trust?

Amanda Cupido  11:11  
Well, Jennifer alluded to this earlier, that people really connect with the power of voice. We see this with podcasting. Listeners are building parasocial relationships with their podcast hosts. They are seen as one of the most trusted outlets right now. We already know this from the last US election, that most voters got their information and based their decision because of podcasts, and so we know that this was the case with radio podcasts being on demand, accessible and quite niche, leads to these highly devoted and engaged audiences. And so especially with audio only podcasts, which is most of what we're creating at lead and most of what walrus is creating as well, we could talk about videos separate. There is a discussion to be had there, but the audio only content that is being made is is quite powerful.

Jennifer Hollett  12:04  
I will say I have found as someone who's a big fan of podcasts, I think about when I'm listening to a podcast, it's often in these intimate moments of our lives, like I'll be making dinner or like winding down before I go to sleep, or in transit, like it's real quality time. So yeah, it does feel like you know the podcast host, hence the parasocial relationship, but it's, it's spending more time than you would with a post you would see on social media.

Matt Cundill  12:32  
So another aspect where I thought, Oh, this makes complete sense, has to do with the media landscape in Canada. And I don't mean to get political, but I'm going to get political, and we look at Bill C11, which has done damage to especially publications like The Walrus. But you know, any radio station, there's no relationship with meta anymore, because content involving news is no longer distributed through meta. It could be suppressed by Google if it wanted to. So did this make podcasting just more appealing for the walrus?

Jennifer Hollett  13:08  
It's a good question, I think, per any media organization, whether you are an established brand like the walrus, whether you're a media startup, whether you are like truly legacy media and trying to stay relevant, it requires Cirque du Soleil flexibility, because on one you know, on one hand, you know, on any given day, you have your strategy, you have your plan for the next three years, and then there's a new piece of legislation, or there is a snap provincial election or a snap federal election, and the funding models are always changing. And you know, right now, it's generative AI that's saying, Hold my beer. And we should really be talking about the AI news act and how quickly we're going to need legislation to ultimately support publishers. We've had a lot of clunky, awkward legislation that was designed to support publishers, but the end, I think, leaves the average person confused why they can't post or share news on Facebook and Instagram. And when you explain the online news act, they already fall asleep, because it's like, quite boring to explain legislation to the average person that just wants to share reliable news and information or something cool that they read with a friend. Then when we get into, you know, amendments to the Broadcasting Act, copyright, again, this is like a policy conversation. So I appreciate that the Government of Canada and around the world governments are trying to figure out, you know, how we can best level the playing field, I think for us at the walrus while we started as a magazine, and that print edition is still very popular format. Our largest audience is interested in finding us in the spaces where they like to spend their time. And for some people, that's going directly to the walrus.ca for some people that sub stack or Reddit. And for a lot of people, it is podcasting when I'm out and about talking to friends at. Parties or attending a conference. More often than not, someone says I was listening to a podcast, or I'll look at the link to the podcast, or you you have to hear this episode of like, insert their favorite podcast. And while the walrus has been doing a lot of work in that space, there is so much more room to grow, especially in partnership. I'm so excited to work with Amanda and the talented team at lead podcasting, but also to really develop our own Canadian podcasting culture and ecosystem. And that started earlier this year when Terry O'Reilly reached out to a lot of to say, Hey, can you put a maple leaf on your, you know, podcast image, so that audiences can deliberately listen Canadian, and we've done that. But I think often, if you look at the top 10 podcasts in any given category, they're usually American, and there's no reason they can't be Canadian. So lead podcasting and the walrus Podcast coming together under the walrus lab, I think that's a step forward. And listen all the questions right now are political questions. We're in highly political times.

Matt Cundill  16:04  
So when I think of podcasting, I try to get people to think about books and magazines, more magazines than anything, as opposed to radio. So I think a lot of people think, oh, podcasting and radio, it's a natural fit, and it's not, but it has more of a natural fit with magazines, just in the way it's distributed, the way it's cataloged, and the way it's promoted.

Jennifer Hollett  16:25  
It's interesting, I think, also in terms of a magazine, and I appreciate that your audience is of all ages, but if you were to pick up a magazine, there's a lot of long form conversation and storytelling, but there are also different features. So my guess is you're thinking of it as a podcast host and producer, where you have a structure to any given podcast you're working on, and some of it's going to be in conversation or might be narrative, but you also might have other little features. So you're building it out like a magazine format, and

Matt Cundill  16:58  
Amanda is only a few years removed from radio. Would you want to add to that?

Amanda Cupido  17:01  
Yeah, sure. I mean, when I'm doing workshops, I also caution people from comparing podcasting to radio, even from the listener perspective. Whereas on the radio, you're flipping through channels that's expected, you're tracking time spent listening, and if you in talk radio are getting eight minutes, that's a huge win. Whereas in a podcast, we are making episodes that are half an hour, 45 minutes, and we're looking at 6070, 80% completion rates. It's not the same thing at all. Look at that journey where someone's going to start an episode and likely finish it, whereas anybody tuning into any given host radio slot to listen to the whole thing uninterrupted till the end. Quite, quite rare. So there's definitely, I love the comparison to a magazine and comparing it to reading a feature article.

Matt Cundill  17:51  
I agree. And tell me about your team.

Amanda Cupido  17:55  
So the lead podcasting team is, I was saying this before we started recording. They're all superstars, and I mean it, there's no duds. You know, we've had to rearrange what kind of roles and what kind of people we needed to flush out the team. This has taken time. And to anyone who's built out a team from scratch, they will know the struggles with even just figuring out what roles to make, and especially in an industry that's evolving, and there's no roadmap for this. And so there are some folks who are on the team that have been with me since day one, and have, you know, rode the wave with me. There's also newer members of the team that we brought on in the last year and a half that have really helped us up our game in a way that's been incredible. So I just think right now, we have a stellar production team. We're able to work quite efficiently with such a lean team, but that's because everybody's pretty multifaceted, and I'm excited that the entire production team is coming over to the walrus, and they're quite excited too, so it's a good news story.

Matt Cundill  18:54  
I'll also

Jennifer Hollett  18:55  
add, I'm really excited to continue working with Amanda and her team, because we have already worked on some podcasts together, but we'll be working more closely, because lead podcasting will fall under the walrus lab, and the walrus lab is part of a very innovative business model we would not be around as the walrus in 2025 if we had that standard approach to doing business, which for magazines And a lot of legacy media was subscribers and advertising walrus became a registered charity in 2005 so two years in, and that has allowed us to welcome donations from regular people who believe in our work, as well as philanthropists and foundations. It's why all of our content is free and accessible to all at the walrus.ca that led to then us thinking of other ways that we could diversify our revenue, and it is custom content work. So the work we're doing with lead the branded podcast that will fall under the walrus lab. This is the part of the walrus team that does everything from the walrus talks to the Amazon, Canada person novel awards to podcasts to custom content. That runs on the walrus.ca in the print edition, and the profits from that work, that's what funds our independent journalism. So, like, that's the larger part of the story here is it's a larger media innovation and sustainability play. So I'm just really excited to work with the team. And Amanda's team, of course, there are podcast producers, but also her team works on social media and marketing and business development, and that's the part of podcasting that I think the average listener doesn't realize, which is, it's one thing just to make a podcast, but the other thing is to make a podcast where you can pay everyone who's involved and then get it out so it's discoverable. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  20:38  
So Amanda and I have had these conversations over the years like, how many people can you have on staff in order to make it profitable, sustainable, durable? And I think we landed somewhere between, it could be three, it could be four, it might even get to five. But the trouble with many podcasts is that they've got 789, and company like Spotify looks at it and says, Yeah, we don't need heavy weight anymore. We don't need this podcast. We're going to move it along. Yeah.

Amanda Cupido  21:07  
And I think the model that we've taken at lead podcasting is our teams are of Max three people per show, but knowing that those people are working on other shows as well, and a project manager who's keeping everyone to deadline and the first point of contact for the client and creating the work back schedule. And so this model has been great. This took a lot of trial and error. It started with me just doing everything end to end myself, and then slowly, you know, giving out pieces where it made sense, but in the end of the day, having people be able to jump in, and all our project managers are able to jump in at any step and do that work too. So I think that versatility has been really important, and something that we're seeing a lot in the Canadian market, but I will say not as much in the US market. US market much more linear with their role, and like everyone's doing a very specific, small piece, whereas I feel our teams are so collaborative, everybody is getting their hands dirty, and everybody could pick up where someone else left off, if somebody has to take a step back. We also have a bilingual team, which is huge, and I think that's been a struggle for a lot of Canadian production companies, because the French market is very insular. But luckily, we have some strong roots in Quebec and some brilliant bilingual producers who are able to be part of what we're creating. And it allows us to have this not just purely translated, different episodes, genuinely adapted and French, first content for those audiences, which is important for success in that region.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  22:38  
Sound design of the sound off podcast is inspired by mega tracks, the sound of entertainment, providing music and sound effects for radio podcasts and media professionals. Mega tracks is your one stop shop for library and custom tracks. Start your music search now at Mega tracks.com the sound off podcast with Matt Cundill.

Jennifer Hollett  23:03  
Now, Matt, because you brought up much music, I have to share this story. Nardwer, the human serviette, was recently in Toronto. And nardwar, I met while I was a much music vj, he's a contributor to much on demand. He has become probably one of the biggest Canadian content creators, but he's much bigger than Canada. People know him for his interviews with Tyler, The Creator Snoop Dogg and other music artists, and YouTube and Tiktok are very popular formats for him. All to say, I was helping him do a Q and A at his video vault in Toronto, and one of the things that he shares on stage is that he comes out of campus radio. I too come out of campus radio. And he was saying that when he was welcoming people and onboarding them at CITR, which is where he came, I think he still has a campus radio show there, that he would try to de program them from everything they learned at broadcast school. He'd say, you don't need a voice like this. Use your regular voice. And nerdware is known for his high pitch, expressive voice. And he would also say, guess what, you're doing all the jobs you're doing, the writing, you're doing, the recording, you're taking the calls. So I think in many ways, not only is podcasting magazine, but there's that spirit of campus radio, where you want the small teams, because it's just not sustainable to have a bunch of people, and that's a recipe for disaster, and ultimately laying people off you want to be really focused and play to your team's talent. And I think, like the modern day job for someone coming out of journalism school, and Amanda and I were just at Tmu the journalism awards because lead podcasting was recognizing young podcasters, the modern day job is someone who can do a bit of everything. Gone are the days where you'll only be an editor and only be a writer. And I know for some people, that's overwhelming, or they are missing the idea of magazines or journalism from the 80s and 90s, like they saw in the movies. For me, it's all about adaptability and generative AI is definitely changing and challenging. In the ways we traditionally work, but there will still be opportunities because we're the ones creating the content that the AI companies need, especially local, Canadian content. So I think it's having those different skill sets. And I think the best podcast teams, no one is just a producer. They are often a producer and doing business development, or they're doing business development, and they have ideas for marketing as well.

Matt Cundill  25:23  
So you touched on something that I have to tell a lot of broadcasters, and then if you want to go into podcasting, there's so much you need to unlearn before you can get into podcasting. And so anybody who comes into podcasting without any experience is actually ahead of a broadcaster, because you do come in with a lot of really bad habits that it just takes time to unlearn it.

Jennifer Hollett  25:43  
What are some of the top ones? I'm curious. What would you say for bad

Matt Cundill  25:46  
habits, time and temperature, talking about what we had for breakfast. You know, I know broadcasters are good at getting to the point, but there's generally some really bad intros sometimes to get in there, I think not understanding that your content is evergreen is the biggest hurdle, because so often it's got to be Now, now, now. And how soon is the content that you're talking about in this podcast going to be stale, dated? You really want to think about creating evergreen content when you do podcasting, and often they don't.

Jennifer Hollett  26:19  
Well, that's where it does come back to the magazine idea. So the stories that we posted the walrus.ca are timely, but the goal is that someone could read them in a year, in 10 years. And again, this is why it becomes very relevant and of interest to AI companies, right? Ultimately, because people are going to be coming to chat bots, they already are asking questions. And I also think with podcasts, when we get it right, it's something like much bigger than a message for a guest, right? You're actually exploring something that pushes us all right, to think out loud together,

Matt Cundill  26:53  
and even something as simple as voice, you know, talking and creating a headphone experience, as opposed to a speaker experience in the car. I do think the radio people, they talk at you, and podcasters talk to you. I know it's only day one, but let's have the video talk. What is the video strategy going forward?

Amanda Cupido  27:11  
Well, I'll just say what the State of the Union has been with clients that lead podcasting. So we started as an audio only podcast production house, and actually, up until just this year, we were 90 95% audio only. I would say we were very responsive on the video front. We didn't want to start pushing it unless our clients were asking for it. We always would have the conversation around the strategy around it, but we have so many recurring clients, and all of them had built it around an audio strategy. And if we were incorporating video, what we started doing was incorporating one, you know, social clip video or one flagship conversation that we really wanted to point to. So we were easing into it. So we do have some hybrid podcasts that are audio and certain episodes are video by strategy, but we do have two quite large video podcasts that we'll be launching within the next year, and one of them will be and I'll give a little hint behind the scenes. It's the Toronto metropolitan university podcast, which is called the forefront. It's in its sixth season, and we are now flipping to video, which is an exciting change, and we're keen to see what that's like. And they're open to it too, to say, let's compare the results to our audio only, and also look at the extra time energy and producers that are needed to do a video version, and then decide, is that going to be our strategy moving forward, or are we going to go back? So there's a lot of like, toe dipping right now, which I think is smart, but reality is, when we're doing narrative podcasts, which is a lot of what the highly journalistic podcasts that we're doing, those just don't translate to video. Those are so strong because they're audio only. So there's always going to be this piece that is audio only, and that's tied to those shows that are formatted that way. And then when we come to more of our chat cast, and so that forefront is an example that was a narrative podcast. Narrative podcast that's now flipping to a chat format in order to play to that video audience. And now we're going to see so that's going to be really good anecdotal experiment for us to track. But I like to be driven by numbers. What are we seeing? Are we achieving the results? And then let's do something strategic, not just because of a trend, not just because someone on your team says that would be fun, you know? Like, let's take a strategic approach to all of this and make sure we're gonna get

Jennifer Hollett  29:26  
what we want out of it. Yeah, and I think working with partners in branded podcasts, it's really important in the client work, because that's ultimately what this is, right lead podcasting is known for their client work, and branded podcasts, that's what we've been doing with the walrus lab. It's making sure the client's goals are very clear, like, what is it that they are going to determine success with? What are the metrics that are important to them? And it could be different depending on on the client. So if someone wants to experiment in video, because they've read our articles, they realize they need a presence on YouTube that will. Change the podcast and the resources available, I think, often people forget how the check costs to make a podcast that can reach people and is of high quality, and, you know, has a path to more than one one season. We are big on pilots of the walrus, so trying things, testing them out, and we have been doing more and more work on on Tiktok. All of our events are on YouTube, and something we've been interested in is what would it look like taking a podcast, even just with like, a simple presence on YouTube for the purposes of search, because, as we know, there are so many YouTube videos. They're really just audio with an image or audio with, like a moving graphic. So even some kind of, like entry level opportunities for video podcasting, but so excited to be working with the podcast that Amanda mentioned, because lead podcasts are now the walrus podcast. And ultimately, I think there are a lot of people who remember, wasn't long ago, about eight years ago where all the media orgs were told to move to video, and that didn't last long. So I think it's about being really focused and it being part of a larger strategy. And it is for lead, it is for the walrus. And the question is, is it for the clients that we work with?

Matt Cundill  31:14  
And Amanda? How do we judge the effectiveness of a podcast? Because it's maybe downloads, but it's probably well beyond that. Well, I

Amanda Cupido  31:21  
mean, there's lots of buzz around this, especially with Dan Meisner and bumper team, which the walrus has also worked with in collaboration with lead podcasting, and so I can't reiterate what he says more, which is that, of course, it's not just downloads. What we try to do when we begin working with a client is setting success metrics and saying, Sure, we're going to have downloads. But what else are we tracking? And what we start with is, after somebody listens, what would you like them to do? We talk about the UX design. What about the LX, the listener experience, right? So they listen now? What? And if they want to, if the call to action at the end of that episode is to go sign up for your newsletter. Then we're actually tracking newsletter signups, and that's going to be one of our success metrics. And even better, if we could have a unique URL where people are signing up for the newsletter, so we could track how many actually came from the podcast to then go sign up for the newsletter, building a really thoughtful landing page for your podcast, a URL that is not just replaying all the episodes. If you're pointing to a website, don't just serve up what people just engaged with. Give them something new more. What do you want at the front banner of that page? So building those sorts of things out and tracking where did they click? What did they do next? This is a really important part of our success metrics. So we build that in from the beginning. And I think sometimes clients need that prompt to think about, what are we actually trying to accomplish here? And as Jennifer was saying, then we are going to come alongside them and build something that makes sense to accomplish that goal. And sometimes you'll have to think creatively even of, how are you putting together the entire show to lead up to this one moment, which is the call to action, to really hope that people take that step and do it. And so one other little quick tip for listeners who are thinking about this for themselves that I'll share is that at the end of podcasts, oh my gosh, we're always saying, please share with a friend, like and subscribe. You know, it's the same verbiage. And so what we try to do at the walrus now is be real about it. Don't just say the same lingo over and over again. Join the conversation. Ugh. I am so over that. Let's try to make it how would you tell your friend to listen to this? And let's get our host to say that at the end exactly the way you would say it in a real conversation. And people don't tune it out, and they actually are more likely to take that step.

Jennifer Hollett  33:42  
I'll add one of the things I often say to friends of mine who know I've spent my career working in media and all its evolving formats, and that I'm the executive director of the walrus. They'll say, like, I don't like org. We're thinking of creating a podcast, and someone on the team's cousin can do it for us. What do you think? And I'll say, well, first of all, why are you doing a podcast? Why are you doing it? And then, second of all, do you want a podcast to engage your current audience? Because if it's just to engage the current audience, followers, donors, especially if you're a nonprofit, then yeah, maybe that person's cousin is great. Like, if it's a tool, and you just want, like, a quick and dirty way, and that might be enough, but if you want a new audience, then you really have to have something that's worth someone's time, and also, because the walrus has an audience, this is where this partnership with lead is. Not only do we have the best of the best in terms of podcast production and marketing, but we have an audience of people who are interested in Canada's conversation, in storytelling, in ideas, in this very thing. So I always encourage people like, Who exactly do you want listening to your podcast? Are they already in your universe? Are you inviting them in and then to Amanda's a point? If they make it to the end of the episode, what do you want them to do?

Matt Cundill  34:59  
Yeah? Yeah, that's a great point, by the way, we did mention Dan Meisner, and Dan Meisner does have campus radio experience, ckdu, Dalhousie

Amanda Cupido  35:09  
and me, C Kln at Toronto metropolitan university, my first radio show.

Jennifer Hollett  35:14  
And for me, Cirrus G which was Concordia University, some radio station back in the day. I started as a DJ, and then I became program director, then station manager. I couldn't get enough.

Matt Cundill  35:26  
I was at the now defunct CK IC at Acadia University. Is there room? By the way? No pressure. I'm not here to jam you with things to do. But when you look at the podcast landscape in Canada, do you think, or is it possible that there's room for one more daily news show.

Jennifer Hollett  35:43  
I'll start by saying we have lost so many jobs in journalism. We've seen the thinning out of news media, ongoing layoffs, bankruptcies. If you take a look at any newsroom, it is a fraction of the size that it used to be so I welcome any entry into reliable journalism in a variety of format. So that's where I say yes, just because I think that we need to engage Canadians with Canadian storytelling that they can trust and in the news format. It's not just a chat cast, but it's usually hosted by journalists, and there's a news producer involved. So I think there is more room saying that I'm curious what Amanda has to say, because I know something that a lot of regular people struggle with is where to find podcasts. And you know, when you just want to listen to something, you're kind of like, where do you begin? And it can be tough to really make it on the charts.

Amanda Cupido  36:40  
So I think it depends who's asking. That's what I was gonna say. Do we need somebody in their basement trying to put the load of a daily podcast on their shoulders and make it successful in Canada? Probably not. That's not where I'd recommend a newscaster to begin. I think local is being lost in journalism. So if we were going to have some sort of news podcast with local angle that is not coming from a media conglomerate, I think there is definitely space for that. I also think because we do have a lot of Canadian news podcasts, but there aren't a lot that are dedicated provincially, even like provincial news podcasts. And does it have to be daily? No, if I was recommending for someone to just get started, you could start with something like a weekly. There's a really popular one out in Alberta called the sprawl cast, and the guy behind it is self funded and making it work like that appetite is there, but that is not widespread across Canada. So I would say there could be potentially a room for daily, definitely, room for local on somewhat of a regular basis. And I would recommend to start at a pace that you could stick with consistently and then slowly work up to potentially a daily. Now, if you're asking me, could a radio station do a daily 100% yes, but that needs a reconfiguring of resources, and I don't know if anyone in any radio stations in Canada are actually willing to do it.

Matt Cundill  38:10  
Jennifer, what are you looking forward to with podcasting at the walrus?

Jennifer Hollett  38:13  
I would say having the expertise that Amanda capito and her team bring, I think we do a lot at the walrus and a bunch of different formats, and that has been part of our strategic plan and how we've been growing. But just to bring this team in house and to work with them, I've had the advantage of working closely with Amanda and her team over the last few months getting this deal together, but I know there are a lot of other people who are excited to meet Amanda and her team of producers, and to not only continue the work that leads been doing, but also to see, you know, what new conversations and podcasts we can build together, and then take a look at what comes next. And I think that's what excites me about the podcasting medium, is it's always evolving. And not only am I a fan, but I'm someone who gets to work in this business now, in a

Matt Cundill  39:01  
bigger way, same question to Amanda.

Amanda Cupido  39:05  
I mean, this is a dream come true for me. Honestly, I couldn't think of a better home for lead podcasting, and I'm so excited, if it wasn't clear, to be staying on, and so I am going to be working as the executive advisor of podcasts. And that's also a dream Title I which I think I invented, and the walrus accepted it. So I'm really lucky to be able to now be focusing on growth, talent, coaching, strategy, and letting the team really do their thing with production, and not being so much into the operations and daily grind of the production house, and so I'm really excited about the opportunities that that's going to bring for me, and this next chapter of my career is also going to allow me to have some space to continue to do things around my books. Let's talk podcasting and let's talk podcasting for kids, and continue to teach both at Seneca and Toronto Metropolitan University, which I also think is like, that's such a win. Win, because not only am I helping the next generation of audio storytellers, but then I also so many of the people on the team were my former students, so I also get to help recruit the best of the best. So yeah, that's what that's what's going to be looking like for me personally. And yeah, there's just a lot of buzz and excitement around all of this, I think, from both sides. Well, the only

Matt Cundill  40:19  
lie told here today was when I said it would be about 15 minutes this 15 minutes this interview.

Jennifer Hollett  40:25  
There's just so much to say. We're podcasters. Let us talk. We beg

Matt Cundill  40:33  
Congratulations to you both on this and look forward to everything coming out of the walrus podcast wise and more.

Amanda Cupido  40:39  
Thank you, 

Jennifer Hollett  40:40  
Matt, thanks. 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  40:41  
The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aidan Glassey, another great creation from the sound off media company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com. You