Julian on the Radio

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Today, I'm joined by Julian Nia, aka Julian on the radio. His career has taken him from the DMV to Chicago, Seattle, Las Vegas and some of the most competitive radio markets in North America. Julian is one of those broadcasters who didn't just grow up loving radio. He lived it from interning board opping, running street stunts to building high impact night and morning shows. His story is a reminder that high touch in radio still matters a lot. Julian and I talked about the magic of 90s radio MTV. We both lived and breathed radio in that era, so forgive us for geeking out a little bit. We talk a lot about the value of curiosity and empathy on the air, and why connection and not just content, is the real superpower behind radio's draw. We also dig into the harder truths, like career and stability identity outside the studio, and the changing role of social media and why today's radio talent has to be more than just good on the mic. This is an honest and wide ranging conversation about creativity, risk and what it takes to build a lasting career in audio and now Julian Neha joins me from Las Vegas. When did you know you wanted to be in radio?

Julian Nieh  1:28  
When I was a young kid in college, I got a chance to intern for a station that is no longer Bonneville, Z 104 in Washington, DC. So you know, very typical radio story, you kind of fell into it, fell in love with it. But, you know, the caveat is that I actually never even thought about it, you know, I wanted to be a MTV VJ. Remember the 90s. I wanted to be like, you know, Eric knees and, you know, all these MTV VJs downtown, Julie Brown, but I just never packed my bags. I just never did it, and that's my fault. Anyway, I interned at a radio station, Z 104, and fell in love with it. Started working all the departments, from promotions. At one point I was account executive, and I started interning for the evening jock to the time, Matthew blades, who I still talk to to this day. He's great, great, great human. And I did all his street stunts. You know, lot of cute street stunts. Answered his phones when people used to call radio stations and people use the phone and use the phone and, you know, just kind of fell in love with it. I was that guy. I was a kid that was just there all the time because I loved it. And one day, the board op didn't show up for whatever reason. And guess who was there? I was there and I got to run the board and do some part time shifts. And that's just kind of the the initial start. That's a very old

Matt Cundill  2:38  
lesson about radios just being around and being there, because you never know what job you're going to want. What job you're going to wind

Julian Nieh  2:44  
up doing next. It is, it's always the What If. And it's, I mean, I'm still living in that situation. What if, to be transparent, you know, from out of work, what if someone calls What if someone doesn't? It's exciting, but it's also, like, really scary. You know, it's really, it can be really, really nerve wracking, to be honest with you. But yeah, you're absolutely right. A lot of it's just like, who can be trusted, who's there, who's reliable. That's what a lot of what radio's match has been so and

Matt Cundill  3:11  
growing up in the 90s, what was the favorite stuff you like to listen to or watch on MTV,

Julian Nieh  3:17  
as it were? Oh gosh, I just remember the VJs. I forgot that actual programming when they would introduce, like, new music. I forgot it. Well, this

Matt Cundill  3:26  
channel doesn't even exist anymore.

Julian Nieh  3:28  
It doesn't, I know, but I remember I was a 90s Hip Hop kid. I listen to all music, man, but 90s Hip Hop kid I love like, Tribe Called Quest and like Dell the funky homo sapien, fouchniggins, all that type of stuff, Wu Tang, but I also love the pop music. I love. Do you remember Mandy Moore? Yes, oh God, we did a concert with Mandy Moore. I was starstruck. Man. I loved all that stuff. Old Town, you know, all the 90s bands, when they were singing about love and romance and all that stuff. I just loved it. I fell in love with that time and radio was not to sound cliche, but it was special, man.

Matt Cundill  4:05  
It was, well, and that's why I mentioned especially in the 90s. I mean, it was the last of two eras for music. It was, you know, pre Napster. So, you know, the best music was on the radio, and it was really sort of the tail end. And the last gas for MTV actually putting videos first on on the TV. After that, it became real world, and some other stuff

Julian Nieh  4:26  
real world. I love that show. I just remember how it made me feel, you know, how these songs from O town of batch boys and like 98 degrees would make me feel, you know, it made me feel a certain way. And I still chase that man, you know, I still chase that. I think we're a lot of us are still chasing that feeling. It's just in different meanings. Different mediums. Now, you know what I mean.

Matt Cundill  4:45  
Yeah, and tell me about growing up in the DMV and market and the radio. And I just, I went there for the first time couple years ago, and it was actually for a podcast conference, but I listened to radio. I loved it, w, T, O, P, is out of there. One of the top billing radio stations in America, and has been for a long, long time. Howard Stern, you know, had a start there. I think the grease man was there. It's got this legendary backdrop of talent and a huge history.

Julian Nieh  5:13  
Yeah, I remember when I was kid, I used to listen to, you know, the gentleman who I started interning for, Matthew blades, Elliot in the morning. Used to Ellie, you know, listen to Elliot in the morning quite a bit. In the morning, I fell in love and look to be transparent. You know, I've moved around a lot since then. So DC is where I'm from, but I've also adopted other cities as my home. We can talk about that later. But like I did, grow up specifically to Elliot in the morning. I love listening to Donnie Simpson as well more about how they made me feel. You know what I mean? Elliot was very like, very aggressive, very, very blunt, very raw. I really sense a very raw realness tone to how he handled the show, which I think I just really honestly appreciated. Super local. Matthew was super fun. I love the fact that at that time, there was no limit on time. So he was really running a morning show at night, which is where I got a lot of my influence from. You know, you can run a show that doesn't feel long and have it fluid at night, and that's really what he did, really interactive. Just had a lot of fun, man. We did like silly stuff, like Subway deliveries. I was a subway delivery guy. I do like call in saying I'm on my way, you know, leading up to the moment, you know, to the winner's house. We did the, I forgot what it's called. We did, like, a hot mall Chase, where I had tickets, you know, and I give clues as to where I was. I think I might have been at Fair Oaks Mall. It's a big mall in Northern Virginia, right? I give clues. Now, can't do that now, obviously, for legality reasons, but it was that, that anticipation, you know, we created a lot of moments of anticipation.

Matt Cundill  6:50  
Thank you, by the way, for reminding me of Donnie Simpson, that name was on the tip of my tongue, DC, 101, and Elliot Siegel, who is actually from my hometown of Montreal. Oh, is he cool? I know one of those little known things. And you know, Elliot was, you know, if he can make it, we can make it, right? Canadian people can make it to the states and get on the radio.

Julian Nieh  7:10  
I think I read an article one time he was a top 40 guy at one point, right? Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine that.

Matt Cundill  7:16  
Now, tell me about leaving the DMV that couldn't have been easy, because it's was your hometown, right? Yeah, no,

Julian Nieh  7:25  
it was my hometown, but it actually was really, really exciting making my first big move. I mean, it was Chicago's B 96 so it wasn't, it wasn't that hard, it wasn't that hard, it was something I've been waiting for, to be honest with you, my entire life. So that was actually really exciting for me. Did nights there. I did a very interactive Morning Show style concept at night, what they wanted, what they got. And that earned me the opportunity to to do mornings as well on the same station. But yeah, during that time was diary, and then we sagged into ppm. But what a time, man. What a time I had a PD, Todd Kavanaugh, who I'm still friends with to this day, that awesome guy just really let me take risks and instill the confidence in me to do things and, you know, sometimes things failed, that's okay. You know, sometimes you might have everyone's different, but I think that if you highlight someone's faults, sometimes I can get into someone's head, you know, you can mention it and talk about it, but then you move on and you highlight their wins. I think that that's a really good way to instill confidence. But anyway, long story short, my PDS at hot and B 96 were really great, and in staying the course, you know, and letting me know when they really, really like something.

Matt Cundill  8:44  
B 96 call letters are W, BBM, FM and wicked call letters, legendary call letters, legendary station for Chicago as well. But I gotta ask you, do you think radio today is really wasting it by not focusing as much on evenings? Because back then, when you did it, you were let loose. You were let loose to do things. And today, I don't know that we really take advantage of our evening shows anymore.

Julian Nieh  9:11  
Yeah, it's a good training ground, for sure, and it still can be. I'm not going to pretend to be the bean counters and know all the financials, but I will. What I do know is that the cube is definitely significantly down. You know, who listens at night after seven o'clock, very small portion. So I understand the live talent element being cut away. I do think you can use it, though, and now that we're talking about it, I think you can use it for like training grounds, for the next for the next talent, or just talent in general. You know, I'm not saying let loose and be irresponsible, but we're talking mathematically numbers. I do understand the business side of it, because it's not what it once was. And anyone that wants it to be, or expects it to be, probably a little disillusioned. You know what? I mean? You got to play where the players are. You got to go where the fish are and the fish aren't there. They're just not they're.

Matt Cundill  10:00  
And you were highly recognized, by the way, for what you did. I know, in 2009 you won an award, President's Award from Jacobs media, which I had for, I have forgotten about that. I mean, you, you also won some other awards too. I think at one point you won three years in a row, and then they wouldn't let you, like, you know, come back in again for it, right? Yeah. I mean,

Julian Nieh  10:17  
hey, you offered the entries. I'm gonna enter, you know, I'm gonna try my best. I'm competitive. Look, it's not my fault. I don't control who enters. You know what? I mean, I can control myself. So, yeah, I do remember that the Jacobs award thing, they flew me to to what thing was Texas. It was Texas. And at the time, you know, I was younger, so, you know, I'm not used to being around corporate suits and all these managers, high level managers I used to read about. I was so nervous, man, I was so like, I gotta tell you, I was sweating bullets when I was on the stage. I don't remember a word I said. Like, I had everything written down. You ever get in that moment where you know you have this plan of what you're gonna say and what you're gonna talk about? I don't remember a thing. I don't remember how it came out. I don't remember how it came out, but hopefully it wasn't that bad. I still don't know

Matt Cundill  11:04  
You strike me as very I mean, connection is very important to you, and connecting to the audience and connecting to people, you've got a superpower of empathy to be able to understand and know what the audience wants. And when you get into a room full of suits, it can be quite difficult, because this is not the normal type of audience that I'm catering to every day. So what do they want? So you're not really connected, and then you've got the stage that sort of separates you, and there's some lights on you, and there's an award involved. And sometimes you might go, Well, why am I here again?

Julian Nieh  11:35  
Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it's like I was just intimidated. Because, you know, when you read about, you know, a lot of these names, you know, that I've been reading about since I was in high school. You know, I look up to them. They're kind of like stars to me, if I can be

Matt Cundill  11:47  
honest with you, oh no, it's the same, Yeah, same. I know, yeah. I mean, look

Julian Nieh  11:52  
at the forefront. You're absolutely right. Just going back to what you said, I just got into this because I love people. I love making them feel something. It makes me happy to make them happy, as cheesy as it is, I'm not a musicologist. I'm not a scientific guy. I'm not, you know, I I'm like this, you know, I go by the heart. If that makes any sense, it really makes me feel complete. To make someone laugh or make someone, you know, it's off the air, on the air, I really don't care, or, in person, make them feel something and, yeah, that's why it's really this business is like, it's a push pull, you know, you have, it's very political, but you also have, you know, this love of the art, you know, and that's kind of what, uh, I deal with quite a bit, to be honest with you. But at the end of the day, man, the art of communication is really what I love. And now we have social media, and I look at as an amplifier. You can definitely, you know, use it as an amplifier. And you can see, I mean, you know, not to go off on a tangent. You can see influencers. That's what they've done, the people that go in on them negatively. You can do that, but I don't think that's the right way. You we actually should be learning from them, because to gain an audience is so hard man, to gain an audience on your own. On your own is so hard to be transparent people that work for radio stations. I mean, we're blessed because we have a built in audience right morning shows are different. You're building an audience, but you're still on the radio station. You're not billing on your own.

Matt Cundill  13:18  
Yeah, so like your first day of work, let's say at B 96 you showed up and then there was an audience. But you could start a social media channel or a podcast or a YouTube channel, and you are starting at zero.

Julian Nieh  13:30  
That's right that now my job, obviously, on FM, on the air, is to entertain the audience, so I can keep them longer for TSL and also get more human from the other competing stations. But at the end of the day, you know, it's different being a social media influencer, where they're starting from zero, you know, they got this zero followers, right? Or is there streaming live, but they have no audience. So I envy that. I'm not going to be honest with you, I give them props.

Matt Cundill  13:55  
Why are some people born curious? And I guess this is sort of a way of saying, what was it when you grew up that caused you to become such

Julian Nieh  14:03  
a curious person? Yeah, you know, maybe parts genetic. Maybe it's like how you're raised. I've always asked a lot of questions. Anyone that knows me say he has a lot of questions. And it's just because I want to know. You know, I'm not like Matt, I'm not like that deep of a thinker, which could be good or bad, like I'm not thinking, you know, step one will get me to step two, step three, depending on the situation. Obviously, if it's a meeting or something, you know, that's a different level of thinking. But generally, if I want to, you know, ask something, I'm going to ask you something. So I'm curious, I, you know, I don't know. I can't ask, you know, maybe part genetic, how you're raised, who you are as a person, your experiences, I've always kind of just like, been a people person, you know, I'll give you a small example. Like I was really into import cars in Northern Virginia. Are you into that whole thing in the 90s? You know, like you ever seen those kids that drive those looked up imports, integras and Acuras. I had some friends who were into that. Really big in the 90s. In certain markets like California and New York. And anyway, it was real big in the DMV. And, you know, I used to, I used to actually run a business outside my house selling car parts. But what I did as a arm to that is build a team of friends. To this day. If I did it today, it would be on the phone, right? We would have this team online everywhere. But it was a band of brothers, you know, and that's how I look at like radio stations, a band of brothers and a band of sisters all in this together. And we were a team of friends that had a love for cars. We'd have meetings. We were friends, we'd hang out. You see what I'm saying, and I did this cars is like one thing. We had a love of cars. But really, for me, it was about the friendships. It was about the people. I just love hanging out.

Matt Cundill  15:43  
Yeah, it's just one of those things I find with radio today too, is that just not enough people in the buildings that sort of have that sort of beehive of creativity. And my sense, by the way, is that someone like you would really thrive in and amongst all the activity that's sort of going on around you. Now, sometimes people go to work and there's like couple people, but no real creativity happening. And I find it's harder for somebody who grew up on the air and then, you know, in the ops and the teens and whatever we call that now, to make that transition, to be doing their show prep and to be doing all their work and their creativity in and among by themselves in a covid type situation,

Julian Nieh  16:21  
that's a really, really good point. That's really, really good point, and you're absolutely right. I've been in both those situations and you're absolutely right. Let me ask you this, what do you do in a situation like that? When you get into a situation where, Look, everyone has responsibilities at the end of the day, everyone you should look out for yourself first. I mean, people do that's just how it is. But what do you do in a situation like that in this modern time where just bodies aren't around.

Matt Cundill  16:44  
You go to Morning Show boot camp, you go to Podcast Movement, you go to, you know, the social media conventions to go into, make connections and find people and talk to them. And you can find in the four days. I mean, I know we're compressing it down to just a few days. And yes, I know it does cost a little money to go to these places and to do travel, but that becomes your hub of creativity as well. There are some online, you know, networks that you can join. But I think one of the things that I learned when I left radio was my first year, I sat by myself, and I really didn't get very far, and I really didn't do too much, other than, you know, a few contract gigs. But you know, once I started to make appearances, it could have been Conclave, could have been Podcast Movement worldwide, radio summit and things like that. Things really began to move, and things really began to change for me, if you

Julian Nieh  17:35  
don't mind me asking, since you've left a, do you miss it. And B, did you have an identity issue? Sometimes we run into identity issues where radio is who we are is all we are. Does that make sense?

Matt Cundill  17:50  
100% so yes, and I still have it, actually, because probably the most common and recurring dream I'm having is that I'm still at work, but I'm not being paid for it, and I'm still doing work, and it's unfinished, but I realize I'm not being paid for it, and it's bizarre. It sort of feels like I'm telling myself that there's unfinished business in this particular area. So that's my number one radio dream. And of course, I have the one that everybody else has with the dead air. I have that one a couple times a month, easily. But yeah, in terms of identity, that's it. That comes up quite a bit. Yeah, very relatable. Thanks for sharing. By the way, I analyze dreams, so if you if you are having dreams involving your wallet that is also tied to identity, what do you mean by that? So if you lose your wallet in your dream, if you can't find your wallet, if your wallets a different color, if any of that comes up in your dreams that's related to identity. Never had that dream. I know it's ridiculous. I analyze. I really do analyze dreams. And I

Julian Nieh  18:48  
know you do analyze. I can tell that. You can tell me not so much. It's depending what it is. If you talk to me about finances, I'm going to analyze it because I care about my financial stability. But I guess depends what we're talking about. Thanks for giving me the tip on the social media conferences. That's actually something that you are inspiring me to do this year. Let me know when the next one is, and I will make it a point to maybe check it out. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  19:12  
And can even be like it can even be one. You know about podcasting, there are a few conferences out there, and I'll put them in the show notes to this episode for those who want to like branch a little bit just outside of radio. And, you know, I'll touch on this too, because I know recently, you've been featured in, you know, Barrett sports media, and they've got a conference. There's another excellent conference just to go to. Let's just see what sports media people are up to these days and how they handle media. Because again, it most of us become fractured. But so is radio. You know, how you handle music radio and how you handle sports radio and how you handle talk and news. It's more different than it's ever been, more diverse than ever before.

Julian Nieh  19:46  
That's it. That's in New York, right? I'll think about I got to think, like, financially and like, what's the more strategic moves? But yeah, I looked at that as somebody I would love to check out. I just had to think about it.

Matt Cundill  19:57  
But aside from the creative hive that goes on. Where, you know, we all get together and we all try to think stuff up. Radio is still a very lonely experience. Wait, you mean off air or on the air, both, like you can be on you can be an on air personality, but off the air, yeah,

Julian Nieh  20:13  
it can. It definitely can. I think that goes back to, you know, just like you said, attending conference and things like that, but you got to find your tribe. You know, that's the thing. Hardest thing is finding your tribe. They don't need to be in the building. They could be outside the building. But once you find a tribe, I think there's some comfortability there. And I can only speak just personally, you know, I was only still in Vegas, but I was only here for such a short amount of time, it's hard to I never had a chance to build my tribe, you know. I mean, like, I don't know if people really look at that when you're, you know, in and out of work. So I don't know if I answer your question, but going back to, you know, within the building, I can't speak for every building, because I just don't know, but I can tell you this, I worked in Seattle, and I worked for a small company called Lotus, and I didn't know what to expect. I really didn't, but the owner was really cool. Everyone there was really, really great. And from day one they it was like a small family. It literally, you've always heard that term, where I operate like a small family, and they do, and I really appreciate everyone there. They treat you like family. It inspired me to want to do all the social media, which I did. You know what I mean? I wanted to do all that I wanted, because I'm part of the family. I can't say you had to, have to be there. Forget the ratings, forget any of that stuff. I'm just saying how we're treated as people. From the experience I had, everyone was really in it to win. It collectively. It wasn't really about it wasn't just an individualistic mindset. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Matt Cundill  21:35  
So the station you were on was, was Star 1015, you did afternoons. But tell me a little bit about, you know, culture inside these places, because you you've worked for here, for bonnieville, you've worked for alpha you've worked for Hubbard. I heart, you know, and you know, on one point Odyssey as well. So, you know, the differences between them all. So what constitutes a good radio culture?

Julian Nieh  21:56  
Yeah, I would say local leadership. Local leadership. Now, now I will say that the companies, you know, they're so liquid. I don't know what it's like to work for. I heart anymore, you know, vice versa. It's changed. But it all comes down to, like, the local leadership, you know. I mean, I've been blessed to work for great managers, but, uh, yeah, it all comes down to local leadership and what's important to them. Look, we can read all these articles. Let's just be honest. Let's we can read all these articles saying culture is so, you know, important, blah, blah, blah. I mean, look, what are you gonna say the article? It's not important. You know what? I mean, you have to get in there and experience it for yourself. It's kind of like, I know there's a bad example. If you ever see those examples of advertisements or job postings we're looking for, you know, incredible influencer, you know? I mean, we there's station does this, does this and this. And this, and you go on Instagram and it's pictures of people posting pictures of their hamburgers, and it has no likes, do you get what I'm saying? Let's be realistic. So what is important is culture really important? Or it's secondary, which is fine, like, just say it. You know, we're here to do a job. We get paid to do it, and I'm happy to perform and do my very best. You know, I hope I'm answering your questions just I'm very passionate when we get to this stuff, because we don't cut the checks. This is a game. We're here to play the game and follow the rules, and I've learned that over the course of time. So company culture outside of work or in the hallways, rather, it may be important to some, may not be important to others, and that's fine.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  23:21  
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Matt Cundill  23:55  
it's so chill, like after every sort of restructuring, or every, you know, every layoff or something afterwards, by the way, we're doing this, and now we're gonna have fun, fun, fun, and we're all gonna have fun. And, you know, often people do not have fun, and it goes into, you know, various different directions. And it's just like, you said, nobody's gonna say, yeah, it's gonna suck. Because every year somebody asked me about my podcast predictions for 2020, whatever we're in. And I'm like, Oh no, this year is gonna be shit. Like, I'm never gonna say that, right?

Julian Nieh  24:22  
But we make the best of the situations. You know, you make the best way. I know it sounds cheesy, but you know, you learn from it, and at the end of the day, you have to have a job.

Matt Cundill  24:30  
I love this line, by the way that you this came out a couple of years ago when you did a video, and it's about 13 minutes long. It was called, I've been

Julian Nieh  24:38  
there, yeah, I did that be, like a year ago? Yeah, really good, by the way, thanks, man.

Matt Cundill  24:45  
And in there you said Air Checks are a thing of the past, and they are because a lot of program directors don't do them, but I don't think that's what you meant. I think you really meant that we really shouldn't be air checking. Perhaps we should be doing something a little different. Well.

Julian Nieh  25:00  
Wait, no, I mean air checking a talent is fine. I'm saying judging talent and base hire ability based on the air check is kind of a thing of the past. I think it's, you know, without getting, you know, getting the weeds. I think it's more 360 I think a lot of it has to do with social media. How do you use it? How do you understand it? If you don't understand all of it, which I don't, totally, totally fine, just be honest, a lot of it is this getting to know the person, your experiences and whatnot. And can you execute that depending on your day, part in bite sized pieces that impact, but solely basing, because most PDS will the first thing they do is listen to the air chat, which I understand. I understand. I personally, I'm nobody. Man, look, I'm nobody. But I actually would probably go on their social media first. I go on the social just see, listen to some audio. And I think we need to give each other more grace and time get to know the person a little bit more if you're interested. Now, the pushback the questions can be, why don't have that much time to go through all of them? You're right. So let me look at the resume. Let me see how it's done. Written? Is it written? Is it written? Well, are you presenting yourself? Well, you know what I mean, like, if I'm coming to a job, if I'm, you know, if you're hiring Matt and I am interviewing with you, if I came dressed horrendously, would you take me seriously?

Matt Cundill  26:14  
I would probably have my eyebrow raised, and I'd be asking a few additional questions.

Julian Nieh  26:18  
Yeah, right. So visually, on the phone, in person, I think all that stuff matters first impressions, but, yeah, I just think solely based off air check, because people will make, here's what's crazy, is that people, some people, will make decisions just based off the first 510, seconds of an air check. I mean, I just that's not all the person is. Now, it depends how it sounds. Let me just say right now, look, I mean, if it's absolute ass, that's one thing. But, you know, I think that there's a lot, there can be a lot more to people if you give them a little bit more time. And a lot of stuff can be trained and taught as well and molded.

Matt Cundill  26:53  
Yes, that was my point I was about to make, is that even if it doesn't sound good the first time I said, I can work with that,

Julian Nieh  26:59  
I can grow that. But again, it comes to time, everyone's situation, different. So I don't want some people listening to this thinking, Oh, well, you know, he doesn't understand. You have so much time. Every situation is different. You can only work with the rules or the guidelines you're given. I'm just saying, in a perfect world if we're given more time, because you just never know. Let me tell you something. I never like some people who I'm friends with to this day, I never would have thought would be my friend if I didn't give them more time to get to know them. Does that make sense? Don't hold a ton of friends, but I have probably on two hands, and I've made every market at least two to four, and that's based off time and chances. You know, I'm

Matt Cundill  27:39  
thinking about what you said, where we had to, sort of, you know, remind people who are doing the hiring to do more than just listen to the air check. I don't know of a single job out there professional anyways, where anybody who's hiring isn't going to go and scan the socials from end to end to look for stuff. So I'm not sure why radio would be any different if you're going to be hired to be a lawyer, if you're going to be hired to be, you know, a doctor, if you're going to be hired to be a politician, if you're going to work in communications, people are going to go through your socials and analyze and look at them in some capacity. So I don't know why in radio, we're not doing that more.

Julian Nieh  28:14  
I think some are. I'm sure a lot are, especially in the, you know, high level positions, my concern. And look, I am no social media expert, and to be honest, I'm one of those guys. Will tell you everything. I feel guilty because I haven't posted in like, a bunch of days, but you can see, based off socials, what someone's about. Are they a funny guy? Are they serious? Are they a foodie? Are they about their family? You can get a vibe. You can get a vibe from anyone or they're just posting pictures of what they eat. Or you can get a vibe of what they're about and their capabilities. That's the thing that worries me, is the capabilities. It's not about like, they don't need to post, like, three different posts every single day, but it's about what you see, and then you got to look at the likes, are they real? They fake? That's my concern. Is like, whoever's looking at it, are they cognizant? And I'm sure a lot are, but I still worry, are they cognizant of those aspects, and also, who's buying followers and who's not? You know, all these things come into play. Because, let's be honest, there's a lot of follow. There's a lot of people that have a ton of followers, and probably most of them are real. But I'll tell you this, man, there's two I know that do not, and this, I'm not here to name, you know, to play that game, but that are not, and then it concerns me, well, is management aware that, you know, these aren't real followers. You can tell by the comments. And then you go on the likes, just you got to do some digging. Look at the likes. Who's liking it? You know what? I mean? It's an account that doesn't exist.

Matt Cundill  29:33  
I see it in YouTube all the time. You can see who's really has traction, and who has bought their their subscribes and and their likes and whatnot. And you know, to an extent, in podcasting as well, full disclosure, we make all of our downloads available publicly. They are all IAB certified. Anybody can look I'm totally happy to just give you the real number, because I think whenever there's anything fraudulent, people will find out. They're going to know, listen, the number is there. But let's say. You bring on a client to promote a product? Well, there's no one there, and that cash register is not going to ring, and you're not getting a renewal.

Julian Nieh  30:09  
Well, but okay, just just for the conversation, Matt, I mean, that could be a combination of things that could lead to the strength of the station, or the strength of the or lack thereof, of the talent. Just because you have a lot of followers doesn't mean you have real influence. Influence is when you're influencing someone to follow you or do an act or buy something, or, you know, there's a service involved. Or do you know what I mean? So, you know, it's it can be no different as a stage that has a lot of listeners, but we're just advertising something, and no one shows up at the door. Well, that's happened before, so I do get what you're saying. Let me ask you this, being that you know you worked in management so long to this day, if you were to categorize it, rank it, from on air to social media, podcasting, all these things. What levels of importance is it to you? Or do you think it

Matt Cundill  30:58  
should be? It should be? However, I think it has changed now to a point where it used to be sort of like 8020, between what you can do on air, it may be closer to 5050, now radio, it depends also who you work for, because a lot of radio stations, a lot of radio companies would not be willing to accept that number. But I believe that in radio today, 5050 is probably the place you should start, 50% on air, 50% social.

Julian Nieh  31:25  
Okay, now, I forgot to add this in. What about sales? That's probably the driving force, right? I mean, do you think it kind of all falls by the wayside, if you're able to really close in a lot of sales, or have a lot of clients, do you think everything else falls by the wayside?

Matt Cundill  31:39  
Everybody has to have some sort of sales involvement of some I think we sort of established that around 2017 2018 when we got together at Radio conferences and said, Yeah, are you working with a sales department? What can you do? What is your strength? Is it going out on sales calls? Is it perhaps making proposals? Is it perhaps making the demo spots, the demo pitches? What is going to be your contribution to sales. You have to have some sort of role in it. Tell me about the time you nearly got sued for a prank that went wrong. Well, you do a lot of reading.

Julian Nieh  32:14  
Well, let me back this up by saying that I'm following the strategy that was given

Matt Cundill  32:17  
to me. It was a different time. It was a different place, right?

Julian Nieh  32:21  
And I love my PD, Jeff Wyatt, to this day, he and I are still good friends, but he gave me my first shot doing nights in the major and he wanted something that really shadow, you know, rocked the airways and made got people talking. So I'm just trying all sorts of stuff. Man, I'm coming into work at freaking 9:10am, you know. I'm just trying stuff, planning stuff, right? And I did a lot of pranks. It's a lot because, you know, it's been so long that I, you know, I'm trying to remember I did make everyone mad, make your family mad, make your mom mad, make your dad mad, Make Your Boyfriend mad, make your you know, make everyone mad. I'd have like for tickets, you know, like girls will call her man, telling them that, you know that they've been cheating on them. I'm fast forward to the story. I train them very well, and then I would come on the line being the guy that they're cheating with. I play along. Most people stop the prank. I keep going. That's the difference. When you do a prank call, most people stop at their prank in a store, they'll stop after one or two calls. I keep going. I'll go 1020, calls deep and record it all see what I'm saying. Anyway, the prank was, I'm in the middle of a robbery, so had a girl call. We had production the end of like, this is really guy ish, okay, this is really, it's not who I am anymore.

Matt Cundill  33:31  
But remember, a different time, a different place, different time,

Julian Nieh  33:35  
different place, we produce audio in the background, kind of faint audio of men screaming in the background and gunshots going off while that's going on. It's going on a produced bed. So if you know, I heart on a next gen, they got a produced bed. I had it run. They were like five minutes long. I'm like 10 minutes long, just in case the bid is not 10 minutes long. This is off the air. I'm letting you know how I ran it. So it's feeding down the line. I'm having it run while we're calling the parent. The girl is calling her mom and telling her she's in 711 and it's getting robbed. It's getting robbed, and you hear gunshots in the background, because remember the running bed when you get a call, you don't automatically think it's fake, especially if you're a parent. I know this, right? So you got the gun shots in the background, people screaming, put your head down, you know, get down on the floor, you know, put your hands up. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We had all these different commands go, going off on a running bed. And long story short, you know, I mean, the mom was, was really worried and, and I don't remember the specifics, but I think a certain amount of time I got on there and kind of messed around with her. She's like, she doesn't know what's going on. And I told her as a joke for tickets. And, yeah, I don't think she took it too well, because I got served not so long after. But it's all that type of stuff, you know, I do the drug boss where, you know, I had one kid called her mom, and I had audio of the police in the background, police and sirens going off, and she's saying that she just got arrested. She just got pulled over, and she's got drugs in the car. She'd got cocaine in the back, and at this time, I'm just guessing what the parent's gonna say. So I had a button bars separate commands, like a police talking through a megaphone,

Matt Cundill  35:10  
put your hands

Julian Nieh  35:12  
on the steering wheel. We know about the drugs. You understand. I had 10 different scenarios based off what I thought that they'd respond to the parent. This is not a prank. I repeat, you know, I mean, so that's kind of how my mindset was during that time, edgy noise, because that's what we're in diary at the time. It's what people remember, get people talking,

Matt Cundill  35:37  
and that's how that's how it worked. It's not what you listen to, it's what you remember listening to. You don't want to be forgettable, right? So you're Julian on the radio. And I thought to myself, I used to call myself Cundill on the radio back in the 90s, early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. And I'd love to say that I made that up, but I ripped it off from a guy named Jeff Wyatt, who was Wyatt on the radio.

Julian Nieh  36:01  
Is that Jeff White I worked for? Was it the Jeff White who worked at power 106? Yeah, wow. He would be honored to hear that. I'll share with him that. Yeah, he'd

Matt Cundill  36:10  
be honored to know that I stole his bit. But how is he gonna know I was in Nova Scotia, he was in Los Angeles, but I called myself Cundill

Julian Nieh  36:16  
on the radio. You know, these days, honestly, I think we just probably call myself Julian, to be honest with you. You know, that's how times have kind of changed, and I'll probably just be who we are, Julian, you know, on the radio, is that really, you know,

Matt Cundill  36:30  
is it something? Yeah, it's something. If you're on the radio, at least people know where you are. But if you're on social media, you should just say you're Julian. On social media, yeah, just Julian, speaking of social media, what's your favorite? Like YouTube, be like Instagram. Do you

Julian Nieh  36:43  
treat it all equal? Yeah, I watch it all. I'm a big podcast fan, pretty specific on what I watch, but yeah, I mean, I'm just like anyone else I'm doing, scrolling on I on IG and looking through tons of content that rots my brain, but at least, you know, I'm just gonna admit it, but I'm a big UFC fan, so I watch a lot of MMA fighting podcasts. I like financial podcasts as well. I watch a lot of entertainment based podcasts more in the hip hop space. The reason is, is because of the storylines. I'm not like a hip hop expert, although I do like hip hop, but there's more like I'll be honest with you. I like the dirt, I like the the contrast. I like the arguments, and a lot of hip hop is based off that, to be honest with you. You know, everyone watches different things for different reasons. I like UFC podcasts because not so much of the fighting, the fighting is cool, but of the storylines, and I think that comes down to authenticity, right radio authenticity, the storylines, I'm emotionally connected to a lot of the fighters, because I know their stories, and I watch a lot of their pieces. So what about WWE? Not so much, because that is, you know, I grew up in the Hulk Hogan days, and maybe I haven't given it a chance, Matt, so maybe you can delve more into that. But to me, I'm not, like, really into the showy, into the glamor and the glitz. I know that it's very hard, it's a hard sport and whatnot, but to me, like UFC MMA is the closest form to real life gladiators of our time. Like, the fighting is not fake, it's completely real, and the storylines are completely real. Julian, what's next for you? I don't know. What do you want to have next for you? I'd like to end it in a situation that aligns with me. You know, it's funny. I was telling someone this the other day. She said, What'd she say? She was talking about market sizes. I said, it's not about market sizes. It's about alignment. Where does someone best align? And I hope that makes sense. I'm a diverse guy. I love diversity. I love people. You know, if you take that away, it's like taking water away from a dog. It's what I thrive in. So whatever that looks like, that would be ideal, but not to be a doom and gloom guy. I'm also cognizant the fact that, Look, man, it's a small industry. Everyone knows each other, or they heard of each other, or they think they know someone based on what someone told them, or whatever, right? So with that said, it is a challenging time. It's gonna get more challenging. It's not gonna get better. That's just my take. But you do the best you can based off the situation you are. I do love the industry, but I'm also cognizant where I don't wanna be that person. How do I word I gotta make sure I phrase this correct. This correctly. I don't want to be chasing a dream that isn't there anymore. I'll give you this example, and this is just how I am when you were dating. You ever have a girl cheat on you Sure? Yeah, I have. You ever go back to her? I might have. Okay, I have. I kept going back to her. Do you think that was a disservice to me, or do you think that's a disservice to you? Of course, so that's my analogy. It's a disservice, and I have to make sure the blinders are off and not believe we're in la la land. So when I say, I don't know, I don't know, I can hope and dream, but that doesn't turn into the. The right position that's in alignment for both parties. I'd love to be in that situation. I think I and I believe I have a lot to give creative and more alike, but, uh, yeah, if it doesn't end up that way, I may just have to end up moving, moving back to a city that I have friends in, and we'll see. The caveat. The good thing is, I suggest anyone I know this is a podcast about radio media, but anyone that's new to this, unless you come from, you know, a wealthy background, there's different types of ways to invest, but you know, I invest long term. I knew when I was in college that this is not a normal business when Matthew blades told me he's moved freaking six times before he got to DC. When I was a kid, I was like, what? You lived in Minnesota, you moved to Texas, you moved to Erie, Pennsylvania. You get what I'm saying. So, unstable man, save your money, invest your money, because it's times like this, you're gonna need him, and money's in everything. But if you don't think it's important, then hey, more power to you. So that's what I will say. It'll give you some sense of sanity, and you can get some stability while you're while you're out chasing whatever that that dream is.

Matt Cundill  41:11  
You know, I love you mentioned that, by the way, I don't usually add on, but you made me think of something, especially when it came to the moving, when I was looking for work, and I think it was around 2017 would you like to go to Detroit and work? I said, Yeah, I guess so I gotta move, right? And then I started to think about the move. Then I thought about the other offer, and it was gonna be another move. And then I said, I think I just wanna move to New York and work for this podcast company. And I went to the guy and I said, Can I work for you? And he said, Okay. I said, Well, I'll move. He goes, Well, you don't have to Oh, okay. And then I never thought about working in radio again. Wow.

Julian Nieh  41:52  
Is that where you are right now? Are you working for

Matt Cundill  41:54  
No, that was just, I did that for a year, but I didn't have to move. Why? You could just work at home.

Julian Nieh  41:59  
Okay, wow. Now, out of curiosity, how many times have you moved in your radio career?

Matt Cundill  42:06  
Oh, five, easily. So we'll count Nova Scotia, but then I went home to Montreal, but then I went to Alberta, but then I went home to Montreal, and then I went to Winnipeg. And now I've just moved back to I've moved back home.

Julian Nieh  42:21  
Would you ever move to the states for the right opportunity that aligns with you, sure at this time and place where you are in your life? Well, yeah, I

Matt Cundill  42:30  
probably would. I mean, I know there's a lot of talk about the government down there. And would you go to Minneapolis with all sorts of activities going on there? I think that's something that we do think about now, that we never used to think about, but yeah, of course, I would always be amiable to something like that.

Julian Nieh  42:45  
Why do we love this business so much? It's a great I mean, look, there's a lot of good about the business.

Matt Cundill  42:50  
Yeah, if the opportunity is there and you've got the mobility, go and do it absolutely,

Julian Nieh  42:56  
yeah, yeah. I don't know what it is. It's still about the energy, that feeling. But I think that's why we do it, man, yeah, I just wanted to ask it. I just kind of see where you are at your, you know, time and place, meaning the fact that you're, you know, you're heavily versed in the podcast world now, too. So, yeah,

Matt Cundill  43:13  
I mean, it's, oh, look, I can do this at home. Well, like I said, there's some drawbacks to working at home, right? It can get a little bit lonely, it gets a little bit quiet, you know, it's, um, you know, I've got a wife who looks at me who thinks I'm at home, but no, I'm working, and it becomes a workspace for the it's, it can be bizarre. And actually, there's, for 10 years I walked outside my door. I didn't even know what city I lived in. It turns out it was Winnipeg, which is why I had to leave. I always wanted to. What is

Julian Nieh  43:37  
the differences between Canadian radio and then radio in the States, are there any?

Matt Cundill  43:42  
Yeah, there's a few more regulations. I think the regular there's a few, you know, different regulations, one of them being music. You got to play 35% Canadian content on air. But overall, presentation wise, two tooth and stop sets an hour, the whole deal. Yeah, it's fairly similar in that sense. And in his presentation, and I think that can That's because 90% of the Canadian population is within 100 miles of the US border. And so there's a lot of spillover. We hear a lot of radio. Could be from Buffalo, could be, I mean, Detroit and Windsor are, you know, that's the same market. And you know Vancouver, Seattle, you know Victoria, Seattle, there's a lot of spill. I grew up in Montreal, where we get Vermont, Burlington, Vermont and Plattsburgh, New York. No problem. I think they're hiring 95 Triple X. There we go.

Julian Nieh  44:33  
There you go. What do you love listening to? Who do you love listening to, Morning Show wise, station wise.

Matt Cundill  44:40  
I listened to Colin coward in sports. Sports guy. Okay, yeah, I listen to sports. I listen to it on podcasts. So it's catch up radio, as it were. If I need to turn on a radio station, there's a triple A radio station. I like 1071 the peak out of Hudson Valley, New York. And I'm just sort of rediscovering tune in now. I had a. Bit of a fight with tune in for a while, because they weren't taking any podcasts for about 18 months. They've now been sold to a Canadian company called Stingray, and I'm falling back in love with TuneIn.

Julian Nieh  45:09  
Got it? Okay? Cool. Cool. So you're a sports guy.

Matt Cundill  45:12  
I am. I'm a sports guy most of the NFL season, and after that, I put it away and I go feel sad and need to go to therapy because I'm a Buffalo Bills fan, and then I'll go to some World Cup. I definitely love the World Cup, but those are the two that I follow. That being said, I'm going to see the Montreal Canadiens play this week. Still a

Julian Nieh  45:31  
bit of a hockey guy, cool. Well, appreciate the time. Is there anything else that we should discuss?

Matt Cundill  45:38  
I don't think so. I think we covered it. Hey, Julian, I want to wish you all the all the very best, and you know what's next for you. I love this conversation. It was great. It was great to get to know you and to just sit down and

Julian Nieh  45:48  
just talk radio same. We need more people like you in the business. Man, I'd

Matt Cundill  45:53  
love to jump back in. By the way, if you're hiring, call me.

Julian Nieh  45:58  
I love it. Thanks, Matt, thank you.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  46:00  
The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan cerminsky, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aidan glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com you.