Life of a Radio Girl

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Last week, our Instagram account got a follow from an account called Life of a radio girl podcast. Naturally, I couldn't resist. I checked out the profile, and it's a podcast journaling or diarizing one woman's career in radio. The artwork is AI. But is the podcast real, or is it AI driven? There is a real human behind the microphone on this podcast, and they join me from Parts Unknown.

Matt Cundill  0:41  
Why are you doing this podcast?

Radio Girl  0:42  
 I'm doing it for me right now. I'm in between roles, and I just want. It's not a want, it's a need. I need a creative outlet. And I was just sort of recording voice notes on my phone, just sort of talking, just putting sort of ideas out there, and these ideas were sort of morphing less in the action plans or a timeline of things, and really just sort of being retrospective thoughts of my experience in the industry. And it's, it's just something I'm doing for myself, which is a nice change, you know, I'm not chasing downloads. I'm not chasing subscribers. You know, the producer in me is still wanting to market myself and put myself out there, but it's actually, it's just a project for me, and I just don't want to be another person telling people what they should be doing or what's going wrong in their lives, because I think I'm just as clueless as everyone else. So that's why I've kind of marketed as this is not a how to in radio. This is just my experience of being in the industry for as long as

Matt Cundill  1:47  
I've been. Why did your last role in radio end?

Radio Girl  1:52  
I had a big family life change, and it made me want to sort of pack up and move back home. You know, when I left where I currently am, I just thought everyone would live forever and go on and do all the things. But as I've gotten older, you know, life has happened, so I sort of packed up. And there have been times in my career where I wish I backed myself more at the time to take a chance, and I didn't, and I thought, you know, this is the best time in life to take a chance. It's going to be with family, it's going to be something totally new, something totally different, and it's scary. And I don't know that this podcast is necessarily going to help my cause in the industry, but I'm just right now in a phase of doing what feels what's right for me, and not thinking about the next week, month, five years, 10 years.

Matt Cundill  2:39  
This is an obvious question, but why be anonymous? You know,

Radio Girl  2:45  
part of me is, pardon the French, but I'm shit scared that this is what's gonna be my final nail in the coffin. You know, I described my sort of time in radio. It sort of can be like a toxic relationship. I mean, I love it so much, but it's the same thing that makes me question a lot of things that I do, right down to this podcasting experience, it's so taboo for those of us in the industry to lift the lid and say what really goes on. And I think it's this juxtaposition of thinking that this is the wrong thing to do because it's not what the bosses of the industry might want to hear. But then it's the right thing to do because it is my authentic experience. And how wild is it that whether you're a woman in a male dominated field, whether you're a producer in a land of you know, talent in broadcasting industry, it's like that dichotomy of not being able to actually say what goes on. So it's sort of this naughty little project right now of me just saying whatever the hell I want and putting it out there, because I really feel like it's going to resonate with people. It's those sort of Hallway Conversations, or those back of the studio conversations that you have that you shut up as soon as someone comes and opens the door. I'm having those conversations and just putting it out there,

Matt Cundill  4:06  
yeah, because you say toxic relationship. And I said, Oh, it's obvious why you would be anonymous, but that's still the way radio largely operates in a form of toxic relationship. So when we use those words, what's one moment that drove that home for you in radio,

Radio Girl  4:24  
I can honestly say that I have a good set of self esteem. I'm a pretty confident person, however, radio, which is my calling, I really believe that is the one thing that makes me question myself more, that it's broken my heart more than any boy has. It's made me question myself more than any sort of developmental phase has, and yet I just keep on coming back for more. I don't know if it's masochism or what it is, but it's like the thing that I love so much is the thing that can drive me absolutely bonkers. And I mean, if I were to say. Still it into one experience. I don't really know that I could, because some of the most shocking experiences actually sort of didn't settle down and really cement themselves in my thoughts and in my psyche, and have that moment of reflection until currently, where I'm now in this moment where I'm not chasing content every single day, and I'm not chasing an audience every day. So it's really not till now that I've had the time to think about it and I think, Oh yeah, that that was messed up, that really wasn't great. So yeah, it's just sort of where I'm at in my reflection at the moment.

Matt Cundill  5:32  
And I can totally relate to that, because I think I got about 35 years after an incident before I really realized how screwed up something was 35 years ago that caused me to leave a radio station and move three time zones away

Radio Girl  5:47  
wild. That's it. It's like we're in this mode of putting our needs, whether you are producing, whether you are on air talent, whether you are you know, one of the integral cogs that doesn't necessarily get seen. It's like we're so used to putting our needs on the back burner because that of the audience supersedes us, or that of the, you know, VP of Operations and whatever supersedes us and their needs, that it's like we don't actually have the time to think, Wow, that was actually traumatic. I should not have either been put in that situation. I shouldn't have been touched that way. I shouldn't have been spoken to that way. And it's like, yeah, it's just this moment of silence that's really allowing me to churn through those moments and sort of and again, that's why I want to put this out there, because I know that I'm not the only person that this stuff happens to. So I just want to make a space for people to just be able to just have some feelings and have a moment of reflection, even if they're not in a moment of silence in their professional life, like I think we all could have used these moments of reflection a bit more often along the way.

Matt Cundill  6:55  
Are you worried that people in the industry might find out who you are?

Radio Girl  7:00  
Yes, I am trepidatious, you know, and I've been racking my brain as well, because part of me just really wants to go out there and put my face to it, because I am well respected in my I don't know what you want to call it, where, where I am. Have done most of my work. I am known, and I do believe that my character would certainly carry me through any of this bullshit, but there's also a part of me that while I have the On Air experience, I'm more at home behind the scenes and sort of being in control and making the decision. So part of my anonymity is to save my own hide. I'm not trying to necessarily blow my career up right now, but it's also a way for me to be my most authentic self. I feel like if I put my name and my face to it, and I get all this feedback, that I will then shy away from those honest moments or those honest feelings. Because while I can say I am a confident person, it's not like I'm one that would normally put my vulnerabilities out there for everyone to

Matt Cundill  8:01  
see. What do you love about producing morning radio? It's being a

Radio Girl  8:07  
thought shaper like I think, for the individuals that aren't in the industry, they don't really understand how much can sort of go into a piece of content, and it's story arc, or the moment you cover it, whether it's horrible, you know, sometimes we're delivering the worst news to our audience, whether it's you know, violence doesn't stop. The natural disasters don't stop for a time. Covid didn't stop. But there's also this ability to be the voice of reason, to be the calm in the storm, and just lets people know we're in this together. We're all people, we're all human, and we're all going to figure this out. And I think that is sort of the crux of morning radio. I remember there was this story one time years ago, and we got in a round table battle, I mean fully, yelling in each other's faces about how this should be covered, and it was healthy. You know, this is not one of the traumatic moments. This is actually a good moment, believe it or not. But, you know, we are like battling, and we are at these opposite ends of the opinion spectrum. And I really got to let my point know. And while my host to my face, did not concede on air, they said exactly what I had said. And I thought, yes, like I did that, you know, and I felt like it was a really important conversation. It was a conversation about, you know, sort of gender and respect and all that. So it was something that I still think about, and I'm like, that was a huge win for me. And those are the things that sort of have kept me going along the way, is knowing that I can shape the way a whole demographic receives a piece of information, and that may shape the way that they go out into the world today. And there's some real power to that. And I love it.

Matt Cundill  9:51  
I love the contradiction of big ego and low self esteem. And you know, a lot of talents sort of play in that buck. It. What do you think attracts big ego and low self esteem to radio? I

Radio Girl  10:05  
think it is the hubris. I think it's when you go out and you've got people sort of phoning for your attention, and you've got listeners calling you and telling you how amazing you are, you know, I think there's a little bit of that that ticks the boxes. There's, you know, the marketing, the pictures, the promos. You know, back when I first started, you never saw radio people, but now they're across all the socials, they're doing television commercials, they're in magazines. They're very well covered. So I think for the individuals that need that influx of validation, radio certainly takes that box. But because of the behind the scenes and the sort of constantly questioning yourself and having a program brand manager or content director or whatever you sort of want to call them, constantly then questioning you and how you're doing it and how you're executing a piece of content. And let's be honest, it is all subjective. It's only in these past few years that we've been able to get this real time streaming and consumption data from audience, but years ago, you just had to believe you were funny, or you just had to believe that you were making a good point, and that was going to carry you on through until you got the ratings numbers back. So it's something that takes the immediate box of, you know, getting that listener love and all that, but I don't think it necessarily helps the individuals, especially the ones that are sort of selling their soul for the industry and not being their authentic self. I think when they've got to go home and turn the lights off and they lay their head down on the pillow, that's when it all sort of starts to go pear shaped. You know, if you haven't been your authentic self, you're questioning yourself. You're questioning the way you said something. Or there's even those individuals that do get that instant bad feedback, and that's just enough to sort of blow their minds up. So yeah, I think that's where it's like this constant push and pull of validation and questioning, validation and questioning

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  11:56  
transcription of the sound off. Podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page, the sound off podcast with Matt Cundill, so

Matt Cundill  12:17  
I don't have any empirical data to back up what I'm about to say, but it certainly seems that the people in radio who you know have care and compassion and degrees of empathy wind up being shown the door at some point and leaving behind. You know some of the and you've used the word snake ear. I'm trying to think of a better word from that, but some people who are less than nice seem to be in radio for the longest and hang around the most. Do you have any theory on why that might be?

Radio Girl  12:46  
I think it's male dominated. I think there's this sort of mateship and back patting that happens at the top. I think that that has a large part to do with it. I think that empathy, especially in the radio industry is being seen as a weakness, which is interesting, because, again, with no empirical data, as you mentioned, you look at the podcasting sphere, and it seems like the ones that are showing empathy and letting you be more vulnerable are actually the ones that are killing it. So I think it's also a protection of I think some of those empathetic individuals were also very great at their job. And I think you saw people that were sort of not as great, but could kind of do the back slapping. They saw those people as threats and sort of cut them down at the knees like they never really let them get past that glass ceiling, because you have to have allies to get ahead. And especially as I can only speak from my perspective, which is a woman, and it was like, it's interesting, because my next episode is about how the different genders treated me, and it wasn't all roses and sunshine for either side, and nor was it all hell for either side, but it's just so interesting because the men would sort of joke with you and pat your back, but when you'd say, hey, I want to do operation skills. Hey, I'm going to be the next Content Director, they look at you like, Oh, cute. You know what I mean. Or the women who have been pitted against each other for their whole career, then aren't really the ones that want to set you up either, because they may be threatened by your success. But then, when you watch the way they've been treated this entire time, it's not even surprising. So I think there's just a whole mess of factors that goes into why the snaky or more toxic ones sort of are around forever, and why those people that put their neck out for other individuals or showed that empathy are also shown the door because they just make easy targets. Yeah, it seems that

Matt Cundill  14:35  
bad behavior does get rewarded, and the industry remains very male dominated. And you know, for years we've been saying, oh, let's change that. And it's not really

Radio Girl  14:44  
changing. No, it's not. I mean, I think there's more female producers, per se. But once you go to the top, I cannot think of very many program brand managers, and I cannot think of any VPS, you know what I mean, and things of that nature that are really. Mesley at the top of their game. And I'm not saying there's none. I'm just telling you I can't think of any. But I could name a dozen men off the top of my head, and men where I think, how did you get away with this so long? You know, someone once described to me, they said that programming, because this was in a radio station, and they were from a different department, but they said programming is the land that time forgot, and I went, Yes, yes, it is. You know, it was just so interesting to hear someone in my own building say the sentiment to me. And I thought nailed it.

Matt Cundill  15:30  
Any desire to be in management? Yes,

Radio Girl  15:34  
absolutely, you know, I always wanted to sort of be the change I wanted to see. I want to be ahead of programming. I want to make the huge programming decisions I want to I don't want to be so high up that I no longer have a say in the day to day content and things that happen and in those daily decisions like I can honestly say I really love being still sort of involved. But I would love to be management. I think I would make an amazing manager. Not that this is a sort of job interview, but, and, you know, maybe that's part of this podcast as well, because it's made me question my own trajectory. And I go, why haven't I made it? You know, am I not good enough that can't be it? You know what? I mean, it just can't be so, yeah, I would love to be management one day, and hopefully sort of be a force to reckon with and know that that I've got a team that backs me, but it's like, the higher you go, the more potential white anting there is, the more that people are just trying to just hang that shit on you. That's what I found personally. But I haven't given up yet. You know, hence the anonymity.

Matt Cundill  16:35  
How many times have you had your butt slapped? Oh,

Radio Girl  16:39  
my God, more times than I can count, I mean, and just so openly, just so openly, like in the middle of a station. I remember in the middle of a Christmas party one time, and this was years ago, but it was right in the middle, like we were all just standing around. Some of us were smoking cigarettes on a rooftop Christmas party, and one of them slaps my ass as he walks away. And I actually made a point to say, you know, you guys will never know what it's like to be joking with your colleagues and have someone slap you on the ass as they walk away. And the shy ones kind of looked away and they didn't know what to do, and nobody reacted. And I kind of then felt bad for making them uncomfortable. I had just had my ass slap, but I had to go, Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to make a thing of it, you know, and then make a joke and saunter off, but oh my god, more times than I can even quantify, to be honest, after 15 years,

Matt Cundill  17:27  
and that particular person, do you know what role they're in right now?

Radio Girl  17:30  
I don't know, not with that one, the one that I mentioned, that was in front of the station that then became my boss, is now doing very well in a market far away. I don't know how to sort of describe it, but killing it. I don't recall where the one from the Christmas party is at the moment, I didn't keep up with that one.

Matt Cundill  17:52  
You make reference to giving up a life overseas. What was that life like? Yeah,

Radio Girl  17:57  
it was good. You know, I followed someone over there, and I had no intention of actually being in radio. My first interview for radio was for a completely different job. I said, you know, I want to be this, but I think at the moment, my schedule is wide open, and I think I would be good at this particular role, you know, and from then on, it was just love at first cross. I never went back. So I can honestly, see I never went into radio with the intention of doing radio, but now I just haven't stopped. So, you know, I have an accent, sort of wherever I land now, because I'm just one of those people that's from everywhere and nowhere. So it's interesting. It's an easy target. You know, I don't know if you've ever had perceptuals done. I don't know if that's what they call them in your markets, but my two biggest perceptuals When I was on air was I sound cool and I sound annoying. I can credit both of those with the North American

Matt Cundill  18:49  
accent. How can women in radio support one another?

Radio Girl  18:54  
You know, sometimes it's listening, sometimes it's barracking for the people that aren't around, I think that the people that are complicit in hearing someone be spoken badly about or watching someone getting white anted but not wanting to get involved are just as bad as the ones that are getting involved. I know I've stuck my neck out there, and I know I've absolutely gotten queued up for it, but I also know that I need to be able to sleep at night. So that's always the way I've operated. I never looked for a fight. But I can honestly say I don't mind a bit of conflict, but I'd say that the individuals and the women that are sort of and again, I almost feel bad saying this, because you're watching these people get pitted against each other constantly, and you're watching people with a finite amount of opportunities come their way. So again, I almost feel guilty, even though I've been at the receiving end of not having support. It's like that fine balance of supporting other people while also, you know, looking out for yourself in your own interests. But I think that would be a big one for me, is that support that's present that you're not around to hear.

Matt Cundill  20:00  
Her. You clearly love radio. What keeps pulling you back in

Radio Girl  20:06  
sometimes, and as I'm sort of doing my thoughts and my voice notes for this podcast, I keep asking myself the same thing. But you know, I do love the people. Yes, it's a viper den, but there are some wild personalities and some fun personalities, and I've had some beautiful connections. And again, it goes back to that I like control. I mean, I don't know someone that's spent time as an executive producer that wants to go on to be a brand manager that doesn't like control, but I love that. I think it is such a privilege to be able to shape people's thoughts and actions in the way that they view this world, especially in a time where we're seeing the best and the worst of it get displayed on our televisions and come through our radio and it's a time when people are their most divisive. I think it's really great to just be able to be an ear for someone and to be that mate in the car and really through covid, that was the most difficult time in radio, I think, for a lot of people. And you know, you're having grown people call you on the phone and they're crying and they're so raw in their emotion, but there is such a privilege that comes with being that person that they're turning to that I just, I think it's amazing, and I think that's what keeps me coming back for more, and that connection to listeners, you know, you do these local stories. I remember, there was a woman who was dying of cancer, and she just wanted to be on the race. She always wanted to do radio, so we set up a whole show for her. We went to her, and it was beautiful, and she was funny, and we still maintained our station credo, you know, we didn't turn over to, you know, sort of a Chicken Soup for the Soul show of that day. We really just remained ourselves and let her join us. And it's like, these people, I've ended up going to funerals of listeners, and being at these we went to weddings of listeners. It's like, it's just this ability to connect with people and shape thought, which I think is such a privilege to be a part of.

Matt Cundill  22:09  
If you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about radio culture today, what would it be?

Radio Girl  22:16  
I think exactly what I'm doing. I wish that I could put my face out there and put my name out there, and maybe I will. I don't know. I just at this moment, I'm not comfortable doing that, because I feel like I would just totally get chopped down and blacklisted from the industry, and that's what I would like to change. I think, wouldn't it be nice if we could just tell people our lived experience and not be held accountable like it was our fault. I didn't ask for my ass to get slapped, or my face to be touched, or my whatever to be whatever it's like. That's what I wish I could change. I wish that the inner workings of programming weren't such a dirty little secret that we couldn't talk

Matt Cundill  22:54  
about radio. Girl, thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Radio Girl  22:59  
My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Matt Cundill  23:02  
Life of a radio girl is available wherever you get your podcast, and it is hosted by a great Canadian company called transistor.fm

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  23:09  
the sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan cerminsky, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aidan glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com you.