Norma Jean Belenky: Where's the Money?

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Norma Jean belenke is the host of pod biz, a newly launched podcast about podcasting and business. Along with co host John Kiernan, they're answering the question, where's the money in podcasting? Now I could just ask her that question, and we'd be off on the adventure of a lifetime. But you know me well enough, after nine years of speaking to people that I'm always interested in the back story, the one that led her through places like pod bean right up to her own njb Media, which is where she is today. Just take note that I've listed many of the success stories she references in this episode, and I put links to them on the episode page at soundoff podcast.com and also in the show notes, what I'm basically telling you is you don't have to write anything down. I've done all the homework for you, and now Norma Jean belenke joins me from Lisbon. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the progress of the new show. Pod biz,

Norma Jean Belenky  1:06  
Hi, Matt. How's it going? It's so weird to be on the other side of the mic. I gotta say like I'm feeling a little bit awkward, not gonna lie. But I love your show, and I love how just, you know, you deep dive, and it's so fun to hear profiles and just the history and backstory of people within podcasting, but also the greater audio space. It's a really fun listen, and I'm grateful to be here.

Matt Cundill  1:28  
I think one of the things that we need to qualify with the audience, before we even get into a conversation that goes super deep, is just how many places on this planet you have lived?

Norma Jean Belenky  1:39  
Oh, gosh, a lot. I've lived a lot of places. I've lived a few places. I've done a few things

Matt Cundill  1:46  
that leaves you with such a huge global perspective, because when we talk about business, I lived in New York, I lived in LA, I spent some time in Chicago. But that's not the case with you. You've lived in many

Norma Jean Belenky  1:55  
corners of the planet. I think I'm on seven, working on eight. Yeah, absolutely. I'm now based on Europe. I spent the last 15 years before that primarily based within Asia and APAC. So I definitely have had the opportunity to have a lot of experience as a lot of people haven't both work wise, both culture wise and personal development wise, and just to kind of experience different viewpoints within the world, and how people communicate and how people live is really special. And I have to remind myself sometimes that sometimes, you know, abundance and success and riches are not strictly monetary. You know, of course, it's nice to have money in the bank, and also I've just gotten to meet incredible people and do some really fun

Matt Cundill  2:41  
stuff. That's a very yoganic approach. Yoganic I don't think I've heard that I feel like I'm on a yoga retreat right now. I love that. I love

Norma Jean Belenky  2:51  
that I'll be on a yoga retreat next week. So I'm very excited. How many times a week do you do it? Go on a yoga retreat? Just yoga in general. Oh, I don't actually do yoga that much. I am very lazy, not gonna lie, I'm kind of a lazy meditation gal. I lean and am drawn much more toward music and singing mantra, and I have a very dedicated meditation practice. So I meditate daily, for sure, and that really drives my life. It sets the tone for the day, of course. And you know, I do some meditation, that's mindfulness meditation, but I also do some real esoteric down the rabbit hole, specific mantras and Koreas for specific things in my life that I want to clear or bring about. I'm really grateful that I've had a lot of different teachers and experiences in my life in that way, separate from podcasting. A lot of people in podcasting don't know about my other life. I used to run yoga world music festivals and make art, and I've made a lot of music as well, yeah. And so I

Matt Cundill  3:52  
thought it was really important to establish that, like, right out of the gate, so we don't get halfway through the show before people start to say, oh, that's why she's here, and that's how she got here.

Norma Jean Belenky  4:02  
There's someone who I know who started a company called Passion Planner, maybe even almost like 10 years ago at this point. And her name's Angel Trinidad, and she always says that the dots always connect in hindsight. And so I think you know when you live a life that's driven by passion and creativity and purpose, whether that's bringing branding and marketing to a company, or, you know, selling your own art. It's something where you have to follow that excitement, and then when you're looking back, you're like, oh, yeah, this led to this, and that led to that. And I learned this here, and then I'll use that there. And so I think it's something where it's really important to be compassionate with yourself and give yourself a break future. Me listen to this because you're you need that reminder. We

Matt Cundill  4:44  
didn't have a lot of people that maybe we knew who grew up and said, I when I grow up, I want to be a podcaster, unless you're Gen Z, which I'm sure that a few people have said that. But when you were growing up, was it music that you wanted to get into?

Norma Jean Belenky  4:59  
I don't. Know, I kind of wanted to be a lawyer for a while. I got into a bunch of law schools. I thought I was going to do that. I always loved saying but I didn't feel confident. I think I grew up in Los Angeles, and that comes with a whole host of many things. Los Angeles isn't like the rest of the world in many ways, and so I felt like to pursue music. I had to fit into a certain kind of box and I had to do and be many other things that weren't necessarily true. And so I didn't do that when I was younger. And then when I was about 25 I was living in South Korea teaching English. The economy crashed the year I graduated university, and I just started writing all these songs, and I went on a holiday to Bali, and I met some friends who were artists and musicians, and they said, Oh, we want to start writing songs. I said, Oh, I just wrote all these little songs in my apartment, and I sang them one of my songs, and they were like, oh, no, these are, like, real songs. You need to make an album. Our friend just made an album. It's not that hard. Turns out their friend was, like, pretty well known, kind of well a well known, established musician. So but that kind of led me down the path of, you know, pursuing my creative interests. And I launched my first album before I ever played a gig. If that tells you how I do things.

Matt Cundill  6:11  
You teach English. You use English on a podcast.

Norma Jean Belenky  6:14  
Yeah, exactly. I think it's all about creative expression. And I only taught English for two years, from 2010 to 2012

Matt Cundill  6:23  
and you sing, you're behind a microphone. You see, you're coming with all the components. And you know that I'm leading you to the next sort of part here is like, what was the first podcast experience for you?

Norma Jean Belenky  6:34  
Gosh, the first podcast experience was like, You mean

Matt Cundill  6:39  
listening could be Yeah, we all have a gateway drug.

Norma Jean Belenky  6:43  
Sure. I think some of the first podcast experiences I ever had because I've lived abroad in many countries, which sounds exotic and really, well, I keep wanting to say exotic, but it sounds like adventurous and whatever. But there is a loneliness that comes from living in a country that is not a culture where you're from, there's a lot of loneliness that can occur, especially when you're young and and on your own. And I spend a lot of time alone, not necessarily by choice. Now it's by choice, but previously, I didn't feel that way, and when I was living in New Zealand, I discovered the apple podcasts app on my phone, and then that opened up an entire world of wow, people and content, and they're making cool stuff. And, you know, one of the first podcasts I think I ever listened to was strangers by Leah Tao, which is this beautiful, you know, narrative nonfiction podcast where she really just dives into her own journey and the biographies of beautiful, interesting people she comes across, and that felt really unique. And I loved how intimate it felt. So that was really cool. And I had actually heard of podcasting before, but I'm a little bit of a late adopter, and somebody in maybe around 2012 had mentioned a podcast to me because they had biked from Canada to maybe Panama or Argentina, and they were saying how they followed some other people who had done that and made this audio podcast about it. And I was like, Well, what's that ever gonna, you know? And it was before, like, I think what they were describing was a few years prior, and it was before Apple podcast was standard, stock standard on iPhones. And so they described, you know, this very clunky process of finding this thing and downloading these audio files and keeping them on some sort of player with them while they were bike packing, you know, down this intercontinental road on this trip. And it just sounded so artisanal. I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't, okay, this is too hipster for me, you know, I don't know it just it felt a little bit foreign. And then when Apple podcasts and that app really just popped up, it really, you know, I think at the time, I didn't have an iPhone, that's what it was. And so then when I got an iPhone, I I realized, oh, wow, this is really a whole world out there. You know, I have one big regret in my life. I have this theory you can only regret one thing at a time, and so I let myself have one regret, and it's not podcasting, actually, it's Bitcoin. So if anybody ever asks, I wish I had bought Bitcoin in 2012 I told those people, that's not real money whatever, and it's worth a lot now I should have bought it. But at the same time, podcasts entered my zeitgeist, I think when they were supposed to. And then, you know, I think, like everybody, right, as soon as you discover the world of podcasts, you binge. I mean, it's like falling in love. You just want to, like, become, you know, absorb yourself into the world of that other person, or in this case, an entire media of perspectives and shows and the intimacy that comes with listening to content and feeling like it's for you on the same device, you speak to your parents and your kids on your significant others on it's really you feel connected.

Matt Cundill  9:54  
I have similar regrets, and that's not getting the Bitcoin for Gen X people. Maybe you've heard. Of it. It's called Apple stock. Oh,

Norma Jean Belenky  10:04  
yeah, no, that's, I wish, yeah, I wish that too. I wish I'd, uh, you know, but no, it's really just the one. I only let myself have one. And I was like, That's not real money. And if I had just spent like, $200 on Bitcoin in 2012 you know, I'd be in a different situation.

Matt Cundill  10:19  
And that time in New Zealand, by the way, you were working for a TV station, and you were in charge of making some money.

Norma Jean Belenky  10:26  
I was, yeah, I did business development for media startup, which was a really wild, fun ride. I have a particular skillset where I'm really project based, and it's really about the people that I work with and doing really interesting, fun things. And so for me, you know, I was living in New Zealand, I was singing jazz and working at an accounting firm and having a fun life. And because of my media background, I'd done some media launches and digital media prior. And yeah, the Christchurch star company, the Star newspaper, down in Christchurch, they were like, Hey, we're launching a startup. We think you're a good fit. We're in the South Island of New Zealand. Just come meet us for a drink. So I did. And then I yeah, I just I, it was great ride. It was really fun. I worked with great people. Once again, it was like, I love a cowboy moment, you know, I love a bootstrap moment, where you're like, Okay, here's what we've got, here's the potential, here's what we could do. Let's go, you know, I think that's that's really fun. I've done a lot of that in my younger years. And I think when you work for companies that are in a particular growth moment, whether it's at the very beginning or, you know, in that like zero to one moment, or even like a zero to two or three moment, it's definitely one of those things where you gain skills that teach you, you know, of course, you have to hustle and blah, blah, blah. But it's also that like you get to create things and use your creativity in a way that when you do enter super well more established companies that have, you know, structure in place and maybe more bureaucracy, you know what is possible and what could be done and how to launch big initiatives, which is really fun. How'd you get on a pod bean? I loved it. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it was, I think I confirmed with them, like I accepted the offer. March 19 of 2020, oh, okay, that's an interesting time. It was, and I said, Hey, I'm gonna go get on a plane to Indonesia today and go run this yoga and world music festival before my start date flatten the curve, you know. I arrived in Indonesia, and the borders closed that day. And that was wild, you know. And I think we all thought like, oh, you know, this can't really go on. But, you know, I think that as a company, they're very growth oriented, and they, you know, saw my potential, and they said, you know, we think you're a good fit, and we've gone fully remote. So yeah, you might as well join the team. We still think you're a good fit. So that was lucky. And then because of my event background, and because I think I have just such an entrepreneurial spirit, I'm like, Okay, here's what we're working with, you know, what can we do with it? Right? How much gas is in the car? How far can we go? Kind of a thing, I was able to launch the events vertical, for them to produce, you know, industry wide events that were even agnostic to their platform, that highlighted creators and, you know, the kind of voices and the industry conversations that we wanted to have. And that was really lucky. I think it was a combination of, you know, my skill set and working with people who had vision to kind of let me run with it in a way. And that morphed into many different things. I eventually took over their official podcast. I think we did 150 episodes. And so that was a really fun ride, once again, working with great people. I think I just got, I want to say, really lucky, but I think it's also that after, you know, after a while, you kind of know what kind of people you want to work with, and you can feel out the culture of a company pretty quickly.

Matt Cundill  13:50  
And the pod being people were great, right? Yeah, absolutely,

Norma Jean Belenky  13:55  
you know, I think it was something where everybody really showed up. And that means that great work can get

Matt Cundill  14:01  
done, and timing is everything too. I mean, oh my goodness. Well, we're fully remote. Anyways, welcome aboard.

Norma Jean Belenky  14:11  
It was just one of those things. And then I, you know, and then through a series of things, I ended up, I think, by the end of my time there, I was running enterprise sales for a pack and Europe, and running the official podcast and producing all the virtual events with a lot of marketing attached to that, and speaking at conferences representing the company. There was a lot, you know, it really grew into something meaty and fun.

Matt Cundill  14:34  
And now, when you talk meaty and fun in 2025 it is clearly making money in podcasting, which has been a mystery for people for so many

Norma Jean Belenky  14:43  
years. It has, yeah, you've been to podcasting conferences, right? I've been to podcasting conferences. We met at a podcasting conference. It's something where there's a lot of like, industry, thought leadership, chatty, chatty, chatty, and there's a lot of stuff that happens on stage, and there's a lot of stuff that happens off stage. And. I think I really felt like there was an opportunity to have transparent conversations about money, right? Where's the money? How are creators making money? How are businesses making money? Some people were really grateful have shared how much money they're making. I'm like, spill, spill the tea. You know, give the hot take. And I think that as an emerging industry that's unregulated, right? Podcasting is an open medium. I want to hear how much people are making, right? In our first three episodes, we had the VP of product from a cast talking about how platforms are tailored for creators to make money. We had Adam McNeil from adopter, who basically talked about how he helps brands make money with podcast ads, and how he steers them into good ad buys, right? And how they actually get ROI for those ad buys. And then we had an independent creator, Danielle Besley from sex ed with dB, and she makes upwards of $140,000 a year from a single feed podcast that averages 11 to 1200 downloads per episode. That's wild, right? When you think about that obviously, you know, she's creating tremendous sponsor value, and that's the fun conversation that we get to have. But I love hearing kind of like the cowboy, like hacks, or how the sausage is made, or, you know, how people figured stuff out, because we're not in an industry where everybody has it streamlined. We're all still kind of making it up. And I want to say that people think that may be true in terms of indie versus, you know, maybe more corporate, but I don't know. I think time will tell

Matt Cundill  16:27  
money's odd. It has a lot in common with trust, so both are tough to acquire, and both can disappear very, very quickly. So I'll just give an example here, we'll use my company. This show you're on right now does not make money. I spend way more money on all the tools and toys to make a great audio slash video product. However, with the product itself, when it goes out, I'm gaining a lot of trust, and I get a lot of people who will call, and there's a lot of sales activity in order for me to sell some of my other wares, whether that's a voiceover or whether that's, you know, some podcast consultation to watch their show, or for podcast monetization on a network. So I can't really calculate it in front of an accountant, because they would just show me all red, but I know that I'm operating here in the

Norma Jean Belenky  17:17  
black. Absolutely. I think it's interesting, right? Podcasting, in terms of utilizing a podcast for entrepreneurship or top of funnel, it's something where you're not necessarily gonna see direct click buys, right? It's not ads, it's thought leadership. It's Hey, you're in the audio industry. I'm in the audio industry. You're gonna listen to my show, and then when it's time for you to hire a marketing expert and somebody to really launch audience dev for your client that has budget. You're gonna think of Norma Jean. When you want a really great voice, you're gonna be like, Oh God, I just love Matt's intro. It's like, butter, right? He has such a big radio background and he's available for podcast work. I think it's about positioning, for sure.

Matt Cundill  17:56  
Also think of Dave Jackson here when he has to remind me and everybody else all the time when he says, We're not here to monetize a podcast, you're here to monetize an audience. So back to the person with the 1100 downloads. It's not about a large audience, it's about the right audience.

Norma Jean Belenky  18:11  
It's about the right audience. And I mean, she's a particularly fantastic example of going hard on your niche. That's what we say on pod biz, go hard on your niche. Maybe we'll make merch, but sex provider companies like toys, education, whatever they can advertise, right? She made that very clear on our podcast. They're kind of blacklisted from meta and Google for good reason, right? I mean, you know, gotta keep the kids safe. So that presents her and her podcast and her educational background. She I think she has a master's in sex education, like she's really educated on the subject. It really offers her an opportunity to provide value for those people who have no other outlets, or minimal or limited outlets, of what they could do to reach audiences that are excited, are having open conversations. And I think, you know, in spaces where public access is limited, that's where you get a lot more word of mouth. So each person, maybe, instead of telling one or two people, might tell five or 10, right? She also has an incredible presence through social media, through newsletter, through live events, and so it's not necessarily just the downloads, it's the package and the value overall that she's providing to sponsors, for sure.

Matt Cundill  19:23  
And such a great analogy. You just sort of tipped me off here about one of the things that people should envision before they get started with a podcast, and that's the convention. And so you're talking about sex toys, and there's a sex toys convention right now. So imagine that convention. How much does it cost to put a logo at the front of the room? Let's say maybe there are 1100 people showing up for that convention. Maybe there's 2000 people who are going to hawk their wares there. What is the price of that? I know we talked 70 $25 CPM, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But really, what is the value inside this niche? Yeah. Yeah,

Norma Jean Belenky  20:00  
right, absolutely. And I think when you have a niche that really has limited access to media, specifically in her case, each impression is so much more valuable. And that was just such a fun example to share it with people, right? Because everybody's wondering, like, how do I make it? What are my options? What are best practices. Best practices are what work for you. We're still there, actually. I mean, you know, people like, how long should a podcast be? I'm like, How long is a piece of string? It depends. I mean, you know, of course, there's best practices, right? And we can talk about them till the cows come home. How long are people's commutes? Is your target demographic? You know, are you seeing drop off? What are your consumption rates. Let's have a look. But also, I think it's that there's still that opportunity for creativity and uniqueness within podcasting. And I think it's it's a fun medium for that reason,

Matt Cundill  20:53  
it still feels like when people ask me, How do I make money at this I say, Well, you've got to go look under that rock over there. There there might be some money. And then look at the other rock over there too, and there might be some money there too. And also you might want to deep sea, dive at the bottom of the ocean, and there might be some there too. I still feel like that's the conversation we're having, because it doesn't feel automatic. It doesn't feel like you can write a book, you can definitely start a podcast about it like you have, but I'm not sure that you could write a book.

Norma Jean Belenky  21:24  
It's moving. It's still in transit. Yeah, we're still, we're still, I look if we talk about ads and impressions, like you said, right? CPM, Ad Tech, I mean, I love it when the ad tech guys or people who sell ads come on, because then we can really nerd out on ads. And that's a great conversation to have for many reasons. And it's not the only conversation. What I've been really surprised by, and this is just, you know, the past two years, really, and the past six months, really loud subscriptions. And of course, subscriptions have been going on for years. There's been Patreon, there's lots of products built into platforms. There are ways that you can monetize private feeds through Super Cast things like that, and then Apple launched subscriptions. So now we're having that conversation, and now we're seeing some really fun big numbers from some podcasts that have big followings, and it's like, oh, that money goes directly to that studio, wow. And it's not based on how many ad dollars were sold. It's based on how many people love this content.

Matt Cundill  22:32  
Help me get a divorce from the download. Help me with this. I

Norma Jean Belenky  22:38  
think it's important to remember who your podcast is for. If you're looking at like a Joe Rogan or an Alex Cooper, of course, you know you're going to be selling based off of impressions. And also, I, like a loyal listener, right? I will take emotional stability and somebody who really loves me over a bunch of first dates. And I think if we're if we're counting downloads, right, it's like dating app matches almost. And I think for people who love the medium, which really is most people who listen to podcasts, they are your Saturday night steady, calling you up, making sure you're free, calling the restaurant, making a reservation date. They want to be a significant part of your journey and your show.

Matt Cundill  23:26  
Gonna think back to the person who just had 1100 downloads in a field. Danielle, you're

Norma Jean Belenky  23:31  
getting it. You're getting a lot of shout outs on this podcast. Sex Ed with dB, definitely.

Matt Cundill  23:37  
Well, it's easier to manage and monetize than it is, let's say a podcast with 110,000 downloads, which is not with a general subject matter. I've had some podcasts with six figure downloads where it was strife and difficulty and we couldn't figure out where the money was, and there's too many people on the show, and it becomes a big headache. And Danielle, it's wonderful. We know what we're gonna get.

Norma Jean Belenky  24:05  
Well, it's also like, Who are you serving? And people love predictability. I mean, they may not want predictability from you all the time, right? Like, if it's your Friday night gal or your, you know, Saturday night date that's consistent every week, they're not taking you to the same restaurant, but you know you've got a date. And so I think it's really important to have a combination of things to be excited about and things that feel predictably safe. You're gonna get your podcast at the same time every week, on the same day every week, you know what you're getting and you're still excited to hear it. I think that's a really important distinction, and it's also really important to think about who your podcast is for, right? If it's for everybody, you know, we could talk about geo targeting for ads. And you know, once you start hitting certain milestones, and also, sex ed with DB isn't selling based on a download number, they're selling based on a package that provides value to sponsors. And I think. When you are an independent creator, well, really any creator, but when you are an independent creator, especially who has a niche that you can optimize for your audience, who also loves and is really into that niche, it's super important to package things right, like you are your own media company. Be your own media executive. Don't look at a specific number, but look at overall value. Look at overall impressions, look at overall impact. I think that's really important. You know, when we're talking specifically about sponsors, I want impact, right? If it's my brand, I don't necessarily want to know so many people heard it, I want to know it's so many places, and this is who it's going out to, and these are all the places it is. And it's featured in this newsletter, and this great thing was written about it, and it's a free giveaway at this special pub quiz for people who really love this show and this niche and this specific community, and they feel like they're a part of it, and those people are also going to be ambassadors for your brand as well. We've seen this happen right where people love a show so much they appreciate the sponsor because it enables the show as well.

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Matt Cundill  26:42  
is the mid roll, the host read mid roll, still the most valuable piece, the most important piece when it comes to monetization. Trying to think of the word is that the

Norma Jean Belenky  26:51  
like the premium Yes, at the premium spot, Well, it's interesting. It's very, I mean, it's very interesting. I've definitely heard from a few people that baked in is premium, right? And I think, you know, I think it depends on the show. I like a mid roll. I also like a pre roll. Obviously, post is not going to hit, right, because your consumption numbers are going to dictate but, you know, I think in terms of advertising, host read is great because it's, you know, and Adam McNeil talked about this as well on his episode. It's really that it enhances the content, it adds to it instead of taking away. And I think that when we're talking about content in terms of ads, you want ads that feel native. You want ads that really enhance the experience, that create community, not just around the show and the creators, but around the products that enable that show and those creators to do what they love and to share that work.

Matt Cundill  27:48  
As we are recording this right now, there are, I think, you put about three episodes and you've recorded a few more, I assume, and so just with those conversations and from memory right now, like, what are some of the trends that you're seeing with the conversations that you're having about the future of monetization, or what is something that, oh, this is interesting. This is coming up that I don't think we're talking enough about.

Norma Jean Belenky  28:11  
I was really surprised that some people who I would assume would go hard on ads and tech and ad tech and impressions, maybe downloads, but maybe, you know also, listeners and multi platform went really hard on subscriptions. They like, doubled down, and they were like, subscriptions community. And so I think we're seeing this kind of full circle thing, right? Of you have to take care of your audience, and we're seeing it from everybody, right? I think that the number one thing is the value proposition. It's an odd thing to say, but in terms of trends, it's like you can't ignore your audience. You cannot ignore the value that you have to consistently give them, and that will, in turn bring value through ad dollars, through subscriptions, through sponsorship, through events, through merch, but you have to continually be in the spirit of service to the people you serve, and that's so hard to keep your eye on the ball on it's difficult to consistently have that in mind.

Matt Cundill  29:09  
So we were both at the London podcast show where everybody was talking about video, non stop and endlessly,

Norma Jean Belenky  29:16  
just really quickly. People do also talk about video, of course, and in terms of monetization, yes. I mean, that is definitely part of the conversation YouTube clips. But once again, that's value.

Matt Cundill  29:29  
Yeah. I mean, I think we're well past this idea of yes or no or should you, and the answer is still yes and no to whether or not you want to do video, but I feel that from the business side, it's better to do it. Oh yes. And

Norma Jean Belenky  29:44  
look here we are having this conversation about video while we're on video. So let's start there, because we know it's a necessary tool. I was gonna say necessary evil, but it's it's not evil. It's just more labor intensive. It costs a lot more to get video. To look good than it costs to get audio to sound good. It takes more people, it takes more time, it takes more effort, it takes more energy. It takes more resources. You know, a good camera nowadays you can use your phone, and also sometimes you want really good footage, and it's definitely interesting in terms of tools and what it takes to get right. It's a lot easier to get really good audio than really good video in terms of cost. So that's kind of what I would say is number one, when I talk to people about it, it's interesting, right? Because I think that having a clip strategy is really important, and that's what I do with a lot of my clients, right? Maybe we have the full episodes and video, maybe we don't, but we utilize a lot of those clips for social, for the website, for FAQ, for knowledge base articles, you know, all of that kind of stuff to really add value. So that's an important way that video is being used. Maybe it's B roll, you know, whatever. And also, if people want good video, then, like, if they want really good video, you're entering Hollywood. That's where you're getting into full, proper film production for some stuff. You know, of course, you could be more down the YouTube Creator rabbit hole. And also, I think if we're looking at that pure, you know, Panda cam kind of moment, that's not what podcasting is, in my opinion. And so if we're looking at good video for podcasting, especially on that branded business side, it's just like, yeah, absolutely. How big is your budget?

Matt Cundill  31:27  
Well, you're very polite, by the way, to say yes, and because I'm happy to also insert a yes. But so a podcast that caught my eye on video, I said, Oh, I'm going to listen to that. That's going to be good. I listened to it. It was not very good, and it was because, to my eye, it told more of a story than the audio did.

Norma Jean Belenky  31:47  
Isn't that the worst? Sorry, I don't mean to jump in, but I gotta just say It's so disappointing. It's like unwrapping a candy bar, and it's like underwhelming, because you want great content, and yet it's presented in this way where, like, that's what you've gotten, that's what you bought with your time, with your seconds, with your minutes, and it just face plants in your ears.

Matt Cundill  32:12  
It was really good content for my eyes. I happen to be in the car right now, and this is not very good as I'm listening to this. And I think that's I think when you make a choice to go into doing this, they're not the same. The product that we're making right now is going to be different to the audio than it will be for the video. So thank you for watching, by the way, it's gonna be probably like seven minutes shorter on the audio side, because we are creating an audio experience. I do it differently. Not sure if it's the right thing or wrong thing to do, but I have to build something for the ears, and I'm trying to do something for the eyes as well, which is why I shaved this morning. I think that's the

Norma Jean Belenky  32:49  
best strategy. First of all, good job. Looking good. Looking ready for camera ready. And also, I think that's the best strategy, right? If it were video first, we wouldn't call it a podcast. I think video is complimentary at this point, it's helpful. It has its own platforms and it does its own thing, but the consumption looks different, right? I'm not popping on a YouTube podcast to do the dishes, right? I'm popping on an audio podcast to do the dishes. You know? It's a secondary medium for when you are in another activity. I can't go for a hot girl walk and, like, watch a podcast that's not happening. And, you know, some players have it built in, and I find it annoying. I have to, like, shut my screen off. I'm like, stop using my battery. I'm on a hot girl walk. Just came

Matt Cundill  33:37  
back from vacation, saw family, and some of the extended family said, Oh, I'm watching your show. I said, you watch my show? I said, Yeah, well, sometimes I'll just, like, put it in my pocket and just listen to it on YouTube. And I got a lot of that. However, these people, they're not my audience. They're not actually what we're trying, what I'm trying to attract for my show. So I'm wondering, video things, great, I'm getting a little bit more attention, but is that the right

Norma Jean Belenky  34:03  
attention? It depends, right? I also wonder if they're paying for YouTube premium, because if they are, you can close your phone screen and it'll play audio. So I think that's also something that's interesting. And I think as human beings, right? I think as people, I think the way that economics work is that we're always pushing toward growth, right? Economies always have to grow a certain percentage every year. Industries always have to grow, careers have to grow and evolve. We're always pushing toward growth. And so when you think about that, the next evolution of podcasting, if we are pushing toward growth, would be video. But podcasting itself is an interesting medium, because sometimes growth doesn't always last. I mean, you know, in terms of monetization, like I've had some people come on and talk about the days of guarantees, when if you had a lot of downloads, networks and a lot of big companies would write you big checks, and they weren't always seeing those returns, and then that money dried up real quick. Yeah, so it's interesting to see how sometimes growth is a bubble and sometimes it's a wave. We

Matt Cundill  35:09  
also don't have any data about the number of people who do listen on YouTube, as opposed to watch, even though they say it's YouTube. And I would love to see that, you know, sort of come to fruition. But this conversation that we've had here for the last seven or eight minutes is the type of stuff that would make an advertiser go sideways because they're like, I can't figure it out. These people clearly don't have it figured out. I'm not gonna buy this. I'm gonna go spend my money somewhere else.

Norma Jean Belenky  35:35  
Well, no, I think they're I think they're paying for impressions, like when you're recording a video podcast, you're not like holding up, right? The what is it? Lucille Ball, Vita Vita Vegemite, right? You're not holding it up like today's podcast is brought to you by Vita vita vegman. It's not a TV show. And so I think that when we're talking about sponsorship, whether it's YouTube or through a classic directory, that conversation with the audience about the product is still the same, and so that I think it carries over, I want to say that impression is still as valuable. I mean, YouTube is its own beast. Obviously, it's not an audio first platform, and so as a result, we're going to see some interesting things in the next couple of years.

Matt Cundill  36:19  
Why did you want to dive into the deep end of podcast business. Several reasons.

Norma Jean Belenky  36:24  
Okay? Number one, I'm a very curious person. I always want to know who's doing what, and what the lay of the land is and how things work. And so I think money tells a specific story, right? It tells the story of where attention is, whether it's from ad dollars, whether it's from audiences, whether it's from, you know, the industry itself, it tells an interesting story, especially in terms of where people's careers and attention is as well. I think that's really fun. And I also think that money is serious, right? When we talk about podcasting, there's so much that could be said, right? That can be a little bit surface. That can be a little bit LA, Dee, da, buy this mic. Do that, start an email newsletter. But money talks, and so I think when we're talking about that conversation of like, where's the money, you know, that's where we start out. Like, Hey, Matt, where's the money in podcasting? I think just that kind of, like, you know, Record scratch moment, you know, just like, actually, let's have a really candid conversation of, like, how everyone's funding this and how it's funding them, and what that looks like, and what their professional journey looks like to get into the space. I think, I think it's really important. So that is pretty much the main site guys for why pod biz is specifically monetization focused. I also love talking to people. I also love thought leadership. I'm also, you know, like you, it's nice to be top of mind when people are thinking, okay, podcast marketing and strategy, audience growth. I'm gonna call Norma Jean. She has her own company, great or, Hey, we're doing something really big, and we may want somebody with her diverse skill set on our team. I just saw her in a clip last week. I think that that's it's really important to kind of keep your keep your name, keep your voice out there, in a way. And it's an interesting club in terms of the industry, of people who professionally work within podcasting, right? Because you have some people who created their own companies, started companies, offshoots of other companies, have big corporate careers. It's a very interesting, diverse group of people, and it's also not that big. And so it's nice to have intimate conversations with people, because it's small enough that tangentially, we all pretty much know of each other if we don't know each other. And so it's nice to bring a little bit more intention to specific conversations with

Matt Cundill  38:41  
people. Yeah. So it goes back to one of the things I always tell people, if you can't figure something out, follow the money

Norma Jean Belenky  38:49  
Absolutely. And I think a lot of the time people are kind of scared to ask how things work. A lot of my last role with POD beam is educational, right? Like, what is an RSS feed? How does dynamic ad insertion work? And to be honest, it's pretty new technology in the grand scheme of things. And it's not nice to feel stupid. It's not I don't like it when people use an acronym, and I don't know what they mean, right? Dai, Dai. And, you know, I think it's super important to make things inclusive and you know, and that goes for everything from the simple acronyms to, you know, what are the minimum number of downloads you need to join a network? How much are you actually making as an indie creator? And there's also that transparency as well that I really appreciate. We're still in an industry where people are happy to collaborate, and it's, it's still really fun and exciting to be in that energy and to work amongst it. What does dai stand for? Dynamic ad insertion?

Matt Cundill  39:49  
So I think it's dynamic audio insertion, just because I get people to think that way, because I want you to promote your own stuff as well. So if you don't have the ads sold, I always say, well, think of it as dynamic audio insertion. And why don't you promote your newsletter? Why don't you promote your website, or why don't you promote your subscriptions, or something like that. Exactly. We can't even agree on what the acronyms are,

Norma Jean Belenky  40:09  
hey, but we know what they do.

Matt Cundill  40:12  
Yeah, do we? I have such a hard time explaining what it is to people. You've already used the term baked in. I'm like, Oh, listen, if it's going to sit there forever, yeah, it's going to become very valuable,

Norma Jean Belenky  40:23  
right? Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that really depends on the genre of your podcast, right? Baked in is, is the gold standard, if you have current events or news podcast, nobody's going to listen to a sports. Well, maybe sports, but news, I mean, you're not going to go back and listen three weeks ago

Matt Cundill  40:41  
the news briefing update. Tell me about the production of your show. Who else is contributing to the show?

Norma Jean Belenky  40:48  
John Kiernan is my collaborator. John is the partner that I have for this project, and he is a good one to have. He owns a company called pod House Productions, and he and I worked really well together at pod bean. I think when you have really good working chemistry with somebody, you realize, you know, oh, hey, this is actually pretty great, and we can apply this to a lot of stuff. And so I can't remember who came up with the idea. To be honest, it might have been John, maybe it was me. Might have been John, but it's definitely one of those things where, you know, he's not on camera for every episode, but he is there for every episode, definitely. And I think also having a team, having somebody that you work with, really helps in terms of, you know, the emotional burden of like, oh, I made this thing. And then also, you know, just that accountability and also sharing the wins is a really important one as well. John, super talented.

Matt Cundill  41:43  
Yeah, I've got the same relationship with my producer, who I've been working with since 2009 and so shout out to Evan, who's going to be producing this at the very end.

Norma Jean Belenky  41:51  
Hey, Ev,

Matt Cundill  41:54  
how do you and John communicate? What are the things that he knows about you that you know he's just gonna do like, he's just gonna fix that. He's just gonna make happen. I think that's a John question.

Norma Jean Belenky  42:05  
The things I know about John are he strives for quality work like I do. I know the quality of his work. I know that we can safely communicate expectations and get stuff done. I think a lot of the time life gets in the way. And when you're working on something with someone, things can come up and make the process of getting work done complicated. And it's really important to have open, clear communication with people that you work with, and yeah, and just

Matt Cundill  42:36  
trust Yeah. And I raise this point because it's important to sound good. Oh yeah,

Norma Jean Belenky  42:44  
Evan, make us sound good.

Matt Cundill  42:48  
Since 2009 he's been doing the radio stuff and the podcast stuff now for me, and he knows how to make it, you know, sound really good. And I guess to my point is that you can't really make any money at this unless two things happen, and one of them is it sounds really good, like smooth in the ears, and there's something of value that we're talking about. And without those two things, I'm not sure you can make any money or have an audience to monetize.

Norma Jean Belenky  43:17  
Okay, what did you just say? Sounds really good. It's

Matt Cundill  43:20  
gotta sound good, and there's gotta be some value in there. Yeah,

Norma Jean Belenky  43:24  
I agree. I mean, I also think there's podcasts that their style is not to be as polished, so it's important to have that distinction, right? Because you have a radio background, I have a background where I'm like, hello, hello and welcome. And so I think it's important to distinguish style from quality. Some people have a style that's a little bit more casual. They're shopping stuff together real quick, but their audience still gets tremendous value out of it. So I think that that's a really important distinction. And also I absolutely agree you couldn't have said that better. I mean, I think that people want to hear great work, and that has value to them,

Matt Cundill  44:01  
for sure. It takes three years to build an audience. No pressure. Tell me about the long view for pod biz.

Norma Jean Belenky  44:09  
The long view for pod biz, I mean, for us, it's really thought leadership, you know, whether that is partnering with different companies within the podcasting space, different activations. I mean, for us, it's it's really about community. I think that that's a really big one. I have gotten so much from leaders within this industry who've been kind and generous, and I, in turn, have connected people that have been like, Wow, thank you. You know that conversation made me 30 grand, 50 grand. And I think we're still in that space of community being super, super valuable. So I think that I'm excited about the continuation of that, and I think the industry has really embraced the show. I feel so grateful, to be honest, because I think we took a particular angle, you know, we just cut in and we were like, Hey, show me the money. You know, like full Jerry Maguire. Style, right? Show me the money. And so I think that that can kind of be a little bit like bull in a china shop, like aggressive but, you know, we haven't come about it that way. We've come about it in terms of thought leadership and providing value to maybe it's an independent creator, maybe it's, you know, a leader within the podcasting industry. And so I think for us, we were very strategic about the kind of conversations we want to have and how it is sustainable, right? I definitely like you're asking, how's my production going? I don't want to be stressed. That's the number one thing in my life. I try to build systems that reduce stress, and so I'm multiple, multiple episodes deep in a backlog. I do not want to have to be like, Oh no, I don't have a guest for next week. Rolodex like that doesn't feel aligned for me. And I think in terms of the long term growth of the podcast, it's really about, you know, working and partnering with other podcast media leaders and brands to continue the conversation so we can all get paid. Really, that's kind of the message of the show, like, let's get you paid.

Matt Cundill  46:05  
I love that you said community, because community is definitely, we know it exists, but how and where are we all going to meet? Is that going to be something that the listeners are going to determine, or is that going to be something that you determine? Are we going to have a whatsapp channel? Are we going to have a Slack channel? Are we going to have a discord who decides, is it the listeners who will figure that out, or is that going to

Norma Jean Belenky  46:28  
be you? Oh, you actually want to know? Okay, great. I'm just thinking

Matt Cundill  46:31  
in your head here, because this is a point where people get to in their show. It's kind of like, well, I want I know there's a community here, but where do we gather? Oh, our community is

Norma Jean Belenky  46:40  
on LinkedIn, 100% right? Our community's thought leadership. We're on LinkedIn, right? Where, where the jobs are, where, where the money is. And if you think about social media in terms of B to B, it's LinkedIn. That's a huge one for us, right? I mean, you know, when I think about the footprint that I want to have within my professional career and the messaging that I want to communicate and the stories I want to tell and the work that I want to do. It's LinkedIn 100% we also have an email newsletter. We're also on YouTube, and that includes YouTube shorts and a whole clip strategy around that, for the indie creator, and for you know, some of those folks that are really going to resonate with the educational component of the show. Yeah, I'm sure there's opportunity for, you know, maybe a discord or even a WhatsApp group. But I also love in person, you know, I think we're really open to doing activations in person at podcasting conferences and industry events as well. And so I think that it's really for us about, you know, maintaining those relationships and continuing those conversations within the industry, because, as you and I both know that conversation about monetization and money and podcasting is just continuing to shift and change, and it's like the ground is, you know, constantly the tectonic plates are moving, you know, not a little bit, but a lot, all the time. And it's exciting. And, yeah, I'm just, I'm looking forward to that. Well, we have to listen to

Matt Cundill  48:01  
your show, because it's about business and money, and if you miss an episode, you'll miss out on the money, right?

Norma Jean Belenky  48:08  
Yeah, exactly. It's good for your wallet. And you're also coming up for an episode, so that is an important thing to mention as well. We were so excited, actually, when you agreed, and John and I just kept saying to each other, Captain Canada, who's coming out this week, Captain Canada. And we just, honestly, just got so excited about it. And, you know, I think just hearing what you've built and your journey within the industry has been really inspiring. Obviously, we're connected for, I think, a long time on LinkedIn before we actually met in person. And, you know, I really, I think, you know, just having people come on and share what their journeys look like has also been really, really important, because, like you said, podcasting is new. You ask people like, when was the first time you listened to a podcast, right? And so everybody's professional career of how they make money in podcasting, whether they're a show creator or whether they have a corporate job and they sell ads, right? It looks different because the medium has developed in such a short period of time, and that's exciting.

Matt Cundill  49:08  
Well, I'm excited for this podcast, and it's not even my podcast. Well, thanks. That's good to hear. So it's follow, hit subscribe. It's pod biz.

Norma Jean Belenky  49:18  
We're pod biz on all the directories. I'm sure you've got the link here in the show notes today on sound off, and yeah, YouTube, we are pod biz podcast, LinkedIn, pod biz podcast. Come find us. That's where we live. Like I said, B to B, thought leadership in terms of podcast monetization, that is our vertical. And of course, you can reach out to us, so there's that

Matt Cundill  49:38  
as well. Thanks so much for doing this. Really appreciate

Norma Jean Belenky  49:41  
it Absolutely. Thanks so much. Matt Captain Canada,

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  49:47  
thank you. The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan sirminsky, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off. Media company, there's always more at sound off podcast.com you.