Traci DeForge: Audio At Heart

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Traci DeForge is the founder of producer podcast, a place that makes podcasts for people and brands. She worked in radio until 2004 and in 2016 she created the podcast Management Academy, the industry's only certified podcast manager training program. Also pod hive. And she is the co founder of the podcast Professionals Association. I probably need to join one of those. Tracy also shares audience growth hack ideas on her podcast called growth accelerator podcast. She also randomly shows up in places like NBC and CBS, ABC, CNN, CTV and radio Inc, talking about audio, and that's what we're going to be talking about today, predominantly getting more people to listen to your audio. And now Tracy DeForge joins me from the headquarters of produce your podcast. I want to preface this by saying that we are not on a date, but I want to ask you about your dirty past.

Traci DeForge  1:12  
I have no secrets. It's fine.

Matt Cundill  1:15  
We need to talk about your past in radio. How did you ever get into selling radio? Well, the

Traci DeForge  1:21  
story is not that easy to answer, because how did I get into radio is really more the big picture, because I loved it ever since I was really little, like it was something that just the idea that I got to work in radio, by the time that I did get to work in radio, was like a dream coming true, because I used to sleep with an am transmitter under my pillow listening to ghost stories my dad, he was the president of the March of Dimes where I grew up, and they had the live remote broadcast at the walk a thons. And then this is going to really date me in terms of my age, but I used to call in to the radio stations and request the meatloaf two out of three. Ain't bad. So I just was like, I think I had radio in my blood when I was born, and so the fact that I got to work in radio initially, I remember literally the first day walking into the radio station and being like, I am home.

Matt Cundill  2:17  
What was the station that you grew up listening to?

Traci DeForge  2:20  
K 92 FM, Rowan at Virginia, W, X, L, K, I mean, I'm a call letter girl.

Matt Cundill  2:30  
All right, what were the call letters of the station that you first walked into when you started working?

Traci DeForge  2:35  
W, GMG, one Oh, 2.1. FM, magic, 102,

Matt Cundill  2:42  
and how many people right now are saying, what are call letters, right?

Traci DeForge  2:46  
Oh, that hurts, yeah. But if you know, you know,

Matt Cundill  2:51  
yeah, well, your General Sales Manager by the age of 26 Yes.

Traci DeForge  2:56  
So it was a pretty quick trajectory, but it was an amazing opportunity. So I was hired as an account executive right out of college, and at that time, the owners of the radio station that I worked for. The company was southern broadcasting companies, and the owners of that station were brokers, and they owned stations. And so at that time, they owned the one station in Athens, Georgia, and then they owned several stations in the Florida Panhandle, and then I became the General Sales Manager, and then the general manager of the one station. And then that's when 1997 happened, and the FCC deregulated the number of stations that you could own in a market. And it went because they were brokers, they were on the acquisition side. So we went from one to three to six to 12 stations in a matter of, like 100 it felt like 120 days. I think it was a more like eight months or nine months. But it was really fast. So yeah, it was quite the the rocket ship.

Matt Cundill  4:01  
Well, the rocket ship was also including you. You went to market manager, by the way, you mentioned Athens, Georgia, that's the home of REM.

Traci DeForge  4:09  
It is and the B 50 twos and widespread panic to cross all generations.

Matt Cundill  4:16  
I added a widespread panic song, hope in a hopeless world. You just brought that memory back to me. Thank you.

Traci DeForge  4:22  
Yeah, those were great guys. It was very fun town to work in broadcast. Radio. Was a very fun town to cut your teeth in radio. It was just the whole experience. I ended up working for southern broadcasting before it exited to Cox. I worked there a total of 18 years as an employee and another two years as a management transition consultant. So I mean, it was essentially unheard of, especially during that time, to spend that much of a span of window with the same broadcast company. But I did, and it was an amazing experience. I don't think I could even remotely do what I do today if I hadn't. Walk through all of that fire of the 1997 to 2001 like merging and all the M and A's and all the condensing of the staffs and buying up the stations and integrating the stations and the teams and the geographies. And it really mirrored a lot of what you and I were going through in 2016 when we started our businesses and podcasting, it was very, very similar the Wild Wild West, and no rules, no blueprint, no playbook. I want to

Matt Cundill  5:27  
be careful about how I asked this question, because I'm asking it from sort of personal experience. But that era of radio, I began to get very flamed out with work and other things that were just, you know, sort of going on at that time, the internet coming along and really having to be a part of the whole thing and the streaming thing. How was it for you right up until about 2004

Traci DeForge  5:47  
well, so in terms of being flaming out like so going from one to 12 stations in that sort of a period of time, and then also going from sales, so it was sales managers to General Manager to market manager, and then it was one station to six. You know, one to six to 12 stations. I mean, it's such a blur to know that I even literally, not only did I succeed at it, but like, excel at it, and like, live through it. But by the time 2004 hit, I was emotionally, spiritually, like, physically, like, exhausted. And that's actually when I stepped away. I was at the top of my game, if you will, managing the 12 stations the Atlanta area, Athens, Rome and 100 plus employees, you know, three different geographies. We were producing the University of Georgia Sports Network, plus the 12 stations, news, pop, country, rock, Adult Contemporary. I mean, you name it, but I mean, we had all sports, all the genres, all the formats covered, but it was absolutely exhausting and so much work. And yeah, was like 31 years old, because I think you mentioned what age I was when I became I don't even, I didn't even remember what age I was when I became the General Sales Manager, because it happened so fast. But by 2004 I really took a look at my life, and I was like, this is not sustainable for me as a human and I actually took a four week leave of absence, kind of just like to get my perspective. Is like, is it my lifestyle? Is it my job? Like, is it like, am I going to be able to sustain doing this? And I made the decision in March of two, actually, remember the day of March, 8 of 2004 to take that four week leave of absence. And then in April of 2004 I actually resigned that market manager position at that time and just walked away from the whole thing, because I just physically does not feel like and mentally did not feel like that. It was something that I could stay healthy doing.

Matt Cundill  7:53  
So what did you do next?

Traci DeForge  7:55  
Though? Well, that's kind of the irony of it all. So I stepped away, and then that's when I actually started my first business, which was three DM communications and the owners of the station. About six months later, the owner of the stations then hired me to base my consulting business out of their group of stations in a smaller market, so they had two stations in the Brunswick Georgia market, which is more like coastal Georgia, near like Savannah, Jacksonville, that area. And so they recruited me back. And, you know, I was like, Oh, two stations versus 12 live at the beach. I can do that. That feels healthy. So I mean, getting a trend of my workaholism here. So I was kicking off my consulting business while I was running their two stations, doing the management transition consulting and operating their stations out of the Brunswick market. So I did that for another two years. It was a two year contract we agreed on, but, but, yeah, I never, I think anybody who is listening to this who's worked in the business, and I'm sure you can probably write like, once you work in it, like it never leaves you, like you can leave it, but it never really leaves you. So that's what I did right after

Matt Cundill  9:15  
how do you look at Radio right now? From where you sit, you produce podcasts all the time. Now you're fully entrenched in it, but when you turn around and look at where radio is, what do you think, the

Traci DeForge  9:27  
first thing that comes to mind is like, I just wish they'd learned their lessons over time, but they didn't, and they've been given so many opportunities to reinvent themselves or to do something different, and they haven't from a consumer of content, consumer, like a radio I like, I still listen to radio in my car. Like, I still love the medium of radio, but it makes me terribly sad that it just, and I see the pathway and how it happened, but it just, I kept thinking. Like, even in 2016 when I got into podcasting, I was like, Okay, this. Is a great opportunity for radio like, this is your resurgence. Like, Let's optimize this. And I had conversations with companies to help them me, my approach was, let me come into your radio stations and train your sales people how to sell podcasting as part of your business model, not how, not part of your on air model, but part of your business model to monetize podcasts, and they just looked at me like I had three heads. And I had a conversation. I'm not going to name the company, because I just don't want to do that, but, but it was a large broadcast media company at the time, and I was talking to their head of programming and the sales. The head of sales was very interested. The CEO was very interested. They put me in on a call with the head of programming. And at the time, and this was around 2017 2018 at the latest, they said, You know what? Like podcasters are just like sitting in their underwear in the closet, drinking beer, making podcasts like basically telling me that there was no future in monetization, that what I was saying wasn't going to work, and that it was just a ridiculous concept that they would hire me to help their sales team develop a sales model around podcasting. Today, that person has his own podcast consulting business that wasn't a one answer question, but that. But that's how I feel. It's like, you get what you get when you don't do what you need to do to grow and stay innovative, you know, like, it's, it's so heartbreaking to me, for somebody who loved the business as much as I loved it, since I could, literally, like, walk, talk and speak, you know, I mean, it's been difficult for me.

Matt Cundill  11:42  
Well, 2016 it's a great year, because 2015 you know, we're looking around the podcast space, we can see that it's going there. We can see people gravitating to a lot of public radio podcasts, to, you know, whether it was NPR or CBC and ABC, and lot of catch up radio, which had already been established at that point. But, you know, that was the year of cereal. It was a little bit more of, well, wait a second, how do I get a podcast? How do I find a podcast? But you're already sort of doing audio, so you're like, Well, let me tell you, I'm going to start a podcast. So tell me about the first podcast experience.

Traci DeForge  12:18  
Yeah, so that's exactly how produce your podcast started is that I was doing so so kind of to like to fill in the gap. So I left the 18 year broadcast radio career, then did the two year management transition broadcast consulting contract, and I worked with some other broadcast radio stations at that time too, helping them integrate and because they were still trying to figure out how to sell multiple stations and service all the debt and everything that was going on during that time. So that was and then that was a catalyst for me. Ultimately, I ended up doing business development strategy for Fortune 500 companies, and worked with a ton of startups and entrepreneurs and helping them launch and grow businesses. So that was what I was doing, basically that 10 year window from like oh six to 2016 but in 20 late 2015 I was working as a business development strategist for Weight Watchers International, and I was helping them re innovate their in person, meeting model. And that was what I worked with the global innovation team there. And it was a really amazing project. And a lot of that, again, every everything that I do, even today in this moment, is built from what I did during that year of time, from 97 to 04 when everything was such a free for all and so when there were no rule books, right? So I was working with Weight Watchers International. We were piloting this event. This was right before Oprah came on. We were piloting this event in working to try to reinvigorate their in person, meeting model for the company. And I just, I love that work. I love what we were doing. I was very inspired by it, and as I referenced before lovingly, but I have always struggled with work addiction as a 12 step worthy. You know, I always say work addiction is something that people give you accolades instead of intervention for, but the consequences are the same nonetheless. And so as a result of the work that I was doing on this Weight Watchers project, I came up with this concept for this book that I wanted to write called Journey to there the intersection between personal and business growth. And I know myself well enough to know that I wasn't going to sit down long enough to type it, because I'd had multiple book ideas before. Clearly I can talk better than I can type. And so I decided I wanted to start it as a podcast, and then I could transcribe it and move it into chapters, and actually then, you know, ultimately, write the book. So I was leaving the airport in Minneapolis. I was leaving the airport, I text someone that I had worked with in the broadcast radio world for a really long time, and I texted him and I said, do you produce podcasts? And he texts back and said, for you, I would. And then we were off to the races. And I just know myself well enough to know that. I knew too much about radio. I knew I wanted a broadcast quality show. I wanted it to be a radio show as a podcast, and I did not have the skill set to do that on my own. And even if I had, I knew I couldn't maintain it or sustain it on my own because I was busy running my consulting business. So he was amazing. He honed a technology out of the UK, because this was before descript, before squad cast, before people, even before people were recording on Zoom, because this was pre pandemic, so we wanted to record guests virtually. So he honed a technology out of the UK. I built a team around my whole show. Journey to there no vision of a podcast production agency, absolutely not even in my mindset. I just wanted to broadcast quality podcast, and I pulled the team together. We launched it ironically March 8 of 2016 which was the same anniversary of the date of which I left southern broadcasting. And the irony of that was not lost on me. And so we launched it on March the eighth of 2016 and that was my first and what I thought was going to be my only show. And then really quickly after that, I was like, I had the bug. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, not only do I love this, but there are going to be so many business owners that are going to want to leverage podcasts to grow their businesses. And I looked around and at that time, there weren't really any full service agencies doing what produce your podcast now does and is known for. And so I launched early today. I did 100 episodes of it. I love it. I still love it, but it was really what was supposed to be. Was for it was the catalyst for me to then take all of those systems and processes and technology and everything that I had honed for that podcast, and then I started producing for other podcasters and other hosts. And that was, I mean, 10 years later, here we are.

Matt Cundill  16:55  
So that first podcast that you did was that video or was it just audio you were recording?

Traci DeForge  17:02  
Oh, no, video was never on that. I mean, I am an audio girl. Video was never on my radar. I was thrilled to do audio podcasts. And I'm surprised that you didn't hear the temper tantrum that started a couple years ago when people started, you know, first it was like requesting video, and then it was like, video and audio, and then it was like, just video. And I said this on another podcast I was interviewed on I was like, I'm sorry I did not start produce your video podcast. I started produce your podcast. I absolutely went kicking and screaming into the conversations around audio and video, because I believe in the power of audio. I believe in theater of the mind. I believe in the cost efficiency of producing audio. I believe in the opportunities to I mean, you mentioned serial that is a an amazing example of the power of the theater of the mind, and being able to do a documentary from an audio format and the portability factor. There's so many beautiful things about audio.

Matt Cundill  18:06  
Yeah, so me too. I mean, I went kicking and screaming into this video side, and yes, we're doing a video right now, but the way I look at the video we're doing is I'm only here for the marketing. I'm going to put it on YouTube. I just want to be discovered, because I know full well that I don't know anybody who's going to sit through the 40 some odd minutes of this conversation just looking at us. They're gonna put us in the pocket and listen to the

Traci DeForge  18:26  
audio, yes, and as they should, because then they don't have to be tethered to a screen, and they don't have screen fatigue, and they can be doing and multitasking and doing other things while they appreciate the conversation that we're having so but I do embrace and we do embrace video. We have produced some gorgeous shows. It caused me to have to re, you know, we've used the word re innovate and innovation to grow. I've dropped that in a couple of different times, but that was absolutely imperative for me to do to be able to scale and grow producer podcast because of the demand. And so it involved me having to restructure my team and bring in people with different skill sets because my network of and circle of influence of people were audio engineers and really damn good ones. But that did not always necessarily translate over into being able to edit and produce broadcast quality video. And really, as a creator, you really need to understand that we're not talking about record the video and just rip the audio and put it up, you know, and upload it like that's not an audio podcast. They do have to be treated as separate entities.

Matt Cundill  19:36  
Yeah, this one's gonna be, the video is gonna be probably about, you know, 10% longer than the audio when we're done with it, sometimes 15, 20% just because, as we like to say, we like to edit the show into within a minute of its life. What are you going to tell a client, though? Because people come and they're all excited about starting their big video podcast, and they're like, Oh, do we need to do audio? And how do you keep it together? Other, how do you prevent a domestic How do you prevent somebody from not calling 911, because, you know, you it's frustrating when people sort of dismiss audio.

Traci DeForge  20:10  
Well, I think for me, it comes back to the data. So right now, where we stand in the industry is that the data shows that the downloads and people listening to audio, even if they discover the show on YouTube or another video platform, people are still listening more frequently than they are watching. And so the conversation that we're having is that video is no longer a nice to have. It is a need to have, but our core focus is still on audio in terms of the efficiency we have a client, I think I'm better at example. So we have a client that does audio and video podcasting. The show is called the Civic brief. He's a defense consultant, so audio and video is part of his strategy. The majority of he releases weekly. The majority of his episodes are audio and video, but once a month, one of his weekly releases is called Walk with me, and it is a sound designed episode, because what he is doing he's also a writer, and he has sub stack, and he writes these gorgeous stories about what it would be like to take a walk with Eisenhower, what it would be like to Take a walk with George Washington. Those are not people you can bring to the mic today, right, but beautifully sound designed episodes. And so the idea is, yeah, watch my other episodes, but take a walk, literal walk with me. Put in your air pods. Let's go for a walk with Eisenhower. And it's just a lovely experience. And I think as long as you can be creative and strategic and really understand the nuances of the differences, then that's how you can be successful with both mediums.

Matt Cundill  21:55  
I posted something yesterday on LinkedIn. I didn't actually responded to somebody. Somebody had posted something about the power of audio, and I responded, video podcasts are one of the biggest frauds out there. Bring me your video numbers, and I'll put them up against some audio, and I'll cook you on retention, churn and listening time.

Traci DeForge  22:12  
And that's, I think that's what it comes back to data. Because people are getting so many messages, got to be this Well, and, I mean, for a while it was like, got to have a podcast, right? And the reality is, not everybody needed a podcast, period, whether it was audio or video. That was another thing that was like, you know? It was also like, do you really need a podcast to grow? And in our case, we work primarily with business owners. So it was like, Do you really need a podcast to grow your business? Because there are other alternatives. You can guest on podcasts if you're not going to be able to be able to commit to the sustainability if you're not going to be able, and we're so full service, and we do everything for you, all you have to do is show up to the mic, and still, sometimes people can't get that because they're busy in their schedules and all of that. So there's so much that goes into a podcast people don't really understand. And so you really have to define, like, your why initially anyway, and if it's going to be sustainable for you. So it doesn't matter if you're audio or video. If you can't be consistent and show up, then it's not going to work for you anyway. So there's so many variables, but we just get pushed with these messages. You have to do this. You have to do this for a while. Was like everybody had the Blue Yeti mic. Yeah. No, thank you. I mean, that's just marketing at its fineness, but it's not a fine mic.

Matt Cundill  23:27  
Yeah, we're having a lot of difficulty find anybody who will take the advice on how to properly use it as a side address microphone. Yeah, a desk prop.

Traci DeForge  23:35  
And I'm not trying to be disparaging, but I do get a little bit of a chuckle sometimes when I see somebody who has, like, they have the ring of the mic, or they have, like, the full on, like, setup, and then it's attached to a Blue Yeti, I'm like, Hmm, no, that's not going to get you the quality sound that you need, and nothing against them. And I will, I'm a big believer, and start where you are. And if that's where you are, start there, but just don't stay there.

Matt Cundill  24:03  
And obviously, for those who well, you can't see this because this is audio, but if you happen to be watching this on YouTube, behind you is a lot of beautiful square 3000 by 3000 artwork of many of your clients. It's quite obvious that artwork is a big deal when it comes to producing your podcast, and definitely you think so, because that's some pretty artwork.

Traci DeForge  24:24  
Thank you so much. I can credit my team for that. They do an amazing job. But yes, in the invisibility in graphics, how you show up on social media, how you show up in video, if you choose to do that, but how you show up even your audio logo and but with your intro and your music beds, all of those branding consistencies are incredibly important to the success of audience retention.

Matt Cundill  24:48  
Specifically, I have a radio friend in a market of a million people been doing a podcast for a little over a year and a half. It's not affiliated with the radio show at all. And again. Markets a million people. He's been doing radio for nearly 40 years, and, you know, he's got 10,000 downloads for 2026 and he feels pretty badly about it. And I said, I don't think you should feel pretty badly about 10,000 you know, you're fairly market specific, and you're talking about things within the market. This is a geo local podcast, and you got 10,000 downloads. But he feels badly. Now, could you be his therapist?

Traci DeForge  25:25  
Absolutely, I could be his therapist. Because one of the first things I would say is comparison is the thief of joy. And a lot of times what happens is, is that you hear about these big numbers, the Joe rogans of the world, these larger, you know, Theo Vons, these call her daddy, like these large shows and people underestimate like, again, what's your why? If you're a geo local podcast and you have 10,000 downloads, then you need to stand there and picture what it would be like to walk out on a stage in front of a venue filled with 10,000 people, because that's how many lives you've touched with your voice and the conversation that you're having, and that is no small number. And if you said, Okay, how would you feel if you had an opportunity to talk to 150 people who made the conscious decision to show up to you? That's the other thing that people really underestimate. The value time is the biggest resource. We'd never get it back. So if you're building a show that an audience makes conscious decision to invest their time. It's like, I used to use the live radio remote analogy, and this is a great audience for it. It's like, what is it going to take for somebody to get in their car, drive across town, to get a hot dog and a T shirt at a car dealership like that? Is a conscious decision on their part to do that. It's no different than what is it going to take for somebody to find your show, download it, or take time out of their day to listen to it. They have a lot of other choices of what they can do with that time, and 10,000 people have made a conscious decision to spend that with you like that is absolutely nothing to sneeze at.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  27:02  
Sound design of the sound off podcast is inspired by mega tracks, the sound of entertainment, providing music and sound effects for radio podcasts and media professionals. Mega tracks is your one stop shop for library and custom tracks. Start your music search now at Mega tracks.com the sound off podcast with Matt Cundill,

Matt Cundill  27:28  
so you and I have for a long time agreed on what to do inside the show. I know a lot of people want to have, oh, I want some baked in ads, and I want some money, but we think it's always better to promote your own stuff, promote your own business inside the show. But what is that exactly like? What is it that people should be promoting inside their own show if they have a branded podcast or a podcast whereby they're marketing themselves?

Traci DeForge  27:53  
Yeah, so again, I love to talk about the data first. So the last stats I saw were 73% of podcast listeners, specifically, listeners will take an action on something that the host recommends. So if you I mean 73% that is a high conversion opportunity right there. So if you're the host, and you are choosing to leverage your podcast for visibility, for lead generation, ultimately, to drive revenue, your platform. Is that possibility, I always say that is your oceanfront property. So why wouldn't you want to utilize that first, before you opened up that beach house, to bring renters in? Right? Like, you want to enjoy that oceanfront property and products and services inside the show can be a lot of different things. Like, you could utilize the name if the name of your business is different than the name of your show. For example, my podcast that I'm doing now is the growth acceleration podcast, but it's powered by producer podcast. So we get the integration of producer podcast into the show, but it's not what it's named. I actually did an audit yesterday for a business, and their whole specific reason they wanted to do the podcast audit was to be able to monetize their show. They have an online marketplace, so bring some of those pieces of merchandise if you're doing video, especially bring them into the studio, product placement, drive your calls to action, to the marketplace, also being able to if you have a book or if you have an actual tangible product that works as an amazing opportunity to just drop Your Own literal Ad into your show, or bringing in your clients another way that people may not think about in traditional ad space, ad inventory, mid rolls, pre rolls and things like that. But if you have testimonials, you can integrate those. But what's even better is bringing a client on and just talking about the strategy and how you worked with them. That what and people get a sense of what it would be like to work with you, and then they see someone else that benefited from working with you, that is content, but that's also a commercial, and in the sense of it really speaks to the heart of somebody who's interested in what it is that you do. And maybe they don't even realize that's what you do until they listen or watch the podcast, and then they go, Oh, I had no idea. And we've, we've had that come up with clients before, where, as very specific client, we worked with a seven figure business consultant. We pivoted one way that they opened their show, how they opened their show to let people know what it is that they actually did for a living. They closed a five figure package for a business owner from that podcast. But the key to this success story is that the person said, I've been listening to your show. Are you ready for three years? And I had no idea you could help me. That's on the host. So that was a lot to unpack, but you're talking my language, because this is what I eat, breathe, asleep. I mean, that

Matt Cundill  31:05  
kind of dovetails into the next question I was going to ask is, What is something actionable that we could do, you know, to grow your podcast and most of this stuff, and that's a great tip, by the way, but it's within plain sight, but we're always looking for something magical, like a magic bullet. And I'm going to do video, and then I'm going then I'm gonna do a bunch of reels, and then I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna pay a lot of money to do this and that, and then I'm gonna be famous, and I'm not famous, and why aren't I famous? And there's a lot of really small things that we leave out. I've already touched on the artwork, that's an easy win. You know, when it comes to packaging and marketing, we talked about marketing yourself inside the show, but what are some of some of the other actionable stuff that we could do right now that costs nothing, that is tremendously obvious, that is within plain sight that people are missing.

Traci DeForge  31:51  
My thing that I'm obsessed with right now is optimizing for podcast specific SEO, and one specific thing that you can do, and we find this so frequently when we do the podcast audits, especially if you launched your show during the pandemic, or, you know, when the frenzy, you know, over the last five years, let's say, is this whole idea that your podcast Foundation is a set it and forget it. And so it's not so if you and if you were DIY ing, it? You may not realize that your show description is the den of your podcast specific SEO. So the first thing you could do right now is like, hit pause. Well, after I say this, then hit pause, go to your platform, pull up your show description. If it's any shorter than 3500 characters, then you need to rewrite your shared description. What you're likely going to find is that it's going to be somewhere between 100 and 150 characters. And that's okay, because Spotify and Apple will truncate it at around 149 150 but if you stop there, you are missing out on an incredible amount of opportunity for podcast specific SEO. And so you add in your you know, if you and your co host, if you have bios, put them in there. If you have interviewed in the last year, six months, five years, however long your show has been on, if you've interviewed high profile guests, or just guests that are high profile within your own industry, that doesn't mean that they need to be the Joe Rogan's Mel Robbins of the world. But you might have interviewed like, again, the show that I was auditing yesterday, the founder of poopery that sold 170 million bottles of her product, was a guest on this very niche, specific podcast. But that's a high profile name in that person's specific industry that needs to be in the show description that, like, people think that the show description is like, and they get cute with it, or make it funny and it's like, Google doesn't read your jokes. Like, that's not what they do. So you know, with your episode titles and your descriptions in this for somebody who's a creative like me, that was a really tough pill to swallow, because I wanted to have, like, the the fanciest, like savviest marketing twist. And turns to my episode titles, and it's like, no. And Todd Cochran, who we lost last year, which was a big loss to the industry, who was the founder of blueberry, he used to always say, and I will quote him still, you write your show notes for Google, you create your content for your audience, and that is such an underestimated value, and it's free,

Matt Cundill  34:30  
so 742 characters in the sound off podcast description is not going to be enough.

Traci DeForge  34:36  
It's better than 140 or the least that we have seen in the hundreds of bodies that we've done is three which the name of the show had three words in it. But you wouldn't believe, like really high profile, very successful entrepreneurs and content marketing and all in a lot of other areas, we found one two sentence. Is, it's not that you're doing necessarily something wrong. It's just that you don't know what you don't know. And I think again, that whole thing of like the whole set it and forget it, and not thinking about the fact that that's a foundational piece of your brand that you can go back and rewrite, reinvent, reinnovate, update, add new guests, new topics, new everything to it. It's, I wouldn't do it any more than every 90 days. I mean, I mean, like 90 days, six months. You don't want to just do it all the time, but you don't want to wait five years to do it. Do you

Matt Cundill  35:31  
want me to pause the podcast while I go rewrite the description? I'll come back and we'll finish the interview?

Traci DeForge  35:36  
Yes, exactly. And then we can review it.

Matt Cundill  35:41  
Tell me about the value of being a guest on a podcast, because your company does do some guest booking. And so tell me about the value of appearing on podcasts.

Traci DeForge  35:51  
Okay, so I have a lot to say about this just because of my own personal experience. You could probably tell by talking to me by now that, like, if I get passionate about something, that I believe in it, then I want everybody to believe in it too. So I understood the value of guessing on podcasts. But this goes back like 2022 ish, we tried it with our team. I was busy. It was never on it was never in the front burner. What I loved about people guessing on podcasts at that time to be fully transparent, is like sometimes they would get the bug if they guessed it on podcast, and then they would want their own podcast, and they would be referred to us. So I was like, Oh yeah, I love it when people guess on podcasts, but I personally didn't really invest in it. Let me say that it's not that I didn't see the value in it. I just didn't personally invest in it. And in 2024 the year. A couple years before that, my team had been kind of like, hit or miss. We were doing it. I was showing up sometimes, not all the time. And we actually Todd Cochran again. I was speaking with him at a conference, and he was like, look like AI. The feature in AI is like, you got to go broad, not just deep. And so the more frequently AI sees you and recognizes you and connects your name as an industry expert, the more likely you're going to show up in AI. And this was like early before chat GP. I mean, he was so brilliant, and so he had a lot of insights into this that a lot of people know now. But this was like I said, you know, 2023 so in 2024 I invested in a guest booking agency. I hired them to put me on shows. And I like, my stomach hurt when I did it. But, I mean, it was a big investment for my size company at the time, and I just was like, okay, and I committed to 12 months I showed up. They did an amazing job. We got a huge ROI from my personal experience. Then at the end of 2024 I believed in it so much I wanted to integrate it into our packages in 2025 and Angie Trueblood, who was the owner of podwise at the time, she was ready to do something different, and so I bought it. So it's like, I mean, not only did I believe in it, but I believed in it enough that I bought the company from her and integrated her team into produce your podcast team. And now fast forward, a year later, all of our what we call our cadence packages, which is our hosts and creators that do ongoing production services with us. You know, we build packages that are production, audience growth and guest booking, because we believe it's like a three legged stool. You can't just have one without the other. And about a month ago, I was listening to a podcast the guest, his name is David Ledgerwood, on Listen network. He was talking about the services that he provided in the industry. 10 years I hadn't met him. I didn't know him. I didn't know about his services. I listened to a podcast that he was a guest on. I connected with him. I learned more about his services. Like, it just works. It just works. Like, don't take my word for it, just just works. And it works great if you don't want to have your own podcast too, like if you just want to get visibility and generate leads and build your visibility and your thought leadership, but you don't want to show up consistently to produce or have your own show produced, it's a great marketing opportunity. I think

Matt Cundill  39:17  
being on a podcast and guessing on a podcast is fantastic. So and, you know, you've got enough podcasts behind you, I'm sure you've even been able to connect other people within, you know, the network to do it,

Traci DeForge  39:26  
yeah, and we used to do that, and we still do it like as an opportunity of gratitude and goodwill. But I just was, I had no again, I didn't have the insight or the forethought at the time to think it was going to be part of my business model. I just, I thought there were a lot of guest booking agencies out there that did a good job and go for it, but when I had the opportunity, when I personally had the experience, that I could talk about my own self, that's when I realized that I was ready to offer it to other people, because that's really the way I like to do things, is I like to test things myself first.

Matt Cundill  39:59  
Yeah, you mentioned. Todd Cochran twice, and I miss him too. And he's had a lot to do with a lot of people, I think, especially who started a little bit, you know, what would be seen as later, 2015 2016 into, you know, producing podcasts and making the pivot to video and sort of, you know, growing in the last 10 years, he's had a lot to say and has shaped a lot of businesses like yours and like mine, and we lost them last year, and worst part of 2025

Traci DeForge  40:25  
it was heartbreaking. And left is a huge, huge hole in my heart and in the industry. And I'm also the co founder of the podcast Professionals Association, which is the industry's only 501, c6 trade association that's dedicated to supporting podcast service professionals like you and me, and he was one of the founding advisors for that, and just a, really, he's such a was such an advocate and such a personal supporter of me. But what I didn't realize until after he passed away, was that I was not unique. I was just thought that the whole time I thought I was special, and then out of the woodwork there were 1000s of mes that he impacted. And so I would just wish he knew. I wish there was a way he I don't think he really had any idea, but maybe he did. I hope he did.

Matt Cundill  41:11  
One of the things I loved is the stories he would tell of, you know, podcast consultants who really just got into it late in the game, or just didn't really know what they were doing, and would call him for advice that he would be horrified at the fact, wait a second, you call yourself a podcast consultant and you don't know what an RSS feed is. I mean, you had to deal with a lot a lot,

Traci DeForge  41:31  
and we had multiple conversations about that. If the three of us had been together at this in the same room, I know that would have been an interesting conversation and and I say that with respect. I mean, I think that's why people who reach out for help do need to be careful about the level of information and who they're, who they're getting the information from, and the level of expertise that the said consultant has in the space, because there's a lower bar to entry. When I started produce your podcast, I shared the story about, you know, we researched, we had technology. We were a team of broadcast professionals who started a podcast production company and were very committed to it. But we had, at that point in time, I had over 20 years of experience in the broadcast radio space. I was able to transfer a lot of that knowledge and and passion into podcasting. But then on the opposite end of that spectrum, you have somebody who started a podcast, got lucky with it, or maybe they were smart and strategic and were able to do it on their own, and then they put their shingle out and called themselves a podcast consultant, but they weren't able to replicate or sustain what they were able to do. And, we've produced over 200 shows, you know, 1000s and 1000s of episodes, millions of downloads. Literally, I think I've said this already, but we literally eat, breathe and sleep this. It's all we do. And you

Matt Cundill  42:52  
podcast it too. It's called the growth accelerator podcast,

Traci DeForge  42:56  
yes, oh, this is another soapbox I have. You didn't ask, but I'll give you one is that you don't have to, like, it's okay to archive a show like, I think that there's like, this whole myth around that maybe you failed if you decide you don't want to continue with your show or like. So I would mention journey to there had just over 100 episodes when I decided at that point in time that that wasn't the pathway that I needed to stay on at that time. Then I co host, and I continued. I co host a live radio show that's based out of LA. So for a number of years, my podcast was the repurposing of that radio show I also did, for a short period of time, I did a morning show segment called pop of color. I repurposed that into a podcast, but when that morning show segment ended. So did pop of color. And I've co hosted a couple of different podcasts and now doing growth accelerator. The best advice I ever heard about that that I've never forgotten is from Tina Dietz, who is the founder of twin flame studio. And she is like, you have to think about podcasts like a book. If I had sat here on your podcast and just said that I had released four books or five books, you would be, wow. She's author of five books. That's so impressive. But if I tell you that I archived four podcasts and only have one active, you're like, What's wrong with her? Did they fail? Quitter? Yeah. I'm like, No, but books have beginning middles and ends. It's okay for podcasts too, but I just this whole idea that you failed because your podcast didn't go into, you know, 1000 episodes, but if it's not doing it for you anymore, and if the audience, you know, is maybe not showing up for it anymore, or even if they are like, I don't know if you follow, but this Jenna Kucher, who's been big in the space for a long time. Gold Diggers podcast, she just announced the very first of January 2026 she had 764, episodes. She almost got to 1000 but she decided that it was the right time for her to retire her podcast for now, and she writes about the perfectionism aspect of like I really want. To do it at 1000 but energetically, she was done. And I thought it was so interesting because she called it season one. She never called it season one for 760 plus episodes, but when she archived it, she called it season one in the event that she wants to come back, would anybody in their right mind with 764 episodes, millions of downloads, the amount of she's seven figure. Business model around it. Call that a failure like that would be insane. There's a scene in

Matt Cundill  45:26  
Forrest Gump when everyone's following him and he's running, and he's running, he's running, and he just stops and goes, well, that's it. I'm going home and go, well, people are going, Well, that's it. It reminds me of that scene. I've got a podcast, actually, and, you know, sometimes it's like, I'm just gonna stop and I'm gonna put it to sleep and I'm not gonna take you don't have to do anything. You just let it sit there and just call it a completed work, and then that's the end of it. But it's, I guess a lot of people have a hard time walking away. But if Mark Maron can do it and Jenna can do it, sure,

Traci DeForge  45:55  
and they're in no way considered failures in this industry, and nor should you if it's not working for you anymore, like I can see a world where maybe I don't continue to have my own podcast and I just do guest booking that's okay, or maybe I co host on someone else's show and do that as opposed yeah, there's just, I think, you know, this is an industry the one of the Things that I have loved. And coming back to our original part of our conversation about broadcasting versus podcasting, what I have loved and will always continue to love, and God help that it stays this way, is that it's a medium that's lower bar to entry in a positive way, like it's a platform to change a conversation with your voice that you have access to when I was growing up, and those stories I was telling you about going to those walkathons and calling into the radio station, and even the day I walked into the radio station and they hired me, I felt like it was unobtainable, like it was on this pedestal, like I could never get to it. And we had this now beautiful opportunity to access our opportunity to get our voice out, and that's what matters, right? Like, it's just so important for people to understand the power they can have in changing a conversation by showing up. Should I ask

Matt Cundill  47:12  
you to make a prediction for podcasting in 2026 or is that just like cliche and or do you have one

Traci DeForge  47:19  
well, for 2026 Okay, I think we're still sorting audio and video. I think we're still I think there's going to be some die hards like us that are going to really still want to be holding on to the definition of an actual podcast, but at the same time kind of releasing that idea that it has to be redefined, so that everybody embraces it. So I think it's going to be a year of redefining what is a podcast, and podcasting and the benefits of podcasting, but I think we're just getting started. Like, I think that there's so many opportunities. The other myth buster that I'd just like to reiterate is like, this is not a saturated market. This isn't even close to a saturated market. You're not too late. If you started and you stopped, it's not too late to start again, again. That whole idea, that's what I love about podcasting. There's no rules yet. So it's, you know, it's not heavily regulated by the FCC yet. It's not, you know, it's still a platform that you can be creative in, and for all intents and purposes, pretty cost effectively, and so I think all of those things are just going to get solidified, because the biggest prediction, I think, in terms of positive advances, is we're going to get the opportunity to tap into better metrics. And that's been something that's really kind of held the advertising dollars back because they haven't been able to the agencies, especially, haven't been able to check that box in terms of like, like you can with Facebook and meta and all of that. I think we're going to get better metrics, so that's going to open up monetization, ideally for some smaller, more independent shows. And then I think the last thing that I really want to see, and I might say this every year, because I think it's more of a of a wish right now than maybe a reality, but I think we're getting closer. Is a really want to see more geo local podcasts be successful. So I was very happy to hear what you said about your friend who has the 10,000 downloads in the local market, because a small but mighty audience can still affect change. And I feel like, yes, you get these global analytics. But what can you do in your backyard to make a difference? And a local podcast can do that?

Matt Cundill  49:27  
You know what? You're a really good podcast guest. Hey,

Matt Cundill  49:34  
thanks for coming on the show. Tracy. I appreciate it. Thank you for letting me talk about what I love the most.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  49:39  
The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Taylor McLean, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company. There's always more at sound off podcast.com you.