Valerie Geller: Beyond Powerful Radio V3

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The sound of podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:12  
If you've ever wanted to be in radio or worked on air and radio, you might have encountered Valerie geller's book Beyond powerful radio, it has long been considered a broadcaster's Bible. Well, the long awaited third edition is now out beyond powerful radio, an audio communicators guide to the digital world news, talk, information and personality for podcasting and broadcasting. Wait a second, that sounds an awful lot like our audience. So I feel very safe in saying that if you are listening to this, this book is for you beyond powerful radio's New Testament includes podcasting, social media, story telling, AI and synergy across all platforms and media formats. Now this interview is not a substitute for buying the book. If it was, I wouldn't have already purchased three books for clients. I have been blessed to work with Valerie on a number of occasions. She has literally, she literally changed the way I spoke to radio listeners and now podcast listeners. I'm hoping to use her latest book to up my multi platform game. If you don't believe my words, you can speak to Blair Bartram, Kelly, Glover, Aaron Davis, Julie James, Terry, DeMonte Seth wesler and so many other people who have appeared on this show, they can tell you how she will change the way you communicate on air and online. And now, Valerie Geller joins me from Los Angeles, California. I feel like you and I have been talking about this book and the update to this book since about 2016 Does that sound about

Valerie Geller  1:38  
right? I'm embarrassed it took six years to write, and I was way, way slow on the deadline. And it's not an excuse, Matt, but here's why. Okay, most of it was updated, and I was already going to update about podcasting and social media, and a lot of it in multi platform. And then COVID 19 hit, and during COVID, the world changed. We started working differently. Remote broadcasts instantly. The technology for being able to be in two places and sound like you're in the same room was fantastic. If you wanted to interview someone, you could be in your kitchen, in your bathrobe and do it, and you had a level playing field with anybody else who was in a great studio. So suddenly, Zoom changed the playing field. Everything changed. And I asked for another year. And then, on a personal level, I lost three people in my life to COVID, 19, and I was the executor of their estates on two of them, and so that took everything out of me, and I couldn't write a word. I was just dealing with that and total grief, and I cut myself some slack, because I think it's true. I've advised this for years with creative people, and I never had to do it myself. There are times when you just have to step away and do life and take care of yourself so that you have enough in the bucket to dig into when you are ready to go back and write. So it took six years to write this book. We do have new sections on podcasting, AI, social media, multi platform, and lots more on storytelling, because during that six years I changed. I changed how I work, and now most of the work is with podcasting. So one of

Matt Cundill  3:27  
the things that I started to do is I wanted to contribute a little bit towards the book, and I started to write some stuff, and then I would put, for instance, top 10 things you could do to start a podcast, and then I would pull it out six months later, and it would be completely outdated. And so I thought for anybody who needed to do a book, whether it was about podcasting or technology, it felt like it was hard to keep up with all the new technologies that were coming down. Did you have any struggles where you had to add and subtract things as you went?

Valerie Geller  3:57  
Okay, what we decided to do was leave it as technologically neutral as possible. Now, we do talk about the rodecaster, and we do talk about some of the new equipment. You know, for $700 you can have a whole setup, and that's how it is right now. But that is subject to change, because by the time you are reading this, it may be a completely different technology. So we did put that in. I had a lot of people contribute to the podcasting section, Amanda Cupido, who wrote, let's talk podcasting, and now let's talk podcasting for kids. Amanda wrote a lot about the podcasting, and it's really about how to set up, how to plan your podcasts, and a lot about just structure. Do you have to do one every week, every day, every month? Do you have to drop it at the same time? Can you make a series of podcasts? Do eight of them, and that's it. You've said what you have to say. You've talked to the people you wanted to talk to, and your story has been told like a Netflix series. So maybe you just drop some of them. Do. So what we did was we focused on what you do, how to create a quick promo for your podcast. How do you decide what to you know what to drop into the RSS feeds so that people will get excited about wanting to hear more. And finally, how do you promote your podcast? So those were the things we really focused on. And I feel bad because we were going to include you in the book. And then after I got to we had to cut 250 pages out of the manuscript, and it was like, Oh, I'm embarrassed because we can't have Matt, but I also am so thrilled with the work you're doing, and I'm so proud of you. And one of the things I love about you, Matt is that you got into podcasting very, very early. You got excited about it. You started doing a podcast, and you started learning things and sharing what you knew, and bringing all kinds of experts to your podcast, and also just sharing insight. And it's fantastic. And I'm really proud of where you are and what you've been able to accomplish and develop an audience of people who are in love with podcasting.

Matt Cundill  5:59  
Thank you for that, and thank you for saying all that. One of the things I am is I'm very technologically savvy, and I always talk about the tech, but it gets outdated so fast that, you know, most of the things I write about one week, I'm pulling back and throwing out the next week.

Valerie Geller  6:13  
This is the opposite of that. This is like you're talking about the kinds of ovens you can cook in that will deliver you the food. I'm talking about how to grow your carrots, you know, so that they taste great. You know how to make your recipes and how to come up with show prep and ideas and how to present so that you're going to engage. That's going to work whether you have one listener or a million listeners. My whole thing is about how to be a powerful storyteller and how to engage audiences so that you can get, keep and grow a listener base and make everything about the listener. And that's really the core of the powerful radio and powerful podcasting work.

Matt Cundill  6:49  
And one of the things I love, I feel that the book has undergone a renovation, and one of those renovations, well, we're going to change the bathroom a little bit, but we're also going to change the kitchen a little bit, and changing certain parts to the point where there's now AI and social media and other things we never really thought of that now have full dedicated chapters in the book.

Valerie Geller  7:09  
AI is here to stay, and not addressing AI would have been weird, and you mentioned James Cridland earlier. James is a contributor to the AI part of the book. We use a lot of experts. There's over 55 experts in this book, and their ideas, as well as my ideas from working in the field of getting audiences for people. Ai should be used like the world's greatest intern, but just like the world's greatest intern, you gotta keep an eye on the person. You have to kind of watch them, because they're gonna make mistakes, and they're going to really put a foot wrong sometimes. So the great thing about AI for show prep, it can scrape the entire world wide web. You and I were talking about the technology that even if we have a little bit of fuzziness in the quality of the sound that we're talking to each other on right now, you could clean that up with AI in one second. You know, AI is here to help us, and it's here to stay. It's also scary if we don't watch it, so I think we have to wrap our arms around it and really use it for what it does best. But we can't let it take our humanity.

Matt Cundill  8:09  
Your core principles that you've been teaching for years are still intact. None of them have gone away. They all still exist. Tell the truth never be boring. Make it matter. Ask yourself, what's in it for the listener?

Valerie Geller  8:25  
Exactly those things don't change. And you know, a lot of times like someone will say, Well, you know we were going to ask you to speak at our radio conference this year, but we know your message. And it's like, you know the message, because this is what works, water the grass, the grass will grow, eat less, exercise more, you will lose weight. These things are absolutes. They do not change. But what changes is the stories, the personalities, the individuality of all of the different talents who are doing this. And so yes, the core never changes. Tell the truth, but then let's look at truth. Part of the truth is getting your facts right. In today's world, it's a little bit of a challenge to make sure and verify. Is this true? What was the source? How do they know this? And it becomes the responsibility of the listener and the presenter to dig deep and make sure your facts are correct. Then there's a secondary truth. Are you truthfully and authentically interested in what you're talking about, or is this now another topic manufactured to fill a slot on my podcast or my radio show because I needed to have some show content, and when it's manufactured for the podcast, it never sounds as good as when it comes from the heart, or you're really passionately interested in it. If you care, you can make the listener care. There are no boring stories, only boring storytellers. So if you're interested, you can make it interesting. But don't be an actor. Don't fake the AI. Can be the actor the AI can, you know, go. On and talk about things, but only you can talk about it with your human passion and interest and caring about a subject or topic, and that's about making it matter. Finally, never be boring. If you are bored, it is boring. And I think a lot of podcasts, and this is one of the main thing. When I train podcasters, Start Strong, engage immediately. Don't tell me Hi. This is Bob Johnson. You're listening to episode number 45 of my podcast, and yesterday on my podcast, we were, you know this is going to put somebody to sleep, flip it around, and instantly tell the listener what he or she is going to get when they turn on that black button and go for listening to your podcast. So the first thing you should do is use the word you have you ever Can you imagine if you're interested in and start with that. You know, if you have an overweight, aging cat, you found the right podcast for you, Fat Cat podcast, you know, it's that, you know, brought to you by pet care. That's the thing. Instantly let the listener know what they're going to get in radio. We know this. Instead of, you know, I have five sets of tickets to give away, it becomes you have five chances to win. Turn it around, from what we have to give to what the audience is going to get. Imagine each listener has a bucket, and you're just putting solid gold in that bucket, and if you can continue to fill the bucket, here's why you need to listen to this. Or if you can always answer the question, why should I listen to this?

Matt Cundill  11:32  
So I had an example of that sort of play out a little bit on an episode with Steve Goldstein where we talked about audio promos. And my audio promo was, I'm Matt Kendall. This is my show. I've been doing it for this long, and here's what it's about. And I'd love for you to join me on these eight platforms. And really it needed to be something more along the lines of me answering the question, what's in it for the listener?

Valerie Geller  11:56  
You got it? That's exactly right. So then it becomes Okay. So let's say, for example, I don't know what was your topic about? Was it about podcasting, or was it about something else? That one

Matt Cundill  12:05  
was about audio promos. So do you

Valerie Geller  12:09  
know that there's a reason when you walk into a big market and they have a tray of samples and you get to have a bite of the sausage or a piece of the chocolate or a piece of the brownie, well, that's what an audio promo is. It's a taste to get you to buy the entire sausage or to come back and listen. I'm Matt Condell and coming up, one of the top experts in podcasting, talking about how you can create promos that will engage, seduce and entice your audience. Eight platforms, however you want to listen to this YouTube, over the podcast, online, off the website, however you want to listen to this podcast. Everywhere you can find podcasts, there are eight ways you can hear it, and that's coming up next. What's in it for the listener? Can I just clip that and use that anytime I live? To serve all I have is yours. One of the things

Matt Cundill  13:03  
that I really loved to come across, you know, there's just these moments where it's like, yes, that is new that has happened. I can see this new part of this, you know, world that we're in now, and when you're talking about this powerful communication principles, the one or two that stood out was promote, which is promote yourself, but also promote the work of others.

Valerie Geller  13:22  
Absolutely, you know one of the secrets of growing your podcast audience, and you already know this, get on other people's podcasts, promote their stuff. If somebody else is doing something really exciting and great, or, you know, you listen to a show and you learn things, and you're entertained and you're inspired, and you know, you can just feel how hard that person worked to make it happen. And it works. The magic is there absolutely put the light on them. You know, helping somebody else is one of the greatest things you can do in life. And in fact, for depression, when people are depressed, the first thing they suggest to you is help somebody else get out of your own stuff and help another person. And if you can put the light on somebody else's good work, everybody wins. And sometimes, in this universe of sometimes it's fair and they'll help you.

Matt Cundill  14:13  
So a couple other words, and these ones have been tossed around many times, whether you were at a conference and we were listening to you or in your book, but that's Dare and risk. And I kind of feel that these words kind of fell a little bit deaf in my ear at one point early in my career, because I was like, Well, I've got a program director, they might not like that, or I've got a boss who might not like that, who's listening within earshot of the radio station. And now I'm at a point with these two words, where I encourage talent to go to make sure that those two words wind up in the interview process before you go onto a radio station or a podcast network and ask the programming people in the hiring committee, when was the last time this company took a risk and was daring?

Valerie Geller  14:57  
That's it. And unexpected and. But there's a thing about unexpected joy, unexpected, unpredictable part of not being boring is to surprise people. Now AI is going to be predictable, programmed and won't take risks. If you don't take risks, I can replace you with a computer. I can replace you with AI time temperature, interview questions, facts, all that stuff. I can replace you with AI, but what I can't replace is your creativity, your ability to take risks. Now let's go back to why people don't Okay, and you hit the nail on the head when you're like, Well, I'm afraid I could lose my job if I take a risk, my boss might not like it. The number one thing that holds creative people back is the fear of looking foolish or making a mistake. And you know Carl Faber, the psychologist and I write about it in the book, in his book on listening, he always would talk about the tyranny of the eyes of others, of what other people think of us, and if you're so worried about being liked and being approved of, and what other people think you'll never, ever be great, you have to dance like nobody's watching. You have to have the guts and the courage to take a chance that some people might not like it. And if you know it is true, and it is true for you and it matters to you, you know, take a swing, and that's what's going to set you apart.

Matt Cundill  16:29  
Another favorite moment in the book, the departure, asking the guests to leave, getting the guests to leave. And this is, and I'm not surprised that you're working with the number of podcasters that you're working with because of all the crutches that exist out there and some of the ones that just drive me nuts. And I've got the data on this. Just before we wrap up, I'd like to ask you, are there any final thoughts? One last thing, all these things, send a signal to the listener that something is going to be ending. And every time I hear that in the show, I can just go into the data for the podcast, and I can just see the drop off is like right after those

Valerie Geller  17:03  
words, right instead of that question, there's a great question that a lot of interviewers find that it's a signature question they end with. So whether it is Matt, what's the one thing right now that if you could go back and talk to 13 year old Matt that you would advise yourself, sitting where you are now on the mountain, and the audience knows that's final question. They get it. They're not stupid. The audience is gonna go, Oh, he's wrapping up now, and he's asking this huge thing. Or if there was one thing you could tell someone who wants to get into this business, what would it be? What do you tell people? And you have a final question, and you don't say and now my final question is, you just ask this power question, and you end it so strong so that the audience wants more. And then it becomes, if you would like to write to Matt, here's where you can get in touch with him. You want to call Matt, text him you'd like to see Matt make a presentation at a conference. Here's where Matt's going next. And if you want to read Matt's book, here's where you can find it. Want to read my book? It's been on powerful radio.com she says shamelessly, but I mean, it's, it's that you leave them with actionable. If they're hungry for more, you give them where they can find more. And it's better to leave them a little bit hungry. It's better to err on the sign of brevity than go too long with anything. So that just

Matt Cundill  18:30  
goes right back to what constitutes a really good radio break. And I always thought was, you know, get in strong and have a way to get out of it and then make sure the stuff in the middle really cooks,

Valerie Geller  18:40  
or have a couple ways out, you know, because sometimes when you're mid creative moment, it may go another way. But, you know, have a couple of possible ways to end it. Why limit yourself to one? Because

Matt Cundill  18:53  
I hadn't thought about the other ways to get myself out of the break,

Valerie Geller  18:57  
right? There's always, there's lots of ways to skin a cat and have a lot of exit plans. You know, it's like a fire exit. You could go out that way, or you could go out that way, or you could jump off the roof with a parachute. There's a lot of ways down.

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Matt Cundill  19:43  
almost like I want a Cole's nose to the answer to this question, but the prism method of storytelling,

Valerie Geller  19:51  
okay, so in this book, beyond powerful radio, we have at least 10 or 12 different ways to tell stories. One is story spawned. Online. You can look that up in the book, and it's on the website. Another way is prism, which is one of the most fantastic ways, when I train reporters, when I train news journalists, when I train producers, talk show hosts, podcast hosts, we use this method, and it's about, nothing is boring. Never be boring, and one of the stories I put in the book, and the prism method, in a nutshell, is basically just as you would hold a prism or a crystal up to the light, and it would make a rainbow on the wall. When you turn that prism, you get a completely other pattern from the rainbow. It's still the rainbow, it's still a piece of crystal, it's still the colors on the wall, but they have changed how they look. And you turn it again, and it changes again, and it's the same set of facts, the same story, but you're looking at it from different perspectives, and that's what prism method is. So when I teach it, we take each story and we split it up into what happened? Why are you telling the story? Why did this thing happen? Who are the characters involved? Who's your cast of characters, and do we care about them? When did it happen? And if you're doing something locally, you know where it happened, the place it happened sometimes is really important. So you're doing your who, what, where, why, when and how. But you're literally almost filling out a sheet or a screen of dissecting the meat off the bones. And you take your facts about the story, and then you look at them, and you decide what's the most important thing. So there's an example I give in the book, and it's a true story. There was a reporter. I had taught her the prism method, and she went into a store. This happened in England. She went into a store, and the lady was just wrapping up to close the store, and she was on the phone talking to her daughter, and of course, the reporter, one of the things we suggest for show prep is bring in something you've overheard and observed, bring in something that's happened to you, and bring in something from the news you would normally talk about, if you didn't have a show, bring those three things in. So Maggie's observing this. What's happening in the store. The woman is closing early because she and her daughter have to get to Gatwick airport because they have to pick up her twin brother, who lives in America, who she hasn't seen since they were six months old. The twins were separated, pretty much when they were little, tiny babies. Their parents were in India. The mother took the little girl to England. The father took the little boy to America, and he'd had the crappiest life. His father was an alcoholic. Sometimes they lived in the car. He never finished out one year in one school district. His dad had been married five times. He really had a tough life, and when he turned 45 he finally got his act together. He got married, he had a baby, and he his wife and the baby are all on the plane winging their way from Wisconsin to London to meet the owner in the store who's closing early. Maggie says, I work for radio station. Could I come and do a story? The woman says, Sure. So in the car on the way over, Maggie is deciding what prism angle she's going to use. Her first angle is when twins are separated at birth, do you always feel like you're missing your other half? Do you feel an emptiness in your life? And that would have been a great angle. The next angle had to do with her daughter. Her daughter, as a class project, had gone online and located the brother. And in today's world, if somebody has a footprint, you can find anybody in three days on the web. I mean, it's amazing. And with DNA, you can find your people. So that's another angle into the story. The third angle into the story that Maggie really thought about was, if you've never seen a good relationship modeled, and you've never really known love, how can you possibly be a good father and have a healthy marriage if you've never seen it? And that would have been another viable angle, but here's one on the radio. When they got to the airport, Maggie took a look at the scene, and she started her story with six month old Amanda, with her blonde curls and big brown eyes, is exactly the same age as her aunt and her father were when they were separated in India, 45 years ago. That's how the story started. So she thought about all these other ways, and if she had had to multi version the story, because a lot of times, you know, situations and things don't change, and you have to find a way to tell a story a number of ways, a number of times. In fact, I won't even hire anybody if they can't tell a story or a joke three times, three different ways. Because, you know, are they speaking visually? Are they talking to me personally? Are they using the word you? Are they engaging? Do they make me care about this story? The hallmark of a one. Eight podcaster or broadcaster is someone can get you to care about something you didn't care about one minute ago, but because you turned on the audio, you're hooked, and now you have to hear what happens next.

Matt Cundill  25:14  
So when people are interviewing I'm interviewing you, in this case, there's a lot of times people miss out on one of the best opportunities, and that's listening back to what they're saying and then getting ready for the next question by listening. Because we spend so much time writing out the questions and doing our prep, and we're going to follow the order tell me about the value of listening back in an interview.

Valerie Geller  25:37  
Okay, so really hearing somebody sticking to a list of questions is okay, but it's not a conversation. And the best thing you can do in a podcast, and the best thing you can do in a radio show in any interview, is the listener should forget it's an interview and just feel like they're the third chair at the table with two people talking about things that matter. And you know, are these things interesting? Are they inspiring? Is there new knowledge? Are the you guys giving me talkable topic that I can talk about with people later? You know, do I feel like I know you from sitting with you and listening to you? And in fact, the hallmark of a great personality is that, if you're a total stranger, people feel like they know you and could have a beer or a cup of coffee with you, and that's the hallmark of every star on any medium globally. So as far as really listening to somebody, the way that you can really find unique content where, let's say you're interviewing a famous actor, they have stock rap that they're going to do, they have stuff they say 100 times, and you're going to hear it on every single podcast and every single podcast and every single radio show and TV show, and they're going to talk about the same stuff, but if you do deep listening, they may take a tangent or drop something that may take the conversation in a whole other way. So think of it as you have a trail mapped out for your hike, but then there might be a side trail or a scenic route. Never be afraid to take the scenic route, because often it's better, and that's what deep listening does. Go off script, answer the ideas that come into your mind when they're answering questions through the deep listening and genuine curiosity counts for a lot

Matt Cundill  27:17  
earlier editions of the book, my favorite chapter was going from rock to talk. How do you make that transition from Music Radio over into a format where there's just a lot of talk, but now there are lots of transitions that need to be made in this world. So I mean, I think about them, but I didn't really think about them until you presented them to me, and that's, you know, somebody who works at a newspaper and does writing and has to make a transition to doing podcasting because the newspaper decided to add a podcast division radio into video is needed. Yeah, there's so many transitions now,

Valerie Geller  27:49  
exactly like writing for the ear. So the thing to do is to just be really open and find the fun. And what I'm finding with print journalists, they're like ballet dancers who have perfected ballet for 20 years, and suddenly we're jazz dancing. It's still dance, there's still music, there's still moves that you'd have to do, but it's a different format, and it's really hard to re habituate. Writing for the eye is completely different than writing for the ear. It might not be grammatically correct. We know this from the songwriters. They may use inaccurate grammar, and it may be so powerful in the line that they're writing. The same thing for radio and podcast writing, we need to describe things visually, talk to one person. The thing that a lot of print people are hard to get they don't want to give it up, are percentages. Well, if you say 72% in print, it's easy to see it, and often there's a graph or a pie chart, but for audio, you should say it's about three out of four, because it's more visual. So 75% isn't 75% or 72% it's about three out of four. 50% is about half. 1% is one out of 100 people make it visual. It's a completely different language. And I train people. We do it both ways, because we're all working multi platform for the video, you have to be well lit. You have to look good, whether you're a man or a woman, you have to look as good as you can. Your background matters, because that's going to distract if it doesn't. And finally, do you have good eye contact with your audience? Do they feel connected to you? All of those things are important with a video, do the pictures help tell the story? You know that's part of it as well. But with speaking for that year. It's it's really speaking to somebody who's blind. And the more visual language you can use, the better, the more you can put a listener in the movie. If you were standing here looking at here's what you'd see, the more you can use visual language, the better it's going to work.

Matt Cundill  29:56  
You've got a couple chapters in the book as well. That answer the biggest question. Questions that podcasters have. So the two biggest questions I get are, how do I market this and how do you make money? So you can speak, you can speak to either one here. But I mean, those are the two biggest questions, and you've got space for both in the book.

Valerie Geller  30:15  
The real answer is product permanence, promotion, which is how any business, anywhere, a restaurant, a company, branding product or service. This is how business works. And if you are looking at your podcast, if you're doing it as a hobby, and you don't care that you have 100 listeners, and you just you're happy with that, that's different than if you are using this as an extension of your brand. If you want to grow and entertain and inform. If you have a point of view you'd like to get out there. It's different. So first of all, decide what is your message, what is your product, and who are you take a deep dive in what do you want to do, and why do you want to do this. Podcasting is a ton of work. Do you have the ability and the time and the hours in the day to put into this editing takes time. Podcasting is pre recorded. You need to make it perfect. That's going to take time booking guests if you're going to do an interview show that takes time promos, and once you do a good product, and you do it consistently over time, but then you worry about promoting it. A lot of people make a mistake, which is where they spend a lot of money promoting it, and they buy all kinds of ads, and they do social media ads, and they're on Tiktok, and they do everything they can to get people in the circus tent before the circus is any good. They're still learning. They're making mistakes, and they're making their mistakes publicly. And if you are boring and if you make mistakes, people will check out your podcast, but it's going to be really hard to get them to come back another time, because people are very judgmental and they're really quick. So my suggestion to anyone who's new at this is, first thing is perfect your content, make your content riveting. And the word of mouth starts to get out when something is good, and then build on that.

Matt Cundill  32:11  
Now that the book is complete, how do you feel?

Valerie Geller  32:15  
You know, it's interesting. The minute the book came out, the minute I was holding it in my hand, I wanted to change everything in it, you know, like you always do, you know, oh, I could, should have put this in, should have put that in. But I was really happy. I felt like it was the culmination of six years of writing. It is my life's work based on what I know works to get, keep and grow audiences. And I work in 42 countries with over 500 radio and television stations. Now, I work with over 100 podcasts that are pretty all of them are pretty successful right now. They've done the hard work of it. If you want to see some of the people that I have worked with in some of the shows, if you go to creating powerful podcasts.com/clients, you could actually see some of the shows, and you can almost hear the trajectory of their growth when you listen to the early shows, and then you listen to the shows after they've begun doing the powerful communicator work and working with the methods in the book, it's really clear as they grow, improve and become much more engaging.

Matt Cundill  33:16  
Valerie, congratulations on the book. I'm going to be ordering multiple copies because it makes such a great Christmas present for my podcast clients, and well, 100% of my clients could use this book. So thank you very much for writing it. I'm excited to read it and as well to share it with people throughout the year.

Valerie Geller  33:33  
Matt, thank you. And if people would like to get copies of the book Beyond powerful radio.com is the book Geller media, G, E, L, L, E, R, media.com is me, and I would be very happy if you have questions after you read the book. You know, text me on Twitter. X, it's at V Geller. Find me on Instagram. I'm happy to answer questions because I'd like to be as much help as I can. And this is a living thing, podcasting and the book is a living thing. And it's really important to me that if you are open and you want to improve, and you're open to doing these techniques, the book offers them to you, but then you still have to do them. And so I want to support you if you want to do

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  34:18  
them. The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan serminsky, edited by Taylor MacLean, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company, there's always more at sound off podcast.com you.