KC Adams: Red Dress Day and the Art of Relational Making

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:20  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray

Stuart Murray  0:31  
K.C. Adams is a Cree and Anishinaabe, relational maker, curator, writer and educator based in Winnipeg, whose work powerfully explores identity, cultural reclamation and the impacts of colonialism through photography, installation and public art deeply rooted in community, her projects often elevate indigenous voices and challenge viewers to confront difficult truths, while also celebrating resiliency and connection as relational maker who uses storytelling as a form of advocacy, she brings both creative and insight lived experience to conversations around justice and visibility, including the significance of national day of awareness for missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, known as red dress day. K.C. Adams, welcome to humans on rights.

K.C. Adams  1:25  
Great. Thanks for having me.

Stuart Murray  1:27  
Okay, how did I do in that introduction?

K.C. Adams  1:29  
That was quite a mouthful. I'm sure

Stuart Murray  1:32  
I know, as long as it's all good with you, it's good with me. I appreciate it. Yeah, listen, K.C., thank you so much for being here. You know, I mean just right off the hop. I mean, obviously I want to talk about the fact that I was amazed when I went through the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. And I know that when I was the President's CEO, we had a relationship with Jamie Black marcette, and there was an exhibit that was done there, and I know that you and she worked on it. And I really want to talk about that. But I just wanted to read off the top. Just get a sense for somebody like you when, when somebody talks about the fact that, oh, it's red dress day. I mean, does that? Just tell me what? What do you think when somebody says that, when you understand the incredible depth and meaning, and you know, the part of Canada that is addressed in the issue around what took place? Does red dress day? It's simple to say, but what does it mean?

K.C. Adams  2:26  
Well, you know, I just celebrated my birthday just recently. Hey,

Stuart Murray  2:32  
happy birthday.

K.C. Adams  2:33  
Thanks. Am I 55 now? 5454 55 I gotta remember, really just thinking about growing up in small town Selkirk, and how I didn't see people who looked like me teaching. I didn't see people like me in magazines. I didn't see people like me in significant roles and professions. You know, that kind of level of oppression was very difficult for somebody like myself, and when you don't see yourself being reflected back at you, it's pretty disheartening, and there's a loss of sense of self. I was very confused, and there's also a level of shame that was involved. And now that I can look back, even when the red dress first started coming out, it was the first time that we really were hearing about important people, important women who didn't have a voice. I look back and at the time that the red dress project first came out, and to now where we're honoring murdered and missing Indigenous women, Two Spirit people. But I would also like to point out men as well. It's very encouraging, and while it's dark and it's difficult, at the same time, there's so much love that I have for people who've lost their loved ones, and while this doesn't heal their heart, this doesn't certainly make up for the fact that their loved ones are missing. It's quite encouraging to see that as a nation, we're recognizing these important people.

Stuart Murray  4:36  
One of the things that you do an amazing job at, and I want to talk about this is how you're using finding space for voices, for, you know, the kinds of work that you want to do, ensuring that that space is there. But just before we get there, K.C., you know, it's fascinating to understand what, what you just shared, the the, you know, the notion that you. And see people like you in a teaching role or in a mentorship role, but here you are now, and this is my words, and please correct me if I don't say it correctly, because I see you as a as somebody who is a leader, who is a mentor, who has taken on that role to give voice to those spaces which we're going to talk about. But when did you start to realize that that some of the things that you were feeling earlier that you talked about this, this notion of some shame and just not seeing people? When did that start to change for you?

K.C. Adams  5:31  
Oh, that's such a loaded question. I'm just going to start by saying that becoming a mentor, being creating work that allows my my people, my culture, to have a voice that was really important to me, because I wanted to heal those wounds of my childhood, but I also wanted to heal the wounds of the people who are coming after me as well, and Also people like my parents generation as well. My mom carried a lot of shame for being indigenous, so I realized that I can't just complain, and that's what I was doing. I would just complain to other people about disparities between my people and and then somebody said to me, Well, why don't you do something about it? And from that moment on, it was I couldn't just complain. I had to do something about it. And the best way I could do that is through my art practice, by making and thinking like community. And those were that's basically how my life drastically changed. Was when I started thinking less as a artist, working in her studio by herself, and I started thinking more of community, and how can I help and uplift my community? Because ultimately, it also uplifts my spirit as well.

Stuart Murray  7:13  
But you, you came into a place where art started to become something you got passionate about. When did that happen to you as a as a young person, growing up, or maybe you weren't so young, I'm not sure. When did that start to speak to you, to say, you know, this is the way that I'm going to use to let my voice be heard, or in to be a relational maker, which I love that term, by the way,

K.C. Adams  7:38  
right? I'll have to explain what that what that is in the minute. I often tell people that I walk in the footsteps of my ancestors, in particular, my female ancestors. Women were in charge of so many things, the shelter, the clothes, the moccasins, harvesting food, helping with so many different things. I mean, I so they had to be skilled in so many different different ways of knowing. And honestly, that's how I function, is that I jump from medium to medium based on sometimes it's seasonal, sometimes it's mood, sometimes it's instincts, like it's, I never know what I'm going to pick up. But creating was internal. It was something that I always knew. It was, it's, it's not something that I can remember when I started. In other words, it was always embedded in me. And we have this thing called Lead memory, where the knowledge and the experiences of our ancestors are imprinted in our DNA, in ourselves. And so that idea of making was always there. I'm going to tell you. Do you know the the famous quote by Louis Riel? My people will sleep for 100 years, and when they wake, it will be the artists that give them their spirit back.

Stuart Murray  9:12  
So I'm aware. I mean, so K.C., this is, this is your podcast. I've heard people say that maybe that's not quite exactly. I'm not here to sort of have that conversation with you. Let's go on the basis of what you just shared, because I think that's what your conversation is about. And as I said, this is about you. So thank you for sharing that. Please. Please use that as your your as kind of where you're going. Thank you.

K.C. Adams  9:37  
So I would argue that Louis Riel wasn't actually talking about people like myself who were trained in the fine arts that went to school in arts. Rather, he was actually talking about all of us. So at one point in time, every single indigenous person created. Yeah, they had to make and that was our church. That was our way of communicating to the spirits and the ancestors, because we're living in minus 40 TPS, like minus 40 degrees shelters, right, right? So the threat of death was constant. And how do you keep your spirituality alive? And they did it. My ancestors did it through making and creating beautiful objects that they could wear, creating beautiful objects that they used in ceremony. All of those things were a way to tell the spirits and ancestors, please help me and I have faith. So when Louis Riel is talking about it's the artist that will bring their spirit back, what he's actually talking about is every single indigenous person needs to pick up whatever it is that they need to create. Make a drum, make a pipe, make moccasins. Work with quills bead because that's a contemporary version. Make their ribbon skirts. Once we start picking up our culture again and those spiritual understandings, then we'll get our spirit back. So this little kind of a long winded,

Stuart Murray  11:16  
no, it's fantastic. I love it. Thank you so much. No, it's great. Thank you so much.

K.C. Adams  11:20  
Yeah, so it's the creative process giving how creating gave me a voice that all came from that imprint, from people who came before me, and honestly, I didn't know anything else, being a shy kid, I'm a twin, and there's usually a dominant one and a submissive one. My sister is the dominant one and I'm the submissive one, so she did all the talking for me. But what changed my life profoundly was when I started using my art, the creation process to speak for myself, because that's the thing about Shy people, is they're always sitting in the corner, watching and listening and observing and thinking of their own thoughts, to the conversations and art allowed me to manifest my thoughts and create a voice for myself for the first time.

Stuart Murray  12:24  
Yeah. I mean, thank you so much for that. You know, it's a, it's a beautiful way to kind of frame, you know what, what you're doing today, and how you've got there. And I, in particular, what I loved about your explanation, K.C., is that, you know, I just when I asked if I could call you an artist, and you said, No, I would prefer to be called a relational maker, which, and you explained that to me, would you maybe, just for those that are listening, if somebody sort of said and came to you and said, Hey, listen, K.C., you know, I saw the you did that, that that, you know, I'm going to call it an art show. Maybe it's the wrong thing, but a perception with the photographs. I mean, that was very, very well documented, and I heard a great interview with you on that, but somebody said, Oh, you're, you're a wonderful artist. I mean, they're not trying to offend, but I think at some point you want to explain to them.

K.C. Adams  13:16  
No, no, of course not.

Stuart Murray  13:18  
Here's really how I see myself. And you use the term relational maker. Yeah, share with the listeners what you what you mean by that.

K.C. Adams  13:25  
So the term artist craft, those are colonial terms based on Western ethos of like art ethos, it's it describes making process that is deeply tied to western point of view. What it doesn't take into account is the cultural, spiritual, land based understandings of indigenous people, because we believe that everything, everything, is in relationship with each other, whereas when you think of artists, I don't know about you, but the stereotype comes forward, such as Vincent van Gogh. Let's face it, a lot of males are attached to when you think about the term artist, craft is usually relegated to women, so there's like a hierarchy that's involved with these western terms. So you have your sculpture, your painting, and then things like ceramics, fiber work, all of these other kind of art forms are get lower in the hierarchy. I felt like those terms really didn't define my indigenous understandings, and in some ways, it also isolated me from elders, so I stopped introducing myself by the term artist, and I wanted to figure out a way that would describe the. Work that I was creating in a way that honored the people who came before me, a waking dream. I had a waking dream. And the word, the word relational, actually it was a relational creator, but I realized I had to not use the term creator, because it sounds too much close to a spiritual understanding. So relational making, and what it is is the skillful production of objects, new media or performances by indigenous person that infuses indigenous knowledge systems such as relational, locational, spiritual, communal or holistic understanding. So it's really taking in those understandings, and especially when you look at the work made by the indigenous ancestors before contact or even after contact, the work was holding all of this spiritual understanding. But how did the Western world look at that work

Stuart Murray  15:59  
as an anthropological object that deemed to be put into museums. So the value was low. It wasn't considered art in many ways. They called it craft as well. And as we know, craft is low on the hierarchy. So the relational making gets rid of that history, it takes out the western context, and instead focuses on the knowledge that's embedded into everything that's created. Thanks for that. K.C.. Appreciate it. One of the reasons I wanted to have a conversation with you many but one of them, I wanted to get your sort of thoughts on. I think I was saying to you that when I was the president, CEO of the Canadian Museum of human rights, where Jamie Blackmore set had created an installation from using a musiological term called the Red Dress exhibit, and obviously, when I went back to see that There has been a change. And I know you and Jamie have reimagined that, yeah. And am I correct that it's you? Do? You call it now? Sky woman,

K.C. Adams  17:11  
yeah. So it was actually originally Jamie's idea to contact me the installation that she created. And I don't want to really speak for Jamie too much

Stuart Murray  17:23  
understand, maybe

K.C. Adams  17:24  
just the context of, like, our our relationship, but, you know, at one point in time, I mentored Jamie, but she's just an incredible artist and so compassionate and absolutely A powerhouse, an amazing woman, and really thinks about community in a way that I never did, you know. So she, she is such a sentient being. And when she created red dress, and the backdrop was very stark with the trees, and it was very jarring, having the red dresses hanging. It was almost like hanging dead bodies. And you know it, it's such a stunning, stunning installation. And from what I understand, one of the most popular exhibits in the museum, most photographed, I think

Stuart Murray  18:23  
probably, and K.C.. If I could just sort of do it, just a small bracket for one second. I can tell you that one of the challenges we had initially, and we had to work with Jamie, is that because of how the red dresses were positioned and hanging, you know, with the the the change of air, and the amount of movement of air within the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, the dresses would not hang completely still, there was a slight movement to them, which, you know, was not part of her installation. I mean, she had was very prescriptive on how she how she visioned it. And so we had to get her permission to say, Would you please look and see what's happening to your exhibit, simply through the natural movement of air in the museum. And I don't want to anybody that hasn't seen it or is listening to this. I mean, it was subtle. I'm not talking about it was, it was subtle. And I think she looked at that and sort of found some power in something that was just naturally happening. So we were, we were thankful for her to sort of allow us, because had she not, I'm not sure what we would have done K.C., to be honest, I really don't, but you know it, you're right. It is one of those, you know, I guess just using museological term installation sounds a little sort of prescriptive, not creative. It is very, very powerful, very emotional. And so I was, you know, equally, just so fascinated and curious as to. To the thought about the change, to change that exhibit and and so the notion of what now, it tells a tremendous story, I guess,

Speaker 1  20:11  
yeah,

Stuart Murray  20:11  
but so I would just love to get your how you, how you both chatted about that, and then what, how you came to that change.

K.C. Adams  20:20  
I guess, for those who haven't seen it, it's a stark and you can tell it's a cold day. It's a photograph. The background is a photograph of poplar trees that are white with black markings. They almost look like birch trees. They're so, so high contrast, but they are. They're poplar trees, and in the background, it's very monotone, and it looks like a cold Manitoba day. And amongst the trees are red dresses. And then right in front of the this large, least large, paneled photographs, there's actual red dresses hanging to show that physicality. And it was such an incredible and powerful piece. And I know Jamie was invited to many communities to speak with with relatives who've lost loved ones, and they were together to collect red dresses and hang them like almost like a performance piece, but like an installation in their communities and everywhere it happened, it was just super jarring. So she wanted to capture that, and I think it captured it really beautifully in the museum. But when she first started, it was really about bringing attention to murdered and missing Indigenous women. Eventually, we started having the conversation about two spirits people as well, and then also the conversation of Indigenous men who also go missing. So she felt that, at least this is my understanding. She felt that we needed to start changing the dialog because because of the national attention of the red dress and murdered or missing Indigenous women, Two Spirit and men, she felt that we needed to move on to the next phase, and that was to action, and she brought me in to help with thinking about a new direction for the background. And you know, it's such a privilege working with Jamie, because she, like I said, she's such a sentient being, and we had so many magical moments. She had a vision. She wanted, she wanted me to design the background using birch bark, because I I use scanned images of birch bark in my work to reflect that relational relationship that we have with birch with trees, basically. But she also really loved my birch bark biting, and she had this vision of the star woman and the stories of star woman coming down to earth. And so she wanted to create an installation that felt inviting. And through our work together, it became almost like a lot when you're in a in a ceremony, and it was like inviting people, okay, what's our next steps? Now you know about murdering and missing Indigenous women, Two Spirit and men. What are we going to do now. What's the next steps, and how do we do that in a good way? And the first and the best way to start, is come into my Lodge. Let's do ceremony together so that we can now start doing action. And it was, it was very scary, I have to say, for for me, because I know the the original piece was beloved, and we did get some people saying, I can't imagine anything different. And I was very nervous about doing it. But again, working with Jamie, we had such so many magical moments, and we consulted with the staff, and we worked with their creatives, and so many wonderful, wonderful experiences happened, and Jamie just kept that focus. She kept us all focused. And what came out was this incredible and stunning, warm, inviting installation.

Stuart Murray  24:51  
I can understand, you know, a slight moment of trepidation on your part, K.C. when approached, but on the other hand, I think. Like, you know, to to your spirit, you know, she wouldn't have contacted and had this conversation with you had she not wanted to do something and chose you.

K.C. Adams  25:11  
Yeah, there, there definitely had to be a level of trust. And I trust her implicitly, and I was very happy to see that she trusted me as well.

Stuart Murray  25:20  
Yeah, that's fantastic. And so just to sort of kind of look at it from this perspective K.C. that that the initial installation was really to bring people's attention to the notion of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, Two Spirit and now men, as you say, to bring attention, but to try to change it from maybe bringing attention to saying, how do we use this as a voice to go to whether it's through education or awareness or involvement? Would you say that that from your perspective, that people have seen that. Would you? Would you should be able to share any comments that you had with people who have been so emotionally brought into that and can understand now just why that needed to have a slight adjustment to how the original piece was.

K.C. Adams  26:15  
I'm going to speak strictly from my perspective on this, but that too often, when people think of indigenous people, they think of tragedy, they think of the loss. They think of all the difficulties and hardships that have happened to us. What people fail to see is the ceremony and the love and the teachings that have always stayed with us, and Jamie, from what I understand and and this is how I, I interpret it from from our conversations, was that we we wanted to bring those understandings forward, that we're more than just tragedy, we're strong, we're resilient, and we need to work. We can't be carrying the whole load. We can't be carrying the whole load. So how do we do that? We bring them into ceremony with us, so that they become supports, not so much supports, but they take that journey with us. How do we fix this? How do we move forward in a good way? And we can't do that if we don't understand each other. And while we understand a lot because we're we're in the place of always being oppressed, the opposite is not true. So this was, I like to think it was a way of inviting people into our lodge and saying, Okay, now you need to learn our ways so that we can move forward in a good way. Because once you learn the understandings of Indigenous ways of knowing and being these kind of like senseless violence and disappearance will go away, because that's not our way. Is to hurt women.

Stuart Murray  28:10  
You know, part of the the conversation, K.C., I wanted to have to get your thoughts, is, we call it red dress day. Well, we, I mean, I think that's kind of the notion that it has become red dress day. And, you know, part of it is, I wonder, you know, from your perspective, I can certainly share mine, that red dress day is, is an easy way to say. It's an easy description. It's an easy way to describe something. It's an easy way to get a visual imperative. You can be talking to somebody and say, you know, we do celebrate red dress day in Canada. Brings an image. But I wonder, you know, the notion of of not talking about the like? It's an awareness for missing and murdered indigenous women, girls, two spirited and men and so it, you know, you abbreviate something down, or you change it. And do you feel in any way, shape or form, that it just changing the real meaning of what we're trying to bring awareness to, or bring powerful voice to?

K.C. Adams  29:18  
Well, I think that's why the extracurricular activity. So, I mean, you don't just see it. I mean, absolutely, it's great that it's part of the the national lexicon. Now that people know of this day, some people either just speak about it or they just they hang up a red dress. That's great. But there's also, like, frontline workers. You know, it's being taught in schools. Teachers are making it part of their assignments. There's also marches, and there's also people like artists like Jamie, who are moving things forward in a good way. There's a lot of elders. Us who speak out, you're actually seeing coverage in newspapers and on social media. So all of the things, those things, propel things forward in a good way, right? And it's, it's about thinking, What about allyship? Right? It can't just be propelled by us. So we need that. We need allies to to also participate. And like I said, having it part of the national lexicon is, is the starting point.

Stuart Murray  30:34  
And if, if you, if you look at it, that perspective, K.C., which, which, I think is a really intellectual, intelligent way to look at it. How would you like the conversation? And maybe, maybe it's not about conversation, maybe it's more action. How would you like to see actions of the broader community move forward around this discussion?

K.C. Adams  30:58  
Well, you know, I'm, I'm an incredibly positive person. I like to think the best of people as opposed to the worst I'm I'm not a defeatist. I'm an optimist. So for me, but also my teachings that from my Lodge is that we have to go forward with love. We have to go forward with kindness and compassion understanding. We have to open our doors for those understandings to be passed on. And we have to work together. And if we're constantly fighting, I don't think that can happen. I think the Warriors have done an excellent job in speaking up and speaking out for a lot of our causes, and there's so much value in what they do. I think the next steps are then, okay, how do we come together? How do we take action? Because when I create work, I'm really trying to ignite action. I'm not interested in alienating people. I want to bring everyone into the circle, and I would never show any sort of lateral violence to my community, I think everybody has roles to play, and people who speak up and speak out and protest are just as important. They're super important, and they're a significant part of the circle.

Stuart Murray  32:38  
Do you think that? And I had a conversation with an artist about the power of art in protestation, you know. I mean, you can have a megaphone, you can have a loud voice, which, you know? I mean, again, it has a role. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but sometimes art has a way of creating its own voice. And I just, you know, wondered, from your perspective as a relational maker, how do you vision, or how do you see that role in terms of and when I say protest, it's not on a negative side. K.C., I'm talking about protest and saying awareness, education, understanding. How do you see that Israel playing that role?

K.C. Adams  33:25  
The people who came before me used making and what the Western world would consider art, but like the making of objects was a visual way of communicating those understandings. You can walk up to somebody and look at the decorations on their on their clothing, and you would know where they came from, which family they came from, who they are, and where they come from and and what they believed in. That's the power of making. That's the power of communication. When we think about it, there's a lot of people who are coming into Canada who don't who are learning English. They're learning about the country that they're they're coming to, and they may not necessarily know the intricacies of English. And the thing about art and the making process is that it can send messages rather quickly where language falls short, right? So, so that's I feel like it's such an important part of moving forward, because it's so much about who we are. And I just want to give a shout out to Rebecca Belmore, who did a performance piece called vigil, and she was talking about the murdered and missing Indigenous women before, I think there was even term for it, about the women missing in the east side of Vancouver, where she she performed this piece, where she was. Yelled out. She had written down the names of women who were missing on her, on her body, and then would scream out their name and take a rose and like bite with the barbs and everything, would rip it between her mouth. And she was caught up, and she was screaming their name for us to remember such powerful, powerful work. And, you know, I think about Christy Belcourt, and she had created vamps. Asked people to create vamps for the women who weren't able to finish their moccasins, which allowed them to walk that red path. She did a series of installations across Canada to bring all that attention to people that we were missing, women and girls. Art has that incredible capacity to to bring attention to things that are are important, but art also has a way to bring us forward in a good way, teaching others about our ways of knowing and being, which I think environmentally speaking, is also really important to save our world.

Stuart Murray  36:14  
Adore the conversation with you. K.C., you know, I always look at it. I wanted to ask you one last question before we, before we, as they say, hit the off ramp. You know the fact that you brought into the conversation men, with respect to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, true spirit you bring in the notion of men? Do you feel that that has found its way as part of this dialog and this this recognition, or this day of awareness. Do you think that men are now finding their way into that?

K.C. Adams  36:49  
I certainly hope so, because we don't see heteronormative ways of thinking where sexes are always specified. You know the term Anishinaabe means people. So it's embedded in our language that everybody is important and that we're all people. You know, men are part of that circle. Every single human being, be it Two Spirit, be it women, be it men. We're all super well. We're all part of that, part of that circle. We're all in that relational spider web, as I like to call it. You kind of disrupt one is disrupting everything. So I'd like to think that that it is part of the conversation. And I think this notion of separation is can be harmful, so I like to acknowledge that, and that might be a personal thing, but I think, you know, speaking on the podcast, it's my way of getting people to think about that as well,

Stuart Murray  37:56  
for sure, yeah, no, thanks for sharing that. I appreciate that. You know, K.C., is there anything, you know, when you thought about coming on this podcast, and, you know, talked a little bit about, you know, what we were going to be talking about, is there anything at all that you would hope that I might have asked you, that I haven't asked you

K.C. Adams  38:16  
I well, I mean, I do have to admit, like i i I feel somewhat inadequate, because while I did help Jamie with this project for the Canadian Museum of human rights, it's just not the total facet of of my work. It's like a small part, because I like to think like that spider web. So I'm touching on a lot of different ways of uplifting my community. I think it's important that we have these conversations about our people who go missing. I like to think that that I'm just like one tiny, tiny little grain of sand, pushing forward this movement in a good way.

Stuart Murray  39:03  
I think you are

Stuart Murray  39:04  
but I humble myself as well. Is what I mean.

Stuart Murray  39:07  
You embrace that tremendously. I mean, I think it just comes across as as how you present, how you enunciate, how you articulate. Everything about that, I think is done in a very, in a very loving, humble way. Thank you. So I appreciate that, and I thank you for that. K.C. Adams, Cree Anishinaabe, relational maker, curator, writer and educator. Thank you for taking time to be on this humans on rights podcast. I appreciate it.

K.C. Adams  39:36  
Thank you for having me.

Matt Cundill  39:38  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to human rights hub.ca.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  39:59  
Produced and. Distributed by the sound off media company.