Speaker 1: this
Speaker 2: is LifeSpeak , the podcast about well being, mental health and building resilience through knowledge. Here's Marianne Wisenthal,
Speaker 2: I'm speaking today with menopause specialist trainer. Bev Thorogood Bev provides menopause awareness training for managers, employees and hR teams to help retain valuable female talent, reduce costs and improve performance. She also hosts a podcast called Generational Exceptional, aimed at women aged 40 to 60 and she's the author of a new book,
Speaker 2: The business of menopause. A guide for working women.
Speaker 1: Bev
Speaker 2: joins me today from east Midlands in the UK, which is right in the middle of England. I understand.
Speaker 1: Welcome
Speaker 2: to the life Speak podcast
Speaker 1: Marianne, thank you very much simply to be here
Speaker 2: In your book, you point out that every woman who lives to be 60 will go through menopause. And yet it's one of those things that no one wants to talk about until it's actually happening to them.
Speaker 1: Most women
Speaker 2: know very little about what to expect. Why do you think that
Speaker 1: is?
Speaker 1: I think it's probably multifaceted to be honest. I think we've had a history of women's health in general, women's reproductive health in general being something that was shrouded in mystery and a private thing that nobody talked about.
Speaker 1: I think there's also the fact that, you know when you think about the other end of that reproductive cycle. So we're coming to the end of something when we reach menopause, aren't we?
Speaker 1: We think about the start of it. It's a real celebration. It's a coming of age. It's the start of our sort of, you know, our womanhood. And I think for many women, the society kind of, it's not kind to older women, I don't think and actually will talk. I'm sure about the fact that menopause is not necessarily an age specific thing.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of women and society in general connected with age. So almost
Speaker 1: if you're no longer able to have Children,
Speaker 1: then your value to the world disappears,
Speaker 1: that's certainly not true. But I think it's a perception that's hung around for many, many, many centuries. I think
Speaker 1: so. I think it is multifaceted. I think there's a legacy of getting older is seen as something that isn't valued in the Western world no longer being youthful and reproductive and having value is seen as losing value and not having any worth. And I think we've carried that through and it still persists
Speaker 2: and we're so ill prepared when it finally comes.
Speaker 1: Well, we don't talk about it, do we?
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I lost my mom when she was 20 when I was 22 rather and she was 54. So I never had her to ask or talk about menopause with. And actually, as you can imagine in the work I do, I talked to very, very, very many women
Speaker 1: and many of them say, you know, they tried to broach the subject with their mom and their mom was so dismissive. It's like, oh, you know, I don't want to talk about that,
Speaker 1: it's just something we women have to get on with. So even within families, I think sometimes there's an unwillingness to talk about this, not all the all the time. I do talk to other women whose moms very, very open about it,
Speaker 1: but there seems to be this constant mystery and taboo that seems to pervade.
Speaker 2: So you actually give menopause training workshops and I read a quote where you said a G. P had told you that he'd learned more about menopause from one of your training sessions than he'd learned throughout his entire medical training and his 28 years of
Speaker 1: practice. And he
Speaker 2: couldn't believe that something that does affect 100% of all women, which is half the population
Speaker 2: could have so little time allocated to it during general practitioner training.
Speaker 2: Which is really shocking to hear.
Speaker 1: Now
Speaker 2: in the UK there's a make menopause matter campaign I think in the UK year, but further ahead of us on this discussion,
Speaker 1: this
Speaker 2: campaign is in full force calling for all GPS to receive mandatory menopause training and for it to be taught in medical
Speaker 1: school.
Speaker 2: Are you seeing changes happening since you started your work?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So I've been doing this now for coming up to four years, basically, I left my own job because of menopause,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a sea change. And I think you're right, I think the UK is actually leading the way in many ways in getting menopause
Speaker 1: more mainstream, I suppose that makes menopause matter campaign,
Speaker 1: I think we're set up biological diane dan spring, if I'm right.
Speaker 1: And she's done amazing work doing things like getting menopause onto the school curriculum. So now kids are taught about menopause at school.
Speaker 1: She's also done a lot of work campaigning within our government to try and make sure that businesses and employers recognize menopause policies and guidance and support measures in place.
Speaker 1: And part of the Make Menopause Matter campaign is to look at the medical training that general practitioners get around menopause.
Speaker 1: It's not happened yet. Some of that campaign has happened. But the training for GPS hasn't fully been embedded.
Speaker 1: But we have another menopause expert in the UK who you may have come across dr Louise Newsom,
Speaker 1: who again, is doing amazing work, really pushing menopause care to the forefront.
Speaker 1: And she's got something called the Menopause charity that she launched last year. And that charity offers menopause training for every GP practice in the UK for free.
Speaker 1: So, we are seeing that things are changing. But of course GPS are very, very busy. They're very busy people. So, trying to find the time in their practice for somebody to go and do the training is potentially difficult.
Speaker 1: My argument would be as exactly as you said,
Speaker 1: Probably more than 50% of their patient base is going to go through this if they're not going through it now.
Speaker 1: It should be a matter of urgency. It should be a priority to do that training. But yeah, definitely. We are seeing changes happening. I think
Speaker 2: I want to come back to what you mentioned earlier about you leaving your own job because of what you were experiencing during your menopause.
Speaker 2: And one of the most surprising things I was to read in some of your work is that women are leaving work. We're taking lesser roles because of menopause. And you yourself did a career
Speaker 1: pivot
Speaker 2: as a result of your own experience. Tell me about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I had my first sort of obvious sign of menopause when I turned 50 actually on my 50th birthday, I had my first hot flush. And all I really knew about menopause at the time was that you got hot flashes. A few mood swings. I had no idea of the breadth or depth of symptoms that were associated with Peri menopause.
Speaker 2: Peri. Menopause. For those that don't know could be up to 10 years prior.
Speaker 1: Yes. So perimenopause means around the time of menopause. So it's the lead up to the point at which our periods stop and it's the time when our hormones are fluctuating as they decline towards menopause. So it's when we're
Speaker 1: often starting to see many of the symptoms associated with menopause creeping in.
Speaker 1: The problem is many women don't know what those symptoms are that are associated with menopause. So we do think about hot flushes, maybe night sweats maybe getting a bit tearful
Speaker 1: And this was sort of my introduction to menopause when I turned 50. I thought okay, this is my heart first heart flush. This must be it. What actually followed was two years of quite debilitating symptoms that actually didn't have a lot to do with hot flushes. My heart flushes weren't too bad.
Speaker 1: What I was experiencing was horrific. Brain fog,
Speaker 1: poor concentration. Not being able to remember simple words, simple things.
Speaker 1: I meant to tell a story in the book about how I completely forgot that I had ordered quite a significant amount of equipment
Speaker 1: and I nearly placed the order for it again because I have no recollection of having done it. So the brain fog was real anxiety, low confidence migraines. There was all of these other things happening aches and pains and just all of these symptoms that I hadn't related to menopause. And after
Speaker 1: two years of struggling,
Speaker 1: I asked for a period of 12 months unpaid leave, which was something I worked in the public sector. I worked for the Ministry of Defense. So big public organization who very often approved periods of unpaid leave for a number of different reasons it could be as such sabbatical or
Speaker 1: to go and comment to other areas. So it was quite common. But they had a recruitment at that time. They had some financial constraints
Speaker 1: and they turned down my request. So I entered up
Speaker 1: Doing exactly as you said, you know, changing career at the age of 52. Walking away from a very long career. I've been with the m. o. d. for 32 years.
Speaker 1: My fear was I was either going to have to go on too long term sick leave with stress
Speaker 1: or walk away from the job. And I didn't want to go down the long term sick leave route.
Speaker 1: So I left as it happens, it turned out to be a great move. I feel very passionate about what I do now. But yet 900,000 women
Speaker 1: In the UK are expected to leave their job because of menopause over the next 12 months, nearly a million women. And that's an estimate because I didn't ever flag up that the reason I left my job at the time was menopause partly because I didn't realize it was all menopause. And partly because I was never asked
Speaker 1: when I left and I resigned. Nobody actually said, what is going on? Why are you leaving after this amount of time? Say
Speaker 1: yes, quite significant numbers of women in the UK. And I don't doubt that that's the same in Canada in the United States, in europe, all across the world. There will be women who are struggling.
Speaker 2: That brings me to a question that, you know, came up at actually one of our content meetings that life speak were, you know, I was starting to read about some of your work
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 2: You know, we're all of different ages on our content team ranging from 20's to 50s and we all sort of was we're thinking to ourselves and I think I have a better understanding now that I've read your book, but I'd love to hear you explain is how is menopause a workplace issue?
Speaker 1: I think
Speaker 1: it's not just menopause. I think women's reproductive health
Speaker 1: in general has to be a workplace issue. I think it would be very naive to think that the role of women in the workplace is ever going to be any different as it is now. Women want to be able to work. They don't want to be the housewife, staying at home, looking after the little man and actually they want to be adding value to the world. So
Speaker 1: We are in the workplace. In fact, in the UK, women over 50 are the fastest-growing sector of the workforce. So we are here and we are here to stay, but we come with a unique set of conditions, I guess because our bodies are complex
Speaker 1: were designed to reproduce, were designed to go through different reproductive stages
Speaker 1: and that, you know, with those hormonal changes that accompany that. We come with a different set of needs. That's not to say that women because of those changing hormones aren't capable of doing their job. There's plenty of evidence out there to show that organizations that have a really good, diverse mix of all genders within their workforce
Speaker 1: are the most profitable.
Speaker 1: We add a huge amount of value in the workplace.
Speaker 1: The reason I think that there's an opportunity within the workplace to raise awareness of menopause in particular
Speaker 1: Is because we know that I have to use the UK stats, I'm afraid because I don't know other countries, but we do know that in the UK around about 80% of women experiencing menopause are in work
Speaker 1: and a lack of knowledge and lack of awareness in the workplace means that many of those women don't feel that they can ask for the small,
Speaker 1: short term, reasonable workplace adjustments that might help them to stay productive and stay performing at their best, because there's still this pervading sense of taboo and stigma around menopause. So, I think as soon as workplaces can change the culture, I guess, around
Speaker 1: their perception of menopause and the perception of older women in the workplace, the more likely they are to really hang onto that valuable female experience, talent, skill, knowledge that they've built up over, you know, 30 years in the workplace,
Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't make sense not to recognize that from a workplace point of view, what is the alternative, we go back 100 years and women leave the workplace, but we know that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: So I think it's imperative really that workplaces and employers recognize that this is, it's a blip, really, you know, menopause can feel like it's lasting quite some time, but in the bigger picture, it's a small portion of a woman's life cycle, and a bit of support can keep her working and keep her productive
Speaker 1: and it's not just the workplace. I think there's more comes into that, you know, I think good medical advice, good medical support,
Speaker 1: better educational around for women, for everybody, really, and that support within the workplace,
Speaker 1: I genuinely can't think of any obvious reasons why it would be a downside for workplaces to support women,
Speaker 2: You know, as I was reading your book, you know, I was thinking a lot about how here in Canada there's a huge focus on creating policies that will support new mothers to get back to the workforce, you know, through things like subsidized daycare,
Speaker 1: so
Speaker 2: why shouldn't that be happening, you know, at the other end of a woman's childbearing years as
Speaker 1: well,
Speaker 2: you say that, you know, a better understanding of menopause can help retain valuable talent, a better understanding of working mothers as well.
Speaker 1: How
Speaker 2: can managers be supporting menopausal women?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to say it's not just menopausal women actually, so not everybody that experiences menopause is going to identifies as this woman. So what we really need to be thinking about is how do we support those going through hormonal disruption within the workplace? And that could be trans men, it could be non binary, could be men actually going through prostate treatment, for example, who have hormonal changes. So I think the best way that managers can manage anybody going through those hormonal disruptions
Speaker 1: is to come at it from a place of compassion to actually realize that they possibly carry their own assumptions and stereotypes and biases about what they think somebody going through menopause looks like. So, first of all, challenging their own assumptions, I think is key
Speaker 1: talking about menopause openly and making it a normalized conversation. So somebody who is experiencing symptoms and needs some help already knows that it's a safe space to go and speak to their manager to get help.
Speaker 1: And that comes really just from being open minded and compassionate
Speaker 1: and having some empathy. I think for a lot of male managers in particular, I think they fear saying the wrong thing and offending. And I think there's there's a couple of things going on here. First of all, I think as women, we have to let go of this feeling that menopause is somehow
Speaker 1: something to be ashamed of and therefore something to become defensive about.
Speaker 1: If a manager is concerned that you're struggling because of menopause, but doesn't feel comfortable that they could
Speaker 1: broach that subject with you for fear of offending, then they're not going to want to have that conversation. So as women, I think we can make it easy for our managers to have those conversations
Speaker 2: who might be other women of other generations right
Speaker 1: or other women absolutely, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: And at a practical level, you know, it's looking it's being able as a manager to look at how flexible that, you know, the role can be. So not being rigid in what this is the way the job has to be done. And this is the way it gets, it's always been done and this is the way
Speaker 1: it has to be done in the future.
Speaker 1: Being able to think, well, actually, what could we do to make the person who's struggling with menopause symptoms to make their job a little bit easier.
Speaker 1: Most of the support that is needed is temporary.
Speaker 1: So it's not necessary. Long term menopause is a temporary transition. So things like looking at workplace adjustments,
Speaker 1: simple things like allowing somebody to take a few extra breaks, not being too rich about when somebody goes to the toilet
Speaker 1: looking at the environment to see if it's actually likely to make symptoms worse. So, if you've got somebody working,
Speaker 1: perhaps working in a hot kitchen, for example, if they're a chef and they're working in a hot kitchen, allowing them enough time to be able to go and get some fresh air at regular intervals to cool down. Thinking about if there are uniform policies, are they so rigid or could they be relaxed? So if somebody is struggling,
Speaker 1: then maybe they can relax
Speaker 1: the uniform policy, You know, the uniform restrictions. It could be things like
Speaker 1: changing the working patterns in terms of start times finished times working from home? Obviously, Covid has almost forced that on many people,
Speaker 1: some women have found it a real bonus
Speaker 1: to manage their own time and their symptoms. Other women have told me they found it really isolating if anxiety and a sense of isolation is some of their symptoms. They found that actually being at home and not being part of the team has been a problem.
Speaker 1: I think I have a line manager can really support is to listen,
Speaker 1: find out what would help and be open minded about how they put their support in place and having regular conversations is key.
Speaker 1: General, good management, good people management.
Speaker 2: It sounds like what you're saying in order to sort of get the ball rolling, is we all need to be more open about it. Women need to be more open at work that they're experiencing it, which would then, you know, make managers feel perhaps more comfortable talking about it.
Speaker 1: But in order for women to do that, they've got to feel safe. They've got to know that they're not going to be disadvantaged, that they've got to know that they're not going to be ridiculed or in any way sort of discriminated against. If they do put their head above the parapet and say, I'm struggling, I need some help.
Speaker 1: The onus isn't just on the manager, I think it has to be on the organization as a whole to really make it clear that
Speaker 1: okay as a business,
Speaker 1: we recognize and we will support women going through this and it's okay to open up about it. You're not going to have, you know, you're not going to be overlooked for promotion, you're not going to be overlooked for projects. We recognize that this is a temporary need.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about menopause policy.
Speaker 1: Civil
Speaker 2: service in the UK now has a menopause policy. I understand what does that look like?
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm not a member of the civil service anymore, but I have had sight of their policy.
Speaker 1: It's quite robust from what I'm saying. It looks at helping all colleagues to understand what menopause is, when and why it happens, you know, so there's a knowledge peace within that menopause, but they also believe have a reasonable adjustments, passport.
Speaker 1: So any adjustments are workplace adaptations that are put in place in one role, They have a passport that they take with them if they move roles within the organization, so they're not having to reinvent the wheel with a new manager and obviously the manager then has sight of the passport and they know what they need to be putting in place.
Speaker 2: So what is in that passport?
Speaker 1: Well, it's going to depend on the individual's needs, but generally it will be things like, you know, if somebody has an adapted working pattern
Speaker 1: that would be in the passport, so they would take that adapted working pattern into their new role. So they're not having to renegotiate all of those adjustments again, or it could be, you know,
Speaker 1: reasonable adjustment, passports have been used in lots of other areas for people who maybe have back problems whereby they, you know, they take their ergonomically designed chair, that's just for them. They take that with them and the passport kind of details
Speaker 1: what's been put in place to support their well being in the workplace.
Speaker 1: Other things that the policy has is sort of direction around absence management. How do you manage somebody's absence if it's menopause related?
Speaker 1: If you think about the range of different symptoms, they can be very broad and almost when you look at them individually, they seem very disconnected. So, you know,
Speaker 1: hot flushes, anxiety and migraine. You wouldn't look at them and put them under the same condition.
Speaker 1: So I think that if I remember rightly, the Civil service policy does look at sort of absence management. And where do people hit trigger points and what can be grouped together under one condition and perhaps written off as one of absences? I think it also talks about performance management. If somebody's underperforming due to
Speaker 1: perhaps brain fog or anxiety related to menopause?
Speaker 1: What can managers do? What does the policy layout, you know, what are the guidelines for managers managing somebody going through that?
Speaker 1: So it's quite robust
Speaker 1: in the UK, we don't have,
Speaker 1: it's not mandated for businesses to have a menopause policy,
Speaker 1: it's not an obligation, It's it's a choice of the organization, whether they do go down the policy route. It's definitely seen as best practice.
Speaker 1: I think what a policy does more than anything is. It allows everybody in the organization to recognize that
Speaker 1: as a business. They support menopause and are pro actively doing something to put measures in place to support those experiencing menopause. But
Speaker 1: I guess a policy on its own is realistic. It's a bit of paper doesn't necessarily change behaviors, attitudes or cultures, but it's a starting point and, you know, for big organizations like the Civil service, it makes sense to have a policy. So everybody is doing the right thing to the same standards.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about how it works when you were doing trainings with employers about menopause? What is involved in that training?
Speaker 1: Okay, so generally speaking, where I get involved is at the training level. So I do a little bit of consultancy around, you know,
Speaker 1: what other measures can be put in place. Things like policy or other campaigns that they might want to do in terms of getting the conversation going and keeping it going. But in the main, I talk to people across the board, it's very much knowledge sharing. So I want to raise awareness
Speaker 1: of the impact of menopause. So I talk generally in three areas, I guess I talk on a general high level
Speaker 1: overview of what menopause is to all employees, male, female, young old syria, junior, all genders, it affects everybody. So I want everybody to know
Speaker 1: what menopause is at least at a basic level.
Speaker 1: So they understand the implications of the symptoms, the impact they can have on somebody's quality of life because I think once you've got that awareness where more likely to be a bit more tolerant, a little bit more open minded, a little bit more forgiving if somebody's having an off day or somebody's performance dips. So it's very much about that initial awareness.
Speaker 1: In other ways. I train, I go in and work with groups of managers to help them to feel more confident to have those supportive conversations around menopause to understand what their legal obligations are
Speaker 1: in the UK, menopause isn't
Speaker 1: a protected characteristic in the same way that sort of sex and disability and pregnancy and things like that are. So sometimes managers that they don't have an obligation to kind of think about menopause from a discriminatory point of view, so do kind of make them aware that
Speaker 1: it may not be a protected characteristic in its own right.
Speaker 1: But we do have protection for those going through menopause under things like sex discrimination, age discrimination, disability discrimination,
Speaker 1: of course, I'm talking UK employment law here
Speaker 1: and then I also talked to groups of women themselves about how they can manage their menopause. So from a health and well being point of view, you'll know in the book, I talk about nest, looking more holistically at sort of eating well through good nutrition, getting exercise, managing sleep and stress
Speaker 1: and also challenging some of the thoughts and feelings of the mindset that women have that can often make their situation worse. So if we have a mindset that actually I can't open up about menopause because people think I'm weak
Speaker 1: or they'll think I'm failing often. That's perception. So we challenge
Speaker 1: what kind of challenge the mindset piece as well in the training. So it's very much training and coaching.
Speaker 2: It's interesting when you're you were speaking about sort of being able to speak about how you're feeling and not feel
Speaker 1: judged.
Speaker 2: It does make me think about where we've been at, especially since the start of the pandemic around mental health and people who are experiencing mental health challenges and being able to speak more openly about
Speaker 1: it
Speaker 2: and not feel judged by some of the things that they're experiencing, What do you want younger women to know about menopause?
Speaker 2: I, for one who I am on the brink of it myself, I feel like I knew nothing
Speaker 1: until
Speaker 2: I was on the verge of it and now I'm starting to read about it and understand it, but I didn't learn anything about it when I was younger. So what would you like younger women to know now, so that they don't sort of fear this phase of their life that will come at some point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think you've just answered it, I want, I would love women who are coming towards us to be far better informed and better educated than you and I were
Speaker 1: I would like them to come at it from a place of ownership.
Speaker 1: So they know what's coming. They know they can cope with it. It's not a mystery.
Speaker 1: And I think the big thing is forewarned is forearmed. If we know what's coming, we can be prepared for it.
Speaker 1: So I guess not to fear it would be my biggest wish. I think
Speaker 1: I hear so many women who tell me that they're terrified at the idea of hitting menopause. You know, it scares them
Speaker 1: and we have to remember that it's a bumpy road, you know, there are a few lumps and bumps as we go through perimenopause,
Speaker 1: but it's a very natural life stage. It's a bit like pregnancy and giving birth. We only ever hear the horror stories, don't we? Nobody ever tells us what a great labor they had and how easy it was. We and lots of women have a very easy labor.
Speaker 1: So I don't want younger women to feel fearful.
Speaker 1: It's a really empowering time. You know, I changed career and started my own business at the age of 52 and I'm absolutely loving life. So it's definitely not the end. It's the start of a new chapter. It's a bit different, but don't fear it. And the best way to overcome that fear is through education,
Speaker 1: find out before
Speaker 1: you get there what it is you can expect and be ready for it.
Speaker 1: My dad used to say you can deal with anything if you know what it is you're dealing with. And I think that's the problem. I don't know if you agree with your experience Marianne, but my biggest problem was
Speaker 1: I felt out of control. I didn't feel I had any control over what was happening and as soon as I did more research, as soon as I started to educate myself about what was going on,
Speaker 1: suddenly it put me back in the driving seat and I could take you know, decisive action about how I wanted to manage those symptoms, how I wanted to think and feel about this whole process
Speaker 1: and that's it actually really empowering
Speaker 1: lack of control is scary. So making sure that you know there's younger women coming through aren't feeling out of control because they'll be in the driving seat.
Speaker 2: That is the feeling out of control at one of my close friends and I, you know whenever there's some strange symptom that one of us gets or have been getting over the previous
Speaker 1: years,
Speaker 2: you know, we always just right, Wild West, we text each other, we just say oh it's the Wild west, that's what it feels like. Yeah, because you don't know much.
Speaker 1: I want to go
Speaker 2: back to you mentioned some of the positives, I want to hear a bit more about what you think some of the positives are about going through menopause.
Speaker 1: Okay. I think, I mean there are other practical ones for many women Not having periods anymore is a blessing.
Speaker 1: I'm very conscious that if somebody struggles with fertility, that might not be a blessing.
Speaker 1: And that might be a feeling of again a loss of control.
Speaker 1: But for most women, I think not having the hassle of a monthly period is probably a blessing.
Speaker 1: Not having to worry about getting pregnant is another blessing
Speaker 1: Forgetting the practical stuff. I think I have quite a I guess a very personal reason for thinking it's it's a great time because you know, my mom, I'm 56 now, my mom didn't make it this far. So for me it's a real privilege to come through the other side of it. It's a privilege that so many women aren't
Speaker 1: you know, they're denied because they don't live long enough. So
Speaker 1: one of the advantages is we get this next chapter, we get to do what we want in our next chapter because we actually a bit less encumbered by some of the stuff that we have to deal with when we're younger. We don't have generally young Children.
Speaker 1: Some do. But most of us our Children have kind of grown up and moved on. They're more independent. So we get a bit more time to ourselves,
Speaker 1: got a bit more disposable income.
Speaker 1: And I think there's something I don't know why I can't give you any scientific reason for this. But I definitely think there's something happens in our head that we start to care a bit less about what other people think of us. And that means that we can actually do the things we want to do the way we want to do them. And we can find our own style and our own path
Speaker 1: almost without worrying too much that
Speaker 1: it might be a bit eccentric or a little bit, you know, out there. And I would say embrace that. This is absolutely a great time to reinvent the person you kind of maybe always wished you could have been. But hadn't been,
Speaker 1: I would never, in a million years have thought I would ever run a business.
Speaker 1: It was so far away from my sort of
Speaker 1: what I thought would have been my path. And yet here I am absolutely loving it. Talking to you on the other, you know, the other side of the ocean on a podcast.
Speaker 1: Who knew I would be doing this at 56.
Speaker 1: It's just the best time to kind of grow.
Speaker 2: I always like to ask all of my guests what is making you feel hopeful and optimistic
Speaker 2: during what has been a very difficult couple of years for the entire world.
Speaker 1: What has that
Speaker 2: been for you?
Speaker 1: I think I'm generally quite an optimistic person anyway. I think
Speaker 1: I think just knowing that whatever happens, we'll handle it.
Speaker 1: I've just reread Sue Jeffers, feel the fear and do it anyway book. I don't know if you've read it, but she talks about you know this mantra, whatever happens, I'll handle it
Speaker 1: and I think we are coming out of this pan Debbie,
Speaker 1: fingers crossed, we're coming out of it
Speaker 1: and we've handled it. I'm not saying that, you know, it's been easier. I'm not saying people haven't really struggled through it,
Speaker 1: but they've handled it. So I think whatever life throws at us,
Speaker 1: we will handle it. And that for me keeps me optimistic
Speaker 1: often. The worst things that happened actually create some of the best growth, don't they?
Speaker 1: Kind of come out stronger and you come out wiser. So I think I always just focus on well whatever happens, I will get through it and I'll come out stronger from it.
Speaker 2: Your book is called The Business of menopause. A guide for working women. Bev Thorogood, thank you so much for speaking with me
Speaker 1: today. My pleasure. Thanks Marianne
Speaker 2: for more about this episode. Go to life Speak dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2: No