Unpacking Apple’s New Video Venture

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:00  
The podcast Super Friends, five podcast pros talking tech promotion, marketing, ideas and strategy.

Matt Cundill  0:12  
It's the podcast Super Friends from the month of March. I'm Matt Cundill. You might not recommend recognize my background. That's because I'm in Malta, Spain. And this happens once a year, where I sort of beg the Super Friends, could you please, please give me another time to do this? And they've all sort of bent their time into the midday. So we'll go around the around the horn here, and we'll find out who's who and what's what.

Johnny Podcasts  0:34  
Hey everybody. I am Johnny from Johnny podcast, happy to be here.

Jon Gay  0:39  
John Gay Jag, podcast productions outside Detroit, Michigan.

Catherine O'Brien  0:43  
Oh, hello. It's Catherine O'Brien checking in from the Deep South. Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

David Yas  0:49  
Hola, amigos yo, soy fiesta. David Yaz pot, 617, dot com, Boston, Podcast Network rock spike.

Matt Cundill  0:56  
And we got a guest today. I've invited Justin Jackson from transistor.fm to join us on the show today. I believe you're our first Canadian guest. Welcome to the show. What?

Justin Jackson  1:07  
Yeah, calling in from British Columbia, just four hours east of Vancouver, in the beautiful interior.

Matt Cundill  1:16  
I'm gonna jump right into it, because Apple made an announcement a few weeks ago, and I thought you were really the best person to come on the show to talk about this today, because you and I had a conversation in Calgary at pod summit YYC, where we talked a lot about HLS and Apple jumping into video over the last few weeks has caused a lot of stir in the industry. So what's your immediate take? Why did Apple do this and jump into what is the second part of video? Because they've already done video for a while, but now they're jumping into video in a different form, in HLS.

Justin Jackson  1:50  
That's right, yeah. And over at the podcast standards project, we've been talking a lot about this. We did a big push on helping people understand HLS and HLS video. The reason we were interested in it at the podcast Standards Project is because we just felt like there needed to be an answer to YouTube and Spotify going into video. There was no real aside from the old way of doing it, just putting a video enclosure inside your RSS feed. There's no modern way to deliver video to podcast consumers that like to consume video, and so we did a big push on it. Fountain. True fans adopted it. And the dream the prayer was, Apple please do something you know, as the benevolent, benevolent benefactors of the RSS, the open podcasting ecosystem, we thought like, if Apple could come in and adopt the standard, that would be a big deal. So they did not the way we wanted to, exactly it's not delivered via RSS. It's delivered via API. Overall, I'm pleased about it. I think it doesn't preclude them from eventually, you know, ingesting HLS video streams from RSS in the future, if they want to. I think I know why they did it this way, where you need to be a special API partner. Video introduces some things that we haven't had to deal with with podcasting, like, who's gonna review all of this video material for awful images and pornography and violence and whatever else. So there's some there's some challenges there. And overall, I'm excited. I think this is a good move for Apple. There's lots of open questions whether this will actually how much this will matter and who it will matter for, but overall, I'm pleased that they made a move, and that they made this kind of move, it's very different than YouTube's approach and Spotify approach, right?

Matt Cundill  4:07  
So from that I got, I know what YouTube I know what a video is on YouTube where you know that's a podcast on YouTube. I know that if I upload a video to Spotify, it's a podcast on Spotify. What's HLS? How is this different?

Justin Jackson  4:24  
So HLS is just a technology that Apple actually invented for doing live video events, and it's just a way of streaming video reliably over the internet. You instead of like downloading the whole video file, you send it in little chunks, usually six second chunks. And you can also adjust your resolution on the fly for, you know, interconnection, internet connection speeds device. So if you're on a smaller device, let's just drop this down to 720 p or 10 ADP. If you are on a good internet connection and a big TV, you can increase it dynamically on the fly, and you only send what the consumer has consumed. So instead of them having to download a whole 15 gigabyte video episode to their phone, which is why a lot of us haven't gotten into video. You know, the old Apple podcast way. You can just give it to them in chunks and just track their consumption that way. And if they stop watching you can you stop delivering the video. They can switch to audio only if they want to. So if they're walking home listening to it in their air pods, and then they get home and they want to throw the video up on their TV. They can switch from audio to video seamlessly, which introduces a new paradigm that I think some people aren't going to like, but is going to become the paradigm, which is, this is basically how it works on YouTube and Spotify, but you upload a video, and then the audio track of that video will become your audio podcast as well. I know a lot of people don't like that. I think it's probably the right decision if you're going to do video, because you have to be able to switch between these things reliably. But yeah, that's basically what it is. Okay?

Matt Cundill  6:20  
So you've got transistor.fm it's a hosting platform. You're not included in this apple first launch as it is right now, is transistor going to come on board and be part of this in the future?

Justin Jackson  6:33  
We're, we're trying to, yeah, well, I can't say too much, because there's all these NDAs, but basically they've spoken to most of the major hosting platforms and and, you know, given them the opportunity to participate, it makes sense why they launched with the initial four partners. Each of those hosting platforms are basically backed by an ad network. And so a big part of this push is the advertising side of this where Apple is actually going to be collecting a fee for every ad delivery, which is also new on the Apple side. So yeah, it made sense that they launched with those four partners. And I think you'll see not all of the major hosting providers jump in, but I think you're going to see a fair number of them jump in as well, not just with HLS video on Apple, by the way, I think is going to be fairly niche if we take even transistors customer base, I think we know about 70, 80% of our customers are already producing audio and video episodes. I think those folks, maybe 10 20% of them, will end up paying the extra bill to host video or Apple HLS, because it's going to cost more you're paying bandwidth and the hosting, as opposed to YouTube and Spotify, where the bandwidth and hosting is free. So I think it'll be, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out, because I think most people want to be on YouTube if they're doing a video podcast, and that's where most of the consumers are. And so who's going to be interested in Apple HLS video, I think, especially podcasts that have a very, an older kind of lucrative audience on Apple podcasts, maybe someone like the acquired podcast, where they have a bunch of executives and hard reach audience that are really worth a lot to advertisers. I think they're going to be very interested in Apple HLS video, but I don't think it's going to be unless Apple does something really dramatic. I don't think it's going to be as popular as posting your episode on YouTube basically

Jon Gay  9:00  
all of Johnny's clients, is what you're talking about right now. About right now, something you mentioned a moment ago, Justin so you talked about downloading in chunks. And to your point, if you've got even an hour long podcast at 1080, is like a six gigabyte video file. Of course, 4k is going to be enormously bigger than that. If I the consumer, want to download an hour long podcast in 4k is it gonna is that day gonna be a data cost to my device and or storage to my, say, iPhone, if I want to watch it

Justin Jackson  9:34  
on there? No, it basically, it's just like watching something on Netflix. Okay, Netflix is using the same technology. HLS, you will be able to download it if you want, like, the same way, like, before you get on an airplane, you can download stuff on YouTube and Netflix. And I will say, my guess is very few people will be doing 4k out of the gate. I think it's hard. I think. 1080p will be the high resolution version. And then, you know, there will be a 720 and even maybe lower than that. So we're not talking about super high resolutions. To start fountain, the podcasting app. They also do HLS video in the open ecosystem. And I think they they're doing 1080 and 720 right now, but eventually, you know, there might be people that want to increase that, but 1080 I think, will be the target.

Johnny Podcasts  10:30  
Is that on the fountain side, or is that on the consumer side? If I was uploading a 4k video to found, would it just be capped at 1080

Justin Jackson  10:39  
Yeah, I think they're gonna re encode it at 1080 just be for a number of reasons, partly because we're all getting used to this is just a whole new ball game for hosting providers too. We're used to managing 50 150 megabyte files and managing the hosting and then we have to re ENCODE. So someone uploads a 15 gigabyte video file to us, we have to re encode that in different resolutions for HLS delivery, and we have to put it into these HLS manifests, which are basically like it's a text file that says, here's the resolutions you have, we have to take the audio out. So the video on Apple podcasts will have no audio, and then there will be a separate audio track. That's how they're going to manage the the switching. So there's a lot of work to do on our end that we just have never had to do before. Yeah, and you know, a lot of the what's interesting about the podcast industry is it's really built on these small, independent companies. Like, the biggest player for ever was Libsyn, and it's really small. Like, maybe the global podcast hosting market is, maybe does $150 million in revenue a year. It's so tiny, it's like nothing. And so these small, little independent companies are having to now figure out, how are we going to deliver a video experience that's really on par you know? This is what Netflix does. This is what YouTube does. This is what Vimeo has done and actually didn't do that well, they just got acquired by private equity firm. So it's going to be a challenge on our side. It's nice. Apple has been a as a partner. They they are saying, Hey, we're here if you need us. Here's, you know, the specs we're going to use. Here's our guidance on how to do it. So there is some help there, but, yeah, it'll be interesting. And like I said, there's going to be tons of questions about who is going to review video material. We're going to get around that at transistor, because we are a paid product, and you have to use a credit card when you sign up with us. So I think we're going to have a natural filter, right? You got to pay probably 49 $99 a month to for Apple HLS video, so that will filter out a lot of maybe bad actors. But this is going to be, this is the wild west right now, like, how are we gonna deal with that?

Johnny Podcasts  13:21  
Can I touch on one thing that you mentioned about having to re encode all of these videos at different resolutions? Have you guys looked into and I'm not in your world? So this could be just a really kindergarten level question. Yeah, there are tools out there, like handbrake cloud, convert things that take really large files and shrink them down. Is that part of the process?

Justin Jackson  13:39  
Yeah, we're going to be, most of us will be using FFmpeg, which is the, it's what everybody in the industry uses. Like, Facebook uses it to encode all their video. So there's good tools and handbrake, and a lot of those tools are just built on top of FFmpeg, okay, it's, you can do this yourself. Like, I mean, even handbrake like, so you remember the old handbrake days, you would like, you'd rip a video off a DVD or something, and then you like, have to re ENCODE. It takes for friggin ever, right? And processes have gotten better. But, you know, I've got really fast machines here. And like, re encoding an HLS video is like, it takes time. It's not like, it's not like it's it's impossible, but like we can we, if you upload a audio file to transistor right now, we can re encode it and process it in like, 510, seconds. It's so fast. But when you go from 50, 150 megabyte files, up to four gigabyte, 10 gigabyte, 15 gigabyte, it's just like, wow, this is, yeah, there's a lot more work, and the fact that you have to go through the process multiple times, right? Like, we need, okay, we need a 10 ADP, MP four, and then we need a 720, p2 Before. And then we need the audio,

Johnny Podcasts  15:03  
even a 360 for someone that's using, like an iPhone three.

Justin Jackson  15:06  
Yeah, I think there's three resolutions you need. And then, and then you also have to for for people scrubbing. You also need to provide snapshots throughout the video of images and stuff. So, yeah, it's a, it's gonna be some work for sure.

Johnny Podcasts  15:26  
So ultimately, encoding and compressing are this are used interchangeably, that's, yeah,

Justin Jackson  15:31  
yeah, yeah. Part of the encoding process is you're gonna, you're gonna be encoding it at a different resolution or a different file format or whatever. Yeah.

Johnny Podcasts  15:41  
Thankfully, one more proof. Sorry, one more follow up. I'll let someone else ask a question. Will HLS require any kind of new file format for uploading? Because I believe, as of right now, it's like dot mov or.mp for are the ones that are?

Justin Jackson  15:55  
Yeah, I think most people will just take MP fours and MOVs. There's some like, YouTube takes AVI files and a few other ones, but

Johnny Podcasts  16:07  
it shouldn't be too different from the consumer standpoint.

Justin Jackson  16:10  
Yeah, technically, you can re encode anything,

David Yas  16:13  
yeah, okay, I have a question, yeah, so pardon me if I'm just ruthlessly poking holes in Apple's plan here, but President, a lot of us on this call for our clients, we produce, possibly for myself, most of my clients want video podcasts, so I have cameras set up in my studio. I shoot the video, I record the audio, I create two different versions of the podcast. Why you can, you can edit a lot more aggressively in audio. You can take out all the ums and uhs. You try to do that in video, it'll look like it's, you know, stop motion or something. It'll look so I wonder if people with this apple plan might start uploading. So you're, you're on simple cast to one of the four that does this. Now, right? You're on some you might do an episode that is labeled audio only, because that way, if you're just an audio list listener, and that's all you care about, you're listening to a more, theoretically more crisp show, of course, you upload the video, but you still got to upload the video to YouTube, because that's where a heck of a lot more people are watching. So I wonder if this, either this might not catch on, or at some point, there might be a deal with YouTube to, kind of, you know, bring all the families together. I don't know.

Justin Jackson  17:39  
Well, I don't think, I think so that the paradigm here is interesting. So, I mean, we ran into this when we were doing our HLS tests. Is So Stephen Robles has a show called primary technology. He was like one of the first people to try it out, and he produces a separate audio experience from his video experience. But when you introduce this switching paradigm, which has now become the default, so anyone uploading their video right now to YouTube and putting it in a podcast playlist in YouTube music, the default behavior is you click play, you're watching the video, but then you can switch to the audio only track, right? And that's just taking the audio from the videos. Spotify does the same thing. I think that switching paradigm is here to stay, and therefore this idea of having a separate audio experience may still be a thing, but like you say, it may be. You might have that as a separate episode, or, ironically, you might have it as a separate feed, which is something we were trying to get away from. You know, like in the open podcast ecosystem, you put your HLS video feed as the alternate enclosure, so you still have the primary audio enclosure, and then again, on fountain. Right now, you switching between the HLS video stream and the audio file. But in in actual usage, when people have been using it, they're like, How come when I switch from the video to the audio file, it's at a different spot? People don't like that experience. So in order for consumers to have this experience that we think they want, which is, sometimes they want to just switch to the video, see what people are talking about on screen, and switch back. Sometimes they're like, I said, walking home or driving home, and then they get home and they want to watch the rest of the episode on video, you need the switching UI paradigm, but really the only way to get that in a clean way is you have to use the audio track from the video. So I think people get creative about it. You know, maybe the audio experience becomes premium content, or maybe it becomes a separate audio feed for the people. People that just want that experience. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But it is that paradigm is already the default paradigm on YouTube music and on Spotify. That's how it works right now.

David Yas  20:15  
It could be that we just have to live with it, and I'm willing to accept that, however, kicking and screaming. Just to give a super quick example of how the experiences are different. If you're watching a video and someone's telling a story and they suddenly and kind of without notice, they get emotional, and they put their hand over their face like this or something. Yeah, watching that on video, you're probably riveted. Oh, my God. What's happening? Why is he so emotional? Yeah, thing on audio. You think your audio just cut out? Yeah, yeah, it's a silence. There must be some mistake. What's going on? Yeah. Now, most podcasts don't have a ton of those moments, but I guess I'll say, I'll go kicking and screaming. But I think it's too bad hear what the rest of the super friends think.

Johnny Podcasts  21:04  
I think it changes listener expectations, or the like, the expectations from the listener change. So I agree with Justin. I think the switching back and forth is like, it has to be as seamless as possible. So I think what that changes on our end, from a you know, editor, producer, manager standpoint, is you're not going to be doing as much hard audio editing. It is going to be just the video podcast is the primary product that's being put out. People will switch back and forth. And as that becomes more the norm, people will be okay with the occasional, the occasional, because they understand it's on video. And like you said, you don't want that hop, skip and a jump editing kind of flashing in front of your face.

Catherine O'Brien  21:46  
Plus, I'm going to just throw in here. I again, I we have seen AI now that has the audio function. People are now interacting with AI talking back and forth. AI is adding in ums and breathing and pausing noises, they're adding in to sound more human. So I feel for all the the editor the podcast editors, that were pulling out every micro second of an um, and now AI is putting it back in, I think that they are trying to sound more human. The podcast editors are going to do the same.

David Yas  22:18  
I'm going to launch a new show called filler words, and that's all

Justin Jackson  22:23  
it is. I think the other thing we need to be careful about, I wrote this post on the podcast standards blog called playing the game on the field, and the premise is that we in the podcast industry have our shibboleths. We have these things that we believe. We have these these things that we the way we see the world. We want the world to be, the way that we see it. And the truth is, is we're playing we have to play the game on the field, which means, what do consumers what do audiences want? What do they expect? What do they think a podcast is? And the best way to get an answer for this is the next time you're at a podcast conference and you get in an Uber, ask the Uber if they're into podcasts, the Uber driver if they're into podcasts. And these are the answers I get, oh, yeah, I love podcasts. And I go, Oh, well, where do you consume podcasts? Oh, I'm I get my podcasts on Instagram, I get them on YouTube. And I'm like, so you're like, watching the video while you're driving. Oh no, no. Like, on my break, I'm like, watching the video, and then sometimes I'll just put it on, you know, in the background while I'm driving. Okay, so to them a long Instagram reel, and this particular person that I'm thinking of right now was trying to get into the fashion industry. So they're consuming all this like content about the fashion industry and how people get into that business. That's a very podcasty job to be done for a listener or a consumer, right? Like, oh, I'm really into this topic. I'm going to go find some podcasts about the fashion industry. Well, this person is going to find some podcasts, quote, unquote, about the fashion industry, on YouTube, on Instagram. Reels to them, that's a podcast. That's the game on the field, whether we like it or not. And then this, this whole topic gets even more interesting. And this is Apple's big problem. This is their big challenge. Is, I don't know how old you guys are. I'm 1980 so I'm like, either a young Gen X or an old millennial. Where's Daniels? I'm also 1980 xennials. Where's Daniels. So we grew up with a very particular upbringing. For me, it was am radio, you know, in the family car, and then it became iTunes and iPods, and then it became, eventually, the Apple iPhone. So if you survey, you. The especially all these zenials in the podcast industry. Lot of us grew up on iTunes and Apple podcasts. That's our mental model. It's like Apple podcast. That's where it happens. If you survey Gen Z, it's YouTube, YouTube, yeah. And we probably all have kids, like, I've got 16 to 22 year olds and watch how they are consuming quote, unquote podcasts like my 16 year old son is into this YouTuber called moist critical. Have you guys heard of this? He's like a guy that's just on screen. He's got a little microphone dangling from his ear. He kind of looks like Jesus, and it looks like a podcast. He's just sitting there at his desk, you know, talking about stuff, and my son's like cooking eggs, watching moist critical, and then when he's ready to move on for his day, he puts his phone in his pocket. He's still listening to moist critical. Is that a podcast? Well, I don't know, but that's the game on the field, because that 16 year old is going to become an 18 year old and a 22 year old, and eventually, hopefully, a 25 year old with a job, and who's going to be in the car, and is he going to be going to Apple podcasts, or is he going to be just continuing to listen to moist Critical on his drive on YouTube, less friction that way. That's the challenge for Apple right now, and I think it's one of the reasons they got into video is because they have a generational cliff coming, which is their most lucrative audience is Gen X and xennials that grew up with iPods, but YouTube is gobbling up everything else. Spotify really gobbled up a lot of millennial listenership and consumers. Apple has a generational problem. They have a demographic problem, and it'll be interesting to see if they are they gonna put budget behind this, like, are they gonna have an advertising campaign that tries to convince younger people to go to that app on their phone that they've never gone to before? There's a lot of unanswered questions about how much uptake this is going to get.

Johnny Podcasts  27:19  
There has to be some kind of advertising incentive. Because if you want the if you want the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids to go over to Apple podcasts, you have to get the creators over there first, and they may have to work backwards and approach someone like moist critical and say, hey, you know, we want you to be a preferred partner on the new Apple podcasts. Put all of your YouTube videos up here, you'll get the same ad revenue. You're gonna get much more exposure. It's a brand new platform for you. So I wonder if you kind of back work it, maybe

Jon Gay  27:48  
start with somebody not named moist. Yeah,

Johnny Podcasts  27:52  
he's huge. He's gigantic.

Justin Jackson  27:56  
I'd say get moist.

Johnny Podcasts  27:58  
Critical. Get critical. Moist.

Matt Cundill  28:04  
Justin, do you think that Apple's done this right? And tough for you to say? Because I know, I know transistor needs to, you know, to work with Apple.

Johnny Podcasts  28:11  
We love apple. What we love?

Justin Jackson  28:13  
Yeah, it's interesting to me. It's, I mean, oh, that's so true. Like, if I was doing strategy for Apple. I don't know if I would go this way. So it is a risky bet, because, again, uploading video to YouTube is free, and they have great distribution. And by the way, YouTube is not just eating podcasting's lunch. YouTube is eating everybody's lunch. Netflix is worried about YouTube. The movie theater Paramount's worried about YouTube. Everybody's worried about YouTube. YouTube is eating all of media, all of culture. It is a big gorilla in the room for all of us. My wife and

Jon Gay  28:55  
I are, like, just as likely at night to be watching something on YouTube as we are on cable or Netflix or whatever

Justin Jackson  29:00  
this is, I mean, and across every demographic. Like, you go to my mother in law's house and you think, Oh, she's watching cable news or something. No, she's watching some farmer with chickens on YouTube. Like, that's, this is what's happening, right?

Jon Gay  29:15  
She's not watching moist critical.

Speaker 1  29:18  
She should not watch Charlie's great.

Johnny Podcasts  29:20  
They have the YouTube has YouTube music, YouTube has YouTube TV. Live sports has nowhere to go. They go to YouTube TV. Yeah, it's, it's, they're, they're even just beyond the YouTube specific platform.

Justin Jackson  29:31  
So it's interesting. So Apple's corner is interesting because they're not ad driven, even with this new deal, I don't think this, I don't this new deal with them, helping to deliver ads is interesting, but their business model is selling iPhones. And I've long thought that the positioning for Apple podcasts is like, Hey, we're the company and we're the podcast, the app that we don't need to make you a day. Connected to some Doom scrolly feed, like the beauty of Apple podcasts, or even any podcasting focused app is it's mindful, it's slow media. It's the media that gets you off your couch, off the Doom scroll air buds in out in the fresh air, walking your dog like these are kind of counter cultural images that a lot of people are struggling with. They're struggling with phone addiction and all these other things. And so it's like, oh, there's some positioning here, where it's like, Apple podcasts is not Tiktok. And if they add video podcasts, it's not going to be like my kids, biggest struggle with YouTube is they the shorts. They're trying to always get rid of the shorts, because they're like, this is addicting me. Like they recognize it themselves, that brain rot, you know, like all this brain rot on YouTube, and they see how the platform is pulling them in and just giving them this mindless, you know, consumption, and so it's what I hope Apple does is position this as a mindful alternative. You can get this long form content that's both audio and video, that where the primary objective is not to make you addicted and doom. Scroll for six hours. It's get outside, go for a hike, put their their air pods in, and you get 45 minutes with, you know, some interesting piece of content. So we'll see how they position it. They're going to need the creators. I think that's Jake's job at Apple. Is creator partnerships. So they're working with creators, you know? And, yeah, we'll see what they can do.

Matt Cundill  31:51  
Jake is Jake Shapiro, right?

Justin Jackson  31:54  
So they're working with creators. They're trying to get people on there. I I'm, I'm hoping they're making the right moves. I mean, if you talk to people, dig nation relaunched their podcast on transistor, and I was talking to Kevin Rose, and he was like, man, like we missed the old days. Like we missed the old days when we could deliver video over RSS, because he said we had so much leverage with sponsors, with how we did everything, it's like YouTube for them is like, it's like, maybe it gets them a little bit more distribution. But their advantage was they built up this organically. They built up this big audience that was subscribed to their RSS feed who were looking forward to that next episode. So he's wanted Apple to do something new for a while. So I think some creators have been like waiting for this. But again, it all depends, like, if the audience isn't there, we got to play the game on the field. And the other interesting thing about Apple is that, like, none of us can really influence the game on the field that much, like we can't influence consumer behavior. We really just have to, I say, like we don't make the waves. We ride them. Like we're riding we're riding whatever waves are out there. But Apple, big companies, actually can not always perfectly, like, there's lots of failures, but Apple can influence consumer behavior. So they have the budget, they have the install base, they have over a billion phones or whatever. They have the cultural capital as a brand that people like. So there is an opportunity there. They might flub it. The other unanswered question is, Apple TV was not a part of this initial release. Big question mark there. What are they gonna do there? But to me, that's gotta be the eventual play is that instead of, you know, right now, I go home and I've got all the icons on my Apple TV, it's like, do I choose Paramount plus, or Netflix or YouTube? And I'm choosing YouTube eight times out of 10. Can Apple position Apple podcast is, instead of going to YouTube, I go to Apple podcasts. That's a big consumer shift. I wouldn't bet on it, but maybe, or do

Johnny Podcasts  34:14  
they take the route that Netflix is taking, and get podcast partners on Apple on there?

Justin Jackson  34:19  
Yeah, yeah. And there might be, there might also be more. For example, like, you know, they just released that movie f1 you know. Imagine you go to f1 and then after they say, well, here's three podcast recommendations about f1 you know. So there could be, you know, they might use it that way.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  34:44  
We love that you're listening to the podcast Super Friends. You can watch the show on YouTube, at Johnny podcasts and at sound off media.

Matt Cundill  34:54  
You have a podcast company, transistor.fm, you know the number. Dollars, and you also head up the the podcast Standards Project, and we have spent 35 minutes talking about video on Apple, where four hosts are going to be able to put video in here. Who's going to watch this is the first question we already see that a lot of people are just listening via the RSS feed, and the fact that we just dedicated 35 minutes to talking about this would leave a lot of people to believe that things are transitioning and it's going to video, and this is the way it's going. But the fact of the matter is, is that the RSS feed alive and well, audio better than ever. And I feel like we're spending a lot of time talking about video that. And listen, we're a little selfish here, because we all have clients who are asking about this stuff. So yes, we need to answer their questions, but you have the numbers, because you see what the downloads are, and a lot of people just listen to audio, and they're not going to deal with bother with us, I think

Justin Jackson  35:56  
audio, and by the way, to upload video to Spotify or Apple, you need to have an RSS feed. It the RSS feed is still the the source of truth. You're basically doing, you're adding video on top of those, those episodes, YouTube is still, I'm actually more. I would like YouTube to use the RSS feed as the source of truth. I wish they would move that direction as well. Yeah, and, and the current way of doing things is still going to drive lots of downloads. There's still going to be lots of audio only podcasts. I think if you look at like the listenership for audio podcasts. It's grown 10 15% a year for a decade. So what's my prediction for the next decade? Audio only listening is going to grow 10 to 15% a year for the next decade as well. It's going to keep growing. There's still going to be people that want the audio only experience that that will continue. And yeah, I don't think, depending on your show, you might not need to do video at all. I think a lot of people will choose to just do audio in their RSS feed and YouTube that will also be fine. RSS isn't going anywhere. I Some people are maybe a little bit more cynical about this, but I'm actually encouraged about Apple's dedication to RSS and support of RSS. They have been implementing a lot of these podcasting 2.0 features, like the podcast transcript tag, the first big profile to do that. So yeah, I think, I think RSS isn't going anywhere. And listen, like, as much as I say, like, you got to play the game on the field. That's absolutely true. Like, we if you go, if you go on Reddit, or you go on LinkedIn, there's so many audio files on there that you just everyone's like, no podcasting is only audio. Audio is only king. That's fine, but I'm saying like we can't ignore there is enormous demand for video content. I got into podcasting in 2005 watching This Week in tech Leo Laporte on my iPod. Video classic on the bus. Techzilla, totally. Rad show, dignation, like that's how I got that was my gateway drug into podcasting. It was video, not audio. And so this has been a part of podcasting, basically from the beginning, and to me, like as a creator, I just wanted to be an independent broadcaster. Like I wanted to be, you know, the hosts on 630 Chad in Edmonton, like, that's who I wanted to be on. Am radio.

Matt Cundill  38:52  
Why did you not want to be on the point three, the bear?

Justin Jackson  38:56  
I also wanted to be those guys too. But I also wanted to be David Letterman. And then in between, you had someone like Howard Stern, who was doing radio and also videotaping him doing radio. Right? Creators want to be independent broadcasters, and that's to me, the joy of podcasting has always been like, holy shit. Like, look at these dignation guys. Like, they basically doing a little TV broadcast studio on their own. Like, that's so cool. Or, oh wow. Like, look at Merlin Mann. He's like, a podcast guy, and he's got his own little radio broadcast studio on his own. That was the beauty. And I don't think we're losing any of that. In fact, I think it's just now we have more options than ever. You want to do an audio only show. You want to just be, you know, your favorite radio personality growing up. You can still do that. Yeah, you want to be David Letterman. You can still do that. And I think this, some of this, like, who's watching video podcasts? Like, it's like. Like that format does really well. It's that's the view, that's every talk show, that's Charlie Rose, that's like people, like watching two people at a table with microphones that that format has been around forever, and it would make sense that we would have an independent version of that in podcasts.

Matt Cundill  40:18  
And in this case, is six people, by the way, Justin and I did big contact at one point, and he did listen to me at 100.3 the bear in Edmonton, it's true, that

Justin Jackson  40:29  
was my drive into work. The bear. The bear Morning

Matt Cundill  40:33  
Show is great. Thanks a lot for listening. I really appreciate it. Catherine, you got a question?

Catherine O'Brien  40:39  
Yeah, I sure do. I think your comments about the play the game that's on the field, I really appreciate because I think that we, as you have mentioned, a lot of us, did get into podcasting because we loved audio so much. And I really don't want it to become a blind spot where we're not seeing where the industry is is, and where you're saying like the growth is going to happen is from the people who aren't necessarily the audio only people. So I always sort of toy with that, where we love audio, but that doesn't mean that the average consumer is in the same spot that we are. So I don't want our love of audio to become a blind spot. So I think you summing it up as like play the game that's on the field that that's really well said, since I am happy to be a apple naysayer, I'm wondering how much of this you you when you mentioned the sort of the the capital that Apple has with the cachet, let's say the popularity of Apple. I wonder how much all of this, all of this discussion about this, is them cashing in a little bit of that credit that they have with their big fans is we've already had, they've already had the capacity to do video. They've already, we've already got video on Spotify. YouTube is eating everybody's lunch, and so now we get to talk about the product that Apple developed, and how much is this really going to impact the average consumer. So I'd love to hear a little bit more you. When you said about the ads, both jag and I said, Oh, because that, I just made up this phrase follow the money. Let's see if that has anything to do with with what's going on. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about your thoughts there.

Justin Jackson  42:20  
I mean, I'm honestly confused why Apple is in the podcast business. Apple makes billions of dollars basically selling iPhones. That is their business. And for a long time, people assumed, oh, like Apple is just in this, you know, keeping Apple podcasts alive because of their history, because, you know, it's like a legacy project. But then they staffed up, you know, they went from, I don't know, three or five people to, I'm assuming 3050, people there. Now, nobody really knows, but a lot more people still small for Apple, and then they came up with this apple podcast subscriptions product, and you know now they're going to also do a nominal fee, which I don't even know what it is for ad delivery. To me, the money can't be that good for Apple. The entire podcast industry, this is another thing I say all the time, is the entire podcast industry is like, $2 billion or $3 billion or something like that, right? It's tiny.

Jon Gay  43:31  
It's gonna change. When they move podcast movements in New York, it's

Justin Jackson  43:35  
not gonna change. It's not gonna change. It's still tiny. And now we're going to benefit from the fact that we're going to be able to include the YouTube ecosystem in our numbers, and it's all going to get skewed. But I have said for a long time this podcast industry is so small, and whatever Apple is getting out of it, let's just say, let's be generous and say, globally, if you include everything private subscriptions and premium subscriptions and Patreon, which maybe, I think they're doing, like, $500 million a year in podcast, you know, revenue, let's say it's $5 billion globally. This is that's still tiny. That's not like, you know, before Elon Musk bought Twitter, they were a shitty company, and they were doing about Two $3 billion a year. So our entire industry does basically less revenue than a shitty social media company. We're a small industry, and so I'm always confused, like, where, why is Apple doing this? Like, we could follow the money, but like to them, it's like, I don't understand it. Can't the money can't be that good. So unless I'm wrong, and they're like, No, this is good. It's just, like, adds to our services revenue and it's substantial enough that we I think

Matt Cundill  44:53  
it's because they're number one. Wait, like there are people who are downloading and spending a lot of time on the show. Shows and so so long they are looking at the metrics of the amount of time, it's the number one place people listen and consume podcasts. Yes, you can find it on YouTube. Yes, there are podcasts on YouTube. We're only watching eight, nine minutes of it, but we're gonna listen to all 47 or in this case, an hour of this particular show, right? And I think as long as people have the phone in their hand and in their ears, they're gonna stick with podcasting, if that goes away, which is, I think a lot of the discussion we're having here now, I think then podcasting on Apple might go away.

Justin Jackson  45:37  
It's just weird that they decided to add and invest like premium podcast subscriptions, where you, you know, you use your existing Apple wallet and you and it's substantial for some creators, I know some creators are doing pretty good money on it, but it just always seems weird to me, like it's

Matt Cundill  45:53  
just a click away, though, right? Anything that's a click away where you can just click it twice and the money goes to somewhere that's going to be a good thing,

David Yas  46:00  
and it's so it's got to be a loss leader for phone sales, right? You're gonna say Catherine, yeah. I mean, if, if, if you make, if you own podcasts, it's got to be one of the top five things that people use their phone for, or at least top 10, right? Yeah, maybe. And if you create some that, you know that this device that only works on the Apple phone. And yeah, you know, then people are going to buy phones.

Justin Jackson  46:25  
My, my, my inclination. So if we were going to follow the money, it feels to me like the bigger play is Apple decided to go into the media business and invest a ton of money in Apple TV. And so now I think they feel like we are in the media business, and it's like we can't like this apple podcast project that had three people working there. We got to staff this up. This is a big media entity which could eventually and they've done some cross pollination, right? Like the news app has audio experiences in it the they they have podcasts for Big Apple TV properties, so they're starting to do some cross pollination. Maybe that's the bigger play is just like we are also a media company, and we want to own, yeah, we want to own a big piece of that pie. And if podcast is a piece of that pie, you know, we're gonna have music and we're gonna have audio podcasts, we're gonna video podcasts, and that naturally leads into TV. Maybe that's the play, yeah, I'm not sure.

Catherine O'Brien  47:37  
Well, I'm really glad you brought up Apple TV, because I was wondering if there's a parallel between Apple TV and what they're doing now with the HLS, because the they don't have to make money with Apple TV. They can make these sort of boutique shows, like severance, all these things that are very popular with their target audience, for the phones, as you mentioned. So it's almost like I'm reminded of when we first the podcast. Super Friends first heard the phrase minutes with brand. And I wonder if this this idea of like, we love our you know, the people who love their iPhones. I love my iPhone. This is where I get my TV. This is where I get severance. This is where I get my podcast. Where else would I get if I'm I'm spending minutes with brand when I'm listening to that 45 minute

Justin Jackson  48:23  
podcast, yeah, and maybe it's more lock in and other things I def, I would be surprised if Apple TV isn't eventually a part of the of the the overall package, yeah, yeah. There just seems to be so much opportunity there and and again. Apple TV is also worried about YouTube. It's like, YouTube people keep and Apple must be able to track this, right? Like, people keep choosing the YouTube icon instead of the Apple TV, plus, sure they're, like,

Speaker 2  48:58  
moving it over. Yeah, I

Jon Gay  49:01  
know we're almost out of time. I want to kind of throw a wild card in here, if you don't mind. Justin so I know you're with transistor. I'm a I've been with simple cast for a long time, and so I am excited that simple cast is one of the platforms that's involved with this transition out of the gate, and I'm already all set to like about Apple and everything. I log into my simple cast professional dashboard yesterday, and I get a pop up and I'm going to read it so I get it right. Yeah, now, now live video podcast with YouTube publishing. This is your point about RSS and YouTube earlier. Expand your podcast beyond audio to meet audiences wherever they are and unlock new discovery paths with simple cast native YouTube integration. You can now upload an episode once and manage both audio and video in one place, publish seamlessly to podcast apps and YouTube without switching tools and track your YouTube and audio performance side by side in a single dashboard. No more jumping multiple tools, stitching together reports, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they kind of threw that wild card at me when I was all trying to figure out this apple thing, and now my. Heads really spinning.

Justin Jackson  50:02  
I mean, this is what I've built, a prototype that does exactly this. Because this is my personal workflow for all my shows. How many people are recording in Riverside? Yep, and they get, they have the video and they have the audio. This is the workflow I want, I want to upload one video file. I want it to go to YouTube and maybe also publish to Spotify, and then I want it to automatically publish on my RSS feed and go up all that way. So I think again, this is gonna be one of Apple's challenges. Is that the bigger market, if you're gonna build a feature, the bigger feature to go after is upload a video file. We also we then redistribute it to YouTube, we consume their analytics API, and then you get everything in one dashboard that is that's going to hit 80, 90% of podcast creators who are mostly just people doing a show for fun or a hobby, but yeah, and now we're gonna be adding other things we're gonna be like. So now imagine the next time you log into Simplecast, it says, Well, now you can publish to Spotify, but now you can't get your analytics the same way. We got to consume those analytics, and they're on a 24 hour delay, and sorry about that. And then, and then you're gonna get another pop up that says, hey, if you pay us more money, you can also go distribute to Apple video. HLS, what do you want to do here? And so, yeah, our goal on the platform side and at transistor is to make this as easy as possible, and to offer people the basically to get to give them the main thing that they want, what's, I'm

Jon Gay  51:45  
waving my white flag at this point like it's, I'm overwhelmed at this point as a creator and a producer,

Justin Jackson  51:51  
I think, I think you can give folks a user experience that will be very simple, in the same way that it's actually quite complicated the way podcasting set up right now. It's like, what do you mean? Like, I upload a file and then I submit my RSS feed to all these different platforms. That's weird. And then now, every time I publish an audio file, they just pick it up. That's kind of weird. Like, how does that work? No other platform works like that, right? It's very decentralized. So we've been able to communicate to, you know, there's millions now of podcast creators out there who have at least a basic understanding that I upload an audio file and somehow it gets distributed to all these platforms, and we've been able to hide a lot of that complexity. So my hope is that we'll be able to continue to do that. Now it's not going to the purists won't like it because it, yeah, it's messy. It's now we've got YouTube and we got spot. It's so messy, but that's just we again. We don't make the waves, we ride them. That's kind of how it is. And my goal is to just continue to give a voice to RSS and the open ecosystem. And says, Yeah, upload your stuff to YouTube. That's fine, but check this out. Like this is really cool. What we've got here this decentralized system of you owning your content, distributing your content. Spotify pisses you off. You can pull your show off Spotify, and it keeps going everywhere else. That's pretty cool, right? And I'm still very bullish on RSS, the open ecosystem. I think, I think, yeah, I think it's just gonna get better and better. And now that Apple's offering HLS way more people are going to be producing these HLS manifests, putting it in the alternate enclosure, tag in their RSS feed. And all of a sudden, all these other apps, like Pocket Casts is planning on doing this. They're going to start offering HLS video as well. So there's some cool stuff happening. We finally have an innovation in open podcasting, in that there's these HLS manifest that we can use in the alternate enclosure tag that I think consumers and creators, most of them actually care about, as opposed to some of these sometimes esoteric RSS podcasting 2.0 features that really maybe five 10% of people care about, aren't

Matt Cundill  54:22  
you kind of in charge of that, because you head up the podcast Standards Project and podcast 2.0 and so,

Justin Jackson  54:31  
yeah, this is why I'm I want to play the game on the field. I don't want to be doing esoteric, releasing esoteric podcasting 2.0 features that nobody cares about. We're just going to give people in more fields to fill out when they create an episode, it that makes life harder for creators than easier, so that, you know, I think the podcasting 2.0 project, they're separate from us. They're like out there the Wild West. They're innovating. They're going like crazy. Easy. They're running with scissors. I love it. And then our job at the podcasting standards project is to say, what can we reasonably implement in a coordinated way across hosting platforms and listening platforms, and actually get everybody to align on a few things that actually matter? And so there's going to be a lot more debate there. Right podcast transcript tag, easy one, let's do it. But I've been like gaming for something that creators really care about and that listeners really care about. Like, what do they really care about? Well, if you're on Pocket Casts, maybe you want to watch video. Maybe that's what you want. So if that's true, and by the way, like any, any we, we did a talk at Podcast Movement, all of our other stuff, people are like, Yeah, whatever. The HLS video talk packed, you know, it filled the room. So you can see what kind of pops off and what people care about. And I just, I'm not saying we can't do other stuff. I just want to release more stuff that people care about. I don't want to be doing like these nerdy little

Matt Cundill  56:13  
side questions, do people care about the live tag?

Justin Jackson  56:17  
I think they will. I think this is I think HLS will be a a gateway drug into

Matt Cundill  56:25  
the ln. HLS is for live, by the way, right.

Justin Jackson  56:28  
That's right, that's right. It was originally designed for live. So I think that is the next natural.

Matt Cundill  56:35  
Okay, so what about location? So we got jaggin Detroit podcasts, and we got the pod 617, podcast, we got some locations here, although jag is rebranded,

Jon Gay  56:48  
thank you, which is a great time for me to make my exit. I have a client call, but Justin, thank you. Great to meet you. Yeah.

Justin Jackson  56:54  
Thank you. Thanks, jag. So location. This is, you know, podcast Standards Project is a cooperative group, and I'm less excited about location. I'm not opposed to it. We've but we have people kind of moving it forward. We have a process for like, you know how we were trying to adopt new features. My worry about location is it's another thing for creators to fill out. And so the other day, we have this randomize button in transistor on the admin side where I can just, like, randomly look at 10 different shows on transistor. And I just scrolled through, like, there's all these cool features that I'm so excited about, like, podcast transcripts, like, everybody should have one, and the person tag that allows you to add guest and host credits. Like, that's so cool, and we gave it a really prominent spot in our UI. 10% maybe of people have implemented those features. And so again, maybe we can do a better job at it. But most creators are doing this for fun, and you guys all know what that's like to finish recording a show, and then you spend a couple hours editing it, and then you're just like, I just want to get this thing out in the world. And then it's like, oh, wait, you got to give us location. Oh, wait, you got to give us a episode cover art, oh, wait, you got to assign people. Oh, wait, you got to upload a transcript. And I think most people are just like, you know, title, upload mp three, description, if you're lucky, and then click publish, right? That's, that's kind of the power, the power law curve, or whatever, or the distribution curve. So I'm not saying we can't do things like location. And certainly there's, I have lots of peers on the podcast standards project that really want it to happen. I'm just pushing back more about like, Okay, if we do this thing, there has to be a user experience that makes sense. And again, if we're just doing this to please ourselves and our, you know, nerdy curiosity or whatever, that's not enough. Like we need to actually, this has to provide value. The creators are like, hell yeah, I'm going to add location or and then consumers are like, hell yeah, I'm going to filter by location. But anyone who's ever built a product knows, you know, everyone's got good intentions, until they get out into the boxing ring, and then you find out what people actually, you know, are going to use. And so I just don't want to be, I want to be honest about all that, and that's going to apply to this apple HLS thing too, like Apple's making this bet. But you remember when Facebook added podcasts

Matt Cundill  59:42  
that was about eight months it lasted. It lasted

Justin Jackson  59:46  
eight months, and then it's got so, you know, this could this could

Matt Cundill  59:49  
be, everyone's a contender. You get punched in the mouth. Mike Dyson,

Justin Jackson  59:53  
that's Mike Tyson. That's right. Yeah. So I hopefully that answers the question. By the way, I do want to say, like. Lots of people on podcast Standards Project, want the location tag. So it's not like, I don't get to decide that. That's a decision we're making together.

Matt Cundill  1:00:06  
I mean, listen, this is the this is, by the way, you you have a great newsletter, and most of it is a lot about tech. And you talked about things like Facebook and other startups and stuff like that. But you know, when you get into this particular discussion, it's like, all the tech people want to do, hey, let's put in a location tag, and nobody is asking for it. It's quite possible nobody is asking for this, right?

Justin Jackson  1:00:28  
This is, this is what I mean. And like, this is why I say, like, talk to your Uber drivers, or talk to people at the on the chair lift when you're skiing, or talk to the people in your book club. Like, just say, Hey, can you like, show me how you like, choose a podcast to listen to? And they'll be like, open up their phone, and then there's just, like, all these recommended podcasts in Spotify. And they're like, I usually just choose one of these. It's like, okay, well, that's how they're making their decision. And you might say, well, wouldn't it be great if you could, like, go on a you're in Spain and you wanted to go on a walking tour, and you could, like, filter your podcasts by podcasts in Spain, and like, if they've never thought about that, then the idea is dead in the water. You need people actively on their own, exhibiting behavior. That's what wins. And you can, you can come up with whatever you want, but there, there has to be evidence of exhibited behavior. How do real people behave? So when I say, I get home, I turn on the TV, and I go to the YouTube app, and I see all of you, your faces light up and going, Yeah, we kind of do that too. That, to me, is exhibited behavior. We know there's a lot of people doing that, but some of these other things, like you got to be able to prove that people are doing them. There's there's actual exhibited behavior. Good Intentions isn't going to cut it.

Matt Cundill  1:01:53  
Last questions for Justin from anyone.

Johnny Podcasts  1:01:58  
Quick thought, does Spotify own megaphone get barred from this good

Matt Cundill  1:02:04  
question? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, this is

Justin Jackson  1:02:07  
so I mean, I don't even know how they would deal with that, that that is, and part of me kind of loves it, because this tension in the podcast industry is always what's protected us. So it's like Spotify comes in lot of money, big splash. You know, they, again, they spent, like, billions of dollars on an industry that had never made a billion dollars. But there's tension. Apple had, whatever it is, 3040, 50% of the market. And then Spotify grab theirs, but they can't. Nobody can own it, right? And then YouTube comes in and they've got, but there's this natural everybody's got their corner of the pie. So yeah, my guess is probably not and, and by the way, Spotify is video experiment has not been smash hit either. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Matt Cundill  1:03:04  
That's interesting. So let's say I'm just going to pose this to you that Johnny hypothetically has podcasts on megaphone, just guessing, Justin completely Justin cuts a deal with Apple, because you're already prepared, and you've been preparing for years for HLS and technology, and now all of a sudden there's an exodus from a place like megaphone to transistor for this. Yeah, so, I mean, for years, like podcast, for the last five years, podcast hosts have been rather ubiquitous. It doesn't really matter. We're just gonna put the thing up and we like about two or three features. This is a serious feature, and now Johnny's got to make a decision.

Justin Jackson  1:03:49  
Yeah, yeah.

Johnny Podcasts  1:03:50  
Decisions made. If because the people that I work for they want, they're gonna want their video on Apple. It's gonna be a no brainer.

Catherine O'Brien  1:03:58  
And it's not new for your clients, too. That's the other thing, it's, you're already have found locations for them to do the video.

Justin Jackson  1:04:05  
Yeah, yeah, that there could be, there could be an exodus there too. Yeah, and yeah, there's, there's lots of it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out. I'm still, like, kind of waiting to see how much demand is there really for HLS video again, once people see like, this is probably gonna cost you more money. You know, maybe they don't get the results. Maybe they people start posting videos on Apple, and they're like, no one's watching these. Like, why are we doing this? So that could happen? We don't know yet. This so early. What we know is there's lots of people watching video podcasts on YouTube. That's what we know. And we know Spotify has some people are doing well with Spotify videos. Some people aren't. It's kind of a mixed bag. We'll see what happens with Apple and if, if the demand is there from the audience. Then, yeah, I think you might see people moving away from megaphone.

Matt Cundill  1:05:05  
Are there any questions? David and Catherine, do you have anything left? All right, great. This is great. Justin, you've been so kind with your time today and coming on the show, and you're, you're high in demand. I saw you yesterday with Katie lore on on her on her podcast? Yeah, we did a little pod, yeah, pod the North yesterday. By the way, if you want to, you should subscribe to that newsletter. You don't have to be Canadian for it. We'll put in the show notes of this episode. And transistor.fm is a great place to host your podcast. And I know you're all about the future. And thank you very much for taking the time at pod summit YYC to explain HLS. Justin spent 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, trying to explain HLS to me. Got me excited when Apple made the announcement, I said, we've got to have Justin on this particular episode to to talk about this. So thank you very much, Justin.

Justin Jackson  1:05:56  
Oh, this is a this is a delight. Having me back anytime I like this group of friends.

Matt Cundill  1:06:00  
We're super friends. You're super friends. All right, yeah, it's a good group, good so we'll just, we'll spin around here. We'll go clockwise again. Say goodbye.

Johnny Podcasts  1:06:12  
Thank you again, Justin, we really appreciate it. This was fantastic. We appreciate you taking the time everyone. Go check out transistor.fm, and subscribe to our show, please.

Catherine O'Brien  1:06:23  
What Johnny said? Plus, thanks everybody for being here and Catherine Oh O'Brien in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, signing off.

David Yas  1:06:31  
DAVID YAZ in Boston, pod 617, dot com, smiling for that video camera.

Matt Cundill  1:06:38  
Any last words? Justin,

Justin Jackson  1:06:40  
no again. Thanks for having me. This was really fun. Have me back anytime, and if anyone out there wants to talk more about this, I'm justin@transistor.fm you're free to email me All

Matt Cundill  1:06:52  
right, and that's gonna be the show notes. Thanks a lot for listening and watching this episode of the podcast. Super Friends.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:06:58  
Thanks for listening, For show notes, transcripts and the video version of this episode, check out the podcast. Super Friends at soundoff, dot Network.