Mary Chan: Organized Sound For Your Show

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Sound Off podcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:09  
Mary Chan is the owner of Organized Sound, and she and I both know that a lot of podcasts need work to sound better. Mary's got a long history of working in radio, primarily on the production side, she knows what sound works and what sound won't work when it comes to your radio show or podcast. She's a voice coach and can help you land on that right sound for your show. You got a bad mic? She's gonna tell you. Thin sound? She'll help you with that. And if you're too long-winded, she'll make edit suggestions for you. I met her at Pod Summit in Calgary last year, where she was helping us find our voice in a one-hour session that not enough podcasters really get to experience before they get behind the microphone and start babbling away. At the very least, give this episode a listen to the end before you start your journey to becoming the next Joe Rogan. And now, Mary Chan joins me from Victoria. Why did you want to get into broadcasting?

Mary Chan  1:09  
I was in high school, and back in graduated high school in 1998. Just to be clear, back then we had career prep, so grade 1011, I think, and you just filled a whole bunch of questionnaires. And I didn't want anything to do with money. I didn't want to be an accountant. I didn't want to be a doctor. And so when I filled out this questionnaire, I was like, I'm just gonna have fun and do whatever, and I don't care. And it turned out radio was in the top three things that I could do as a career, and at this point, I loved listening to radio. Like I would be in class with my little Walkman and having the earbud through the sleeve of my shirt and my long hair, and I would just listen to the radio instead of paying attention to class. And so when the career prep questionnaire said I could be working in radio, mouth dropped. Right, everything was like, you mean this fun thing can be a job? Looked it up. Growing up in Vancouver, found out I can go to BCIT in Burnaby, and I was like, done. I'm gonna apply and hope for the best. And look at that! It worked out.

Matt Cundill  2:22  
What was the first radio station you walked into and saw like Master Control?

Mary Chan  2:26  
Oh, I I loved listening to the Fox in Vancouver. Loved it so much, and I think that was the most memorable one that is that comes to mind because I was with Jeff O'Neill. I was this little student, right, like 1920-year-old, and just in awe. And I had a friend with me, and I didn't say anything. I was just like staring at him doing the show, and I was like, "Wow!" And I remember he was like, "You're not saying anything. If you don't want to say anything, why do you want to be on the radio?" And then I was like, "Wait a minute! I actually, I love the radio, but do I have to be on air? Was when I realized that there's other things about radio that it's not just about being on air.

Matt Cundill  3:10  
Yeah, I think Jeff got that show in 9596. I think is when he started. So he's like 30 plus years now.

Mary Chan  3:17  
Yeah, in that

Matt Cundill  3:18  
spot on that legendary station, and I think the '90s were just one of the best times for C Fox.

Mary Chan  3:24  
Yeah, exactly. I loved every minute of it because I was skipping school, listening to the Fox all the time.

Matt Cundill  3:31  
So you decide you're not going to necessarily be the person on the air. So what other part of the radio station did you find and get comfortable in?

Mary Chan  3:40  
Well, part of BCIT was learning about everything, right? And I remember we had our second-year urine project that we had to do. That you know, you you started it at the beginning of the year, and by the end of the year, you were supposed to have this documentary, audio documentary piece. And I remember I just kept it was me and two other dudes, and I just kept saying no, no, no. I'll edit that. No, no, no. I'll put that in. And I just stole the computer from them to do all the editing. And then I was like, wait, this might be it. This is my thing.

Matt Cundill  4:11  
In that era, too, it was really the end of reel-to-reel tape and you know splicing and stuff. Did you did you get to do some of that, or was it all in computer?

Mary Chan  4:20  
We did, yeah. We learned on like we had pots as well. We had we had to learn to splice. So I had my razor blade, I had my tape and everything, but it was just like the dawn of computer editing in radio school, and we I don't remember what they were called, but it was this really thick disc that you saved zip drives. That was it. We had to save our work onto zip drives, and you only were allowed like one audio session because your zip drives were so small.

Matt Cundill  4:54  
And so you were at the Fox, but when did you get a full time job? What was the first full time job for you?

Mary Chan  5:00  
Duncan, B.C., just north of Victoria, small little independently owned husband and wife team station, and I was 10 to two mid days, and then production after that until six, and I was like, cares about 10 to two. I want to do production, but of course I was like, no, no, no, I'll do on air. I'll be fine, and and I learned to like love my voice from being on air and having to do voice tracks too. I voice track the evening shift. I voice track some weekend stuff, and so it it really was like learn everything in that first full time gig there, and it was great.

Matt Cundill  5:36  
Were you coached, or did you coach yourself, or was it a combination of both?

Mary Chan  5:40  
I pretty much had to coach myself. It was a very small station, and so it was really about okay, what did I learn in school? Why do I not like the sound of my voice? Why do I sound static and not like myself? And then when were those moments when I would listen back and go, oh, that was me oh my gosh I I said something and I laughed at my own joke oh my gosh like that was like the pivotal moment when I realized that I sounded like a real human being on the radio and so it's it really was about just listening back to yourself constantly and being instead of like a judge judgment and being critiquy. It was really just about okay. How do I sound more like myself and like a human being? And when those moments happen, what was happening to me? What was I thinking? What was going on in my mind?

Matt Cundill  6:33  
So one of the mistakes I used to make was I used to listen to myself in my headphones, and I think I did a little bit better when I would remove one earphone just to get away from from that particular habit. Is that something? Is that something a lot of beginners do?

Mary Chan  6:50  
It's not necessarily a detriment because being in radio, you're also taught like making sure that whatever is happening in the room, your mic is going to pick it up. So if you hear it in your cans, then it's going on the air, right? So like you do need to hear yourself because there are people who are like pen clickers that don't realize that they are clicking their pens when they're talking and stuff. So you need to be able to hear what's going into the mic, and I get that. But at the same time, listen to yourself outside of the environment that you recorded it in. So, especially in podcasting now, you know you can take the device with you. Don't use your earbuds. Maybe listen to it on the speakers on your phone. Listen to it on another device that maybe you've got connected to your TV or whatever these days, right? Listen to it in a different scenario so that you can really hear what you sound like and how other listeners will be hearing you because not everybody will be having these lovely broadcast headphones that we all have on from being in radio.

Matt Cundill  7:58  
You went on to Victoria after Duncan,

Mary Chan  8:01  
yeah,

Matt Cundill  8:02  
and you get to work at a pretty cool station doing some pretty cool things.

Mary Chan  8:05  
Yeah, I was at the Rogers stations at Ocean 98 five and 103 one Jack FM and all the variations of that station there for about 15 years.

Matt Cundill  8:17  
I think everybody in Western Canada wants to wind up in Victoria, but it's it's for the weather and a great radio.

Mary Chan  8:23  
Definitely the weather. I gotta say, I did luck out because like the whole goal of mine, being born and raised in Vancouver, was like, okay, I'm gonna go small market, small market, medium market, make my way back to Vancouver. I'm gonna produce in Vancouver. I did intern and a little bit of stuff at Mountain FM in Squamish, first full time gig in Duncan, then I went to Victoria, and then I was like, "This is the best city on earth." I'm never moving, and I never did. So yeah, I kind of lucked out with that.

Matt Cundill  8:54  
And and how did you know that you would be coaching and teaching what you teach today to podcasters like things like mic technique and listening to yourself back and self checking and all this stuff as you're doing your production in Victoria. What are some of the hints that oh people really need to be coached at this?

Mary Chan  9:13  
Was actually listening to a the announcers reading their scripts because I was a commercial producer when I was in Victoria, so just having them come in and I think, well, you're an announcer, you're the morning show host, you should be able to know how to read a script. No, they don't because they're so honed in on being live and be having that personality. But when you have to read a script, that is a totally different brain pattern and voice technique that you use that you need to use, and so some of them clam up, or they write out say, "I don't want to voice scripts. Can you not give me any more scripts to do? I just want to focus on my morning show." And and I'm like, "No, we're a small station. I want variety of voices on the radio station for all the commercials. I don't want to just have the same guy voice it all the time.". And so, I kind of force them to do it, and with that, I realize I have to teach them. And it was also the same thing when the salespeople would force their clients to come in. I remember having this woman; she was like a financial person, and I sit down. I'm like, "Oh, here's your script. Walk her into the voice booth, and she's like, "What am I doing? I was just told to come here. I don't. I didn't know I had to voice this." And the sales guy said I should be the voice of my business, but I don't know what that means. And I was like, "Whoa, okay, let's step back. Let's go back into the studio. Let's sit you down, and let's get the lay of the land and practice a little bit. So I spent a lot of time with her, and then also from there, I was like, "Okay, coaching is a thing when you're a producer for commercials."

Matt Cundill  10:49  
What sales guy thought that would be a good idea?

Mary Chan  10:53  
I mean, I get it, but come on, like, give them a little bit of something to start with.

Matt Cundill  11:00  
So shout out to Rob Vavrick and also to Richard Strobent, who was on this show a few weeks ago. For you know, when I was 24, I think I mean I had read spots before in Montreal and in Nova Scotia, and had been egged along as it were into a particular sound. But I do remember I was somebody wanted to try me out for a you know provincial wide TV ad, and I went in with my voice, but it was announcery, and wasn't really you know in the conversational type, and they were really looking for an actor at that point, and I just yeah I was not going to be cast in that spot, as it were. So so how do you take these announcers and get them to do the complete opposite? Because they're told to be themselves when they're on the air, and now we want you to play a role. So what are some of the tips to get people out of being announcery and into a different role?

Mary Chan  11:56  
We had a lot of that in terms of challenging the announcers because when the writers would write the scripts, they would write some that are like conversational, and the conversational ones were always the toughest to get the announcers to be, you know, natural, and so it was always trying to figure out. Okay, I know the announcer well enough now. Maybe we've worked together for a long time, and so what are some of the personal things that I can pull from their life to say, "Hey, this is the situation you're in. Let's emulate that feeling in your voice." So one of them was it was for like a baby boutique or something, and I needed them to just be like, "Oh, this baby clothes. Oh, so cute, or something like that. But she didn't have kids, and so she's like, "I don't. I'm not the right person for this." But as you know, you know, she was the live body in the building, so she had to voice the commercial. And I was like, "Okay, I know you got dogs, though. You love your dogs, don't you?" She's like, oh, my dogs are the best. Oh, and she kept talking about her dogs. I'm like, okay, just think about your dogs when you're voicing this. This is about your dogs. It's not about some random baby. It's your dogs. So go, and that's when she was like, oh, this is how this works. It's not just about the words on the page. It's beyond that. It's the feelings that you're going to convey. So, what relates to your life that can convey those feelings?

Matt Cundill  13:28  
So, behind you, you've got some advice which says, "Speak with spirit." That is a sign that is sitting up on your speaker in back of your head. One of the things that we put into the studio to you know when we were reading commercials, simple things like like smile, yeah, just really encouraging things to really you know punch it up and get people you know into an excited mode. And I've always been surprised that when I'm doing a spot in a very excited mode, it comes out the way it should. But when I'm reading it, I'm like, why am I waving my hands like an idiot, and why do I feel like I'm like screaming from the top of a mountain?

Mary Chan  14:07  
Because, well, when you're voice acting, you need to bring your body into it. You have to use your hands. You have to be able to really smile when you need to. But you also need to know that smile sign isn't always the best help because sometimes you don't want to smile when you're reading a script because it's very serious. It is a different tone, and so with my sign, the speak with spirit, the spirit really inhabits your emotion, your energy, whatever that emotion needs for that script, so smile. Yes, I feel like it's a very foundational, fundamental thing. But I've also worked with podcasters who like over smile because they're like, "Okay, then I will read this. I will read this bio, or I will read my intro, and I've got a big smile on my face, and I'm like.". Oh yeah, that's put on. That's fake. I want you to be you. So how do we float those two things together? Where you're still smiling, but you're not overdoing it, right?

Matt Cundill  15:10  
So I'm not surprised you have the business that you have. I mean, radio is pretty easy. We have microphones. We all know how to use the microphones, and then we just got to coach that. Now comes podcasting, and one of the biggest complaints about podcasting for many listeners is they don't sound very good, and that's for a number of reasons. But I think the number one culprit is how people use the microphone and how they speak into it. That's just the start of the conversation. But keeping people on the microphone, I find, especially in this day and age of video, where everybody wants to come off mic and look, look at me. Oh, they're now they're

Mary Chan  15:48  
sitting on a couch and they're relaxed. They're leaning back.

Matt Cundill  15:51  
Yeah,

Mary Chan  15:52  
and you're like, no, the microphone needs to be. And and the other thing too that I think most people don't realize, different microphones do different things, right? They pick up certain noises. They have a different pickup pattern. They might speak. You might have to speak on it from the side versus the tip of the mic. Like there's all these different things, and people don't know. They see a Blue Yeti that is the most marketed mic for podcasting for a long time, and people still buy it, but they don't know how to use it because then they see someone like you who who has

Matt Cundill  16:27  
the that's a that's a sure SMB seven

Mary Chan  16:29  
the iconic S yes exactly it's the iconic radio microphone but it's an end address versus the Blue Yeti which is a side address and so people don't read the instructions they just plug it in and start talking when there's more to it than that. The

Matt Cundill  16:45  
blue Yeti. That's a that's a condenser mic, isn't it?

Mary Chan  16:48  
Correct. Yes.

Matt Cundill  16:49  
Yeah. So that's going to pick up all sorts of noise in the room. Oh

Mary Chan  16:52  
yeah, yeah. So

Matt Cundill  16:53  
if you have a blue Yeti, I feel very safe in telling you throw that in the garbage right away, please, and start

Mary Chan  17:01  
over. I mean yes, but also again, it's how do you use that microphone? All right, podcasting, minimal budget, everybody goes for that. All right, so how do we use it to the best of its ability and what it can do for you? Right, so making sure that you're using its side address. There's different buttons for the pickup patterns. Making sure that you're not using the wrong pickup pattern for the room and situation that you're using it for, and then also your room. Okay, do you have a lot of windows? Do you have some blinds or curtains? Can you close and things like that? So there are a few things you can do, but the main thing is usually you just need to get closer to the microphone, like you're going to kiss the darn thing.

Matt Cundill  17:47  
I have three recommendations that I'm going to put in the show notes that I recommend for for podcast users and aficionados. They're all dynamic mics. I think condenser mics is just sort of a highway to hell for anybody starting a podcast. It really is. You know, dogs, leaf blowers, air airplanes, construction, and you know, having tried myself with a condenser mic in the space that I'm in right now, it's very difficult. You really do have to have a very soundproof room, be in a padded cell, or surrounded by horse blankets of some sort, in order to really get that that great sound.

Mary Chan  18:26  
Yeah, because that's what a condenser mic is really created for. It is for that soundproof room. Yes, it gets a huge frequency range. It's very crisp, but that is because it's meant for a soundproof room, and you know, really, if you want that broadcast sound, you really do want to go for something like a dynamic mic, right? Yeah.

Matt Cundill  18:48  
Here, here's another question that is very, very obvious, but it needs to be answered, and that's why do podcasters need headphones

Mary Chan  18:58  
for so many reasons. I mean, one we had talked about that like the pen clicking, right? I've had people who have keys in their pocket; they're jingling their coins. Do people still have coins? Still happens, and so that's one of the things. Two, it's can you hear yourself? Like we were saying, if you're going to back up and relax over here, can you still hear yourself in the microphone? But really, the main thing that a lot of podcasters need to know is because most of the interview-style shows are going to be online these days. That's typically how it happens, right? We are online. We're not in the same room together, you and I, right now. We're

Matt Cundill  19:37  
not even in the same time zone.

Mary Chan  19:38  
I know. So exactly, when you're online, what happens is if you do not have headphones on and you do not use what most of these online recording platforms have called like echo cancelation or noise reduction algorithms or anything like that, if you don't turn. Those on, then you're going to have a bad feedback loop because your laptop has a microphone, and your speakers from your laptop is blasting out the sound. So the sound coming out from your laptop gets recorded back into your laptop, and you create this whole cycle, and it's going to be terrible. You will sound like you are an entire in a room duplicated by yourself, and it's going to be horrendous. You can't fix it, and so if you don't have headphones and you turn on the echo cancelation or noise reduction algorithm setting, that actually makes your voice sound worse because at this point, it's trying to cancel out anything that it automatically thinks is not your voice. Which sometimes I've had with clients, if you're a soft speaker, and you just, or maybe you're backing away from the mic a little bit, it'll think your voice is noise and cancel it out. Or the other thing is, if you have a host who likes to go, yeah, oh, uh huh, it's gonna, and that voice is louder than the guest. It's gonna cancel out the guest's voice, so you get that warble or robotic or cut off sound. So, headphones are really, really key in isolating voices and sound recording.

Matt Cundill  21:24  
Yeah, echo cancelation means you still have echo. The loop is just cut off, and

Mary Chan  21:29  
yeah, if

Matt Cundill  21:29  
two people talk at once, the software needs to decide between who's really talking, and for about a half second, the two of you sound like a duck.

Mary Chan  21:42  
It will always default to the louder voice, and so usually I find when the guest is the louder voice, especially when the guest has a proper microphone and stuff. And the I mean, when the host has a proper microphone, it picks up the voice better. And when a guest doesn't, then it just cancels out the guest voice. But you want the guest here because you want to hear what they have to say. So it's kind of defeating the purpose.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  22:07  
Sound design of the Sound Off podcast is inspired by Mega Tracks, the sound of entertainment, providing music and sound effects for radio, podcasts, and media professionals. Mega Tracks is your one-stop shop for library and custom tracks. Start your music search now at megatracks.com. The Sounding Off newsletter delivered free to your inbox, featuring Matt's media hacks, hot takes, and retakes. Sign up now at SoundingOff.news.

Matt Cundill  22:40  
By the way, if Taylor Swift can wear headphones, everybody else can wear

Mary Chan  22:45  
headphones when it

Matt Cundill  22:46  
comes to a podcast.

Mary Chan  22:47  
That's a good one because I've heard like, oh yeah, it's kind of annoying, or oh, I've done my hair up, or I have earrings on, or they get really hot in my ears, or all of these things. I mean, you don't have to have these big headphones. You could also do earbuds. You could not AirPods because that is a totally another can of worms with Bluetooth and making sure that you're you've got them powered, charged enough, and things like that. So my preferential is like anything that is wired headphones, use them. It doesn't have to be fancy at

Matt Cundill  23:24  
all. And I stress wired, so you know, not AirPods. Yes.

Mary Chan  23:27  
The other thing about AirPods that is terrible. Okay, so a yes, if you've forgotten to charge them or they lose charge, right? Then they don't connect anymore, so that disappears. The other thing is that AirPods are constantly scanning for a connection, so a lot of times, if it's not connected to your laptop and your phone is nearby, it's going to automatically connect to your phone. So then you lose that online connection with who you're speaking to on your laptop, right? So AirPods, and the other thing too is an AirPod is close to your ear. The microphone is close to your ear. Your mouth is not anywhere close to that microphone. So the sound of your voice isn't going to be that great either. That full, rich sound that ideally you want on a podcast.

Matt Cundill  24:16  
What do we tell people, and what do you tell your clients who don't like the sound of their own voice and are uncomfortable with it, and you know become shy and very self conscious of it.

Mary Chan  24:27  
It really is about the practice, especially if you want to host your own show. You know what was the driving force for you wanting to do that? Because in this medium, it's going to be all about your voice. And if the same thing, if you want to just be a guest on other people's shows, why do that? What is your driving factor that you want to be sharing your message through the speaking medium? So start there is really the way to figure out how to start accepting your voice, and then to loving your voice. And a lot of the times, I. Also say is to start thinking about why you feel about the your voice at this moment. Like Matt, for you, right? Like describe your voice right now with three feelings. How do you feel about your voice?

Matt Cundill  25:20  
Soft, sultry. I'd like to say silky. It is not soft. I'll go with soft. I will go with sultry. I think it's well spoken.

Mary Chan  25:31  
And I think that's the other thing too: is when people go through this exercise, it's like how do you actually feel about your voice versus your end goal, what you would like it to sound like, because those are two very different things. And especially at a starting point on where you are, I remember, you know, when I started out again back at BCID, you know, we didn't have our phones with us all the time. We had to do air checks with cassette tapes, and I sat in with my instructor for the first time, listened back to my voice, and I was like, "Oh my God, I sound like this! I'm so high pitched. I sound like I'm 12. This is awesome! I can't be on the radio. There's no way I can do this." And then it's about okay, why do I sound that way? Is there something about my voice that I would like to shift? Because it's not about changing your voice. Your voice is who you are. It's about figuring out what were those moments in your life that made you speak that way. So for me, it was because again, we're online. You can't tell, but I'm like five foot one. I'm short, and when I was a kid, I was always the shortest kid in the class. Everyone thought I was so cute, and they want to pick me up. And so I felt like I was portraying that through my voice. So I'm cute. I'm a small person, so I tend to speak up like this all the time, and because I'm high pitched, and so it's knowing what happened to you in the past that affects your voice today, so that you can shift out of that and really be who you are and have your heart voice present when you're behind the microphone.

Matt Cundill  27:18  
Tell me about warming up, because my first take at anything sucks. It's kind of like the first pancake. You gotta throw it out.

Mary Chan  27:24  
Yes. The

Matt Cundill  27:25  
second take is generally okay, and the third take is the one that I'll generally run with it. And this is if I'm just recording a, you know, a commercial, a you know, 32nd spot, something like that. What are some ideal warm ups just before you start a podcast, before you get to interviewing,

Mary Chan  27:44  
yeah, it really first of all depends on how much time you have. So if you're one of those people who are like, "I'm so busy. Oh my gosh, I have an interview soon in a few minutes. I just need you to do one quick thing." The one quick thing that I always recommend people to do is just breathe, take a breath, calm your body down because you're just hyper vigilant. Okay, I got to get to the meet. I got to get to the recording. Oh my god, we're recording in five minutes. Breathe, and then do like a lip trail, right? You got to relax all the muscles that will create your voice. So your lips, your tongue, your larynx, Just there, you go right. And then, okay, if you have a bit more time, I would start with maybe some mouth and tongue stretches. So a lot of the time, people never think about stretching their the back of their throats, which is where your vocal cords are attached to. So what you might want to do is like a lion's roar. Of you have the tip of your tongue, you put it to the back of your bottom teeth, and then you exhale, trying to stick the back of your tongue forward. But the tip of your tongue needs to be on the back of your lower teeth. There you go. So you can really extend the back of your your tongue, and that way you're stretching out your palate and everything.

Matt Cundill  29:16  
That's an actual yoga pose, by the way.

Mary Chan  29:20  
The lion's roar. Yeah, so yoga comes into play because your voice isn't just about how you sound. Your voice is connected to your body, and your body and your vocal cords are muscles. So those are what's actually creating your voice. So you need to stretch and move those pieces that help create that voice, right? So yeah. So if you have more time, definitely do more things to warm up. But I gotta say, even myself, sometimes I'm just like, okay, I just have a few minutes. I'm just gonna do those couple things, and then I'm I'm good to go.

Matt Cundill  29:58  
So I've had a few podcasts come back to me. From producers who say there's a lot of sibilance in here, where s's sort of pierce through. What's a solution for somebody who has that?

Mary Chan  30:10  
That's going to be a couple different things too, because it it could be the way that your your palate is being shaped and stuff as you speak. But the other thing too is it could be your microphone?

Matt Cundill  30:22  
Interesting.

Mary Chan  30:22  
The microphone that you have picks up different frequencies. So there are certain microphones that are actually better for removing, not removing, but like not recording the higher frequencies, which is the sibilance. So I wouldn't always necessarily say it is the person's voice. I would also take a look at how is it being recorded and how is it being audio engineered and produced on the back end too.

Matt Cundill  30:47  
Yeah, and this brings up something else that's pretty key, and that's a lot of microphones are made for men and male voices.

Mary Chan  30:54  
Exactly. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  30:55  
Traditionally, it has always been that way. It was men who were on the mic for many many years, and now we have a lot of females who've now entered the space. Do you have a a microphone recommendation that leans a little bit more female than male?

Mary Chan  31:10  
I wouldn't necessarily go that like to recommend something specific because everyone's voice is going to be a little different. One of the things that I really like now is like such as much, you know. Sure, MV7 is the one I've got. It comes with some software, and within that software, you can play around with the EQ that fits your voice. So I wouldn't say, okay, go buy a certain microphone, but go do some research and then see if there are some different software that comes with the microphone to help you out with that respect.

Matt Cundill  31:47  
It's very interesting because for years, I think the first major microphone purchase I made was a Rode, an NT two, and then I thought, oh, I need an NT one as well. And now I've got two Rode microphones, and neither one is great for me.

Mary Chan  32:00  
It's very personal.

Matt Cundill  32:01  
It's a booming voice a little bit. It can be on the booming side if we're going to kick out the car commercial. And it's that's right. And by the way, then I bought a a Rode NT three, so that's three Rode microphones we're up to now. And I tried this one out, and it was not very good for me. And here I made a $700 purchase on a microphone that I still have, and I'll tell you why. It's because my wife uses it, and she sounds really good on it.

Mary Chan  32:28  
There you go. Exactly. Not all microphones are made equal for that person's voice.

Matt Cundill  32:35  
This is this is great for those of you who are listening on the podcast because I'm just going to turn the camera into the Studio Brick studio that I have there.

Mary Chan  32:41  
In

Matt Cundill  32:42  
inside there is a Sennheiser 416, which is great for my voice. I swap out the microphone when my wife goes in there to record her podcast, and she's using the Rode. So there's a microphone out there for everybody at a different price point. My advice, if you can, is to rent the microphone.

Mary Chan  33:01  
Yes,

Matt Cundill  33:02  
give it a try, and then if it works for you, buy it outright.

Mary Chan  33:07  
I think that's what people tend to forget in this day and age of I can just buy it off of Amazon or get shipped to me. Great, yes, convenience, awesome. However, if it's not the right microphone, your podcast is going to sound bad, or not bad, but like it could be much better. So like across Canada, Longa McQuaid is amazing. Tom Lee Music, you can test out different microphones and rent them in the states. There's Sweetwater. There is the guitar centers. You know, go and ask your local space that sells instruments and microphones. Do you have microphones I can rent, and then test them all out, especially in your recording space, because the microphone could sound great in one room, but it could sound terrible in another room. So you want to test one that is good for your voice and the environment that you're in. Now

Matt Cundill  33:56  
you have a Shure MV7. It's a great microphone. I've actually got on my my list of microphones that I recommend. It comes with two different cables, though. One is a USB cable, and another one is an XLR. You're using an XLR, and you're plugging it into a Focusrite, which is an interface. And what's the difference? Like that, that's something that confuses people right away. Oh, I'm getting a microphone. I get these two cords. I guess I'll just use this USB and plug it into my Mac, and I should be good to go. But what's the difference, really?

Mary Chan  34:25  
It's the sound quality, but at the same time, if you don't have the budget or want another piece of equipment, it's so great for just plug and play. You can get that USB C, plug it in, and it's great. And I used to use that for the longest time, but then there's also compatibility issues. Not every computer, the laptop, the latest ones will. But some older laptops won't have a USB plug-in. So you or USB-C, which is the little one, most have the USC, USB, which is the big one, which the interface plug. Into, for some reason, when I bought my new laptop, it didn't like the MV7 on the small USB-C, so I actually had to swap it out to use the XLR cable, which I love the sound on more anyway. So that's the way that I've got it set up. So they they have it for convenience because it depends on the laptop and the equipment that you have. So if you are only able to plug in the little USB C, do it. But if you have the opportunity to use the XLR cable, do it because that will be a fuller, richer sound that you want.

Matt Cundill  35:38  
You've been at Organized Sound, which is your company now, it's well, it's about eight years now since you founded it,

Mary Chan  35:44  
2018. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  35:46  
I know, a long time, huh?

Mary Chan  35:48  
Jeez.

Matt Cundill  35:49  
Yeah. What do people come to you most for?

Mary Chan  35:53  
It's the production side, the launch and the production. Either I have a podcast idea, how do I get it out into the world, or I've already gone on an existing podcast, but I just want more help and support? So that could be editing, but that could also be the voice stuff. It's the yeah, I want to launch my show, but I'm just not quite sure if I'm comfortable yet behind the mic. So I get them to you know get comfortable behind the mic and do some practice rounds with me and practice sessions and voice stuff before they actually like officially record. And so it's that comfort that they know that they're going to help get some help with how they're going to sound versus the content. Because everyone that I work with, they have great content. They know what to do. They have their message. It's just how are you going to present it, and that's what I help support them with.

Matt Cundill  36:44  
What's one of the biggest misunderstandings that when someone comes to you and says, "I want to start a podcast," what's the one thing that you sort of say, "Whoa, whoa, stop! We have to back it up, and we're not going to do that. Here's what we're going to do."

Mary Chan  36:56  
First of all, it's always why do you want to start a podcast? Is it because your business coach said it's the next greatest thing and you have to do it? Is it because you want to make a ton of money? Well, if those are your answers, I'm going to say, okay, we're not going to work together because this is not how this works. So it's why do you want to start a podcast? And then from there, it's about then how are we going to bring that message to life, and how are we going to share it in a way that is unique, will engage people and hold people's attention, so that we need to create an audio brand that could be part of your visual brand, your existing brand. Does that connect? Does that not connect? When we dive deep into all sorts of things, but I always start with the why. Why do you want to start a podcast in the first place?

Matt Cundill  37:46  
What's another mistake that that people make after they start the podcast? Let's say you get seven or eight episodes in. What's something that they veer sideways on?

Mary Chan  37:55  
I think it's just that idea of like I just plug the microphone in, and I start talking, and I hit record, right? But there was no foundational thing of okay, what are you gonna do from here on out? Because podcasting is a long-term marketing thing. If you wanted to be successful, you got to put in quite a few reps, and I'm talking like a couple years here. So, great, your first seven episodes that you did. That's just your starting point. How are we going to get to what is your goal of podcasting and that why aspect? So it all ties back into the why of you why you're doing this in the first place.

Matt Cundill  38:35  
You offer also some therapy. All right, maybe it's not therapy, but it's also there's a podcast audit that you do offer, so we can bring our podcast to you, and you can tell us how we're doing, right?

Mary Chan  38:46  
Kind of, yeah. I guess you could call it like podcast therapy, yeah. Where if you, you know, you you you want to do your own thing, and I get that you don't want us to come in and help produce your show, but you just need a second set of ears, and it is being about okay. I'm listening to it as a listener because podcasters are so like in their fishbowl. They're just swimming around in circles, creating their next episode, publishing it, creating another episode, publishing it, and they don't listen back like a listener would. So I come into it like a listener, but also having that radio background, right? And I call it like a best friend critique. You know, I'm not going to be all judgmental and Gordon Ramsay you with your your podcast. It's going to be okay. What what am I hearing, and how can you improve that? Whether it is your voice technique, mic technique, the the overall brand, the technical aspects, but also you know things like titles and show notes and all the other things that a listener would be looking for.

Matt Cundill  39:51  
Why don't we want to self check more often? Because it's really really important. It's where you really determine that oh maybe this doesn't sound right and maybe I. Need to fix something right away, but why do we shy away from that self-check?

Mary Chan  40:03  
The voice is so personal, and people still are not always comfortable listening back to themselves because of, again, I'm talking about like all the things that happened to us when we were kids, or where whenever someone had said something to you about your voice. People take that very personally because it's who they are. It represents who you are, and so when you're like, "Well, I'll just use the excuse of, well, we just have to produce another episode. I'm busy. I also have full time work, or I'm running my business. Don't have time for that. Let's just produce the content because that's what the algorithm is telling us we need to do. Content, content, content, and they shy away from it, or they listen back to it at two times speed, and they're like, "Oh yeah, I listen back to my podcast." Like, but did you really and listen to it again? Not like a judgmental voice, but just as a listener, as your best friend listening, it creates a totally different way of hearing your show to help you create a better show. And so, I don't think people realize the impact of reviewing your own work, which in radio is something that we were taught to do because of all of our air checks and stuff, and that we could hear our work constantly on the broadcast dials, right? So, podcasting is a little different, where we're so focused on the algorithm and content creation, especially if you're doing a weekly show, that it gets missed and it's not talked about enough. That people need to be listening to their show like a listener, and you don't you don't have to do it all the time. I know I get it. Capacity, right? When you listen to your show, you might be listening to it to edit. You might be listening to it to write show notes. You might be listening to it to make sure that it even it played properly on Spotify or whatever. But to listen to one or two episodes, I'm not saying every single one. If you can, that'd be great. But maybe once a month, listen to an episode or two. How are you doing there?

Matt Cundill  42:09  
I know somebody heard something about themselves in that last answer that you just said. And if you did, where can they find you?

Mary Chan  42:18  
I am online, Obviously, organized sound.ca is where you'll find me, and yeah, we can we can talk voice stuff, podcast stuff. I'm on LinkedIn every now and then, and I have an Instagram account, but I'm not really. I I don't like social media, so yeah.

Matt Cundill  42:39  
LinkedIn is social media.

Mary Chan  42:40  
I know it is, but that's why I said I'm kind of there.

Matt Cundill  42:43  
Mary, thanks so much for being on the Sound Off podcast. Appreciate it.

Mary Chan  42:46  
Thank you for having me. This was fun, and I knew two former radio people would have fun together. 

Voiceover

Another Sound Off Media Company podcast.