Sam Sethi: How To TrueFans.fm

Tara Sands  0:02  
The sound of podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
I came from radio, and sometime in the early 2000s radio stopped pushing the boundaries of what it could do. This is why you get the same contest 10 in a row every hour and seven minute commercial breaks. Still today, also in the early 2000s podcasting was invented. Now I've always associated podcasting with audio innovation, and can see that there is so much more to come. And one of the things I've kept my eye on is Sam sethis true fans, Sam appeared on our show back in 2023 and spoke about pod fans at the time, which has now evolved forward into true fans.fm. True fans right now represents a lot of the things that podcasting can be, which includes creators making money and listeners interacting with their favorite shows. It started with experimentation, and now true fans, lets podcasters host their shows, build a real community around them, and actually monetize that relationship, not just through downloads and ads, but also micro payments, subscriptions, one off episode payments and other value for value models like any radio contest, if it's too complicated, people are not going to want to participate. Sam has worked very hard to simplify everything. You can top up your wallet using things like stripe your credit card, debit card or Apple and Google Pay. Sam and his team have also leaned into streaming analytics that go way beyond simple download numbers. Instead of just knowing how many times your show was downloaded, you can see how long people listened or watched where they dropped off and what parts really landed. If I tell you any more about this, I'm going to spoil the surprises. Feel free to go to true fans.fm sign up and associate yourself with your show and your favorite shows, and enjoy this episode. And now. Sam Sethi joins me from Cookham, England. Sam, since we last spoke, true fans has evolved. But for those who may not be familiar with it, what is true fans.fm?

Sam Sethi  2:08  
True fans.fm. Was a scratch that I wanted to itch. And originally, I was watching Adam curry and Dave Jones putting together some very cool namespace stuff, and I wanted to see what that all was. And so I started looking at a little platform we call pod fans, and then it sort of evolved into a more serious app. And over the last two and a half to three years, we've implemented pretty much every namespace extension, call them features, if you want, of RSS. And I was getting frustrated about six or seven months ago with talking about the alternative enclosure, talking about publisher feeds, talking about all of the micro payment stuff and going while the hosts doing this stuff. I need the host to implement it. It was chicken and egg, and for whatever reason, it just wasn't happening fast enough for me, so about Yeah, September of last year, I decided to create a hosting platform as well. So true fans today is a marketplace for creators to host and have all the tools and services to create community and to monetize their fandom.

Matt Cundill  3:20  
So for those who don't know, because they missed the first wave of discussion, I think back in 2023 when a lot of this came to light, like, what is value

Sam Sethi  3:29  
for value? Value for value is a principle, rather than anything else. It's a philosophy. It's, I will give you something, time, talent or treasure. Often we hear about micro payments or Fiat payments. So dollars, pounds, euros, in exchange for supporting a creator. So I might want to say, Matt, I love your podcast. I'm going to stream your podcast. I I'm listening to it, and as I'm listening, I'm going to give you 10 cents per minute, right? Or 50 cents that might already be translated into a micro payment of 1000 SATs. So depending on what currency you want to play in, it doesn't matter. So that's true value for value in terms of I'm giving you money in exchange for the value you give me in the content you deliver. But I could give you a cover art image. I could give you comments which are non payable. I might share it with my friends and say, Hey, Matt, I've shared it with 50 people. So it's not always a monetary requirement, but it's a lovely principle of fans supporting the creators in whatever method they can.

Matt Cundill  4:38  
So when I first walked into this 2023, roughly, the first thing I did was I needed a wallet, and I think I reached out to moon pay, put a few $100 down. And now I've got all these Satoshis, and I can start to spread them around. And I was using the fountain app to do that. And then I think I had. Was involved with something called Get Alby Albi wallet, and then things began to change. I stopped to be supported by Alby. I think at one point, I set a few podcasts up to receive some Satoshi payments, and I'm always paying them out, but I'm always doing it through fountain. So what has changed over the last three years, and how do I catch up?

Sam Sethi  5:19  
Okay, so let's demystify all of that. So olby is a centralized hub. Think of a transfer of micro payments. So you have a wallet. I have a wallet. How does it get from our wallets? Well, it's a peer to peer system. So I have an email address for my wallet. In effect, Sam at true fans. You have one, maybe matt@fountain.fm So just as I send you an email, I send you, Hey, Matt, I want to send you some money. I type in to matt@fountain.fm and I send it from me. The Clearing House is the olby hub. That's all it is. It's just a clearing place where you can set your wallet up and you can see your wallet transactions. The thing that came about a couple of years ago that sort of blew the whole simplicity up was there was rumors in America that they weren't going to allow wallets, and all that transaction was going to become illegal. And so people started pulling back, namely Albay, saying, Look, we're not going to go and get a license for 50 different states. We can't afford it. It's too expensive. And everyone went, oh my god, now, fountain, have done a great job. Oscar's a good friend of mine, and I think what Oscar's done is he's gone with a model that says you can bring any third party wallet strike and it all be, I mean, there's a plethora of them. Ollie went with a different model, which was, we give you a true fountains wallet when you join. And now with fountain, it's the onboarding is, Hey Matt, welcome to fountain. Now, grab a wallet. Now grab noster. Now, do your KYC know your customer? So answer these 10 questions, whatever it may be, I felt that that was too many steps, that was too many barriers to entry for what I would call normies. I just want to listen to our podcast. Why am I having to do all these things? Right? Well, I fully agreed. So what we did was we, we basically provide you with a virtual wallet in true fans, we filled out with some funny money, some SATs for you through our gamification onboarding. So hey, Matt, send your first comment. Oh, look, I've got some SAS. Send your first boost to somebody, or maybe play a podcast and get a bit of money, right? We wanted the wallet to be something that appeared, like peeling back an onion. It wasn't the first thing that you met, but when you found it and you got to understand it. Oh, this is interesting. How do I do more of this? And then we made it so it was so simple to top up your wallet through Apple Pay or Google pay via stripe, so you didn't have to go, oh, how do I do this thing? It's really difficult. And then we take care of all of the back end transactions. So if you want to pay in Canadian dollars, US dollars, Swedish Corona pay. And then we do the micro payment transactions in the background, and we ship it from one wallet to another. So where it's got to today is there's been a lot of change. I still think it's pushing a rock up a hill. I think it's the hardest thing in podcasting to try and get across. And I think people are still probably six to 12, maybe even 18 months away from mass adoption. It could be that far away.

Matt Cundill  8:25  
So I got excited when I went in and saw stripe. I said, Oh, wait, I have that I can now play in the sandbox. And I got very excited. It's the little things, right? Because I did go in a number of months ago. I said, Well, I'm gonna have to learn all this stuff. And how much time is it going to take me to learn? But now it's like, yeah, I can. I can go right in and I've got myself a wallet. And I guess the question I would ask for anybody who's a creator, and I've seen a number of creators who are now involved with truefence.fm, what's in it for the Creator?

Sam Sethi  8:57  
So the Creator aggregates the amount of money that any fan will pay them, and then they can simply withdraw that money out of our system back into whatever currency you want. So when you join, you set up your Stripe account. So that's for topping up your wallet, but that same wallet for a creator is where fans are putting their money in, and when you've got to a certain amount of money, then thank you very much. Take it out and do what you want with it. So we've made topping up and withdrawal as simple as having a Stripe account. And the

Matt Cundill  9:28  
next question is, what's in it for the listener?

Sam Sethi  9:31  
So the listener has two real benefits, really. First one is, Hey, Matt, might be saying, Look, I been doing this for so long. I'm not making any money from it. My wife's saying that you're wasting your time. I'm going away. The fan goes, no, Matt, this is my daily walk. Listen, I You cannot go away. So it's a simple way of making a payment to the Creator. Now there are multiple other ways of paying the Creator. Of course, you can do. A monthly subscription if you wanted to, but maybe you just want to pay for this one episode. And so I think the reason true fans is called true fans is from a blog written by Kevin Kelly, which is, can you get 1000 true fans? If you get 1000 true fans paying you $10 a month, you've 100,000 pound business, right? And that fundamentally, was written back in the beginning of the 90s, when everyone was collecting likes and and, you know, and hearts. And he said, Look, stop chasing 2 million likes. That's non monetary. That's no value. Go for that small community of value. And I think that's what we hold true today. We see the next iteration of podcasting, and it's very simple to see when you look at Patreon or supercast or sub stack or beehive Now, everyone's building community, and it's that small, niche community around your content and super fans who then support you that will sustain you.

Matt Cundill  10:59  
So one of the fascinating trends I've seen so far in 2026 and by the way, thank you for inviting me on the pod news weekly review the year ended to get predictions. I did not have this one in even though it had been announced. But there are companies like true fence, like Riverside, like beehive, who now offer to host a podcast. Why is hosting a podcast so valuable for companies like yours.

Sam Sethi  11:23  
So there is a thing in hosting which says that if you can get somebody to be hosted on your platform, it's probably a six to 12 month revenue stream, because people don't like to move right. So that's the first thing we, or I didn't do, true fans hosting because I just wanted to be a host. I think hosting is a commodity now. It's a service within a platform. It's not a primary service anymore, and one of the things I've been banging the drum on for at least two, maybe three years is that the download is not a play. It's not a metric of value that you should be using. It's a legacy metric that came from the days of slow, dial up internet, where you had to download the podcast because you couldn't stream it, and here we are on 5g networks and Wi Fi. So what we've done with our hosting is very different. We stream your video and we stream your audio. So when you play a hosted episode from true fans, we break it up into six second packets, then each packet gets delivered. And then we can actually give you, as a creator, another benefit, which is we can measure your actual listen time or watch time. And so now you go, how many people actually played my podcast and how long did they play it for? So we give you consumption data. So yes, you can get, you know, we still give you the download number. So if you want it to be 10,000 downloads, because that's a big number, you have that number. Then we show you what that was in actual plays across all apps, not just true fans, but all apps. And then we will show you the percentage of how far the individual player played. So yes, you might have an average episode of an 80% consumption or 90% consumption, and you'll see troughs and peaks where people have skipped forward or where they haven't. So for creators, that's great, because you can then go back and look at that and say, Great, I had this many plays. That was the consumption on average. Oh, that chapter didn't hit whatever we were talking about there. That was awful, right? So I won't do any more of that in the future.

Matt Cundill  13:23  
So I got an email from you, and it gave me all my stats, and I'm like, Oh, these are the most useful stats I'm ever going to get, because it had all the consumption and it had a lot of the data sent back to me. I'm not going to knock art 19, but they just send me my daily downloads and on days where I'm haven't published. It comes out at about 50, and it's always around 50 every day. And I don't get as excited as I used to about downloads, but I do get excited about consumption. I think there's a push in the industry to make more of that available. The question I have here for you, though is, how do you decide what to do next with your product? Because it comes quickly. Oh, we're gonna do video. Oh, what about live? Can we incorporate live? Like this is endless. What you can incorporate into into true fans?

Sam Sethi  14:11  
Yeah. I mean, I have a roadmap in my head. I have a roadmap on paper as well, just to be safe. The reality is, audio was was brought out. Video just came out recently, and live will come out this month. They're the three that I see now. Audio, pretty simple to do. Video, one of the things that we've done, again, two things that might be interesting to people listening. One is, first of all, we give you half a terabyte of data streaming in your audio package. So what we do is to say it's $15 a month, but you get half a terabyte of data. So if you only use a quarter of that terabyte, or half your data allowance, we refund you the amount from your fee, so you're not paying $15 we work out after three months where your average monthly usage is and then. We set that as your monthly figure, and then it rotates. So what we do is give you a variable pricing, right? Other hosts give you what we call fixed pricing. So if you went to blueberry, Captivate bus Brown, it's $20 on average, and they take $20 irrelevant of whether anyone's listened to your podcast or not, right? We just go based on how many people play your podcast is how much you get charged. And we've done the same with video, which is $30 a month. And we'll do the same with live so how do I pick and choose? Well, I knew that I wanted those three capabilities for creators. I knew that I wanted streaming analytics for creators. And finally, on the front end, yeah, we've got a whole set of things around creating what I call portals. So yes, you get your audio, your video, but you get your pod rolls, you get your events, and you get your merch store as well, which we just recently added.

Matt Cundill  15:53  
So the sound off podcast, let's say this is being recorded for video. How do I incorporate that into true fans?

Sam Sethi  16:00  
So you if you're not hosted with us. So there's two things, right? So let's say you just wanted to add video elements to the true fans. So you could claim for free your sound off podcast. You get an access to the creator's dashboard in the back end. You could take this episode and can just upload the MP four in the alternative enclosure, for free. We don't charge you and boom, anyone who's listening on true fans gets that now that doesn't disseminate it to other apps, but if you were hosted with us, then you would do the same thing, but we would then push that to Apple directory, Spotify directory, YouTube, and also to podcast index

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Matt Cundill  17:15  
Okay, so this is another silly question. So a company is like Captivate and art 19, and now Libsyn and others that are now handling video for Apple for their HLS distribution, which is now arrived. Is that something you can tap into as well? So let's say I'm going to be uploading this to art 19. There's a video copy of it. Are you going to be able to tap into that?

Sam Sethi  17:39  
Okay, let's break that down. Apple just came out with an API that allows parties that are approved by Apple to distribute video to Apple only, right? And they don't do it via RSS. They do it via the API. Now we have been given approval for that, and we will be bringing that out very shortly, in the next couple of weeks. It's not a big thing. The thing that is happening, though, is, as you said, correctly, Matt, is that this is now an HLS. So a bit like I said, we break things into six second packets, rather than delivering the whole download. HLS is the method of doing that. So Apple have said, stream your video to us. Don't download your video to us, which is great companies like transistor, rss.com, ourselves will also put the same HLS that we send to Apple in the alternative enclosure, and so apps like podverse and fountain that support the alternative enclosure, as well as tray fans, will then also be able to play your video. It won't just be on Apple, it will now be on all apps. So it requires the host to say, yes. One, I'm a partner with Apple. Two, I've created or converted your MP four into HLS. And three, I've also added your HLS into the alternative enclosure, so it's available not just for Apple, but for every other app as well. I have

Matt Cundill  19:02  
another program, and it goes live. And it goes live because I like to see what's available live. So what's the role that this show, which is called the podcast, Super Friends, which is done live, can have with true fans today?

Sam Sethi  19:16  
Nothing, I'm afraid, as I said, we are testing our live servers so we support what's called the live item tag we have done from day one, so shows like podcasting 2.0 with Adam curry and Dave Jones every Friday night, you can listen to that on true fans, not a problem at all. So as a recipient app, but as a service to creators, we will be rolling out a live server so you don't have to go and find the server for yourself. We will provide that for you. You will be able to promote that to your listeners, that this show is going live at a certain time, so they'll get a notification, and we will record that show for you and make it available to you, so then you can upload it into your RSS feed that. We have another feature that is on true fans is called co listening. And CO listening basically says, If we follow each other on true fans, like any social network, it'll pop up and say, Hey, Matt's listening to this show. I click on your name and I join you at exactly the same timestamp within the show. The bit we didn't finish was we didn't provide a chat client. So that's the next thing we want to do, is provide that chat so when we launch live, it'll be a live server for creators scheduling to allow you to tell your fans, and then for fans to be able to listen in real time and chat together.

Matt Cundill  20:39  
So I'm a fan of the I don't mean to put pressure on you to to get work done by, you know, five o'clock today, to make sure that this is up. But I did see the possibilities a number of years ago, and I had the fountain app, and it integrated somewhat well into my CarPlay. And on the app was the live feature, and there was the new media show at the time, which was live. And I'm driving around listening to the show live, and I go, that's, that's a thing, that's something I can get behind and enjoy. So I'm always interested in the live tag and how it's being implemented. So I'm not here to put pressure on you to get this done by

Sam Sethi  21:09  
five now. I mean, look five years ago, at a radio station called River radio. We did 40 live shows a week, and we then transferred those to podcasts straight after, right? The live item tag didn't exist at that time. I had it done, I would have used it. I see live podcasting akin to live radio, right? I don't see anything different. You could have a podcast to have just one show once a week goes live, or you could have a podcaster in a network of shows that has a schedule that goes one after the other, like a radio station. So I think live is going to have a really big impact. It's just, I don't think we, the hosting community and the podcast app community, have done enough yet to really make it easy, but we will get there.

Matt Cundill  21:54  
So something else I found very interesting is that the money doesn't necessarily have to flow towards you. It can actually flow the other way, which is something that you have done. You've got to think about seven introductory episodes to true fans. I think you're co hosting that with Claire, wait Brown, correct? And the money goes the other way. You are streaming this to my wallet in true fans. And so, yeah, hey, that's great. Money can flow the other way. I can pay people to listen to my show.

Sam Sethi  22:22  
Yes. And it started off with Adam curry wanting to do a music show, and he had something called booster grand ball. And in that show, the idea was that Adam would talk, and I would pay him as a fan. But then when the music appeared, the money would switch to the wallet of the music artist, and then when the music finish up, switched back to Adam. I went, well, that's really interesting. We can switch money, and we do that, but I think, why can't I switch money from the Creator to the listener? Because it's an incentive. The bit we haven't built, but I've talked about for a number of years now, is, I think the advertising model within podcasting is broken. I think it's a busted flush. So the idea is, I say to an advertiser, please advertise on my podcast, and we'll do dynamic ad insertion. And they come back and say, Well, how did that go then? And we go, Well, you've got 10,000 downloads, yeah. But how many people listen to it? Oh, we can't tell you. Okay, if you could tell me, could you tell me how long they listened to my ad? No, we can't tell you that either. So you're telling me to pay you lots of money to just trust you that my ad was heard. Yes, well, I don't think that's good enough. So the streaming model we have now will allow advertisers to be able to know exactly how many times their advert was played and for how long. But the one last part that I find really interesting is the advertiser doesn't want to reach Matt. The advertiser wants to reach Matt's listeners, right? He wants to advertise, or she wants to advertise to those listeners. Well, it's my time and attention of the listener that you're asking for. Please listen to my advert. And I'm like, now I'm going to skip forward. It has no value to me. Well, in the value for value model, what if 90% of the payment went to Matt, but 10% of the payment went to me as the listener. Now I've got an incentive to listen, right? So now I get, hey, there's money coming into my wallet because I'm listening to this advert. Now if I find the advert interesting, I'll listen to it for 100% I can still skip forward if I find it useless. And guess what? At the point I skip the advertiser stops paying me. Stops paying Matt as well, by the way. But the whole point about it is that with streaming, flowing digital monies, we can do these reverse payments, switching payments, and that's why I think it's one of these things that has lots and lots of legs and value. I just think it's still too complex right now for people to get their heads around. So it's still going to be six to 12 months before we get this model really going.

Matt Cundill  24:54  
Sam, what question should I have asked by now that I haven't

Sam Sethi  24:57  
why will anyone use true funds? When they can get YouTube for free, when Apple and Spotify are the big beasts in the market, and will anyone understand what streaming means when you're a host?

Matt Cundill  25:10  
Do I have to ask that question again, by the way, it's a great point that you do that. It probably is a question, because I do have Spotify and Apple, which I spend most of my time on, like most people and 80% of the people who listen to this podcast, this podcast come from there, and we're asking people to leave and go to another app. And often I will do it so that I can provide value to you. Know, whether it's you and James on the pod, news, weekly review, or I can leave comments, or that's why I'm kind of getting up to go to that interaction I'm looking for. How do I do less Apple Spotify and more, you know, true fans and other apps. So I

Sam Sethi  25:46  
think, look Apple, I have said I was in Microsoft before I jumped ship to join Netscape, and when Microsoft brought out the Internet Explorer and built it into the operating system, the DOJ. So that's too much. Apple has the hardware, the software, the App Store, the dev tools, the podcast, default player, somewhere along that line, I think that's a monopoly, right? And it needs to be stopped. But let's say it's not stopped. There's a lot of value in Apple, so I'm not going to try and argue against it. The thing that Apple and Spotify and YouTube are, they're silos, so you as a creator are having to go into individual dashboards to find out where your community is. You're going to have to go into those individual platforms to, you know, set different features and functions of each platform. The other thing that you're going to miss out on is you can't create community on those Spotify will never let you customize that UI. Never let you get access to the listeners in a playlist of where you can send out a newsletter. YouTube's the same, right? I think what those platforms are very good are, are algorithmic discovery. I think you have to be on those platforms. It would be crazy not to be but I think when you look at sub stack and Super Cast, and, you know, you look at big podcasts like Kara Swisher with pivot, or you look at Scott Galloway, or, you know, others, they they've begun to understand that actually, I don't want to be on these three silos. I want to be creating my community. I want a newsletter. I want a blog, I want a merch store, I want a live event and a ticketing of now that's been the goal of true fans for day one, to build a creator portal. We're close, and that's where I think, you know, adding hosting as a ancillary service wasn't our primary goal. It was the whole package. And I think you've seen that with beehive and sub stack. They do live podcasting, they do recorded podcasting. Now they do newsletters. That's the market. That's where everyone should be in 26 pick your platform. That's fine, but I don't think it's apple, I don't think it's Spotify, and I don't think it's YouTube, yeah,

Matt Cundill  27:58  
and so I can get behind that completely. I have creators who are prospective creators who come to me all the time and more than ever now say, Well, I'd like to build a community, and we need to be on YouTube. And I'm like, Oh, well, we have some other things to put in front before you get on YouTube, I would say. And one of the things I know that you had to do, and I know it took a little bit of courage and a push, but I think you knew you had to do it, and that was to get an app for true fans on Apple. And you know, one of the things that I noticed is that, oh, now that there's an app, it's on my phone, then my phone carries into the car, and I'm interacting, then again, with true fans, and I can sort of carry it around with me. So it's a necessary evil, I think. But at the same time, it's great to have, hey, we got an app, and it's almost like you want true fans to kind of be everywhere without being everywhere.

Sam Sethi  28:47  
Yeah, we had to do that. It's Pavlovian behavior, right? You know the number of times I got asked, Hey, like true fans, where can I get it? In the App Store? No, just go to the web browser. Oh, I don't know how to add to home screen. That doesn't make sense to me. I just know how to go to an App Store, Google or Apple, click on a button and it appears on my my phone. Look. That was fine, and we did that. And I think there's things we can do to improve our app as well. I think one of the things is that, you know, with anyone who builds software, it's a moving target. It's always hard to have. You'll never have perfection, because there's always going to be another feature or another version or another iteration that you can always improve on. So I think one of the interesting things that we did was we built true fans as a PWA Progressive Web App. What does that mean? It means that it's sizes to any screen. What's exciting is the I don't know if you've heard of the new iPhone 18, the foldable iPhone, which is going to be my birthday present in September. This is what I'm getting excited about. So Apple have said they've seen the Samsung foldable phone. So they take an iPhone size and you open it to be an iPad, and it's beautiful. And one of the things is that Apple are struggling with and we'll see this at WD. See shortly is they're going to have to ask all of their app developers to redo their apps to be sizable to multiple screen sizes, because you can't just have the iPad app, and you can't just have the iPhone app, it too won't work when you get double the screen size. So PWAs will have this ability to just work magically out the box. The things that I'm excited about with the app that are coming down the track. I think AI interfaces to them. I think all apps will have them. I think you can see Spotify is DJ X right now, if you want to try what an AI interface looks like. I think that's really clever, you know, because it's bringing out from your playlist tracks that you haven't heard for years. Spotify just announced a playlist for podcasts where you can ask, you know, a prompt I want every tech podcast goes off and gets you all it creates a playlist for you. I think we're going to call our AI Kevin and Kelly, after Kevin Kelly himself and the AI can be for you as a user, a fan or a creator. So if you're just a fan, it'll say, Hey, welcome back, Matt. You've got three podcasts ready in your queue. What should I do? Bang, play this, play that, or find me this, right? That sort of voice interface. And I think voice should be the interface. I think voice for leaving comments, voice for, you know, just interacting with the app as a creator. There's a lot more you can do. You know, tell me if I've got any comments. Tell me if anyone's followed my podcast. Give me some analytics. Yeah, you've had 17 plays out. It's a really quick thing. You said you were in the car. Imagine you get in the car. First thing, it says, Hey, welcome back, Matt. You've got your hands on the steering wheel. You've got all these comments. Oh, great. Play me the comments, right? Bang, bang, bang. So I think in a voice medium like podcasting, we should have voice interfaces.

Matt Cundill  31:50  
The other thing I think that would is very beneficial, that if you know you're a creator, and you're going to use true fans, and that's a badge, there's a badge package, right? I can download, yes. Can we get Dave Jackson and Brendan over at podpage to give us a true fence badge?

Speaker 1  32:07  
I'll ask them. I'd love it if they did. You know what?

Matt Cundill  32:11  
You take the rest of the day off. I'll do that.

Sam Sethi  32:14  
Thank you. I think you know, if you fast forward six months, where are we? I think we will be audio, video long leave. We'll have streaming stats for all of that. We will have all of the front end creator portal done. You'll have customized domain so you can have Matt cundill.com as opposed to true fan slash, sounds profitable and whatever. So the whole thing is, as I said, nine tenths built. And the problem is, when you look at the puzzle is still slightly confusing. You can't quite fit everything in. But I think once we get to the end, and I think that the other thing that I forgot to mention that you might like is, if anyone listens or watches on true fans, we charge zero to the Creator. So if you bring your fan base across, you get zero payments. So not only we do we refund your unused data, but we charge you zero if you listen on the platform. That's very aggressive. I get it, but I think we've got to move the model. We can't just do the same old, same old,

Matt Cundill  33:13  
no, and it's a pivotal time, too, with the integration and video coming to most platforms, and people kind of expect the same way as sort of I expect, oh, that there would be an app for this, that there would be some sort of video component to something as well. So it's great to see that you're right at the front of the line here with this.

Sam Sethi  33:29  
Yeah, one of the things that Dave Jones from the pods did ask about six months ago was, is there a way to configure an app to be just a podcast app, or just a music app, or just their audio book app. And again, you'll see that very soon, you'll be able to go into the user settings and say, I just want this to be my AUDIO BOOK app, and then we'll remove all the other stuff around it. It'll be very clean. Or you might say, I just want audio books and podcasts and music goes so again, customization is one of the big things that I want to focus on towards the end of this year.

Matt Cundill  34:01  
Excellent. You know, Sam, you've done a great job with this, and I'm excited to get back in and play with all the new toys that you've created for us creators.

Sam Sethi  34:08  
Thank you. No, that's very kind, Matt. And again, if anyone's got suggestions for things we don't have, I'm always open. Thanks, Sam. Thanks, Matt.

Tara Sands  34:22  
And now, another sound off media company podcast you.