Navigating Imposter Syndrome - Dale Curd Provides Insights And Strategies To Move Past It.

Matt Cundill  00:01

This is the mental approach where we discuss mindfulness, mental performance and the tools available for coping in a high performance world. Here's Todd Arkell

Todd Arkell  00:11

today, my esteemed guest is Dale Kurd. Dale is a distinguished mental health professional executive coach and media host who brings a rare blend of therapeutic insight, public facing communication and practical training design. What does all that mean? It means he became widely known to a bunch of Canadians. He hosted a series on CBC called hello, goodbye. You might remember him, the guy sitting on a couch in the middle of the airport, talking to people, talking to strangers about some of their most intimate thoughts. He also co hosted a life story project on the opport Winfrey Network, and is also a co author of a book. He's very involved in men's mental health. I think he has a really great perspective on a lot of things, and I'm so pleased for you to join us. Dale, welcome. Thank you,

Dale Curd  01:01

Todd for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here with you.

Todd Arkell  01:04

Yeah, no, I think it's great. And I think what what's exciting for me is to talk about something that I think a lot of people deal with, and often we don't just stick to one topic, and maybe we'll meander a little bit, but today, we want to talk about imposter syndrome. And so I guess my first question is, how would you define imposter syndrome in everyday language?

Dale Curd  01:31

I think the best way to describe imposter syndrome is that it's an identity lag. So what I mean by that is our mind, and, more importantly, our mind's perspective on who we are. It takes time to catch up to the reality of our day to day, and imposter syndrome is this space in between. So we life is all about new experiences, right? It's all about growing. It's all about taking steps forward, right from birth all the way to the end, you're still taking steps forward till the very end. Our minds take a while to catch up to the things that we take on in our in our real life, and that space in between is what I would call an identity lag. It takes a while for our minds to build up a kind of confidence in ourselves and people who experience identity lag. And I've worked with a lot of guys of all ages who who have this in various forms, it's usually that that lag. They put themselves in a new situation, or they're in a new environment, or they're being asked to essentially step up based on who they are already, the skills they have already, and their mind hasn't quite caught up to that perspective of them. It's going to take a while. It's going to take a while of repetition for that to build up. So you see this a lot, for instance, in sports, right? You see when somebody gets brought up, say, from the minors into the majors, there's this period of time where their mind, the more importantly, the subconscious and the ego, and those are two different things. They have to get the reps underneath them, meaning they have to have the opportunities to experience those skills or to experience that environment. If you've never been in the show, so to speak, that's going to take a while to adjust. For that period of time is where the confidence gets built through reps and in, and the person who's just stepping into that, well, they might, their mind might cast some doubt on whether they actually belong in that new environment. And that's what I would call imposter syndrome. I'm actually not a big fan of the label syndrome, because in my understanding of how the mind works, it's not a pathology, if you will. And that's what the word syndrome, to me, implies, that it's a pathology that some somebody has to kind of find their way through, or they they're with it for their entire life. And really what you're up against is the creation that your ego has of who you are and rewriting that program, if you will.

Todd Arkell  04:22

Yeah, no, it makes total sense. I mean, you hear a lot of people say, Oh, fake it till you make it. I guess is kind of the thing. If you're not sure what you're doing, just go ahead and kind of push forward through it. But I think there is that, that feeling for anyone when they're thrust into a situation like, am I? Am I good enough to do this? Other people see me that doing this. I don't know, am I it can? It can definitely be just just about in every aspect of one's life. I think it can. Can definitely come across. So what? What do you think some of the common misconceptions are about this particular identity?

Dale Curd  04:57

Well, I think you hit on one right away. I. Just in what you were describing there. I think sometimes people misinterpret the fake it till you make it as being inauthentic or disingenuous, and really fake it till you make it is, in my world, if I'm working with a client, is about do the reps. Okay, sure, that's really fake it till you make it like do the reps, like you actually belong in that situation, or you belong in that environment, or you belong in that new task set. That's fake it till you make it it's not pretending. It's actually getting yourself to commit, to do to the to do the reps. And I think that's one misconception, that there's something that I'm having to pretend in order to gain the confidence. Another misconception is that we go into new things. We tend to go into new things as human beings, thinking that we have to have confidence first in order to be competent. And it's actually the reverse. It's the more execution you get to do, the more reps you get to do. That is what builds up competency in that one area, and that's what gives you confidence Our minds are programmed to really, really protect who we are. Do you mind if I just give you a quick, quick explanation, that's

Todd Arkell  06:25

why you're here. You're the expert.

Dale Curd  06:28

Well, I guess, I guess, I mean I, because I encounter this quite a bit, especially in executives, especially in executives, because executives that are on a fast track, or they've been put on the, say, the the C suite track. They're often growing at a rate and getting put into new situations at a rate that's really difficult for their minds to catch up to. And so this is where I see it most, and I think it's worthwhile talking about, what's the what? What part of the mind am I actually talking about here? Well, there's two parts. There's the subconscious. And I guess I think the best analogy I could use for this is I want you to imagine that the subconscious is like a factory floor. It's got all of these automatic processes that are running, and those processes in our minds are our beliefs, our impulses, our narratives about ourself, our understanding of the world, and those run on kind of autopilot, if you will. And the ego is the office manager. The Office manager's job is to make sure that that factory floor hums at optimal rates, if you will. Within that is also what it's protecting. It's protecting some things, and it's really good at its job. It protects our sense of self, so not who we really are, but who we've come to make ourselves into, to become acceptable to the outside world, and the office manager's job, or the ego, is to protect that. It's also there to protect our view of the world, if you will, the foundational narratives of how we think the world works. It's there to protect that as well, and it's really, really good at its job of protection. Sure is. And when you think about it that way, imposter syndrome or this lag, if you will, in confidence, is really the ego doing a really, really good job of protecting us and keeping us in a kind of comfort zone of how we know ourselves. So that, I think is, is is where the, if you will, the MIS misconceptions start. Because really what we're talking about is an individual's ego, protecting them and keeping them in a in a box, if you will. And that is in opposition to the risks that that person take, just in terms of being alive, just going forward in life, right, seizing new opportunities, getting those promotions, getting those new opportunities, getting those at bats, if you will, and the two of them, there's a tension there, right? Because as you keep experiencing life and you keep growing, you keep pulling the ego into new spaces that it has to catch up and kind of rewrite who you are.

Todd Arkell  09:36

And then it makes me wonder, you know, I was watching an NBA player the other day. So, you know, somebody asked how he why he was successful. He said, an unhealthy dose of confidence, unwavering. Like, he just, like, I'm gonna, I'm great. Like, and so almost a total reverse effect to that. And I'm like, How does somebody have that ability to do that, right? Like, to actually just. Make it like, I'm I'm amazing, even though they probably, deep down, didn't think they were, but they're somehow able to project that outwardly.

Dale Curd  10:10

It's, it'd be incredible to unpack that confidence, right? Like, what is that confidence really built on? I suspect, without knowing who you're talking about, I would suspect that the confidence is, is in their approach, not in this view of who they are as a static individual. If you know what I mean, it's probably in I'm great because I it's it's more about how I approach and then take on these new challenges, or how I've grown my career, how I've added and amplified my athleticism is probably in that versus somebody who, say, has a perception of themselves that they're a natural born talent, sure, because it's usually those individuals who are a Natural Born talent when they face adversity, when they face challenge, when they can't hit a certain kind of ball, I go back to that. What is that Clint Eastwood movie with something about the curve? Right? Oh, yeah, Trouble With the Curve. That's what it was. Trouble With the Curve, right? You have this natural born young athlete who is amazing at hitting hitting one or two kinds of pitches, and then struggles to hit this, this variation, and then that rocks his world. That kind of rocks his identity of being a superstar. The athlete you're talking about is likely somebody who's figured out that it's about how they approach that. It's about earning confidence through repetition.

Todd Arkell  11:40

So if you're if you're somebody, you're an athlete, and you're feeling like you're maybe beyond your depth, or whatever, what are some strategies they can use to to kind of help reduce those feelings of, I'll call it inadequacy, because I think that's what it is. You don't feel like you belong, or whether you deserve, what, what's going on in the moment?

Dale Curd  12:03

Well, I think that's what the ego is trying to convince you. Like I think your ego, that young athlete that you're talking about, his ego or her ego, it's trying to convince them that they don't belong. It's trying to convince them that they might fail. It's trying to convince them that they are taking on too much, but in fact, what's happening is it's the ego adjusting to those new scenarios. So it's actually not a sense of inadequacy. There might be something on the factory floor in the subconscious that says for this, this set of reasons that I experienced when I was really young. I think I might have a fatal flaw, or I think I might be broken in some way for sure, and then the ego the office manager comes in and says, Okay, well, let's protect for that. But that's not necessarily the truth. It's what that individual's young mind came to understand and create a story around for why those things or that thing happened to them. Right in my work, when I work with clients, and we start, if you will, rewriting the OS, that's how I say to clients, I said, Listen, I'm not a I am I am not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist. I'm a performance coach. That's what I do. And one of the things that we're going to do is we're going to first explore what your original OS is. What is that 1.0 programming that was put in there because that 1.0 programming is out of step, it's not adequate anymore, or it's not going to up the snuff for the life that you lead. Let me ask you a question, a question, how many times has your phone updated its software?

Todd Arkell  13:49

Too many times, like multiple times a year, right?

Dale Curd  13:54

But how many times do you think people get a chance to to rewrite or update their software?

Todd Arkell  14:01

Yeah, probably not, not lots. We kind of go through day to day and try to get through each day and each week without really thinking about it, right,

Dale Curd  14:11

with programming that really was designed to perform, you know, basic fundamental survival for a child, sure, that's really it, and it just never gets updated. And when I say updated, I mean the individual never goes in and go, Well, why is that like? I had a fear of strangers when I was six? How come I still feel anxious around strangers? Well, because you haven't gone back and you haven't figured out what that was about, and you haven't really updated it for the current life you live. And the same is true with imposter syndrome. So maybe that individual had some experiences when they were younger, and they said, Well, you know, I didn't really, I didn't quite fit in. Maybe I let the team down. I had this. Moment is that I'll always remember when I was 12 years old and I had a chance to for us to win, and I let the team down. And then that becomes the thing that sits on the factory floor that the ego says, Okay, well, we we must protect him from that ever happening again. So when he puts himself in these new situations, and there's the opportunity that he might be in a position where he could let people down. Let's create some doubt. Let's let's create a lot of doubt. Yeah, and that doubt is what imposter syndrome is really all about. And I think if you're going to come through this. One of the ways that I help clients come through this is to understand what the ego is looking for is it's looking for reassurance. It's looking for okay, can he do this? Can she do this? Does she belong in this new environment? Does she deserve this promotion based on what she's done more recently, so I help them see the reality of the situation that they're in, so that they can get a more up to date version of who they are.

Todd Arkell  16:11

Let's go back to when you pitch the gig for hello, goodbye, right? Did you have any of these feelings yourself, like, oh my god, I'm gonna be on television. And like, when you think about the idea, you go, when you see it in practice, it was like, Oh, that's really cool. But probably even just trying to get into doing that, like, kind of talk about what it was like for you at that time, whether you can, you think about how you felt about the process.

Dale Curd  16:36

If I was to go back, let's go back a couple of years before that briefly, which was life story project for the Oprah Winfrey Network. That was the first time that I really stepped in, if you will, to this idea of being a host and understanding what goes into producing a show, or even more, simply producing a good story. That was the first opportunity I had. I was really fortunate to work with one of my best friends on life story project, a man named Mitch gabrie, who's gone on to do a lot of other things, production wise and television wise, with his partner, his wife and partner, Andrea. That was the first time that I'd actually had to figure out how to take what I did say in a in a private therapy perspective, which was really about listening to people. That was the primary skill that I had to transport, if you will, into broadcast, was being able to listen to people hold space and ask questions that really took the conversation deeper, but also provided reassurance for the individual. Those were skills that I learned as a therapist when I when I was in active practice, Life Story project, I would say, yeah, definitely step that up 100 fold, because I was talking to complete strangers, you know, sometimes six, 810, a day. And having to learn those stories, having to talk to people cold while we were recording, I would get a little bit of a background I like, I might get the the basic structure of what the story was about. Like, you know, this is an individual who hasn't seen their sister in in 25 years, they had a falling out. That'd be about as much as I would get, sure. And then we would sit down, and I'd have to just start that show. We did, I think we did 10 episodes of that show, or 13 episodes of that show in 2013 that gave me the confidence, because I did so many of those interviews. Again, back to this reps, right? I did so many of those interviews, and it, by the way, and like an average interview was an hour, an hour and a half of which we used four minutes, crazy, exactly, right. This is the magic of production that you don't see. So I'm sitting there gaining hours and hours of experience talking to people cold and trusting myself that I could stay with the conversation ask the right questions. Know, the moments that were really important for that individual, that skill set two years later, when we first shot the first series for Hello Goodbye, really was the basis of my confidence. But now it was another huge jump, because now I'm not in a outdoor environment that was somewhat protected, like we didn't have people walking through the shot, all of that at life story is somewhat protective to Terminal One, terminal three, arrivals, departure. Sometimes we're standing right in the middle of a group of people. That was a completely different skill set, and I remember I had some great conversations. With the one of the directors of the original Dutch show, hello, goodbye. Is a international production that was licensed by the CBC, and I remember having conversations with him about his host, and his host, by that point, had done 11 seasons of the show, wow. And I asked him, I said, so how does he How does he concentrate in this kind of an environment? Because I didn't think I could do that like I really struggled in the beginning to focus with all the distraction that was going on. And he said, You have to create a bubble for yourself and for the individual you're speaking with, and you and you bring them into that bubble, so that they forget that they're running on an airport floor, and you forget you're on an airport floor. And that was the thing that I practiced over and over and over again, how to create that how to create that closeness, how to get them to focus on on the conversation we were having. But to your question, yeah, I mean, I think my first half of the first season of that show wasn't quite sure I belong there. I had to practice my way through each all of the doubt that my ego kept throwing up at me as an example. I got really good, I think, at doing the interviews, but then once in a while, they would have me do say pre recorded welcome for a corporate sponsor. And I remember doing this one, and they had this script that they wanted me to read, and it was on cue cards, very much like late night television, you know, where they're holding the cue card. And, man, I struggled with that. I'd like reading the cue card, looking at the camera being natural. 20 takes, I think, for what was, what what ended up, what ended up being like 15 seconds of t of television. Yeah, it just took me forever to in my mind, anyways, for ever to find the rhythm of that.

Todd Arkell  22:10

Sorry to interrupt, but it's kind of even like doing this show. Finding the rhythm in the interview feels okay with me, but then when I have to sit down and write an intro, and then voice over the intro for the production crew. I'm like, Oh, is this taking me four takes? Five take this is ridiculous, right? Like it just to make because I go, it doesn't seem natural to me to be able to communicate that way. I'm getting better at it, by the way. But yes, it does take reps, for sure, absolutely.

Dale Curd  22:41

And this is the thing, right? Like, life, I wish I had a t shirt that just said, Life take rep, like, to reframe our minds.

Todd Arkell  22:51

New sales opportunity, right?

Dale Curd  22:54

There you go. Life takes reps. That's really what it's all about. The brain is a is a muscle of sorts, and like every other muscle in the body, it takes reps to be able to change our understanding of ourselves, change our understanding of the world, rewrite the narratives. It takes reps to be able to do that the ego doesn't want that. The ego says for you to be safe. Todd, you should probably do all of that behind the scenes. Don't let anybody see you. Practice that or don't just try to get it in the can 1000 times before you ever let before you ever open this up to somebody seeing you that will have you have confidence, and that can be paralyzing. When the ego is that strong, it can be paralyzing for an individual. It can it can put them on plateaus, if you will, where they're where they stagnate and they don't grow well.

Todd Arkell  23:52

You know, it's interesting. When I first started this particular show, I had a friend of mine reach out to me and he goes, Oh, he goes, so amazing. I wish. I wish I had the had the ability to, like, be creative, like you, and I'm like, you do right? But it just doesn't feel like, Oh, I couldn't just do that. And I go, okay, so yes, I know I have some transferable skills to be able to do this. But honestly, I mean, I was approached by somebody going, Hey, that you know, that idea you're talking about, that be make a really good podcast. And I'm like, Yeah, okay, whatever. And it took me still six to seven months to start to wrap my brain around, okay, how would I do this? What would it do? You know, like, a whole lot of different things. So I'm sure the ego was on my factory floor telling me you can't do that. Or, you know, I and I knew somewhere inside go totally I can do this. I know just because of my background, I'm capable. But it was just trying to rationalize how to how to put it together.

Dale Curd  25:00

Other, exactly, and I could totally relate to what you're talking about, because that rationalization that you're talking about is the ego wrestling with doubt. Let's go back to the office manager and the factory floor, right? Let's say the office manager is there. He or she's got the perfect operation function. Factory floor is just humming along. Owner of the company comes along and says, Hey, by the way, I'm adding three other lines because you got because the factory floor is working so well, I'm going to boost the output by 15% well, that factory manager, if it's a normal factory manager, is going to throw up their hands and and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. Are you sure about that? And that is the doubt that the ego throws up, right? Are you sure Todd, that what you want to do is a podcast, yep? Are you sure, Dale, that what you want to do is a bunch of interviews with wonderful strangers, and you want to do, like, hundreds of those. Is that really what you want to do?

Todd Arkell  26:10

Yes, well, even more so when you're when your production company tells you it's a three year process to really build your brand, and you go, Wow, am I going to do this for three years? Now it's almost been a year and a half. So, you know, right? It goes by super fast, and so it is what it is

Matt Cundill  26:30

now, more the mental approach with Todd Arkell,

Todd Arkell  26:34

okay, so you're an athlete, you're sitting there and you're kind of having some of these doubts, we'll call it and reflection would things like visualization help them get some of those reps, because they might not get the reps in a game like what are some ways things, tools they can use to kind of help propel themselves through the process.

Dale Curd  26:57

The process of working through the doubt begins with understanding that the doubt is there because the ego wants reassurance. The trap is that it wants the reassurance first before it will let you engage in the task. We've got to work to flip that around. We've got to work to say, hey, look, here's what I'm going to do, here's my plan for developing that skill, or here's my plan for executing that new initiative. Here's my plan for fitting in in this new environment. So we've got to reassure the ego by taking action. But action that's got some direction to it. Here's how I'm actually going to get the reps. Maybe I'm going to on top of that now, maybe what I'm going to do is I'm going to remind myself with real evidence. I'm going to remind myself of how many reps I actually did, how many interviews am I actually going to do? Well, I'm going to set a target for myself. I'm going to do 20, the first 20 interviews, or I'm going to do the first in your case, might do the first five shows. I'm going to put five shows in the can, and then let's come back and see what we can with that evidence and see how we can rewrite that. Are you ready to do a podcast, yeah, doubt, and in my world, it began really with with sessions. I can remember the first therapy session that I did was an hour long session wiped me out for almost a day and a half, like just mentally wiped me out, because it took so much focus, so much presence, so much listening, that I was exhausted after one session. And I'm like, Well, okay, this is clearly not the profession for me. How am I going to survive on one session a day, right? No matter how good you are, right? I talked to a lot of other peers, and lo and behold, they went, Yeah, this, this is the learning curve. This is, this is what you expect. And so now, 22 years later, for me to for me to do 678, a day, it's tiring, but it's it doesn't take me out, because I know how to compartmentalize that attention, focus and presence. That's reps. Yeah, it's Malcolm. Malcolm Gladwell is 10,000 hours, you

Todd Arkell  29:29

know, saying that then, you know, if you're a young athlete like, would it? Would you think it would make sense for them to find a mentor, somebody who can help? Kind of you talked about sharing with your peers, like somebody they can talk to to help combat that? Well, you

Dale Curd  29:45

let me come back to your first question, because I realized I didn't really answer the first question. Yeah, I think, I think visualization is an important factor. It's an important part, let's say, of a new regimen. It's. Preparing yourself for growth. So visualizing who you want to be and what that moment is going to look like in the new in the near future or the even the somewhat distant future. Here's me standing at the plate. Here's me on the field. This is what I want it to feel like. This is how I want to feel in my body. This is how it's going to feel, taking the kick or taking the taking the pitch. I think that visualization method is super, super strong. The secret is that when it comes to neuroplasticity, and you know, the key message there is that neurons that fire together, wire together, and when it comes to visualization, the more precise and descriptive you are in your visualization, the mind doesn't know the brain doesn't know the difference. So that's the kind of practice right to spend. I always advise young athletes spend 1015, minutes of your day as a ritual, visualizing where you want to be. What does that moment actually look like? Right? That's a key part, for sure. This is where coaches and mentors that for a young athlete, I think, really come in are super beneficial to take the process of growth for the young athlete and to break it down into components that they can execute with repetition. I can't think of a game actually, that doesn't have this. Have have a breakdown of skills strategy. You know, there's the physical aspect, the mental aspect. There's so many different components, and a good coach, a good mentor for a young athlete, will break that down so that they acquire the repetition, which then builds the confidence, so that plan that breakdown. You know, great example. Our our daughter just finished up her first season Junior Varsity rowing. Now, what's significant, significant about that she was a recreational scholar right up until this year, 17 going into university. She'd done it for four or five years, purely on a recreational level, no races, no competition. She goes for the team, makes the team, and now the panic sets in, and so the coaches did a really good job breaking it down for her in terms of training regimen, stroke perfection, like stroke technique, race technique, race strategy, so that she could her mind could take on each component And then gain with that, gain in knowledge, gain in confidence. Yeah, most athletes, if they have great mentors and great coaches, that's the benefit of that.

Todd Arkell  32:51

I think that does make sense. I mean, just, I think just about in anything you know, chunking certainly does help make you feel a little little less overwhelmed, I think, from from from that perspective, most

Dale Curd  33:05

athletes, when I was a rugby player, when I was younger, we tend to stay in our comfort zone of what we think we're good at. Yeah, right, the skills, the skills that we think make us valuable to the team or make us excel in the sport, and we tend to shy away from the things that are hard for us or take a lot of work. But it's those skills, actually. It's when you take on something that's outside of your comfort zone, as if you're a tennis player and you've got the killer serve, but your backhand is weak. If you spend time on that backhand consistently, that's actually where you're going to that's actually where your mind is going to start storing up some confidence.

Todd Arkell  33:52

Yeah, I mean, they talk about in certain sports, it's like people always seem to want to practice what they're good at, but you should be practicing what you're not good at right?

Dale Curd  34:02

And the benefit of that is not just the uptick in skill development. The real benefit of that is in the individual's mental game, sure, right? Because the brain goes, Wait a second, you did have a killer serve, but now you've got a pretty strong backhand as well. Why don't we start focusing and now on on different shot selection. Like the mind loves. It's hungry, right? It wants new information to help you update who you, who you are. You just got to put that in front of it. Yeah.

Todd Arkell  34:33

I mean, that's funny. I've been trying to find a willing tennis player, so I'll just put that into the universe to talk to, because I do find, you know, that's a sport. I mean, I played it a little recreationally, whatever, nowhere, not very good. But you know what? Like, it is definitely a strategy game. There's a there's a lot going on mentally, like I got to know my opponent, because if I hit the ball there, they're going to be able to hit the ball here, and I'm vulnerable. Bowl and this, but like, and all of that happens in such a split second moment, right? It is, I don't believe it's, oh, I'm just going to hit the ball over the net. Okay, yeah, maybe if you're in a very tough spot, I just need to get the ball over the net. But typically, you're trying to set the other person up for an opportunity to play to your strengths. So if you're out there and you're a tennis player and you're listening, I'd love to have you to have you on the show to talk about a lot of that stuff and what goes into that, and whether that's coached or learned or those are things that I find when you watch certain sports you know nothing about, like high diving, I think you have to be mentally incompetent. Sorry, I'm just like, I look at heights, and I go, how are they diving from that? I can't even think about it, right? But how did they How did they get to that? Did they start? You know, I'm sure they started a lower height, but how did they get their mind wrapped around, I'm going to jump from 30 meters.

Dale Curd  35:57

Some of that, I think, is the next technique that I think is really important here for coming through, what we what we're talking about in terms of imposter syndrome, or let's just call it confidence lag, sure. Let's rename it confidence lag is exposure, and a kind of exposure ladder. So high divers, you're right. Don't start on a tower. Typically they start young. It's a middle, what I would call a middle entry sport. So it might be a youngster that has a foundation in gymnastics as a as a really young person like, you know, from three till about seven or eight, like so tumbling, so that there's already this, what I would call bodily kinesthetic intelligence. Now, some people have that naturally great book, by the way, multiple intelligences. Child psychologist by the name of Howard Gardner, identified, I think he's up to nine. Now, nine different levels of primary intelligence that individuals can be born with. Usually we excel at one. And athletes tend to have very high level of bodily kinesthetic intelligence. They just have this sense of where their body is in a physical and kind of a physical space. Gretzky is a great example of that. He just knew where he was in relation to everybody else, but he was also super connected to his body. Divers have that, and they get trained. You're right on a three meter board. They've got to get used to what it feels like to go from tumbling off the ground or tumbling off a ramp to tumbling off a board, every skill, and then you go from three to five to 10 meter, you're constantly kind of laddering up in exposure, sure, and that is a key lesson for an, I think, for for athlete. I remember playing softball when I was 12 and coming up like I'd been hitting all kinds of pitchers, and then I hit this that this kid shows up. I'm standing at bat and this, and this is softball. It's a wind up underarm, wind up pitch, and I heard it before I could actually swing, like it hissed. It hissed as it was coming through the air. And at 12 years old, I kind of froze like, what is this? Rather than be curious and then go back to my coach and say, hey, I want to, I want to try to hit faster and faster and faster pitches, my 12 year old mind went, No, no, no, no, let's, let's stay away from that. Let's, we'll just take the easy bunt, or we'll hope that he's his. His percentage of walk and strike is more in my favor. And it took me another five, six years to try to come back with a plan of I went to batting cages. I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna start at this speed work my way up. Let's see if I can hit something in the 6070, mile an hour range. Let's just see if I can hit it, make contact with it, but that laddering up of exposure is another key technique for helping an individual who's got confidence lag or imposter syndrome to build up the confidence through reps.

Todd Arkell  39:15

And for those who follow the Blue Jays, I mean, there's a, I'm not going to name check it. But there is a system that they use in the tunnel, the batting tunnel. There's a company that's devised this software, and most of the MLB teams have it, and you can project the picture you're going to face, and it can actually mimic that pitchers pitching arsenal. So you can actually go in and take reps against a hologram, we'll say, or whatever, coming out of a batting machine at the right speed and movement and everything else. It's like, incredible technology,

Dale Curd  39:50

but we know what we know what we know. They'll be updating that this year. They'll be, there'll be a Yamamoto Pro, correct, right?

Todd Arkell  39:56

You know. So it's like, it just, it goes on and on, but it's like. So cool. How you can go, Oh, I'm instead of just going and doing some soft toss or hitting off a tee or like, as typically guys would get, where maybe they hit off a machine, you know, the fans in the stands don't see the guy who's been told, Hey, you're, you're, you're gonna pinch hit in two innings. We think you're in now you can go down, you can actually try to hit off the guy you're gonna see. So that's, that's a whole nother level of getting reps. I guess going forward to kind of give yourself that, that that set, how do they discern between I've just got a healthy level of self criticism, or maybe I'm debilitating myself with these thoughts, like, where, where would they kind of say, hey, you know what? Maybe I need to talk to somebody about this. Because it's, it's, it's, it's causing me problems.

Dale Curd  40:52

I think the hallmark of that is that when they experience that doubt, when the ego, the office manager throws up that doubt. Hey, you know, are you sure you're really up for this? Are you we're not sure you can really do this? The hallmark there's a the crossroads, if you will, is for the person, for the person that that is paralyzing, for the ego says, let's stop trying. Let's come back to the comfort zone. Let's stay within, with within what we know about ourselves. Let's stay safe and so there's no curiosity. There's no no opportunity to explore something new. There isn't even an openness to try something different or to look at it differently. The individual is essentially in a fight, flight or freeze right state because the ego has triggered that. Ego has said, essentially, this is such a huge potential vulnerability that we're that we're in right now, that we're faced with that we need to protect ourselves. The other road, if you will, at that crossroad, is okay, I get it. We're not sure. We're not sure whether we're up for this. We're not sure whether we actually belong here. We're not sure whether we'll get this right. Let me be curious about how did somebody else do that? Or, let me be curious, what does what does it take to actually get there? What is it that I have to learn that's new for me? And how can I break that down the second road, the road that fewer people take without without support and guidance, is the road that starts with curiosity, to take the to take the doubt and to actually flip it from vigilance that's based on protecting to curiosity That's based on growing. That's the crossroads, yeah.

Todd Arkell  43:02

And I think, you know, it's interesting as you're talking and I'm just thinking to myself, think about me as a teenager, okay, if you needed to learn something, how did you do that? Well, maybe you went to the library, maybe there was a book or whatever. But it's like this, this, this device we all carry around and have kind of at our fingertips, right? Is, I think, could be a powerful tool as well, as much as I think it's can be a huge distraction for athletes, and can cause a lot of self doubt as well, because you're, you got a lot of comparison going on about, oh, that person's doing this, and I'm not doing that when you're a young teen. But, you know, I think you have an opportunity to actually use the device to go, oh, like you said, How did somebody else do this? What was their path? How did you know you can search so many different things? You know? I think it could be a tool for support as well. In some cases,

Dale Curd  43:57

there's so much information out there now and then, when you converge that with the ability of of some of some of the the current AI systems, the language models to if I start with curiosity, I can actually find my way through that. And even if I'm not willing to to type it into a phone or use a computer, I can find a mentor. I can find a coach who can help me break it down 100% but it has. I have to be willing at some level to acknowledge that there's doubt. Okay, office manager, you've got doubt totally understand. All right, let's be curious about, how do we shift this? You have to be willing to take that road versus the other road, which is okay, ego, you have doubt you're right. I'm not up for this. I don't belong here. The ego is not always right. And the reason the ego is not always right is that sometimes it can be. Be overly sensitive or hyper sensitive to threats. Sometimes it has, often rather it has an outdated version of ourselves. Go back to the phone, the very first iPhone I owned, the very first iPhone that I owned was a groundbreaking piece of technology, but it would absolutely default shut down if I tried to run what are now run on my current iPhone. It's not built for the reality of life today, and that is something we have to remember about the ego. The ego or the office manager is protecting something that was really true a long time ago, but it's not who we are today,

Todd Arkell  45:51

even with the teenager. I mean, you know, somebody might say they're listening and they're going, I'm not that old. I mean, you know, whatever, but yeah, things that happened to you when you were younger can probably play a very deep role into where you are right now.

Dale Curd  46:05

I'll take again. I'll take our 17 year old 1818, year old now and I have another child is 10 years old who played varsity rugby for Canadian University. I can tell you that the blocks that happened as a result of a kind of imposter syndrome. They have two different versions of it. One is a perfectionist. One just wants to be flawless, right? And if they're not flawless, then they fail. That's a different set. And one is kind of a natural genius, meaning, if something is hard for them, then it means they're not talented. If it doesn't come naturally and it's and it's challenging, well then they're going to try and steer away from it. I have two different personas in both my kids. And 128's and 118's and these were things that were baked in them when they were really young, one of them had a really hard time adjusting with other people because of the sort of a natural talent a lot of people, you know, it was difficult for them to fit in because they were so talented, especially academically, that it tended to push the group. Tend to push them to the side and so. So when they try new things, now, the primary mandate that the office manager inside their head is trying to is trying to protect for is being, is belonging to a group. But that's not who they are. I keep saying to in this case, our daughter, the goal for sure, belonging is really important. But when you get into the right group, when you're surrounded by other high, natural performers, that's when you'll understand what it really feels like. That's when you'll get to experience right what being in that environment is really all about. Don't take this group's perception of you and try to fit in here. If you're a major league player and you're in the minors, you don't try to fit into the minors. You know you're a major league player. For the perfectionist, it's really exposure. It's really just, you've got to make mistakes. If you fall down when you're learning to walk, that's how you learn to walk. Nobody gets up on their feet. No Child, no baby gets up on its feet and takes those first few steps and then starts to run.

Todd Arkell  48:28

No and actually funny, you say that I was my wife had asked me a question the other day. She goes, Oh, do you know what time you were born? I'm like, I have no clue, right? So anyways, I found an old baby book that my mother had made, and then I'm reading some of the comments. It goes, he rolled everywhere. He refused to walk, basically. And I was like, like, what was, what was that about? You know, I have no recollection. That was far too long ago, but I it's funny to read some of that stuff. I wasn't running. There's guaranteed I wasn't running. And I think it's, oh, he took two steps on his first birthday, or something like that, right? And I was just kind of laughing, because it seems so disconnected, right? Like from who you are, because it was so long ago, and you have no recollection of that. But obviously a lot of that stuff was programmed in an eight in, you know, kind of your development as as a young child, right? So I can see how that stuff sort of plays its

Dale Curd  49:25

Do you think that that early description of you? Do you just, do you think that lingered longer? Do you? Did you? Can you see, when you look back at your life that maybe there was a you needed? You needed exposure or reassurance?

Todd Arkell  49:40

Interesting question. I haven't before you tried back that where Todd gets diagnosed on there, you know, I think that I, you know, people would probably describe me and we'll go, I'll try to go. Would describe me as being, oh, I'm very outgoing. I'm, you know, I'm have a personality. All these other things, and those things are true, but I am very introverted in a lot of ways. So although I may be able to go into a crowded setting and have conversations with people I don't know and all those different things, I'm not saying it's forced, but it was. It's a learned skill, because I'm more comfortable if I'm just kind of observing at for you know what I mean, and sort of not leaning into it as much. So it's, it's kind of one of those, I sort of try to be self aware as about things. And people laugh. They go, Yeah, you're an introvert. I go, No, no, I'm quite happy to hang out with like one or two people that I know really well, like, in a more comfortable setting and be myself than be kind of in a larger group. So I think to that point, yeah, it takes a while for me to I kind of ease into things, I think some sometimes, as opposed to rushing into things,

Dale Curd  50:56

I think that's beautiful. And it's also sounds like that, what your what your office manager, your ego did was it decided for you that you can't, you can't control how people receive you. You can't, you can't control whether they let you into a circle, if you will. So your defense, your ego created some defense architecture, which is an extroverted personality. So now you get to control, you get to step in to a role and kind of to enroll, right? And that's a beautiful that's a beautiful example of how the ego works. And you know, it's called an extroverted personality, but the individual is actually an introvert. And how do you know that? Well, true extroverts feel nourished mentally when they're around other people, and somebody who has an extroverted personality, if they're on in quotation marks for a day, two days, they're exhausted, and what they want to do is they want to pull away, and they want to have some solo time, and they want to have some solitude, and they want to they want to distance themselves from people. That tells you that it's that the extroverted person, it's an extroverted personality. It's a piece of defense architecture to protect you from being vulnerable,

Todd Arkell  52:21

yeah, where people say my social battery is just drained right now, you know, it's like, yes, I've had enough of the world that I need to just go recharge and watch some Netflix or something, you know, like, what? What did I do in the weekend? It was a crappy day, and I go, you know, I think we'd been out, we'd done all these different things, and I literally just go, I'm just gonna go watch this series called Chad powers. It's six episodes, 30 minutes, it's about a little longer than a movie, and just kind of go, vanish for a while and escape into that might feel good.

Dale Curd  52:56

You reset yourself, and then you're ready to go back out again. What's a

Todd Arkell  52:59

small change here. I'm stumbling through my words now, as I'm realizing I'm exposing myself on on live, whatever we got here, live, medium, what is a small change somebody could make? You know, if they if they're kind of feeling this way, that just kind of help baby steps to help them deal with the situation.

Dale Curd  53:22

There's two really powerful reframes for somebody that's in this and then there's, I think there's a, I'll give you a practice, if you will, that I think helps. The first reframe is to, let's take the stigma out of it. If you've never felt like an imposter, you've stopped growing. So feeling like an imposter is a sign that at some some part of your life, you are growing. So let's take the stigma out of it. Okay? It's a confidence lag. It means your the reality of your life is further ahead than your ego's story of who you are. And so there's a confidence lag. The second reframe, similar to that is that doubt appears when results outpace identity, which is what I'm talking about. So you have doubt when you get that promotion, but your ego is still thinking you're the person who has to perform all the time. It doesn't recognize, oh, you performed. That's why you got the promotion. And that leads me to what I think is just a simple tool, and it's called, like an evidence ledger. So it's something you can do once a day, depending on on where you're at in that in that process of doubt, it is to write down what, what really happened. What were the conversations that that really happened? Not the interpreter? Interpretations meaning not did my What did my mind make them mean? Because human beings are meaning making machines. But what actually happened? And if you can write down, here's three things that actually happened that demonstrate I belong in the seat, or I belong on the team. I belong in this moment, or I belong in this group, or this is the role I was meant to have, if you can, if you can, nail down two to three of those every single day again, things that actually happened. Oh, this person came into my office and asked for my advice, or my or my leadership on this, this, this, the coach keeps on putting me in these situations, this group that I really respect, keep inviting me in what actually happens. Start tracking what really happens, and build up through, through tracking that building up an awareness that, oh, wait a second, I've got some catching my mind's got some catching up to do. It's got to catch up to where all this growth is happening.

Todd Arkell  56:15

I love it. I love it. Practical, easily usable. Goes along with my constantly telling kids, you got a journal. And they think it's just journaling for oh, well, but to make me a better this, I go no like just to get all the nonsense out of your head. Sometimes it just helps you level, set your day, right? Things don't always go well you can, why did this happen, or how did I feel about that, right? And then kind of let those feelings sort of go, you know, I think is important, and sometimes it and sometimes I like what you said, you know, we we assign meaning to things, or we assign, you know, sense out of whatever we interpret self interpret, you know, I get that sometimes, even with my kids. Well, you were yelling at me. No, I wasn't yelling at you. I was but you sounded annoyed. Okay, maybe I was annoyed, but you're taking, you know, you're taking offense to it, because you probably know in some level that I should have been annoyed based on the behavior, you know, like, so you fall into these patterns of relationships as well too, right? Which could be a whole nother episode. So let me ask you. So what advice would you give 16 year old Dale about the future?

Dale Curd  57:34

The best advice I could give him is you are much more than you think you are, and be curious about what that is, what that more looks like. You are much more than you think you are, and be curious about what that more looks like. The best advice I've ever been given would probably be along similar lines. It was came from a 17 year old that I was in a men's group with. He looked at me after me being in there for many, many nights, and he looked at me and he said, You're just afraid. You know what? We're all afraid to be here. So stop acting like you're not afraid. I was like, wow, okay,

Todd Arkell  58:31

that's pretty to the point, isn't it very direct. And I think it's, you know what? I think it's true. I mean, look at people are always concerned about admitting fragility, right? Like, I'm not, you know, like, and I look at different, you know, you draw it right to sports. I mean, hey, look at you come up in the big moment. And, you know, how do you respond to that? Do you melt away? Do you, you know? Do you admit, you know? I tell you, I think I posted something on my Instagram a while ago during the World Series. There was an interview they were Fox Sports was doing with Mookie Betts after they won. And they were talking about, oh, you know, you must like, you know, that ball got hit to you, you know, what were you feeling? And he was like, he goes, I tell you what I was like. So in the moment, I was thinking, Oh my God, I've never been here before. Like he was trying to lock himself into, you know, if the balls hit to me, like, you know, whatever. And he goes, and then it was just hit to me. And then obviously, there's muscle memory and all these other things that happen. And he makes the play, and he steps on the bag, and boom, double play, it's over. They win the World Series. But he was at least human enough to express that. He was maybe less than confident in that moment, right? And I think it's okay to say like, Hey, man, I was scared.

Dale Curd  59:57

And it also sounds like that there was a. There was this split his mind was in the meaning of being in the World Series, and the reality was his body and his and that body mind connection was in the reality of the balls getting hit to me, what do I do? And the second the latter part didn't have to think about what to do. It did based on repetition. It performed based on repetition. And he was, sounds like he was acute, acutely aware that I got to get out of what my mind is making this mean.

Todd Arkell  1:00:33

I think that's really an important, important point. I like that advice because, guess what, it's okay to be afraid. So recommend a book. What's a book somebody could read that will help them understand the world? You can even recommend your own book.

Dale Curd  1:00:47

I could it's good. It's definitely good for it's definitely good for daily reflections. If you're stuck on what to think about, you can read that every single day, and it'll give you something to think about so you can learn about yourself at a much deeper level, that's that's really what

Todd Arkell  1:01:02

it's about. And the title

Dale Curd  1:01:04

of that book is living lightly. Living lightly, co author with myself and my wife, but, and I would say that the other book, it's the first book I read, and it is my go to book. Is the road less traveled. Hmm. M Scott Peck, the first line of the book, Life is difficult when we cease, when we cease, right, life is difficult, and when we no longer resist that truth, it essentially becomes less difficult.

Todd Arkell  1:01:40

Dale, I love the conversation. I appreciate you taking the time we'll talk soon.

Dale Curd  1:01:46

Thank you, Todd. I really appreciate the opportunity to have a chat with you.

Matt Cundill  1:01:50

Thanks for listening for more, including resources and more about the show. Go to the mental approach.com. You.