Everything You Need To Know About Dynamic Audio Insertion

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  00:02

Welcome to The Podcast Superfriends. Five podcast producers from across North America get together to discuss podcasting.

Catherine O'Brien  00:13

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Podcast Superfriends. You know that meme with Andy Dwyer where he's standing there, and he's looking a little sheepish, and he's saying... something I should know. And I'm too afraid to ask at this point. Well, today if you are a podcaster, and you've heard the term dynamic ad insertion popped around, people are talking about it. People are asking you about monetization and you're not exactly sure what to do. You wish you knew a little bit more. This is the Podcast Superfriends episode for you. My name is Catherine O'Brien. I'm a podcaster based in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. You can follow me on X, I guess, @HelloCatherineO. Let's go around and meet the other Podcast Superfriends, starting up in the Great White North, Matt.

Matt Cundill  00:56

Matt Cundill, Winnipeg, Manitoba. The Sound Off Podcast Network,

Catherine O'Brien  01:00

Johnny.

Johnny Podcasts  01:01

Hi, I'm Johnny Podcasts from Fort Worth, Texas, and I'm excited to dive into everything DAI.

Catherine O'Brien  01:07

David.

David Yas  01:08

Yeah, it's Dave in Boston. First time caller. David Yas. The Boston Podcast Network, producing podcasts here up in Boston, Pod617.com.

Catherine O'Brien  01:18

And if you are a regular Podcast Superfriend watcher slash listener and you're thinking hmm, the Podcast Superfriends just don't seem as super as they normally do. We're expecting our fifth compadre, JAG in Detroit to be joining us at any moment. But we're not going to let that stop us. We're going to get started talking about dynamic ad insertion right now. So let's just- before we get really diving into this, let's just take a sort of a temperature of the group here. How excited are we to talk about dynamic ad insertion? How important do we think it is? Let's just go around really briefly. And Johnny, we'll start with you, how- what's your read on DAI?

Johnny Podcasts  01:52

I'm visibly shaking with excitement, because I love it so much. I mean, I use DAI a lot with my clients, I think it's something that a lot more podcasters should be taking advantage of. Even if you're not at a monetization level, we will certainly will talk about the monetizing side of things. But DAI is something that you can utilize, even if you have five listeners, and I'm really excited to chat about that side of it.

David Yas  02:17

I, up until recently have been just sort of frustrated by it, because I do use it with some of my clients. The reason I'm frustrated as it does take some time, we'll get into this but to get used to technically, because if you set up spots for your ads in podcasts past, and then you go to insert an ad, and some of your episodes have like two spots, and then others don't, it can be a little bit of a headache, it can give me like that ice cream headache, like I don't even want to think about this anymore. However, picking up on what Johnny said, it's much bigger than ads. It is immediacy, it's frequency, it is potentially even freaking out your listeners in a good way, telling them something that just happened like the day before. And it's like, how did they do that? This podcast was posted in February. So I'm excited to talk about all the ways to use it.

Catherine O'Brien  02:17

What about you, David? And Matt.

Matt Cundill  03:06

in terms of being excited to talk about it, probably about a two or three because I find it very difficult to explain to anybody who's never heard-

Johnny Podcasts  03:14

Is that outta 10?

Matt Cundill  03:15

Yeah, two out of 10 to explain it. But in terms of using it, it's like 10 out of 10 every time. I absolutely love using- and I call it dynamic audio insertion because it's not just ads that you can throw in there. So I'm excited too. I guess I'm a little more excited to talk about it than I'm letting on.

Johnny Podcasts  03:32

You get to flex your muscles here, Matt. Matt is our resident expert when it comes to DAI. We're often just coming to Matt to ask him these kinds of questions.

Catherine O'Brien  03:41

And, as promised, sweeping in from Detroit is Jon Gay. Hey, Jon.

Jon Gay  03:46

Hello, hello, good setup for today's conversation. Thank you for the applause.

Catherine O'Brien  03:50

And just- we're going around really quickly and just saying how important do you think dynamic audio insertion is? How- what's your readout just sort of generally on it?

Jon Gay  03:59

I think it's really where things are going. I have a number of clients that want to promote certain things in a limited time window. It doesn't have to be a commercial. I think that's the misnomer, it can certainly be motion for you something you have going on. So you can tell your audience about, that's airing for a set number of days or weeks. And you can put it in your podcast and I love the idea. It's- it's really an advantage that you can leverage if it's done correctly, which we will defer to Matt.

Catherine O'Brien  04:23

And I'll just say for myself, I have definitely been slow on the DAI train, because I work with podcasts that are more niche and their audiences that they've got are really great dedicated people who are listening to, but the numbers where DAI starts making sense is kind of not where most of my clients are. So I have been a little bit not picking up on it as fast as I could. I've seen monet- other monetization options being far more suitable for the types of clients that I work with. But Matt, you have me already rethinking things, because I always say dynamic ad insertion but in reality, this is a an audio message that we're putting in there. And that could be anything.

Matt Cundill  05:03

Yeah, so I guess I'll just kick off some of the ideas. If you're launching a podcast, there's obviously- you don't have a lot of episodes. But you can still use dynamic audio insertion at the beginning. I guess the first message you could probably have is, Hey, welcome to the podcast. Before we get started, why don't you just hit the follow or subscribe button on your podcast app? A quick call to action right out of the gate. Now I know some people who would you know, suggest maybe rate and review the podcast. And then as JAG has pointed out many times before, that's such a no, no, because we haven't listened to anything. So why would we do that? However, hey, you know what, why not do that at the very end of the show? You can put a little dynamic audio at the end of the show and just say, Hey, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show, why don't you rate and review the show?

Johnny Podcasts  05:45

I had a conversation about DAI with a client yesterday. And it was something that I recommended to them because they wanted to do a few different kind of metrics that they wanted to measure, in terms of engagement and things like that, and sort of the conclusion that we came to was to run- and this is something that can apply to any podcaster, anywhere- it was three 30 day campaigns. So we're going to do pre roll ads for 30 days for three consecutive months. The first one would be pointing them to not just their website, that's where we started, I was like, oh, let's just point them to the website. And then as we dug through that idea a little bit more, that fleshed out into Okay, but why? Why are we sending them to the website? And then we decided, okay, let's point them to a specific article that they may actually get value out of. So if you're writing content online, or doing something else outside of the podcast that you think your listeners might get value out of, that's sort of one campaign you can run. And then what you can do is, you can add links into your show notes to that and say, hey, just click the link in the show notes. And you can use a bitly link, which allows you to track how many people actually clicked. And then you can measure the success of that campaign. The second one we went to, which I'll just touch on lightly, and we can kind of come back into later and dive deeper on, is an audience survey. Something that I found is super helpful to actually find out who your audience is, is doing just a free Google Form survey of where do you live? Who are you? How'd you find the podcast? What's your favorite thing about the podcast? Put that link in your show notes, another DAI audio, you can drop right into the top of your podcast, and get your best listeners, or your most dedicated listeners are going to fill something out like that so you can get better audience insights. And then the last one that we came up with was subscribe, follow the show and try and build that base a little bit. And then you can value after three months. Okay, which of these performed the best, do these perform at all?

Jon Gay  07:28

ABC testing.

Catherine O'Brien  07:29

Yeah, ABC. Yeah. And before we go too much further, let's- let's talk specifically about what this is, because we're talking to people who either make podcasts or listen to podcasts, the podcast is itself an audio product, right. And the whole purpose of the dynamic keyword audio insertion is that this is a piece of audio that can be added after the fact it can be put in among the inserted- well, we'll get into technically either before mid roll or afterwards. And Matt, why don't you go ahead and start helping me out here with some of the technicalities, so people exactly understand what a DAI is.

Matt Cundill  08:08

Thinking of it as dynamic audio insertion, it's a piece of audio that can go in, just, into all your episodes. So if you've got a lot of episodes, let's say 300 of them, and you want to deliver a specific message, but people are going back and listening to episode 2, 4, or 10, you can make it so that that message, whether it's an ad message, or a call to action that you want, is going to be able to air in one of those old episodes and can air you know, straight across all of your, your episodes. So I sort of think of it as renting instead of just owning. So if let's say you have an ad, and somebody wants to buy an ad on your show, and they you put it in episode 10, then they stop paying you at some point. And then you have another ad that comes on, you know, another- another client. You can actually just- if you had them in running through DAI, they're really just renting the spot. But if you bake the ad in, and it's there forever, can you imagine having to go back through all your old episodes and take them out physically and then replace that other ad in there? What is the job of a podcaster and your relationship with the advertiser? You really want to make their cash register ring. So this is really just a way to to make sure that the message is delivered clear across all of your episodes.

Jon Gay  09:15

I can give an example here, which is one of my clients is the National Bone Marrow Transplant link and they provide resources for those who've been through a bone marrow transplant. Every month they do a lunch and learn where they have a doctor or a caregiver of some kind doing a presentation. So we have 80 or so episodes of this podcast over 10 seasons. And every month we just change out the dynamically inserted ad from the beginning of the show. Hey, check out this month's lunch and learn, it's gonna be August 15 at noon Eastern it's about X. That runs through August 15. And then August 16 starts check out our September lunch and learn, it goes- and so on and so forth, without to Matt's point having to go through the nightmare of doing production on all 90 episodes all over again to that rented space point you made earlier Matt.

Johnny Podcasts  09:57

JAG, do those automatically expire? Or is that something that you kind of have to set in your calendar, August 15, I'm going in there and replacing the ads.

Jon Gay  10:06

I can't speak to other hosts, Johnny. But for Simplecast, which I use, you set up the campaign to a start date and an end date. You can even put an impression limit on it, say, an advertiser paid for 1000 impressions. But I can go back and say, Alright, well, the month expired, I can go back and look and say, All right, well, you got 750 impressions this month. 750 people heard this piece of audio, when listening to the podcast.

Johnny Podcasts  10:30

Back to the sold ads parts that Matt was talking about, for- specifically for monetized podcasts, I can hear someone that's listening to this, just screaming. But I've heard on my favorite podcast, I hate that they started doing dynamic audio insertion. I hear my favorite host whose voice I love hearing 24/7. And then I hear some random person recording in their bathroom. And it's way louder than the actual audio that I'm used to. It's totally different. It's got shit background music. You don't have to do that. There are services that do voiceover options, Matt actually is a stellar voiceover artist, I'd recommend going to him. But you can do all of these ads yourself, you don't have to worry about compromising the production quality of your podcast. And you can still have DAI as part of your production process as well.

Catherine O'Brien  11:12

And I know Johnny, you've written about the sort of the love hate relationship with DAI. Let's talk about that in a minute. But before we get there, how many of you are using- who are using DAI, are you doing it through your your regular podcast hosting company?

Matt Cundill  11:27

Yes.

Catherine O'Brien  11:28

Yes. Okay. Anybody doing something with a third party, is that even an option? Yes, yes, it is.

Matt Cundill  11:34

Yes. Yeah, I think at one point, there were some companies that were doing this, but it began to become sort of, you know, commonplace for podcast hosts to include an option for DAI. But when you get knee deep into the programmatic side, and programmatic is just- those are the ads that just sort of pop in, you know, out of nowhere, this isn't something that maybe you set up, but those programmatic ads, you know, from the Spotify network, they could come from- come from iHeart, or whatever deal that you set up advertised cast, if you're associated with Libsyn, you can actually have additional parties come and add in with something called Vast. And I have to reach deep down into the Brian Barletta, Sounds Profitable, technical description of the whole thing. And this is the way he described it, is that it's a way to allow one ad server to call another ad server. And it can be used in place of individual ad audio files for a campaign, or as a way to connect to external ad buyers. So it is possible to include, you know, people to to get in on the ad action in the programmatic side.

Catherine O'Brien  12:35

Well, because I'll tell you my personal experience as listening to podcast, most of the podcasts that I listened to regularly don't do their own dynamic ad insertion. And the way I know this is like, let's say I was just visiting Florida not too long ago, I downloaded podcasts, and I'm getting all these ads for Bubba's Pensacola Ford dealership, and it's like, okay, well, that's awesome. I don't live in Pensacola. But I know that's because I was picking up the ads from me being in Florida. There was some sort of geographic tag or something that was happening along those lines. And it wasn't just from my favorite podcaster. Does that make sense? So there were some other- somebody- somebody was using the Vast- I didn't know that- to call it that. But that's what was going on to get that ad.

Matt Cundill  13:17

Yeah, absolutely. By the way, and a little bit different than you know, if we want to use it ourselves. And I think- I think for the people that we deal with, creating your own dynamic audio for your podcast is really the best way to go. And programmatic if it comes up, you know, it's not a lot of money. But it's also a great way to collect some money as well.

Catherine O'Brien  13:34

We'll talk about the money in a second. I don't want to leave Johnny. So Johnny, tell us a little bit about the love hate. You introduced a little bit with the- just the different audio quality and the different voices and everything else. Are there any other things we should be considering before we take on this adventure?

Johnny Podcasts  13:47

That's kind of the meat of it. It's just to- if someone were watching this and saying, I don't want someone else doing the ads, it is something that you can handle yourself. It's also a great time saver, is kind of the alternative argument. I don't want to have to record 15 different ads for 15 different sponsors. That can be provided for you as well, as you do kind of give up some of the production quality that will go into your podcast because it's dynamic, you don't really get that piece of audio, although maybe you do, Matt, I'm not totally sure,

Matt Cundill  14:17

I will admit to failing. And I don't mind walking you through my show the Soundoff Podcast, because this is what it looks like. And it's really a good visual. So the green lines that you see, those are where dynamic audio goes. So on the left, and this is a terrible listening experience. So everybody has to run to YouTube or the Facebook to to go and do this. But the green line is the pre roll. And then you'll see where I said thanks. That's a part of the show, where you know, the intro music runs out and I'm gonna thank people. I want to thank anybody who donated to the show, who retweeted, who I met who is supporting the show in any capacity, and it runs through all the old shows in the back catalogue. So no matter when anybody listens to the show, everybody gets- everybody will be able to hear the current thank yous that I'm offering up. And I will totally admit Johnny, that my production person, and my studio and my recording, sometimes that audio doesn't match up. It is just sonically not perfect, it is close. But sometimes I just- I think people are going to be able to recognize and realize that that thank you was recorded separately and outside of other recordings.

David Yas  15:23

Do you include a transition sound before and after the audio inserting?

Matt Cundill  15:28

Yes.

David Yas  15:28

Okay, because that's one thing I worry about that it's just- it's gonna sound halting.

Matt Cundill  15:32

Where I say thank you, I tried to make that seamless. Again, this part of the great experimentation. But generally, I know there's two mid rolls in the middle, and there's going to be a mu- I use a music trail out. And then the mid rolls will come in, they are host read, I read them, but they are still dynamically inserted. And then I will use a piece of audio to go back to the show, as it were.

Jon Gay  15:53

To further David's point, though, you can't fade the music bed under under dynamic- Yeah, they're they're going to be separate entities, you can't mix them together as if you were transitioning on a radio station. And what I have found with dynamic ads I've used, I have to put a gap in the audio if I'm using a mid roll of about point eight seconds or so, give or take, that will prevent anything from stepping on itself.

Matt Cundill  16:16

I'm just answering the question that popped up from Alan, are those insert points in the same spot in every episode? Or can they be different for every episode? So Alan, the pre roll in the post roll are hardwired in, and then I will have to go in and insert the other ones in the middle.

Jon Gay  16:32

Alan also had another question earlier that I wanted- that you pulled up, Matt. I'm already 200 episodes into my podcast, so I can't do this. I would tend to argue you can. If you're doing pre rolls or post rolls, you can. Mid rolls, yeah, you've got to go and set the marker in the audio. But it's not going to be any production to add a pre roll or a post roll to previous episodes.

Johnny Podcasts  16:52

I wanted to address that too, JAG, so thank you for bringing that up. People are listening to your old episodes, Alan. If people only listen to your new ones, what's- what's the point of having a catalogue of 200 episodes? Someone is always going to be finding your new podcast, and they're going to scroll back, if it's a guest based podcast, they'll go, I'm not super interested in the one that you put out yesterday, but I'm gonna scroll back 15 or 20- Oh, I know that name. That sounds really interesting. I'm gonna listen to that, oh, there's that pre roll that says oh, you should join my Discord channel and you can learn more about blah, blah, blah, whatever it's going to be. So I actually would make the argument that if you were starting a new podcast, you're starting with zero listeners that are gonna hear your DAI. But you have a whole catalogue of episodes with a built in audience, that's the perfect place to start putting it.

David Yas  17:32

I don't know what the industry standard is, but I know in looking at most of the podcasts I produced, it seems like on a on a weekly sort of regular basis, the number of people that click on the most current episode represent about maybe two thirds of the people who are clicking on any episode of the show. So that means there's a third of people- and this is just anecdotal. Maybe somebody knows what the industry standard is. But just picking up on what you said, there's a lot of power in those 200 episodes that you could marshal.

Catherine O'Brien  17:58

And congratulations, Alan, for not only having 200 episodes, but having apparently a sponsor. You're saying that Fried's in your previous 200 episodes, and that's great. Maybe Alan doesn't want to double dip like some other people might, but good for you for doing that.

Johnny Podcasts  18:10

Very audience conscious, Alan.

Catherine O'Brien  18:12

Very audience conscious.

Matt Cundill  18:13

By the way, if- as long as that sponsor keeps paying, leave him in there, the minute the sponsor stops paying, you can either go back and take them out manually. But I know for instance, on ART19, you can actually just color it in and stale date it, and change it that way. And there are a few- I think Omny does that as well. You can go in and stale date it.

Catherine O'Brien  18:32

But leaving Allen's specific show, could he go from here on out with a dynamic- can you select for the episodes, like from Episode 201 out?

Johnny Podcasts  18:42

Absolutely.

David Yas  18:42

Of course you can. Yeah.

Johnny Podcasts  18:44

Matt, I have some kind of a business question. Like the ad seller side of this that's buying into doing DAI. So on some of the podcasts that I listen to, specifically on Spotify, so if it's a really big podcast, they'll have a deal where the actual artwork will change, there'll be a new time scrubber, that all changes. So if there's a 45 minute kind of line, like continuing line where you can jump to different parts of the episode, that will shift and it'll jump to the Hilton Hotel ad. I'm able to manually just take my finger and scrub directly through it all the way to the end, and it goes back to the podcast. Are companies aware that that's possible? Do they take that into account? How many people are doing that? Do you have any insight on on that side of it? Because it seems like it wouldn't be worth the company's time to spend money doing DAI if the majority of people just say, Oh, God, it's an ad, and then just scrub right through and they don't hear anything?

Matt Cundill  19:35

Yeah, I mean, who skips through? So this was actually a study that was done by Sounds Profitable. And Tom Webster, I think he showed- for those of us who went to Podcast Movement last year, I think a couple of us were in the room when they- when they had this discussion. So versus like the host read ad, where I think they used Jordan Harbinger to come on and talk about Athletic Greens. And the retention that was kept in there was like over 85%. So how much was the programmatic when they did it? It was was lower by 10%. But still very worthwhile. It's 75%. That's higher than a lot of other media out there.

Johnny Podcasts  20:06

Okay, so businesses listening. Yeah, I'm the 1%. I'm the one scrubbing through. Yeah.

Catherine O'Brien  20:14

Matt, we know that you- you have a clip that from Heather Osgood from True Native Media and she's got some really great insights about advertising and monetizing for podcasts. You want to play that for us now?

Matt Cundill  20:25

Yeah, I really thought it'd be helpful for somebody like, like I know, Alan's watching. A lot of people are thinking now is my podcast good? Should I be doing you know, DAI with it? And I thought Heather did a really good job on my show to to answer this question.

Heather Osgood  20:37

So obviously, if you're producing a show that super timely, like a news podcast, or maybe a sports commentary podcast, anything that's really timely, like, if the content is only relevant to me today, then dynamic ad insertion really is not the best way to go. But if you're creating content that is very evergreen, then it doesn't really matter. For instance, this morning, I- on my walk, it was a podcast episode from 2016. I didn't care that it was produced in 2016, because I felt like the topics that they were discussing were just as relevant to me today as they were four years ago. So if you've got a podcast with really evergreen content, then dynamic ad insertion is good for you. If you have a podcast where the content isn't evergreen, and really, you see that most of your downloads are happening in a really short window, which I would say would probably be like a 30 to 60 day window, then dynamic ad insertion probably isn't as good for you.

Matt Cundill  21:36

Makes sense.

Catherine O'Brien  21:37

That's- I mean, to me, that seems like the most convincing argument for doing DAI, is that podcasts have legs. But we all have had the experience where people are listening to the podcast way back to Episode One. So it's nice to be able to bring them something current and fresh for that listener, regardless of when the podcast was recorded.

David Yas  21:56

I would just challenge people to ask whether your podcast is truly evergreen or not evergreen, because I think most are. If the podcast is good, and it's dispense- either dispensing good advice, or providing good entertainment. This is what is beautiful about podcasts. And why most of us say, you know, if our first few episodes are terrible, many podcasters say that. Don't go back and listen to episodes one through five, because I didn't know what I was doing. But that people will find you on episode, you know, 50, but then they will go back and they'll listen to one from a month ago, from maybe even a year ago. And so that's why DAI is- makes so much sense for this, for this particular medium. I think.

Catherine O'Brien  22:37

I have a quick question. So since most people are thinking of audio insertion as a monetization means, and we're also talking about it as a just a messaging tool, what are the options? Like when I was looking in the interior of Libsyn it was framing it as an advertising tool or a monetization tool. Are these things that you're expending money on? And how much- can you give us a sort of an idea about what are some of the expenses that are involved in doing this? Not necessarily just Matt's delightful voice on a- on a voiceover, but just the-

Johnny Podcasts  23:09

Why don't the rest of us pepper in what we think we know. And then Matt can jump in.

Matt Cundill  23:13

I don't even want to tell you- I'll tell you- I'll tell you what I pay. I mean, I have a it's a network, right. So I have to pay a network rate on two places. One of them is ART19. And then the other one is on- is on Megaphone. ART19, it's really where you put in just you know the stuff that you're selling. That's where- the podcasts where you're just selling the stuff that you have and promoting your newsletters with DAI and you know, other wares that you might have. And then Megaphone has more of the ads. And I don't want to undersell ART19 because they do have an Amazon, they are selling through it with ads themselves. So, but Megaphone as well. It's the same thing. So that that price is- I pay the network price for that.

Johnny Podcasts  23:52

Can you clarify that a little bit more? I'm confused. So you're paying money to sell ads on other podcasts that you have, or you're paying for just this access to use dynamic audio insertion?

Matt Cundill  24:04

Yeah, exactly the latter. Access to use dynamic audio insertion.

Johnny Podcasts  24:08

Okay, because I'm on Megaphone for a couple of my clients, but I'm not handling the billing side of things. So I'm not technically- I'm not totally familiar with it, and we're mostly just using it for self promotion on our own podcast. So we get- we're not working with outside providers. Damn stamps.

Matt Cundill  24:23

By the way, that sa- that same spot you see inside that you dynamically insert, my stuff is going to run in there. But let's say I only want Canadians to hear the message. It will be replaced by a programmatic ad in the States. So the same spot is- is, I'm billing twice for it. So if I have a Canadian only advertiser, that's mine that's paying me money. I can put a midroll in there. Now this is the argument for US stamps. I mean, DAI exists because people in Canada and Australia had to listen to stamps.com. Buy your stamps at stamps.com. Well, I'm Canadian. I don't need those. Nobody in Australia needs to buy stamps.com. That's- that's why this exists.  Blame stamps.com. Stamps.com built this podcasting world here in the United States, so you just better- you can enjoy- you can just listen through to one of those, Matt. JAG, what about you?

Jon Gay  24:30

So with Simplecasts, and I actually you had a conversation with them at Podcast Movement last year, and I started getting enough clients where it made more sense for me to create my own network within Simplecasts posting, managing individual shows. And they gave me a flat rate for the network, which included access to the DAI much like Matt was saying. My suspicion, and I have no inside information on this, my suspicion as as DAI continues to grow in the space, I think it's gonna become more accessible on most plans with most hosts. And it won't be a premium level to get to it. I see that coming in this year or so I would imagine.

Johnny Podcasts  25:49

Yeah, it'll become a standard feature within any podcast host.

Catherine O'Brien  25:53

I would love to see that. Because, you know, again, when I was looking previously on the Libsyn, it was that you had to have 10,000 downloads per episode again, just as a monetization type of tool, and- which I think has grown from, they used to have it as the threshold was 5000 downloads per episode. And I was just like, that- for most podcasts, that's not- you're not in that realm.

Johnny Podcasts  26:16

Especially on Libsyn. Libsyn is like the starter podcast network that you're starting on, like, there's probably eight podcasts on Lipson that have 10,000 downloads an episode that are taking advantage.

Catherine O'Brien  26:26

Wow.

Jon Gay  26:27

Johnny's givin' me some side eye.

Catherine O'Brien  26:29

Yes, Johnny's feeling spicy.

Matt Cundill  26:31

I want to- I have to meet Rob Walsh in a month.

Catherine O'Brien  26:36

Yeah. Wow. That was Johnny-

Johnny Podcasts  26:40

Johnny Podcasts, I said it.

Catherine O'Brien  26:43

Yeah. Okay. All right. So okay, so I'm- Do you- I don't quite feel like we satisfied the how much it cost. But it sounds like it's- you're paying network prices for your hosting to be able to access this. That's what I'm taking away from this. Yes. Right.

Matt Cundill  26:59

Yeah. To one of them. I'm paying 250 a month.

Jon Gay  27:02

That's what I'm paying to Simplecast.

Johnny Podcasts  27:04

Okay, I have a- I have a client on Cohost, which is a newer platform, and I believe it's 80 bucks a month to use them. And the DAI just comes as a built in feature. Yep. There you go, Alan.

Catherine O'Brien  27:15

Wow, Alan, with the Cohost, very good. 200 episodes, sponsor read ads. And he's on Cohost, which was just mentioned, good job.

Jon Gay  27:22

He's our sixth co host today. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  27:23

JAG, would you entertain the idea of taking your podcasters, asking them to produce a promo. And then at the end of all the podcasts that you are working with run a promo in the post roll position? That would make it a network.

Jon Gay  27:39

Yeah, it would, I think it would be a matter of which shows would work with other shows, I think that's a conversation to have, where we potentially ask the different shows and clients and hosts. But to your point, Matt, the best place to fish is where the fish are, the best place to find podcast listeners is by promoting and advertising in other podcasts, you're not asking somebody to close out of Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or YouTwitFace to open up Apple or Spotify and change apps on their phone, which is a bigger hurdle than you might think. Because these algorithms are all trying to keep you within the app that you're in. Threads or whatever it is, if somebody's already listening in Apple, Spotify or R.I.P. Stitcher, any of those, it's much easier to get them interested in other podcasts if the app is already open. So there's something to that.

Matt Cundill  28:24

Here's the crazy idea. And by the way, this is- this is our last episode that we did for the Podcast Superfriends. So there's a pre roll at the beginning. And then you- there's three midroll spots, just again, because I'm trying it out, it's probably one too many. But that's my ego in the way.

Johnny Podcasts  28:41

We did not approve of there being five ads in this podcast. So listeners, I want to direct the line of fire pointed at Matt, he chose five.

Matt Cundill  28:51

But the post roll at the end is a cross promo. And another show is gonna wind up being promoted in there. So if you're a podcaster, and you're sitting right now, and you've got the opportunity to have some dynamic audio insertion, this is a great opportunity for a promo swap. So find a podcaster who's who has a show kinda like yours, and just put their show at the end. And then they on the other hand will put your show as a promo at the end. And now you've got a promo swap going. It's a great way to do it.

Jon Gay  29:21

This is something that I had to learn coming from the radio world into podcasting, where in the radio world it was everybody's fighting for the same shrinking pie. And if they're not listening to you, they're listening your competition. Podcasting is much more the rising tide lifts all boats mindset, where it's not a finite amount of pie that you're fighting for. It's really a matter of, hey, if you like this show, you might like this. And it's almost like a gateway drug to other podcasts. So I think podcasting is much more cooperative. So don't be afraid to engage in a promo swap with somebody. You're not going to lose listeners by getting them into another show.

Johnny Podcasts  29:54

Unless your show is exactly the s- Like, you will understand if your show is like too much the same.

Jon Gay  30:00

If you're covering the same current events or something like that.

Johnny Podcasts  30:03

Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you're if you're listening to the same like, you know, left leaning news podcast and it's like covering the same thing every single day, they're both an hour long, you're both witty, like that kind of deal, that could be-

Jon Gay  30:15

Love to see a left and a right wing podcast do a promo swap. That'd create some-

Johnny Podcasts  30:19

That would be hilarious.

Catherine O'Brien  30:21

Community. Community building. So alright, well, we've talked about some of the technical sides. We've talked about the money to do these types of ads. Let's just take a break right now. And we're going to hear some dynamic audio insertion right here on our own show.

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  30:40

The Podcast Superfriends support podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. Find the full list at newpodcastapps.com.

Matt Cundill  30:51

I hope everybody enjoyed it. I wonder what everybody got to hear.

Catherine O'Brien  30:54

Wow, that was great, you guys. Excellent example of what we're talking about. Yeah.

Jon Gay  30:58

And we're back.

Catherine O'Brien  31:00

Thanks for joining us again. Okay. Now, let's switch the the money side around the other way. We were talking about before, most of our clients and the podcasts that we're working with, it sounds like that we are using the dynamic audio insertion as a messaging tool. Correct? Again, Johnny, your- your examples were a little bit more intangible. They're not direct dollars. They're not straight ads. But let's talk about like the money coming in from doing these. Do we have any good examples for people to understand that process?

Matt Cundill  31:30

Sign up for the newsletter is my favorite one. Because I mean, you need people to sign up for this thing, especially for those of us in Canada who are going through a little bit of throttling as it were with Bill C18. You don't have your social media, social media is an algorithm that you don't control. You don't control Facebook, but you do control your newsletter. So if you need to build your newsletter list, why don't you just ask people to sign up for it and make sure that there's a link in the show notes? That's usually one of the first and easy ways to get people to do it, it could also be to go to the website, Patreon is a big one. So for those who do work with Patreon or have forms of donation, this is a great place to just stop and talk to your listener and engage with them. What does $25 get you? What does $50 get you? You're creating your own mid rolls. And this is where you sell yourself. At one point, when I first started my podcast, I asked people to use my voiceover service, I didn't get a lot of business from it. But over time, there were some other business ideas that did come up that helped me to grow my business, you'll- you'll find out what it is. I do work with some clients who will sell directly their courses, some people will sell yoga tights that they're making out of their basement. So I think it's- if you're a podcaster, and you do have this mid roll ability, why don't you take a look around- could also be in the pre roll. Hey, just before we start the show, I'm going to ask you to do something, make sure it's not rate and review because we don't like that. But- But yeah, maybe there is a call to action. And I think one of my favorite ones that is going on right now is I'm taking a break for the summer. But I'm going to be back on September 5 with a brand new episode. And then stick to that date. Using the ability to set the time. And then live events. You know, you can target that message right into a particular market. Hey, Boston, join me, I'm getting together with Pod617. And we're going to be doing an event at wherever- well, David's house of course.

Catherine O'Brien  33:18

I was actually going to ask David because David, you've got a great network. You've got that going and you have a locale, a geography, that's tied to your most of your shows there. So do you- what are some of the ideas that you have for the DAI amongst your existing clients?

David Yas  33:34

Well, a couple of them have already been brought up. But yeah, anything local, I actually produce a series of sports podcasts that marry up nicely. In other words, there's a lot of strength in the numbers, there are six different sports represented across these podcasts. And there are plenty of ads that want to appeal to across all of them. And you can let your imagination run wild there. So certainly anything local, we talked about events, you know, in- I have designs to do an award show. That's just a teaser for everyone out there. But if I were to have any kind of a panel discussion, or you're promoting a live stream of a podcast, why not promote that using dynamic audio insertion? Because if you only had you know, 200 people listening to that episode, maybe you got 600 people listening, because they've listened to all these past episodes. But apart from the monetization part, and apart from the actual advertising part, I liked the idea of just playing with it. Say you, you've done 200 episodes of your show, and you just did an interview and you think it's the best one you've ever done. Why not put in a message saying- now you have to cater it correctly, of course, because you don't know whether a person's listening to the very episode that you just posted or a past episode. But in other words, it's like if you're listening to episode 17 right now, you should check out episode 201 because it's amazing, right? Or you can solve the problem by previewing a future episode, and then now you're capturing all your listeners previewing this episode coming up, that is going to be the best ever. So I've seen people say, you know, you could use it for for weather reports, if you wanted to just freak somebody out, you know, if I wanted to, across all my Boston based podcast, I could say, beautiful day in downtown Boston today. 72 degrees. Then of course, you got to pay attention and remove that add the next day. So otherwise, someone's get- someone gets caught in the rain.

Catherine O'Brien  35:25

Cause then the weather's changing all the time. And I realized, before when I was asking that question, I use the word intangible, I really meant indirect. So it's like, it's like direct ad dollars versus indirect things like list building, like, you know, just sending people to your socials, those kinds of things. So, just a clarification.

Matt Cundill  35:41

The Stitcher app is a good one, because the Stitcher app is going away August 29. So how about a pre roll just to say, hey, if you're listening on the Stitcher app, this app is going away, might I recommend these other apps.

Johnny Podcasts  35:52

if you can't think of anything to put- like you want to use it for yourself, but you can't, if you don't have a newsletter, you don't have a Patreon, you don't have- like we've talked about 10 times, don't rate and review. The best and easiest thing is, hey, I really hope you're enjoying this podcast- this is a mid roll, it's not a pre roll. I really hope you're enjoying this episode, I know that you know one person who would enjoy it too. If you don't mind taking three seconds to just text this episode to them, that's going to be the best way to grow to this episode. Alright, let's get back to the show. They're not going to skip through that. And it's a very simple ask, that's very easy to do, that doesn't force them to stop listening to the podcast. And when you say, I know you can think of someone, it feels like you're talking directly to that person, and that person is going to- that they're thinking of pops up in their brain they go, you know what, I love Johnny, I'm gonna text that episode for him. And like we've talked about a dozen times, it's still the best way to grow your podcast is by a trusted person sharing it with someone they know.

Catherine O'Brien  36:47

Alright, so devil's advocate here. So the technology allows us to do something that is current amongst regardless of how old the podcast episode is, but the things that we're sharing right now are seeming to be a little bit, also evergreen, like the asking one person to listen to- to share the show with one person. I'm not gonna say rate and review because it does nothing. You know, those, check out some other episodes, those are actually sort of evergreen ideas, too. Is this just to be able to have access to the technology? What are your guys's thoughts on that?

Matt Cundill  37:19

Always good to have access to the technology and just just play with it and try stuff. I think that's a very good place to start, Johnny, with that idea, because the minute you put it in action, it's like Okay, what else can I do? I think what else is one of the big questions that just needs to be answered after you finish an episode. Okay, well, what else can be done in order to, to improve this? And something will come up. And you'll need to have some sort of call to action because it will move to something else. I like David's idea of I've got a brand new episode out featuring so and so on, it's, you know, episode 230. And driving all that traffic that's in your back episodes to your latest episode is just a great idea. And here's a little experiment, a little math experiment. Take the last two weeks, last 14 days, and then see how much your latest episode received in terms of downloads, and then add up all the past ones. So when you add up all the past ones, what percentage is that against the current episode that you did? If you're not using DAI, you're actually leaving all those past episodes on the table, those people are not gonna be able to hear the messages that you want them to have, whether it was just tell a friend, whether it was the mid roll for your client so that your client gets, you know, the sale so that they'll come back and give you more money later, that they didn't get a chance to go and to come to your live event because you only put it in your latest episodes, because you baked in the ad as it were, instead of putting it in through all the old episodes. So take a look at that number. You know, we saw a stat: 47% of downloads for podcasts are older episodes. What's that look like for your show?

David Yas  38:54

Yeah, it's undoubtedly considerable. This is something that podcasts have over radio and other media is, it does happen in the streaming world. I mean, it's no secret that, you know, Netflix will have some current ads on there that even though if you're watching a show from you know, 2012 or whatever, but Catherine, if I may, just one other thing to mentione that I guess I sort of forgot before is, we always talk about listener engagement, and how can you get listeners to participate and become more ambassadors for the show? So on some of the shows I do we run contests, we run polls, the divorce floor, they do a podcast where we do a segment called Ask Evan where listeners do questions, real simple stuff, right? But think of how much better response you'll get if you've got all of your listeners getting that call to action, rather than just the ones listening to the most current episode.

Catherine O'Brien  39:44

I do think it needs a little bit of a leaning into the things that are current, so not just the weather, but events, things that are coming up, current promotions, that really seems like the the stronger area where where this can- can come through.

Matt Cundill  39:58

13 weeks is really Something that you should plan on, so quarterly. I mean, I know it's hard to think 13 weeks in advance. But, you know, we talk about 13 weeks for an ad buy. Johnny, you were talking earlier about a campaign that was one month, one month, one month, right? That's essentially 13 weeks. What can you put in that spot to promote through 13 weeks to get people into thinking something, because I know we want to put it in- we think, Oh, we put it in for a week and I ran across the entire podcast, and everybody got to hear it. But it is frequency that really makes the cash register ring, and really ingrains thoughts into people's minds before they take action.

Johnny Podcasts  40:32

On the reason I said 30 days specifically, that was just because for one of the shows I worked on, we did an audience survey. So we put together like a 50 or 60 question Google survey. And we want to get as many people filling that out as possible. So we're leaving that up there for a minimum of 30 days. If you only put it up there for a week, there's no telling how many people for whatever reason they might have that they're not tuning into the podcasts that week, you've got to give them an extra amount of time. And sometimes it takes that second, third, fourth hit of them hearing it where they go, Oh, shit, alright, fine. I'll fill out your stupid survey, and you get my email.

Matt Cundill  41:07

How did we get 45 minutes into this, and nobody talks about the survey? Because asking people to serve- you know, to fill out a survey, is a great way to use DAI.

Catherine O'Brien  41:15

Yeah. Well, and I mean, I- I'm guessing, and you guys tell me, that 30 days would sort of be a minimum, because now you know, we're thinking of best practices for podcasts, as you think about like the- you're looking at the first 30 days that the podcast is out there to be the time period where we're judging it. So, you know, 30 days seems to be like the starting point almost for something like that. And I know that just this is one of those marketing things that you saying, Hey, could you fill out the survey? It feels like you're saying it over and over and over again, you're sick of saying it, but you know, we always hear that it's like se- you need seven asks before somebody will take action. I mean, that's kind of the je- the basic mark- marketing idea, right? So the repetition really is the thing that makes the difference.

Johnny Podcasts  41:59

If 30 days is your- is your minimum, if you're releasing your podcast only once a week, that's only four potential times that your listener is going to hear it. If you're on- they're only listen to one episode a week, that's only four times they're going to hear the ad.

Matt Cundill  42:11

Record multiple pieces of copy. So same message, write it twice, differently.

Catherine O'Brien  42:16

Oh, so just a slight variation?

Matt Cundill  42:18

Yeah, and then you can have- you can have that rotate. So the first time you'll get version A, and then the next time you get version B hopefully. And in the end, it comes out differently.

Jon Gay  42:26

Be careful with that. I had a situation where I had three rotating and I was spot checking it, listening in the car, and all three played back to back. So know how to make- so know how to make sure that that has not happened if you're doing this.

Johnny Podcasts  42:39

How quickly did you rip a U turn and gun it home to go fix it on your computer?

Jon Gay  42:44

Fortunately it was not a client podcast. But the second I got home I fixed it, yes.

Catherine O'Brien  42:48

Wow.

Matt Cundill  42:49

I've had that happen.

Catherine O'Brien  42:51

No fun. That's no fun whatsoever. Well, any other comments that people want to make about DAI? Actually, you know, since we- you have done such great convincing here about doing it, what would you say is the best- let's- let's leave our listeners and our audience here with like, what is a good first way to start with a DAI? What's- what's a starter that everybody should consider for their podcast?

Johnny Podcasts  43:14

Pre roll, share the episode. Eight seconds max, very short, very quick, you're not bombarding them with a minute long pitch about your new Patreon that you just launched. I just want- we're gonna get into the episode, I just want you to share this with a friend. Enjoy. Boom.

Jon Gay  43:28

Love it.

David Yas  43:29

David. I'll say, and I'm probably sort of stealing from- from Matt's idea, but pick a milestone that you hit, even if it's just 20 episodes, or 50 or 100. And record one that kind of thanks your listeners. And it's got a dual purpose because it's- it's thanking your listeners, but it's also triggering people the fact that there's 100 podcasts in this library. So if I just happen to stumble upon 45, because I did a Google search and happen to find one episode, I know that this is a serious podcast, and it sounds really professional, 100 episodes and all that. That's off the top of my head, Catherine, hope you enjoyed it.

Catherine O'Brien  44:06

Oh, thank you. So- I'll put it- I'm gonna put a dynamic audio insertion right here to say how much I appreciated hearing that. And I'm going to tell one person about the Podcast Superfriends. JAG!

Jon Gay  44:16

I will go back to the listener surveys. And to the point earlier about social media, you're not Mark Zuckerberg, you're not Elon Musk, thank God, and you don't have control of these social media algorithms. But if you get somebody's email, you can get more info about who they are, you can be guaranteed to put your messaging in their inbox. By the way, don't get their email address and flood them with spam because they'll unsubscribe, but have good content, have good content for your email. And you can actually get much more insights about your audience. Listener survey I would put at the end of the episode. I can't believe this.

Catherine O'Brien  44:44

I can't believe this JAG, you want me to have good content for my podcast and good content for my emails? Unbelievable.

Jon Gay  44:50

Good- good rule of thumb, Catherine, don't have bad content everywhere. You're only as good your last piece of content.

Catherine O'Brien  44:55

Unbelievable. Wow. Okay. Well, Matt.

Matt Cundill  44:57

Well, I think there's a couple of things. I really like just asking people to hit the follow or subscribe button on the podcast app, what I really mean is hit follow on Apple or Spotify. And what I really mean by that is, I really mean just hit follow on Apple, because that is 1/3 of the metrics that Apple is using to determine, you know, Apple charts. So the other two being downloads and completion of the show. And I have found in the last couple of podcasts that I've launched that, asking people to do that, of course, these people had big followings. But because a lot of people did go and hit the follow button, we had some- some big chart numbers, which, of course, turns into some really, really nice, nice publicity. I think if you're starting, I don't think you need to do this right away. If you've got like a podcast host and you're comfy, you're just getting your feet wet, I don't think you need to bog yourself down. Maybe when you get to Episode 20, you can think about it, or 12 or 20, or episode- when you- once you start to get a bunch of episodes that people are going back and listening to, it's not that hard to move your podcast to a host that does have DAI that's at the price that's right for you, that is going to operate at the level that you want it to. So if you're- you can talk to your current podcast host and maybe you go with them, or you can move it somewhere else. It's not something you need to jump out of the gate and do day one.

Catherine O'Brien  46:18

And I just want to just point out the fact that even if somebody is not at the point of doing DAI, or they're not convinced, that you've gotten a lot of great ideas, just to you know, evergreen ideas that are going to work for any podcast through this- talking about this episode, the kinds of things that you could be asking your listeners to do, your audience to do, the importance of a survey, just even knowing the difference- I love the the idea of the what's next, Matt. And then finally, I'm just really going to look for the dynamic audio insertion becoming a competition point amongst some of our legacy and stalwart podcast hosting companies, that if that technology is available, that they make it sort of more broadly available, that anybody can start experimenting with it in a way that's going to be positive for their- their listeners and their- their clientele there. How does that sound? Anything that didn't get included, Matt? Are you- are you searching your notes?

Matt Cundill  47:13

No, I actually- I'm- I'm embarrassed. I've never done a survey. I know it's there. I know the technology's there. But I've never done a survey. And I probably figure that I should.

Jon Gay  47:22

I think that is a good point, because there are a lot of things that we all know we should be doing. There's a million things we could and should be doing for podcasting. I was on vacation last week, and I was busy with some client work before and after. I haven't done an episode of my podcast in about a month, and I'm kicking myself over it because I had other things to do. It's the advice we give all of our clients: be consistent. Well, sometimes life gets in the way. So do as many things as you can, but make sure your mental health is a priority as well.

Johnny Podcasts  47:46

You look very tan.

Catherine O'Brien  47:47

Yeah, you look great, so.

Matt Cundill  47:50

I had a client, by the way, announce that she's releasing a film and going on tour across Canada. I said, Well, you've got a podcast and you've got an opportunity here, you can actually go and set a date with every one of your listeners in every city because we can take that piece of audio, and we can put it in New Brunswick and we can put it in Nova Scotia and then in Ontario, and you can even direct it down just a little bit more narrow than that. And a lot of it is just- it's the thinking behind it. We don't think about it, because we don't hear it when we actually produce it. It's kind of this invisible piece of audio that comes screaming out of the sky, and then just sort of shows up in your show. And I think to that point, do what JAG did and listen back to your show. And listen to the user experience. There's a lot of people out there who do not listen back to their show. And yeah, you should listen to it the way a listener would do it and perform that self check.

Jon Gay  48:41

Very quickly, Matt, how do you get down to that niching on the geographic side in your host? Is it- how does it let you niche down to that specific area? Is it by IP address, where they're downloading it from?

Matt Cundill  48:52

So in Megaphone, you can get down to province in Canada, which is not bad. In the US you can get down to what they call DMA. I don't know what that stands for. But the US is a little more organized when it comes down to being able to target things into regions. So not quite postal code, but I could hit Dallas Fort Worth with a message. Catherine mentioned she got targeted, was it Pensacola?

Catherine O'Brien  49:13

Mhm. Yeah, Florida.

Matt Cundill  49:14

You got hit with an ad. Yeah, it can be zeroed down quite a lot. And I believe there's probably going to be technology at a time when you can probably go right into a zip code.

Jon Gay  49:23

Designated marketing area by the way, Matt.

Matt Cundill  49:26

Thank you.

Johnny Podcasts  49:26

I'm looking at Megaphone right now, and so for folks using megaphone that wanted to do this and get really granular on the actual time zones or areas, like you want to do Chicago, West Coast New York, for example. You'd have to do three separate campaigns. It looks like you can only do one at- it will only deliver it- so if you only wanted this delivered to New York, you'd have to set that as its own campaign, you can't do individual ones. Like audio one will only deliver to New York, audio two will only deliver to Dallas, audio three will only deliver to Los Angeles, within the same campaign. So that's something about as well, but again, like Matt said, don't bog yourself down with all that stuff right now, just worry about getting comfortable with the technology, because it's going to be a huge advantage to you going forward. And eventually, every host will allow you to use this technology. So just use it to your advantage because it will help you.

Catherine O'Brien  50:17

I also am thinking, this is sort of a verbal checklist here for this Podcast Superfriends. Maybe we should tackle a listener survey, since Johnny has been leading the charge with his client doing that. Maybe this would be a good to-do for the rest of the Podcast Superfriends, and then compare notes in a future episode. What do you think of that?

David Yas  50:37

I think if the listener right now is listening to this episode in September, then here's the survey right here. I'm joking, but like, it's- when you really stop and think about it, it's like you're talking to people from the future. That's- that's what's cool about this.

Catherine O'Brien  50:55

Yeah

Matt Cundill  50:56

Well do we put it in the pre roll or the mid roll?

Catherine O'Brien  50:59

Not- certainly not on the post roll, because that's where we have our swaps that we're offering to our- our other friends now. Well, and actually Johnny, I was meaning that this- maybe we take this as a charge for our own clients, or maybe think of one show that we work on and do a survey, and then come back and kind of compare notes to how that- how that all went. So maybe that's something for the- you know me, I always like to be thinking ahead about some of the future episodes that we can do, that maybe it would be nice to do, like, we all take on a listener survey for a client and come back and compare notes. Look for that in a future episode.

Johnny Podcasts  51:31

I've already done that. So I don't have to do anything.

Catherine O'Brien  51:33

How dare you? Get- you're still- find another show that you can do a one on one with. You can compare and contrast. Okay. Well, this has been fun. I hope that this has really been an education, that we covered the basics of dynamic- Now I'm calling it dynamic audio insertion, not dynamic ad insertion. So I am a reformed person right off the bat. Thanks to this episode right here. Let's go ahead and turn- go around the world here and say goodbye to our audience today. Starting with Matt.

Matt Cundill  52:01

Matt Cundill, the Sound Off Podcast Network out of Winnipeg, Manitoba. Thanks for listing.

Catherine O'Brien  52:06

Johnny.

Johnny Podcasts  52:08

If you are curious about how to create an audience survey, I've listed out already 30 questions for you. Just search Johnny Podcasts on Substack.

Catherine O'Brien  52:17

Wow, it's already pre done. JAG.

Jon Gay  52:19

Jon Gay, JAG in Detroit podcast. I specialize in creating remote podcasts for brands in the comfort of your own home or office.

Catherine O'Brien  52:25

And the award show MC, David Yas.

David Yas  52:29

Yes, David Yas, Pod617.com, the Boston Podcast Network. Thank you for hosting today, Catherine, and for doing such a dynamic job.

All  52:38

Ha!

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  52:41

Thanks for listening to the Podcast Superfriends. For a transcript of the show, or to connect with the Superfriends, go to the show notes of this episode, or go to soundoff.network.