Matt & Jag Went To Podcast Movement

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:00  
The podcast super friends: five podcast pros talking tech, promotion, marketing ideas, and strategy. This is one

Matt Cundill  0:12  
we've been planning. It's the easiest one for us to plan it because podcast movement happens, and then the episode right after podcast movement, we just look at the people and said, "Who went to podcast movement? And we'll all just you know talk about you know podcast movement. And here we are again. This is a September edition. My name is Matt Cundill. I'll be walking us through this today. We're going to find out which two people amongst us went to podcast movement. But first, intros as we go clockwise down to Baton Rouge.

Catherine O'Brien  0:43  
Two of these podcast producers are not like the others. They have gone to Podcast Movement. Hey, everybody! My name is Catherine O'Brien, and I am tuning in from Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

David Yas  0:53  
David, yes, it's 61 degrees, partly sunny skies in the Greater Boston area. Traffic on the expressway sucks every day. It does. Pod 617 dot com Boston Podcast Network. Thank you,

Jon Gay  1:05  
John Gage, Egg Podcast Productions. Excuse my voice. I caught a cold while traveling last week, so I've got a cough drop in for this episode.

Johnny Podcasts  1:16  
It's 94 in Texas. It's hot in Texas. It's going

Jon Gay  1:19  
to be

Johnny Podcasts  1:20  
hot tomorrow in Texas.

Jon Gay  1:21  
Who are you? Yeah.

Matt Cundill  1:25  
Oh, I'm Johnny Podcasts, and I'm here. Yay! And ready to go. Assume we're gonna find out where Jag got that cold from. I think it's appropriate to lay blame. By the way, at you know whose hand you shook and who gave that to you. I think it's gonna be okay. Podcast movement has been going since 2014. The first one was in Dallas, and subsequently there was one in 2015. Went to Chicago, went to Anaheim, went to Philadelphia, went to Orlando. Skipped 2020 because of the pandemic. 2021 went to Nashville, which I missed. Border issues, 2022. I can't remember. 2023, Denver something, 2024 something something, Dallas something, 2024

Jon Gay  2:09  
DC, 25 Dallas.

Matt Cundill  2:10  
Thank you. And this year was held in New York City, and I think it was most interesting. And by the way, podcast moving under with some changes as well, combining forces with sounds profitable, and sounds profitable. Always thought, well, what would happen if we put it in New York? And podcast movement went to New York this year, and we find found out what happens when you put podcast movement in New York. So for the for the crew, we've all been to podcast movement at one point or another, and I don't think all of us have been together at one. I think the closest we came was possibly Dallas in 2022.

Jon Gay  2:47  
Orlando. I think we all went to Orlando. That's how we all connected, wasn't it?

Catherine O'Brien  2:50  
I was just going to say this is actually the lore of the podcast Super Friends. Is that our the our root is that we all were at podcast movement at some point. I met Johnny. Matt was my very very first podcast movement friend from the second ever podcast movement. That's we we go way back.

Matt Cundill  3:08  
But the only thing we knew about each other, Jag, in that Orlando podcast movement was that you know we would enjoy maple martinis. No, maple Manhattan with with Seth Rustler. How was that?

Jon Gay  3:21  
And I believe Johnny and I met during the fire alarm. We were chatting outside, if memory serves.

Matt Cundill  3:26  
That's right. That's right. So we've had we've talked a lot about podcast events over the years on on this show. And so I went, and Jag went, and then he picked up a cold. Jag is very organized and has already come away with a number of of takeaways from from podcast moving, and I guess we'll we'll get you to start to to share a number of them. You've already put them up on your brand new Substack. We'll be sharing where your Substack is, by the way, shortly. But thank you. Which would

Jon Gay  3:53  
what is

Johnny Podcasts  3:53  
it on Substack? Is it Substack on Substack?

Matt Cundill  3:57  
I guess there was no sale on the previous Beehive episode.

Jon Gay  4:00  
I have not. I have not ruled out Beehive, and Ainsley was great, and she was at Podcast Movement. But I am. I decided to give Substack a try at the cajoling of all my Gen Z friends.

Matt Cundill  4:14  
Yeah, actually, and I actually thought about giving it a try as well. I was. There was a few people who were big, big praises. I don't think you can make a mistake on this stuff, but Jag, for those who want to follow along, there is the address to on on your Substack. So, what you put out today, and you had a number of takeaways. What's the first one you want to you want to share with?

Jon Gay  4:34  
Oh, geez, let me click on it because I I. How about this one? Yes,

Matt Cundill  4:39  
you don't have to do video,

Jon Gay  4:41  
yeah. And that was really the one of the big things that Ariel hammered home in her keynote friend of the pod, by the way. That you know they did this man on the street interview style stuff with the handheld lav mics, but we won't go there. I've I've I've died on that fence before. But they interviewed a. Of folks in and around the venue, and they were asking, "What is the big misnomer? What is the big myth in podcasting right now? And person after person after person said, "You don't have to do video. If you can do video, great. If you're equipped to do video, great. If you're a video person, terrific. But you can have a successful podcast without video. You can simply do an audio podcast. Do it well. You'll get followers and subscribers on Apple and Spotify. You can put the audio on YouTube if you want to have a presence there, and you can monetize it on those platforms as well. You don't have to do video. It's great if you can. Don't don't only dissuade anybody who's doing video or playing on doing video from doing it, but you don't have to. The podcast police are not going to barge down your front door and haul you away if you don't do video. I'll

Matt Cundill  5:51  
ask. I will ask Johnny then. What is the level of FOMO for not doing video? Because I feel that there's like a giant FOMO if you don't do video, and I think this is why this discussion, this question, comes up on this show and as well at events.

Johnny Podcasts  6:04  
I think it depends on what your goals are. I think you're right; you don't have to do video, but we all play in different worlds with the types of shows that we work with. So the types of shows that I'm working on are a lot of like business-focused stuff. Who are getting a lot of their clients from the internet.

Jon Gay  6:22  
Sure,

Johnny Podcasts  6:23  
in that vacuum by itself, you have to have your face on camera. People got to put a face to the name, to the podcast, to the show because the podcast becomes the clips that becomes the Twitter content that becomes the LinkedIn content. Yes, you can do audio only, but just in the world, in the freeway that I'm driving on, it would be really weird not to. And I have some clients that don't that don't do video, and their shows do quite well.

Jon Gay  6:54  
Johnny, what do you think about my compromise of if you don't if you're afraid of producing a whole video episode, do some video clips, do an audio episode, but at least shoot the video so you can grab some clips for social media reels and discovery. What do you think about that?

Johnny Podcasts  7:08  
You've already done it. Why not just throw it on YouTube? What's what's you're already putting your face on clips that's going to go on social? Why why are we stopping it? It

David Yas  7:18  
begs the question: Is what you're actually putting on YouTube because I think there's no right answer to this. If you want to be more compelling, you get the moving video. But a lot of my clients, I just do a static image of the logo with the waveform, and that way, at least you're on YouTube. You know, very powerful search engine. Needless to say, but I don't know,

Jon Gay  7:39  
Dave. Are you seeing the the more consumption on YouTube with the audiogram or on the audio platforms, or does that depend on where they're promoting it? You think

David Yas  7:48  
for now, still seeing more on audio platforms on Apple and Spotify, but everybody's different. Some people already have an established YouTube channel, so they'll do better on YouTube,

Jon Gay  8:00  
sure. So, Catherine,

Catherine O'Brien  8:06  
as you know, I like to be a little bit philosophical about this. I what I haven't quite worked this all out yet, but I wish that podcast world would say we like audio and we view podcasting as an audio format, and if you go and do video, that's great. If you have success doing a video, that's great. But our focus is going to be audio because I am-I can't help but notice we have this conversation a lot. It never seems to advance past this point, and the people who are diehard about audio. That's great. That's that's OG podcasting. We understand. We get it. We're audio files. It feels closer. It feels special. I get it. We're in a video world, and you know, just like the example we just came up with. Why? Why are? Why the parsing to like? Okay, well, I the compromise will be doing video clips, and instead of just saying, okay, we we have a video element to this format, we're doing it or we're not. I don't, I, I can't help but notice we have this conversation. Did

Johnny Podcasts  9:14  
they give like concrete reasons as to why they're like, you don't have to do video because you're? And did they like? I think some folks don't only shows. They're like

Jon Gay  9:24  
Matt is so good for those of you watching the video right now. I was just going to reference this. Rob Walsh does for

Catherine O'Brien  9:30  
those of you doing what now? Yes, there you go.

Jon Gay  9:33  
For for those of you on not on the video, Rob Walsh does his podcast 411 every every year. He used to be Libsyn. I believe he's captivate now. Matt is captivate, and he talks about what you're seeing on the screen right now. You can consume audio driving, working out, walking the dog, folding laundry, doing chores, but video you can't do that while you're driving. You can't really do that if you're getting a serious workout in. So, video and audio are really two different. Tiles of consumption, and I think the the real takeaway from the keynote was you can monetize and be successful doing just audio, and I think that you don't have to just because all the lemmings are jump off the cliff do video. Video is great if you give them the choice, do video, but you don't have to if it's not for you.

Catherine O'Brien  10:18  
That's that's correct, and and again, that's why I'm saying I wish the podcast world would say we prefer audio. We that's what our focus is, and almost like we don't care what the rest of the world is doing. That's that's our focus is is is the audio. Plus, I mean, loving counterpoint that I have been in an Uber lately. That sign we just were looking at is wrong. There are plenty of people who are watching YouTube while they're driving. I mean, everything. The loving counterpoint is the

Johnny Podcasts  10:46  
driverless thing too. Like, is that going to change the way that people consume stuff?

Catherine O'Brien  10:51  
Exactly. And again, that's why I'm I'm starting to put together in my mind. I I want the podcasting world to say our focus is audio. That's we are leading the world in audio podcasting. We don't care what the world is doing.

Matt Cundill  11:06  
So it's the listener who decides, and the listener is one saying the consumer, not

Jon Gay  11:10  
undesired. The listener could be a video video watcher.

Matt Cundill  11:13  
Well, the listener the listener watcher is saying we watch YouTube. We get our and you're going to talk about where people get their podcast shortly here, Jag, because there's a big takeaway coming up. But they're saying video, but their behavior is audio. The ratio, and Rob pointed this out, 15 to one is the ratio between those who are listening to the audio and those who are consuming the the video. That's still very large. So I don't know where anybody says that audio has gone away or anything like that. It still leads by a wide margin.

David Yas  11:46  
Matt, does that contemplate, anticipate, include? I'm looking for the right word. Does that include people who listen to podcasts on YouTube? And I chose those words carefully because oh, my son does. Why do you listen to podcasts on YouTube? Oh, are you watching the video? No, not really. No, it just goes

Johnny Podcasts  12:03  
in your pocket. I have that

Matt Cundill  12:05  
number. That number, I asked Jay Nackos over the fourth drink somewhere, and he said Jay Nakos from Coleman Insights, friend of the show, been on the show, might be on the show again.

Jon Gay  12:15  
The fourth drink or the fourth Bills touchdown Thursday night.

Matt Cundill  12:18  
Yes,

Johnny Podcasts  12:19  
fourth broken table in a parking lot outside of Applebee's,

Matt Cundill  12:22  
37% are consuming the show, a video show, in their pocket. They're not even watching it.

Jon Gay  12:31  
Yeah,

Catherine O'Brien  12:32  
correct.

Johnny Podcasts  12:32  
So, Jag, it's like it's like what you said then. You kind of accidentally stumbled upon the correct answer, which is why are we doing video, and it's for the promo. You're doing the video for the promo because people are using their eyes on social media to try and get to. That's where you want to people to find your show on the shorts, on the reels, on the Twitter, on the LinkedIn, on TikTok. That's why you have the video because no one's going to stop and look at on TikTok and stop for an audiogram.

Jon Gay  13:01  
Stop the scroll. Yeah, you're onto something there, Johnny.

Matt Cundill  13:04  
I guess we'll stay with video here because Jag had this one, and I missed this. I did not see this, and this is why Jag and I never show up in the same spot at Podcast Movement. We all break out into divide

Jon Gay  13:14  
and conquer.

Matt Cundill  13:15  
Divide and conquer.

David Yas  13:16  
That's why you fly separately because if God forbid one goes down, can't

Catherine O'Brien  13:20  
risk.

Jon Gay  13:20  
Our Canadian friend is the designated survivor.

Matt Cundill  13:25  
Jag, you said good YouTube thumbnails are crucial to video podcasts.

Jon Gay  13:30  
Yeah, this was actually one of my favorite sessions of the two days we were there. It was Brian Coddington from Libsyn, and he talked about sort of uniting this circle of your great content as a cold open, your headline and your thumbnail. I guess that's more of a triangle because it's three points. But keeping the message consistent between all of them. So we're all familiar with the cold open. You take that really great 30 seconds of a show and you bump it right up to the front because you got to give somebody reason in the first 30 seconds to listen for the next or watch for the next 30 minutes, so start with that. That's your gold. Then use use that to come up with your podcast friendly podcast SEO friendly podcast title. Catherine's an expert in that space, and then from there make the thumbnail. And the key thing about the thumbnail is the thumbnail has nothing to do with SEO. Google and ChatGPT and Claude are not looking at your thumbnails. Eyeballs are. The whole point of the thumbnail is to stop the scroll. And there's a few different templates that are pretty sure people are using, and people are used to those because people are creatures of habits. Use those thumbnails. Matt has it up on the screen right now. The three reasons thumbnails fail. It's not understanding how YouTube works, YouTube rewards the amount of time people watch, not the effort you put into cultivating your perfect thumbnail. Failure to adapt to video audiences, which to our earlier point are sometimes behave different than audio audiences, and not aligning that packaging, which is I'm talking about here: description, title, and thumbnail. The thumbnail is for the people to stop the scroll. The title is for SEO, and the content is for people's ear holes.

Catherine O'Brien  15:06  
And regular watchers of the regular consumers of the podcast Super Friends are well aware of this because this has been Johnny Podcast Evangelism Point for I don't know two years now straight.

Johnny Podcasts  15:20  
That thumbnails are the are the key.

Jon Gay  15:23  
Yes.

Johnny Podcasts  15:23  
Yeah, and you want to know the next layer of that. You can condense all of your knowledge about thumbnails into like two things, which is what exactly what Jag hit on, which is the goal is to get someone to stop scrolling and click on your video. And how do we do that? You lie. You aggravate. It's unfortunate emotion. You pull out emotional heartstrings, and it's unfortunate because a lot of the shows that I work on, they they're they're tied up in the compliance stuff. So I rarely get the chance to like really like YouTube clickbait thumbnail it out. A lot of the stuff is very measured and buttoned up, which is fine in its own right. There's there's nothing wrong with that. And if you want to remain professional and within your brand guidelines, that's totally cool. Do that.

Jon Gay  16:10  
I'm glad you said that, Johnny, because if you have a really golden clip that you've now matched to the first 30 seconds of the episode, the YouTube and the headline, it's not clickbait because you're catching somebody's attention and you're delivering that content in the first 30 seconds. You're not lying; it is right there, and it's and you're delivering what you promised, and they come back for more.

Johnny Podcasts  16:33  
But if you really want the click, you get the you lie. You you you put like the three words of like you will not give me an example. You get the guys. So, for example, for this episode of Podcast Super Friends, the ideal clickbait thumbnail is going to be me going like this. Jag is going to have a COVID mask over his face and a temperature thing. Like he's just so sick he can't even talk, but he has to talk about podcast movement. The New York City skyline is behind us, with Mamdani hanging out of one of the windows, and we're all hanging out of other windows with microphones in our hands.

David Yas  17:09  
Johnny, this is mine. Yeah, from Boston

Johnny Podcasts  17:10  
David's with the with the Boston Red Sox hat on, and the the the clickbait lie text on it is gonna say you won't believe what we learned in New York, or something, or the future of podcasting from New York, something along. Matt

Catherine O'Brien  17:27  
Cundill destroys the podcast Super Friends.

Johnny Podcasts  17:30  
The one from New York, it's Matt and Jag. Jag almost died in New York. Podcast movie. Yes, you won't

Matt Cundill  17:37  
believe which two Super Friends spent the night together.

Johnny Podcasts  17:41  
It's. it's things like that. It's like you and again, it's all trial and error and

Catherine O'Brien  17:50  
A/B testing.

Johnny Podcasts  17:51  
The best the best like practical advice that I can give to people consuming this right now, and then I'll shut up is figure out the AI tools that are best at cleaning up your faces from an episode. Don't use your high res headshot every single time. Get the in in episode reaction faces. Pull those. Use ChatGPT. Use Remini AI. Clean up your faces and then use that to design the base of your thumbnail. And then again, Riverside also has the tools that you can use as well.

Catherine O'Brien  18:19  
I was just going to say, Coco has gotten so much better with thumbnails. Friend of the show, Coco. The yes. As

Jon Gay  18:26  
I say, I love her size thumbnail generator

Johnny Podcasts  18:27  
scaffolding. Black background. We got to get the background has to be different. Maybe you want to change up the text. I've played with that and taking it even a step or two beyond what it gives you. It just like it just it breaks.

Matt Cundill  18:43  
Okay, so for years we went to podcast movement, and the following things would happen every single year: some new tool, some new platform would become the Netflix of podcasting, and the Netflix of podcasting one year was going to be Luminary, and then it was going to be Spotify was going to take over and merge with Netflix, and they would call it Spotflix. But then Netflix got into podcasting, and now Netflix is the Netflix of podcasting for those who are following along. And not everybody was a buyer of this, right, Jag?

Jon Gay  19:17  
Right, and I didn't think this was something really worth discussing, except that Tom Webster really hammered this, and if it's important to Tom Webster, it's important to podcasting. That man's word is usually gospel, and so Tom's point was pretty simple, which is Netflix chooses which podcasts are putting on their platform. They are Warren Littlefeld at NBC. They are whoever the network executive is deciding if you know Jerry and George get their pilot. This is not an open ecosystem like an Apple, a Spotify, a YouTube, where creators can put their content and let the cream rise to the top. So you know what is a podcast? What isn't a podcast? We're having the video debate a minute ago. Is that it isn't a podcast? Is sort of an extension of what. Just discussing Netflix. You can consume podcasts on Netflix, but I would not consider Netflix a podcasting platform because it is closed. It is not an open forum. You can't just submit it to Netflix like you can Amazon, iHeart, whatever. So, with that element of gatekeeping, there, I would I would not qualify Netflix as a podcast platform. I'm curious your thoughts. TV

David Yas  20:23  
shows. What's the difference between those and TV shows? They're TV. They're talk shows. Thank you. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  20:27  
So wait a second. We should clarify this because it's really important that we have these lines in this business. And that's if you're on Netflix and you have an SM7B in front of you, then that's a podcast. If we take the mics and headphones away, it's terrible television.

Johnny Podcasts  20:46  
If craft services is setting up outside your studio, it's television. If they're not, then it's a podcast.

Matt Cundill  20:53  
Okay,

David Yas  20:54  
but the point is that our consumers, listeners, readers, whatever should take away is it's just a completely different ball game. There's no, at the moment, anyways. Until Netflix does something different, it's it's not worth comparing us regular podcasters to you know the handful of celebrity podcasters that they have. Let them do their thing. It's fine. I mean, you know, if you want to watch a podcast on Netflix, I guess I think

Johnny Podcasts  21:20  
it's one of those mutually beneficial things. Like the one I'm thinking of is Bill Simmons podcast. They have a pretty tight agreement with Netflix, so there there a lot of their live ones are going to Netflix, and there's a Spotify angle there too. Simmons is a the Ringer is owned by Spotify. I'm pretty sure his company. Yes, and then there's you know there's the layered below that is they do the ringer does media podcasts like where they talk about movies where they break down films and things like that and then I've seen people talking online like wow the I think it's called Rewatchables is his movie podcast like wow rewatchables is hitting a lot of these Netflix movies lately and talking about how amazing they are and synergy. It's like there's probably if I'm the everyday average podcaster, I would not care about that for two seconds. It'd be like no, it's like David. I mean, it's a different universe. It is

David Yas  22:11  
a different universe, but that I mean that makes sense. I was I listen. I happen to listen to the rewatchables a lot, and it it it was a good move by Netflix, but it just doesn't change for now the rest of the podcast world. Yes, we just we just spent two hours talking about Animal House. Oh, by the way, Animal House is streaming on Netflix.

Matt Cundill  22:31  
Smart, smart

David Yas  22:32  
for not yeah, smart for Netflix.

Matt Cundill  22:34  
So the question the question came out of sounds profitable, which was to people where you know did you encounter podcasts? And I think I'm going to need my memory here, but one of them was YouTube. Second was Spotify, and then the third one was Netflix. And that's where Tom wanted to sort of really draw the line. And so it's just because people saw an opportunity to consume their 10 or 15 podcasts. People are developing this recall that Netflix is is really a place for podcasts, and then Tom's talked about it's not the Tower Records of podcasts. I love his Tower Records analogy. Great, and then he also I'm glad he mentioned Todd Cochran too, who we lost a little over a year ago. Who you know would argue vehemently about you know YouTube not really being a place for podcasts, but you know Tom said that if Todd were here, you know this is where I would draw the line, and and Todd would agree.

Jon Gay  23:29  
It's funny we talk about watching on Netflix because one of the other takeaways I had was the two the two growth areas for podcasts. One, in terms of audience, are people who have not yet consumed podcasts, where the thought was delivered that we're kind of maxed out at who is listening to podcasts. The folks who have not consumed a podcast, you've got to find a way to connect with them on a topic they're interested in, or just sort of find a way to grab them. But in terms of consumption, the real growth is in smart TVs. That is where podcast consumption is really growing. I can tell you that on a given night, my wife and I are just as likely going to be watching something on YouTube on our Samsung Smart TV as we are "quote unquote" television on YouTube TV. So I think there is a content creation, a content consumption rather, happening on smart TVs. There is a little bit of growth for podcasts there, if you are willing to call them the video of the podcast, and if you are doing video for that reason, your resolution better be at least 1080. Because if you are 720, you might not notice on a phone, a tablet, or a laptop, but you sure as heck are going to notice on a 65 inch television,

Matt Cundill  24:38  
or you can just turn it on and listen to it.

Jon Gay  24:43  
while you're while you're while you're doom scrolling on your phone, just have this the podcast audio playing on your TV and not look at it. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  24:49  
yeah. Okay, we'll move on to the next one. I can pretty much just grab just about anything here, but let's go with this one, Jack. That you came up with. This is you can't paint Gen Z with a broad brush.

Jon Gay  25:04  
Were you in this one, Matt? This panel.

Matt Cundill  25:06  
I was. Is this Stephen Goldstein's? Yes. Yes, I was there.

Jon Gay  25:09  
So Steve Goldstein, one of probably the top minds in all of podcasting, brilliant guy. He teaches at NYU. So since we were in New York, he had three of his Gen Z students, younger than even Johnny, come sit with him on stage to talk about their media consumption habits. And my big takeaway was they were all different. You can make your stereotypes with generations. You can say the Gen Xers are aloof. You can say the Millennials eat their avocado toast. But when it comes to Gen Z, they all came up in such a splintered media world that no two people's consumption is alike. Some were listening on Apple, some were listening on Spotify, some were watching videos, some were listening to audio. The the one thing that they all did seem to have in common, and I met shout out to Holden Sherman if he's watching. He's a 2026 Syracuse grad, and he came to the convention and hung out and met some people with me. Really good, really bright young podcaster. He he agreed with this statement that they're often deleting apps that they have an awareness of how glued to their phones they are and why it's so bad that they go through a cycle where they sort of detox and they'll delete TikTok or they'll delete Instagram and and then maybe come back to it down the road. But like I'm spending too much time here scrolling. I need to get this off my phone or turn off the notifications. The phone detox seemed to have the the one thing they had in common, but their media consumption was all over the place. So if you're trying to reach Gen Z, you better find them where they are, and that's not just one place. I

Johnny Podcasts  26:33  
thought I was the only one that did that. I do that like every month. I'll delete Instagram and Twitter from my phone. I like two or three. You're like

Jon Gay  26:40  
borderline millennial Gen Z, aren't you, Johnny?

Johnny Podcasts  26:42  
I don't. I don't subscribe to any of it. It's. It is interesting, though. My what sparks in my mind when you say that, though, Jag, is how blessed are we to have the the ability to put our podcasts everywhere. So if that's the audience you're trying to reach, you got to be everywhere if you want to reach everybody, if you want to reach the largest potential total addressable market, you need to be everywhere. Clips need to be on every platform. Video needs to be, if you're doing video, needs to be on YouTube, needs to be on Spotify, needs to be on Apple. You need to be everywhere. And luckily, where the fish are, likely you only have to make one podcast, and then you just get it out there.

Matt Cundill  27:20  
Just a reminder, which I should have mentioned a few moments ago, that you probably should never be saying wherever you get your podcasts, because chances are very good that your podcast is not on Netflix, which is where people think that you get podcasts from.

Jon Gay  27:33  
I have begun to say wherever you're listening or watching right now, because if you're consuming the content, it's there wherever you're consuming it,

Matt Cundill  27:41  
another sneaky one. Wherever you press play,

Jon Gay  27:45  
ooh, I like that.

David Yas  27:47  
What if you have autoplay? I just

Matt Cundill  27:50  
then that's not a that's not an IAB certified download.

Jon Gay  27:53  
That is a whole different podcast. Yes,

Johnny Podcasts  27:56  
podcast police kicks your door down.

Matt Cundill  27:59  
Yeah, Jag. I also I also felt that it was interesting about the about the way they consume and they don't behave the same way. One of the things that came up about clips though is is one of them mentioned that oh I saw the clip I'm not going to go check out the show because I feel I've already been served up the best part of the show.

Jon Gay  28:17  
But they didn't all feel that way.

Matt Cundill  28:21  
No, no, one, no, they did not. There were three up there,

Jon Gay  28:24  
and I think 111, said that. I forget it was one or two that agree with it. But yeah, there is that. There is that fear in podcasting that if you're giving the best. So I would say, if you, as you think about your clips, yes, you want some of your best stuff out there, but make it a tease. Oh, has anybody know? Everybody,

Matt Cundill  28:38  
yeah, make it a tease. But has anybody really know what the? I am guilty of this too. I see the clips and I'm like, well, I've seen the show for the week. I'm done. But there's

Johnny Podcasts  28:47  
a way that you can structure your clip though to where it's like it's it is the tease where it lends on the cliffhanger. You know, like that's that's a good approach to it. But I think one thing that we shouldn't rush to, you know, we people go to podcasts, move it, and they get these takeaways, and they go, "I have to change every way that I approach my podcast. Let's all not forget that Gen Z is not the entirety of the population that listens to podcasts. You may not have a show that is even remotely interesting to Gen Z people. You might have the Marie Kondo style, like cleaning up your clutter podcast. It's Gen Z is a great audience to try and capture, but remember, everybody listens to podcasts of all age groups, and don't and take those people into consideration as well.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:35  
We love that you're listening to the podcast Super Friends. You can watch the show on YouTube at Johnny Podcasts and at Sound Off Media.

Matt Cundill  29:44  
Okay, Jag, I missed this. Your calls to action probably suck.

Jon Gay  29:50  
For for what it's worth, that was not the name of the session. That was the name of my bullet points. Okay, that would have been a great name for that. Calls to

Johnny Podcasts  29:57  
action definitely suck. I wanted to be

Jon Gay  30:00  
a little bit easier on on on on my first on my first post on Substack. So, I mean, we've all heard these podcasts that Julie Edelman's podcast, Dave. He always says, "Rate and review at the end. That's white noise. That doesn't mean anything. Rate and review, like and subscribe. Find the

Johnny Podcasts  30:19  
podcast.

Jon Gay  30:20  
Nobody hears that because everybody says it. So you really want to think about your calls to action, and you want to focus on one, and maybe do it for a few episodes, see how it works, and then maybe change it up. Focus on one, and the the woman who did the the session. I let me pull this up here because I want to give her credit. It was Jordan Blair from Buzzsprout, she was fantastic. She was talking about, you know, we we sit down. She's like, okay, so before we start, I want you to go into the the the app for the conference, and I want you to follow me, and then I also want you to send me an email, and I want you. And we all looked up. She's like, is anybody going to do any of that 10 things that I just asked you to do? Point taken. Okay, so the idea here is, ask for one thing, and it can be something simple like, hey, and give them a reason too. Like, you know, hey, follow me on social so you can get some behind the scenes content from the show, or you know, I'd like you to fill out my listener surveys because that way you can help shape the direction of the show. There has to be a why behind it. My favorite example she gave is if you're having like a Patreon or buy me a coffee or any of those ways where somebody can donate three or five bucks to your show. This was my favorite example. She said, "You know, hey, I'm 50 bucks away from getting this really great microphone that's going to make this show sound much better. Can you can you throw me five bucks so I can get closer to my goal and get that you know sure SM 7b to Matt's point. I think there's a if you feel as you build a community with your podcast audience, and I definitely want to hit on that panel that Matt was on later as well. But if you're building a community, give me a reason. Why are you asking me for this? You know, follow my social, rate and review, so you I can have an ego boost. That's not going to work. But hey, five bucks would help me toward getting my new microphone, or like I said, fill out my survey so you can help with the direction of my show. So the why really helps, and the old foot in the door sales technique starts small. Start with asking for a follow, and then maybe you work your way up to asking for a Patreon donation or subscribe to my email list. But really think about your calls to action. It's a great opportunity to build community and interact with your audience, without it being a throwaway. Oh, let me just say rate and review at the end of this podcast. You all in agreement there? All agreement,

Johnny Podcasts  32:30  
yeah. I think it's perfect.

Matt Cundill  32:31  
Yeah, we've been we've been on this for years. You especially been on this for years, Jag. I'm not sure it's even a takeaway because I think you you already knew it, but it's something that needs to be reminded, and I think that's why I enjoy going to these events because I get reminded of things that I think I know, but I don't always put into practice. So it's it's quite helpful for that. I did save you something, Catherine. I don't want you to think that I didn't bring something back for you from from from podcast movement, and that's Rob Walsh's slide of the mean numbers for podcast

Jon Gay  33:05  
every year. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  33:06  
yeah.

Catherine O'Brien  33:06  
Mean old numbers.

Matt Cundill  33:07  
Yeah. So these are the podcasting stats. Now he works at Captivate now, so it's probably a different batch. But the numbers don't look terribly different than when he was at Libsyn. And what he does, mean and median numbers, is and he generally will toss out some you know some podcasts that you know less than three episodes and you know haven't published in a long time, and so you're in the top 50% of downloads if there are 28 downloads within the first 30 days. And to folks

Jon Gay  33:38  
who are starting out and getting discouraged, that's a really important number to point out. It's

David Yas  33:42  
actually very important. I mean, I have people who just started. I was just thinking, I usually do the the cowardly thing and just don't tell them what their downloads did for a couple months. Tell them you just got 17 downloads. That's but maybe

Matt Cundill  33:57  
there's a stat by the way out there about golfers. I think 50% of golfers didn't break 100 if they went out and played, and I think this is the one for podcasters. Is you know 28 downloads after the first 30 days. I mean, we used to have this number up in you know 50s. It's come down a little bit. I don't think that has any. I've seen them come down, by the way.

David Yas  34:16  
We

Matt Cundill  34:16  
used to you know it used to be 150 downloads, and we could say yeah, that would be a pretty good start to a podcast, and now I'm finding if you're starting a podcast and getting about 75, you're having a pretty good, you know, time after 30 days. Are there any surprises on this, or this is just where we're at?

Jon Gay  34:32  
I think you're right, Matt. That top 50% number going down a little bit is a little surprising, but beyond that, not really.

Johnny Podcasts  34:39  
Doesn't that just indicate more podcasts, though, like more more dead podcasts.

Jon Gay  34:44  
I believe I believe one of the the slides from Rob is that the number of active podcasts has stayed pretty consistent. So there have been

Johnny Podcasts  34:51  
this slide.

Jon Gay  34:53  
Yeah, but but but I mean by that is your point is right, Johnny. Is that they're more coming out, but their same amount coming in are kind of. Off after an episode or two, so but the number of consistently put out podcasts has been relatively static.

Matt Cundill  35:06  
375 to 400,000 active podcasts. So podcasts that have released an episode in the last 30 days-that's a competitive field. So it's nice to know that you can start a podcast and be on some pretty good footing. You want to run up against YouTube that's putting up a million, you know, 10 million videos a day. That's yeah,

Johnny Podcasts  35:26  
billions of minutes of content uploaded every day. Exactly. The number the number of people care about is is that number when it says downloads, listeners, whatever. Is that number going up over time? Meaningfully, a little bit, a lot. Is it going up or is it going down, and why?

Jon Gay  35:44  
You're teeing me up. Great for my next point, Johnny, which is downloads are not your most important metric.

Matt Cundill  35:51  
I didn't put. I I remember that. How come I didn't put that in here?

Jon Gay  35:55  
And a shout out to Jennifer Lee Gunson, Matt's Canadian colleague here. This was actually the first session that I went to on Thursday. Downloads are a very funky metric. We've talked about this on the show before. The definition of a download is starting to change by platform. The more important stat is what we call in radio TSL, time spent listening. And if you go into your dashboards on YouTube and Apple and Spotify, folk. You'll see how long people are listening. If you get a million people that download your episode and they're gone after a minute or two, who cares? If you've got 1000 people that are listening for most or all of the episode, that is a heck of a lot more valuable. So spend some time in your dashboards looking at your download consumption, and even look at your timestamps and see if there's a dip where and then it comes back up. People are skipping a feature or a host read ad or an inserted ad. And the the real crux of what Jennifer said was beyond the numbers. What is the goal of your podcast? What is the reason you started your podcast? That should be your definition for success. Is it a lead gen tool? Is it a marketing? Is it a branding tool? Think about why you started, and that's what you should measure your success off. The last tidbit from Jennifer that I loved was podcasting is the new coffee. If you ask somebody to meet for coffee, nobody has time anymore, but they can certainly listen to your podcast while they're doing something else to get to know who you are and all you're about.

David Yas  37:18  
I have a college friend who he always says, "Of because oh, you guys may not know, I do a music nostalgia podcast with a friend in college. It's called Past 10s. They were going to make you do it anyway, everybody. But is

Matt Cundill  37:36  
there video?

David Yas  37:38  
We can't go on YouTube with any regularity because of the copyright piece. Otherwise, we would. We do. We do shorts. The most bad

Johnny Podcasts  37:48  
show on YouTube.

David Yas  37:49  
That's right, man. That is Johnny's thumbnail for you. Yes, I love it. But we have a third friend who's a big fan of the show, and he says, "I love your show because I feel like I don't. I get caught up with you guys, and you guys saved me a phone call. So, but but I was just trying to amplify the point of getting a coffee. It's it's it's still the most valuable way to get to know someone that you don't actually know personally, in my opinion.

Matt Cundill  38:16  
All right, I was going to move on to a couple of them here. Where do I want to go next, Jag? Let's go to. I want to talk about Shannon Kayson from Motor

Jon Gay  38:25  
City. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  38:26  
homemade stories. And and if you've been to Podcast Movement before, he's been to eight of them, and on two of them, I think he was he was a keynote speaker. He's back again to give it to give another talk. And you know, this is one of the things that I forget that I need to to be reminded of, and so he got up and told a story about his you know just going to New York, and it took him about two minutes to do it. And all of his podcasts are really really short. The podcast is called Homemade Stories with Shannon Kason, and these are the four rules for every day is a story. And you know there's stories out there you can talk about things, but he just said focus on one day. If you want to tell a story, tell it about the last 24 hours. Be emotionally honest about how you feel in that in that 24 hours. And it's okay to be imperfect. And I've listened to a show, and there's some coughs and wheezes, and there's stuff out there. We spend a lot of time really fussing over making it perfect. At least I do, and it's to the point now where I feel that my shows can come off as pretty stiff, and he doesn't worry about that sort of thing. And in fact, his room has a little bit of echo. And I think when he started out, he had a sock over his microphone.

Catherine O'Brien  39:33  
That's the line.

Matt Cundill  39:34  
But the thing that he does about the show, he builds the show around the one thing during the day that was the moment of meaning. What is the one thing that happened today that he's really can take away? And he's very reflective, and he takes that. and he and the shows are eight minutes long, nine minutes long, and you know what? They're really good.

Jon Gay  39:53  
Shannon is. I've had a chance to meet Shannon a couple times, and he is just such a truly authentic human being. He's just good. People, somebody that I really enjoy being around. So I'm glad you're able to see his session, Matt. Can you repeat

David Yas  40:04  
the name of that podcast, please, Matt? Sorry, it'll

Matt Cundill  40:06  
be in the show notes of this episode. It is Homemade Stories with Shannon

Jon Gay  40:12  
Kason. C A S O N.

Matt Cundill  40:14  
Thank you.

Catherine O'Brien  40:14  
I remember the telling of that story of speaking into a sock that he was he got his big break on public radio, and he said, "If you were listening, you were listening to me speaking through a sock. That was

Jon Gay  40:26  
the

Matt Cundill  40:28  
he asked me about my show, and he said, "Well, how you making money? And I said, "Well, we've got some mid-roll spaces. But then I and he goes, "Yes, my big way to make money is speaking engagements, being out in the community, and and being known for the show and and being authentic, he can't do mid rolls. The show is seven eight minutes long, right? Jag, you had to sit through the. I mean, you you hung in right to the end, and of course, he's

Jon Gay  40:58  
being self deprecating when he says that, lady and gentleman? Because this was-I'm really glad I stuck around for the panel that Matt was on. So it was Matt. It was friend of the pod Jay Nacklas. It was Sarah Burke, our dear friend, and then the gentleman from Packer Locked On Packers, who Peter

Matt Cundill  41:15  
Bukowski.

Jon Gay  41:16  
Yes, and Matt, I thought it was a great panel, but I'll let you sort of describe it since you were in it.

Matt Cundill  41:22  
Yeah, so one of the things that Coleman Insights came up with is, would we be interested in a study about mental health? And we said yes. And so Jay takes, you know, with Coleman Insights, takes it out in the field and comes back with some pretty shocking numbers about how we're living now as a people. And remember, he's he's polling the podcast listeners. Back in 1990, there were only 3% of Americans that said they had no close friends. But by the time we get to 2021, thank you, COVID. That number goes right up to 12, and now it's up to 17 in 2024. So we've never been so connected because it's you know wherever you listen to podcasts, and how lucky are we to put the reels everywhere? But yet we're staying apart, and we don't even want to go for coffee with, you know, as Jen mentioned earlier on. So podcast listeners are feeling you know connected to both you know hosts and communities in ways that it's never happened before, and so the opportunity for podcasters is now to reach out and help them feel not so alone, and you do this, of course, through the community building. So whether that's you know on Patreon, whether that's you know getting together, you know I mean it was easy for Peter Bukowski because he's got you know the locked on Packers. I mean who doesn't love the Packers? If you're a Packers fan, you've got sort of a built-in community right there, and I think the the point that I really wanted to drive home for for people who are making podcasts is you know to really make everybody feel included in every episode. So you know if that means taking time to thank anybody who's listening to their show before the show starts, maybe they shared a post. Maybe you they sent you an email. Maybe they gave you feedback. Maybe they left you some rating, a rate and review. Maybe they've even you know donated or sent you money. Thank them. Let people know that this is a community and that your show has more than just one people listening. Give them the opportunity, whether it's a Facebook group or it's a Patreon, or even Reddit, or a Discord to get together and to talk to one another. You're never going to be able to say, "Okay, everybody, gather on this particular platform. They will do it for you if you're paying attention and you're offering up enough tidbits to do it. Another great opportunity, you know, go live at a consistent time, once a week to just connect with people. There's a lot of available audience out there.

Jon Gay  43:46  
The two stories that stuck out to me from that panel. Sorry, sorry, it was didn't come from Matt, but Sarah talked about the podcast she does with Jan Arden. You remember her insensitive in the '90s. She's huge in Canada, and she built a community for the podcast. Their community is called the Only Jans, which I think is brilliant. And then Peter talked about the Packers, and I think what's the line? Most rookies suck, Matt. Is that the line? Yeah. He he says that a lot in his podcast when talking about football players. Most rookies suck. When the NFL draft was in Green Bay, he had two brothers come up to him. They were wearing T-shirts that said most rookies suck, and they told him. Even more importantly, they were brothers, and as brothers do, they'd kind of drifted apart a little bit. But they both found out that each other listened to the podcast, and talking about the podcast helped them reconnect and come back together. And now, now they're two brothers with thick as thieves again. That's probably the highest comp one you can pay a podcaster.

David Yas  44:40  
It's a great story. It's great,

Jon Gay  44:42  
and it's a dovetail off of that. I was in a webinar today with Tim Bronsell from Point to Point Marketing and Hal Rude from Strategic Solutions Research. They presented, I believe, last year podcast movement. They talked about they talked about their podcast study for this year, and today's topic was the importance of a host. And to the point you were making. A moment ago, the the percentages of folks who will say they don't feel I have access to the host versus they do have access to the host. Good God, make it a two way conversation. If one of your listeners hits you up on a social on social email, whatever it is, as Matt said, great to thank him on the show, but at least respond to them. If you respond to them, you make their day. I mean, that was true of radio DJs back in the day. If you responded personally to a listener, you made their day. But it's true of podcast hosts too. If somebody's committing that amount of time and attention to you, and you are going to engage with them and have a back and forth with them, that will pay dividends down the line.

David Yas  45:36  
Yeah, they're 10 times more likely to tell somebody else about the show as we implore them to do the call to action. If if you know they're they're proud of that, you know.

Matt Cundill  45:49  
So I'm out of takeaways. Well, I might have one more. I might actually have one more. So this one actually came from the person who was talking with with Shannon. Her name is called Tricia Burt, Tricia Rose Burt. She worked in PR for many years, and then I think this is the most amazing thing: is she was offered an opportunity to use her voice on Z100, the biggest radio station in America. Somebody said, "Would you please come down and we'd like to use your voice? We maybe maybe there's a spot for you here on the station. She declined it, and she never really understood what would happen to her life. You know, had she taken that opportunity to go do it, I myself would have given you know anything to to have wound up on that radio station, one of the the biggest in America. Well, she did, and she actually wound up later in life, you know, doing a podcast, and she posted up a bunch of words. and Her podcast is called "No Time to Be Timid, and she wrote out a manifesto that was there for the first year. She said, "I'm only going to do about 1012, episodes just to get the podcast started. That is not it. That is it. Sorry for those who are watching, for those who are listening. I'll go through some of these because this is how she got podcast success, and that she had a manifesto that's outsider. And number one, the riskiest thing you can do is play it safe. Number two, there is more than one right way in life. Number three, don't expect a linear path. Number four, creativity is not a frivolous pursuit. Number five, logic can work against you. Six, practicality is overrated. Seven, constraints are opportunities. Eight, failure is your friend. Nine, there is courage and community. And number 10, make a mark now. I'm guilty the most of number five, which is logic can work against you. But I think this is a very good piece just to keep near. I'm going to keep it near for anybody who does want to start a podcast. I might just sort of remind them of a few of these things and maybe show them this to show because I think a lot of people, you know, don't understand when they get started what's going to happen. But this is the kind of stuff that could happen. I just thought this was worth taking a picture of.

Jon Gay  48:10  
I literally just do it by phone.

David Yas  48:11  
What's the What's an example of logic can work against you? I guess not. Um,

Matt Cundill  48:17  
I think thinking that something needs to be a certain way, so that could be many of the things we talked about today, including the you know the way YouTube slide needs to be that we have to do video. You know that there's some sort of logic. Well, if I do video, more people will watch, right? So logic says yes, do video because you'll put it out there, more people will see it, but at the same time, logic will work against you because now you got to. It takes three times longer and more expensive to go and do video, so that could work against you.

David Yas  48:50  
I don't know if this is an example, and apologies if I've mentioned this on this show before, but I have a client who he decided he was going to ask every guest at the end of the show three questions, including what's your favorite ice cream, and when I first heard that, I was like, "That's kind of the opposite of a creative question. But okay, go for it, you know. And we had guests showing up at the studio going, "Oh, I can't wait for the ice cream question. Like it became a thing, and then then I started keeping track of like which ice cream flavor was winning, and so something that was so simple and almost childish turned into like one of the most, you know, cherished parts of the show. So maybe that's an example of that. I don't know. It

Catherine O'Brien  49:30  
is. That's a great example. Also, if there's a clear winner, you can have the the freezer of the Pod 617 Studios stocked with that

Jon Gay  49:40  
sponsor opportunity. Yeah,

Catherine O'Brien  49:42  
exactly. No freezer.

David Yas  49:43  
We're working up to the freezer. Call to find people over

Jon Gay  49:46  
at Hood, David.

David Yas  49:47  
Ah, yeah. Baskin Robbins. Who knows?

Matt Cundill  49:53  
All right. So no, go ahead. I was going to say, if anybody has any questions about the stuff that other stuff, go ahead.

Catherine O'Brien  49:59  
I am. Logic with my own question as a reader and subscriber to Jags Substack, I have a quick question. So one of the things that really stood out to me was that you saw a maybe the the venue itself of podcast movement created some barriers for vendors and natural networking, and it-I was my one of my favorite pet issues of podcasting was triggered by that description of the setup, which is there's kind of two worlds of podcasting, and I know that for many years the number one reason that people went to podcast movement was meeting other podcasters and interacting and getting to know what people's shows are about, or what their issues are, or those kinds of things. So, can you talk a little bit about the interaction, meeting new people, that whole scene? How did that go down, Jack? I

Jon Gay  50:48  
saw you leave that as a comment on the Substack. So, thank you, Catherine. I, I think, and I'd be curious for Matt to take on this too. Yeah, there were. I jokingly called it the ballers and the plebes because the first two days were, I think, two grand a day for the big companies and partners of Sounds Profitable to be at the this big industry summit on Tuesday and Wednesday, and if you wanted to come Thursday and Friday as an independent, great. We'll make we'll knock the ticket down to 199 bucks because it's not expensive to go and stay in New York. So I think all in travel hotel ticket airfare. I think I ended about even for where I am most years, by with them offsetting that, which was nice. So, yeah, 199 bucks. There was no exhibit hall, so I usually like talking to the folks at Riverside and SimpleCast, the vendors I use, and other learning about other vendors. Beehive Ainsley was there, but they were kind of tucked off to the side. The event itself was a concert venue, not like a hotel conference area, so little dark and dingy, not as well lit. I did have a few one-on-one meetings. I was able to steal away and go upstairs and and have a couple of good meetings with some folks one-on-one, but it didn't foster that same engagement I think as it has in previous years. So I I'm I'm I'm not going to say I felt like a second-class citizen because that's too strong of a statement. But I, but I, but I think it did lose some of what it used to be. And but I will give credit to James Cridland and Tom Webster because I asked them last year, point blank in Dallas, face to face, "Is there still going to be a place for me next year? And they said, "Yes, there will be. You are a valuable part of this community. We will have something for you. And true to their word, they did, but it wasn't it wasn't you know the the same high event that the first two days were. Matt

Matt Cundill  52:29  
at $2,500, by the way, gets you in for the Sounds Profitable Business Summit.

Jon Gay  52:34  
Is that in addition to your Sounds Profitable membership?

Matt Cundill  52:37  
Yes, on top of that. So I mean I'm I'll tell you how I spent my money instead. I spent $2,500 instead, you know, with advertising in other places at the event. So yeah, so I thought that was just you know that's where that money just had just happened to go. I like the creators thing. New York City is interesting. The venue looked like an episode of Top 10 Time Machine, The Rock Edition from 2002 with Audio Slave and Rage Against the Machine. I mean, if you've ever been to, I, I felt like I, I mean, this is not a place I would take a date. No, you know, it, it looked. I thought I

Jon Gay  53:19  
should. You did, but no. I thought I should be going to the

Matt Cundill  53:21  
bathroom to to do some blow. Like it was, it was a little bit odd, you know. Well,

David Yas  53:28  
it it begs the question.

Jon Gay  53:31  
That's why the stalls stalls all had individual doors. I get it now. Okay, that's

Matt Cundill  53:35  
right.

Jon Gay  53:35  
In the sorry, Dave.

David Yas  53:36  
No, that's okay. In the three times I've gone to podcast movement, and I haven't been in a couple years, admittedly. But there was always a question lingering in the air: is who is who is it for? And I'm sure they've written that down somewhere, and I should go look and see. But it it it always felt like as if you were a let's say you were just an aspiring podcaster, and you just started up, you know, I don't know. You're an accountant, and you want to do something about the new rules of accounting, or whatever. It sounds it sounds compelling, I know. But and you were serious about it, like you mean, I want to put a little money behind this. I want to do a good job. Is do you go to Podcast Podcast Movement because it seems like a lot of it is a lot more about the industry of podcasting, but they do they mix in a bunch of stuff. They mix in enough to draw people, but I can see how a lot of people would show up and say, "I'm not so sure this was for me.

Jon Gay  54:30  
And I will say, to their credit, they reason they did it later in the year in New York because they wanted to be near the podcast upfronts because podcasts have upfronts just like networks do nowadays. So there is value in being in that place at that time, so I will, and because podcasting should have a bigger share of overall ad revenue than it currently does, so I will. I understand the logic there. For those of you on video, I apologize. The home plate shadow is coming over my face at this point.

Matt Cundill  54:55  
That's pretty good. I like that. Good job.

Jon Gay  54:58  
You'll never see my slider coming.

Matt Cundill  55:05  
I I miss the exhibit hall.

Jon Gay  55:07  
Yeah,

Matt Cundill  55:07  
and you know I miss the exhibit hall because I like to walk through to see what's new. I wonder if they're leaving too much money on the table by not having an exhibit hall. You know there was no microphones for sale. There was like none of the physical equipment was there. There was you know the descripts and the art 19 s and Beehive and software products. Yeah,

Jon Gay  55:30  
it's where it's where the t shirts would be for the rock concert. Yes,

Matt Cundill  55:32  
I didn't get a t shirt. I got a

Jon Gay  55:35  
hat. I got a hat from from someone. They always had

David Yas  55:38  
good t shirts. Well, both podcast movement and all a lot of the vendors for your T-shirts.

Matt Cundill  55:43  
But walking through the exhibit hall, I like to go and say, "And what does this do? And what is this? And why should I buy this? And just let people do their pitch. I like to see because it gives me an idea of how people are thinking about the tech side of this business and what new toys I could come back with and what I could could try out. There was, I basically went up to Descript and I said, "When are you sunsetting Squadcast and why is it never? So we had a talk about that. And

Jon Gay  56:12  
what did they say? I'm curious. Or they

Matt Cundill  56:13  
escorted you out of the building. Yeah, they're they're going to give it a year. They said, but they asked me if I would try rooms, and I tried it today, and it worked. It's okay. I listen. Squadcast is solid, man.

David Yas  56:27  
Worked.

Matt Cundill  56:27  
It's solid.

Jon Gay  56:29  
Dude, I heard they'd stopped supporting it because they were so focused on rooms. Is that true? Doing updates.

Matt Cundill  56:34  
That's true.

Jon Gay  56:34  
It's part of my reason I moved to Riverside. Quite honestly,

Matt Cundill  56:37  
I didn't see Riverside there.

Jon Gay  56:39  
They they were not.

Matt Cundill  56:40  
Nope.

Jon Gay  56:41  
I believe last year Riverside was and Descript wasn't. But I will say I'm just about committed at this point to go to the podcast show in London with Matt and May because from what Matt and what Jay what Jay Nakos told me, much much better conference. And we're gonna little wife and I are gonna make a little 10 year anniversary trip out of

Johnny Podcasts  57:00  
it. Did they say where the next podcast movement is going to be?

Jon Gay  57:04  
No, no, but I believe they may be locked into this location for a couple years.

David Yas  57:08  
What is the one in May? What who puts that on?

Jon Gay  57:11  
Oh, the podcast show in London. Yeah, is there is there somebody behind that, Matt? London.

Matt Cundill  57:15  
I don't know who the person is. The name eludes me right now, but they've been doing it for three, four years now, it's pretty solid. It's pretty solid. I do miss podcast movement being a summer camp, but I do understand a lot of people are on vacation and stuff like that. I find that most of the conferences post pandemic have found their way into the September area because radio had one. They had the last conclave take place in Minneapolis on the same at the same time, and I'm like, that is completely unhelpful to me to have those on the exact same day. So I was disappointed with that. But one of the things I always loved about podcast movement was was how it would go to some of the great American cities of the world. You know, the Denver's and the Dallas, and just getting opportunity. I'd love to see Philadelphia was a great one. I would love to see Nashville. I Nashville. I didn't get a chance to go to, but yes, exactly. I like Orlando. I would love to go for it to be in Boston. What about Raleigh? I'd love to go and and and and see there and Detroit Rock

Catherine O'Brien  58:16  
City

Johnny Podcasts  58:17  
Billings.

Matt Cundill  58:18  
Somebody suggested Indianapolis.

Johnny Podcasts  58:21  
Yes. Now they have the Final Four in Indianapolis, like every two years. They might as well because the NCAA is

Jon Gay  58:26  
headquartered there. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  58:27  
yeah. NFL. I went to I went to

Jon Gay  58:29  
I went to Super Bowl 46, the second Giants Patriots Super Bowl in Indianapolis, and I'll never get over. Feels like Indianapolis

Johnny Podcasts  58:36  
and Houston are like the only two cities that they're allowed to have championship Events.

Jon Gay  58:43  
Actually, the Final Four will be here in Detroit this year.

Johnny Podcasts  58:46  
Oh, that'll be fun.

Matt Cundill  58:48  
I won't knock them for for trying New York, and if it goes back, that's totally fine too. I I completely understand why it's in New York, but it it is stressful trying to strategize how to spend 4048 hours there.

Jon Gay  59:00  
I will say I went in Rome. I got a bagel. I got a great slice, and and David will appreciate this more than anyone here. But I always had a disdain for New York because the sports rivalries growing up in Boston, and I always just never wanted to go to New York. And this was my first time in New York in 20 years. Really, and and I was like, okay, I get it. There is a vibe here. It's like, okay, man, you're in New York right now, so I get it. I I hate New York a lot less than when I was a kid.

David Yas  59:25  
Oh, it's unlike any other city in the U.S. I think that's fair to say. There's

Jon Gay  59:29  
the quote: there are there are three cities in America: New York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. Everywhere else is Cleveland.

Matt Cundill  59:39  
Dinner there. I want to give a plug to a podcast event I'm going to be going to. It's going to be called It's Pod Summit YYC, and it's going to be taking place October 17 and 18 in Calgary, Alberta. Good for those of you in you know out west. Jordan Blair, I asked her. I said you should consider that Boise. That's not far to go to Calgary. If you'd like to go check that out,

Jon Gay  1:00:02  
she was great in her session. I give her a lot of credit.

Matt Cundill  1:00:05  
Yeah. All right. Any more questions? anybody Anybody experienced FOMO the way Jag and I have spoken a

Johnny Podcasts  1:00:15  
little bit? Yeah.

David Yas  1:00:17  
Yeah. Should have gone. I just I couldn't get my act together.

Matt Cundill  1:00:20  
Yeah. We've been talking actually about a lot of the changes that that have been made, but here's one that I think is probably the best move so far, and that sounds profitable, makes every session available, both the business summit and the and the sessions we've been talking about. So, if there's a session that Jag and I spoke about, I don't think they're up yet, but I will endure to get those sessions highlighted and put into the show notes, they'll be on YouTube,

Jon Gay  1:00:44  
I believe, right?

Matt Cundill  1:00:44  
They're yeah, they're going to go up on YouTube, and so sorry,

Jon Gay  1:00:48  
Catherine.

Catherine O'Brien  1:00:51  
I'm sorry. Is the irony not lost on? Am I the only one seeing the irony of this? Okay, now keep going. That

Matt Cundill  1:00:58  
they're going up on YouTube.

Catherine O'Brien  1:00:59  
No, just keep going.

Jon Gay  1:01:00  
Can we add like cartoon animation of Catherine's head exploding right now? I'm sorry,

Matt Cundill  1:01:04  
it just sailed right over my head. Catherine,

Johnny Podcasts  1:01:07  
why don't you spell it out for

Speaker 1  1:01:08  
us?

Matt Cundill  1:01:12  
No, I'm good.

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:15  
Okay, nope, nope.

Matt Cundill  1:01:16  
Come on, I need to know. I don't

Johnny Podcasts  1:01:18  
know. I don't know. Okay, the the

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:22  
whole first part of this whole recap, we're wrestling over podcasting. YouTube is not a podcasting medium, you know. Like, oh, Netflix is, you know, oh yeah, a third of the people are looking at Netflix and they're seeing podcasts there, and and there's no RSS feed. It's not a podcast, and you don't need to be on YouTube. And then, then at the end of all of this, we're get it all on

Matt Cundill  1:01:48  
YouTube.

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:49  
On YouTube,

Matt Cundill  1:01:50  
yeah.

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:51  
What

David Yas  1:01:52  
is we? I think we trust Netflix a lot more than we trust YouTube. What

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:54  
is the deal? Come on. Okay. Does it need more spelling out that there is okay. There is a there is a schizophrenia in podcasting that needs to stop. It really does. I I am stunned, and I can't believe you guys can't see the humor, just the dark humor of that situation, yeah, but I'm not

Johnny Podcasts  1:02:22  
anti YouTube.

Catherine O'Brien  1:02:24  
I'm pro YouTube. Yeah, I'm pro podcasting. I wish podcasting was pro podcasting. That's that's it.

Matt Cundill  1:02:33  
I I I for one totally get it. You could start an entire network and put all these in the in an RSS feed and have it hosted by Captivate or Art 19 or something like that. Yeah, I get that.

Johnny Podcasts  1:02:42  
Yeah, it really should be a podcast. There should be there should be the podcast movement. The podcast, and I'm happy

Matt Cundill  1:02:50  
to I'm I'm happy to give a takeaway on this. And the takeaway is that it's just too YouTube. Everything that we bitch about YouTube is because YouTube is easy to search. It's easy to use. It's easy to find. It's easy to upload. It's easy, easy, easy, and the other stuff is not as easy. And it's like people, yeah. It's the pathway to least resistance, and the pathway to least resistance with media is YouTube, and that's why they're eating everybody's lunch. All

Johnny Podcasts  1:03:17  
right, clip that last 30 seconds, whatever matt that whole spiel from Matt. Any of you guys that has a client or someone that's anti video in some way, you just send them that. Just listen. Okay, but here

Jon Gay  1:03:30  
it's easy for Catherine.

Catherine O'Brien  1:03:32  
I am not satisfied. I am not satisfied. Why? Okay, what Matt said is correct. Okay, why aren't? Why is podcasting not embracing that. I don't understand this. This is honestly, this is why I didn't go to podcast movement. They have lost the plot. They have absolutely this podcasting has lost the plot. That if if YouTube is that important, if YouTube is that dominant, then embrace it. We, you know, when you're looking at that screen with 28 downloads being the the 50 median, that is we can't sustain clients on 28 downloads, right?

Jon Gay  1:04:11  
Catherine, can I make a loving counterpoint without you jumping to the screen at me? No video. I

Catherine O'Brien  1:04:16  
am floored. I am floored. Yes, keep going.

Jon Gay  1:04:20  
You're looking at these presentations as podcasts. They are presentations with PowerPoint visuals to go along with it. They're not podcasts. They are presentations

Catherine O'Brien  1:04:30  
at a conference. Oh my gosh! Okay, whatever, whatever.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:04:36  
Thanks for listening. For show notes, transcripts, and the video version of this episode. Check out the podcast Super Friends at SoundOff dot Network. Edit.

Matt Cundill  1:04:49  
Okay, so this is Matt, and there are two things that you should know. When someone says whatever, it's never really whatever. And second, this is where. Decided to end the show. There was a little bit more, well, maybe a lot more. However, we had already gone over an hour, and we wanted to respect your time. If you want to know what Catherine meant by whatever, you can just slide down to the show notes, click on the word whatever, and it will take you to whatever. Then do us a favor, retweet it. If you do, we will definitely thank you on the next episode. Promise. Now, where were we? Oh yeah, we were gonna end this thing.