The Traveler’s Pulse: Understanding Ontario’s Tourism Moment

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:01  
Andrew, this is forward motion discussions about the important topic shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew sigward.

Andrew Siegwart  0:09  
Today's episode is all about understanding the traveler, not just where they're going, but how they're feeling, what's influencing their decision and what this means for the season ahead. I'm joined by two insightful and seasoned researchers, William shatten and Alex Mazanik, both founding partners at Context Research Group Inc, together, they spent decades helping organizations across sectors, including tourism, make sense of change and reduce uncertainty. We'll explore how they got into the space what recent research reveals about Ontarians, priorities and concerns and how US and international travelers are responding to geopolitical and economic pressures, from rising costs of living to tariffs and border perceptions. You'll also hear about real time consumer data tools that they've been developing, including the new Ontario Travel and Tourism monthly a direct response to what the sector has asked for during consultations for Ontario's New tourism strategy, as one of tayo S key consultation partners on the strategy context, research group has had a front row seat to the concerns and ambitions of operators across the province, especially small businesses. We'll unpack what both surprised and stuck with them since their time working with us, and of course, we'll close with our off the beaten path travel recommendations for your next Ontario adventure. This is a data rich, insights driven conversation that reminds us why listening to the traveler and acting quickly on what we hear is more important than ever. Let's dive in. Hi, Alex and William, thanks for joining us in forward motion. Yeah. Thanks for hosting us, Andrew, as we usually like to do in this show. Why don't you both give us a little bit on what got you started in the travel and tourism industry? Why don't we start with you,

Alexander Mazanik  1:49  
Alex, I didn't really start here. I guess in a way, you can say it found me, or I found it, but I actually began in political science. Job at a university has been in political science. So really working in kind of public opinion polling, election predictions, things like that. And as part of a market research firm, I worked in a division of that. And what really kind of got me excited about is this ability to kind of tell what people are thinking about issues, right? So if there's something big that's going on, like a cultural issue or political event, you can basically get a sense of how people react to it and how different groups react to it. And that was quite kind of an addictive feeling, and really drew that passion for insights that I then later took into more broader market research roles, working on hundreds of different research projects, and kind of common cliche in the market research space is that you get paid to learn. I definitely felt that I learned so many different things, and, you know, it was a really rewarding experience, but in the end of the day, kind of the real payoff for me has always been when insights actually kind of go somewhere, when they lead to action. And that's what drew me into tourism. It's a sector that cares. You can kind of feel that real connection. You can see how deeply people care about their communities, their visitor experience, their workforce. And you know, it's a real, tangible space to work in. It's energizing. And yeah, that's sort of what led me to want to do more, more of this work and to continue working in the sector. It's really rewarding, really interesting work. Yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  3:25  
and, you know, I think, you know, your your beginnings in political science, where, particularly in polling and election, you know, understanding everyday citizens, pressure, pressure points and needs and opinions. I feel like that's really taking center stage in marketing analysis today, probably more than it did even 10 years ago. We might have been a bit more product focused, or, you know, how do people react to my promotion, or how do they act to my destination? And today, what we're doing is a little more on understanding their needs, what's what, what their priorities are, and figuring out how we can align with them, right? So it's an interesting starting point for you. I think in the marketing space,

Alexander Mazanik  4:06  
yeah, for sure, it's, I think you drew a great connection there, and especially in this moment right now, like the last few months, I find myself kind of almost like pinching myself where this interest in politics and interest in the travel and tourism sector is really come together with all of this us, tension and things like that, I kind of feel like I'm the exact right place that I need to be. I've been, like, tailor made for this moment, yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  4:27  
for sure, yeah, I can say that I have. I've definitely felt That's that same observation, and we'll dive into that a little bit more, for sure. But thank you for that. And William, how about

William Schatten  4:36  
you? Yeah, thanks for asking. I came to came into the tourism kind of space in a bit of a roundabout way, as I feel, like probably a lot of people in the sector did, I grew up in Prince Edward County, and like a lot of people in that area, kind of spent my high school summers working at local wineries or farmers markets. So kind of from a young age, I had this, this front row seat to kind of a community transforming into a. What is now kind of a really strong destination. So it was exciting, but also very eye opening. Kind of saw firsthand how tourism can boost a local economy, create jobs, bring in new energy, but also kind of saw how it creates pressures around kind of key local issues like housing and infrastructure, also kind of maintaining the character of place for people who actually live there. Yeah. So that that experience kind of really stuck with me into into my professional career, and as I eventually started my professional journey, similar to Alex, it was in the political research space which gave exposure to lots of different sectors, lots of different policy areas and stakeholder environments, and over time, I just found myself gravitating more and more towards projects that involve tourism. Really felt like the right intersection to me, of like economic development, cultural preservation and kind of community well being. And for me personally, it was a very rewarding area of research. It's kind of rewarding to help market and spotlight all the incredible experiences that Ontario has to offer. There's so much richness here, from our vibrant cities to quiet, beautiful, rural escapes, so helping others discover that while also supporting the people who make it happen. That's what kind of makes the work so meaningful to me.

Andrew Siegwart  6:17  
And it's a really great sector and space to be specializing in for sure, because there is so much happening in this space. Tell me that's really interesting that you sort of grew up in the Prince Edward County area, so you would have seen quite a lot of a lot of change. What do you think has been the sort of the best thing that has changed

William Schatten  6:36  
there the migration of Toronto chefs to purchasing farms and having, you know, farm to table restaurant experiences out there, the food and culinary scene is incredible. And then also the coffee shops, yeah, it's, that's, that's what's really evolved for me. Obviously, you know, the winery, the wineries have kind of always been there, like I said, but the restaurant scene that's there now definitely wasn't there when I was, when I was growing

Andrew Siegwart  7:01  
up, and I would imagine that they're they're leveraging the agricultural opportunities that are all around. Do you know I was recently driving in another community that is sort of rural agritourism based, and I've noticed that there's been a resurgence of farms coming online that I haven't seen in the last few years, is that taking shape in Prince Edward County as well. Do you know? Just out of curiosity, yeah,

William Schatten  7:25  
yeah, absolutely. I mean, the one that stands out to me is right near where I live, Edwin county farms, which is connected to the Royal Hotel and picked in other examples as well, where restaurants are partnering with local farms, and then farms are actually like Edwin county farms actually having culinary experiences hosted on their farm, kind of looking for ways, and there's also an accommodation component of as well. Certain farms are offering, you know, farm experiences, countryside experiences that are on site as well. So it's farmers also just embracing this sector and looking at how they can offer kind of really cool experiences, immersive experiences on their site,

Andrew Siegwart  8:04  
yeah, yeah. It's, it's nice to see, isn't it? And I think whenever I see old farm spaces that were kind of fallow for a while, and you see a new, new, new team members coming in and and making that land productive again, and, and, and then the experience economy on top of it, it's good for everyone, for sure, absolutely. Yeah, it's been fun to watch Prince Edward County evolve and grow and become even more dynamic. One of the things that I've been really impressed with is how much work you both have been doing with some of your partners to get a good sense of what the Ontario consumer is thinking about and how they are feeling, particularly this spring, to understand their priorities and concerns. And Alex, as you mentioned in the shadow of the tariff discussion, tell us, what have you heard from Ontario's consumers? What's the mindset right now? Yeah,

Alexander Mazanik  8:51  
I mean, you're right, Andrew, we've been doing so much research on the Ontario consumer, but before I start talking about that, what I really want to do is I want to give a shout out or highlight destination Ontario's role in this who would have commissioned this work and who we partnered on this work with, and I think they've really stepped up as a thought leader in this space. They're not just promoting Ontario, but also they're clearly investing and understanding the people who live in Ontario and who travel here. So we're just so grateful to be their partner, and I think they're doing some incredible work right now,

Andrew Siegwart  9:21  
for sure, and at any time, and anytime you're looking at that data, first strategy, you're digging for insights. I mean, it's just going to drive a much better marketing outcome. So yeah, it's so great to see that taking place.

Alexander Mazanik  9:32  
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And also, just as a side note, for any kind of data nerds out there, everything that you know, we're going to talk about a bunch of studies here today, I assume. But all of that data, that reporting you'll be able to find on this nation, Ontario's corporate website and like CG website and our blog, and pay attention to do digest newsletter, it's all going to be in there. So it's not just here, it's there as well. Yeah, to your question, Andrew, basically, you know, what have we been hearing? And you know, we're really trying to understand. What's shaping people's travel decisions in this time, what they're excited about and what might be holding them back. And ultimately, there's kind of a deep emotional and financial current running through people's choices right now. For starters, of course, the cost of living is a major theme, housing affordability, day to day expenses, it always weigh heavily. These are real factors, right? So of course, it's going to be reflected in our work, and it's going to have an impact on travel planning, and this reality is directly impacting how people think about travel, not just in terms of budget, but in terms of value. Value is going to be a big theme, and it's been, it's been a theme in a lot of research that we've covered lately, whether it's Ontario or US or European Research, which hopefully we'll get a chance to talk about today. But value is a big, big theme. The good news is that that's where Ontario really shines. Residents describe travel in our own province as familiar. It's low stress, it's accessible. It's kind of like a safe adventure that's strong appreciation for kind of the local charm, nature and culture.

Andrew Siegwart  11:02  
I would imagine as travel can, especially the further you go, the more complex it can be. You know, you're traveling with families, you're going long distances. It can, it can be a bit overwhelming. And I think with families being overwhelmed in their day to day, looking for as you as you refer to it as safe adventure, safe travel is actually really appealing, because if you can take the stress level down while you're planning a vacation, you're actually going to get the R and R that you're looking for, as opposed to perhaps further away travel, which can be more complicated. So that that makes a lot of sense to me, yeah,

Alexander Mazanik  11:33  
yeah, for sure, it's, in a way, it's kind of the best of both worlds. There's a few other factors too, of course, that Ontarians are considering. One of the insights

William Schatten  11:41  
that really stood out to me is the strong appetite among Ontarians for things that feel rooted in Ontario, like tapping into things like local food, farmers markets, small towns, scenic drives. There's really kind of the sense of pride right now and what the province has to offer, and a desire to support, you know, our province, and support local especially when other travel options are less viable. And hitting on that theme that we talked about already is that there's definitely a drop in enthusiasm we're seeing right now with the Ontario traveler, when it comes to considering the US as a destination, from our recent studies, really only one in four Ontarians say that they're likely to cross the border for our leisure travel trip, which is quite a decline, and this is really as a result of, you know, financial as well as, more importantly, I think, the political concerns right now, of the current tariff conflict, and, you know, the issues between US and Canada right now, and there's a lot of kind of unease around that, and kind of feelings of being unwelcome, and the general vibe of maybe anti Canadian sentiment, perception of that. So that perception kind of really matters right now to the Ontario traveler

Andrew Siegwart  12:47  
by telling you that they have, like, sort of a interest in local pride in the province, how much of that sentiment do you think is really the result of the tariff piece, or is it more more deeply ingrained in Ontarians. You think that it's that kind of pride was there and this has just sort of brought it forward? Or do you think that there are other factors shaping that? For example, the emergence of more, more experiences across Ontario, better awareness, better marketing being done by the industry. Like, do you have any Did you get any sense of what's driving that?

William Schatten  13:21  
Yeah, I think you're tapping on a great theme there. And I think it's a combination of both, like, I think it's always been there. You know, Ontario's residents of Ontario are proud to be a part of this province, this beautiful province with a lot to offer. However, I think in the past, there's been a bit of a perception of, I've explored a little bit of Ontario, and I've done everything right where now, with, you know, organizations like this in Ontario, destination Ontario, for example, and other, you know, regional and demos, providing and marketing leveraging this, this hunger right now for for local travel, people are starting to realize that there's a lot that Ontario has to offer. And, you know, I'd be very surprised if I could meet someone who's experienced everything that this province has to offer. There's so much. It's so diverse, you know. And and one other point I want to talk about, about Ontarians and just on the US conflict. So for sure, we're seeing Ontarians not have this same level of appetite or desire to visit the US, but I will say that our study also found that we are still very welcoming of American visitors here, there's still that kind of classic Canadian hospitality, especially among older residents, who are more positive and very welcoming to Americans. So whereas younger Ontarians are maybe a little bit more reserved, but still neutral, maybe not as positive, but very neutral. So big picture, you know, we're seeing a population that's really kind of rooted and reflective of their travel behaviors and looking for what feels familiar and comfortable, you know, especially in this time of uncertainty and traveling within Ontario, really aligns with that mindset right

Andrew Siegwart  14:51  
now. Yeah, and that's an interesting distinction between older travelers and younger travelers, younger travelers that maybe have a bit different perspective. Do you have a Do you have a theory as. To why, maybe they may be a little a little more sensitive to the situation.

William Schatten  15:06  
Yeah, a few things. Older travelers are more likely to be snowbirds, and that's, you know, probably the most hesitant and resistant traveler segment to visiting the US. Younger travelers little bit more politically charged, politically motivated, the type of individual who's more likely to attend a political protest or sign a petition like there's all these kind of political norms that are more prevalent in younger individuals, so little bit more charged up and maybe not as tied and committed to a southern destination as the potential older traveler Maybe, and maybe also just less experience with their relations, right? And they've done less trips to the US, right? So, you know, because also, when you know, I'm sure we'll get to, when we talk to Americans, it's a you know, and we've seen stories in the news where people have, you know, in Windsor, for example, an American came up and paid for everyone's meal at a local restaurant as a form of, Oh, how nice apology to to the Canadians in that restaurant, right? So Americans who are visiting or, you know, saying, hey, you know, this isn't us. You know, it's not, you know. And often, maybe they'd say it's not who they voted for. But so, yeah, I think exposure to everyday Americans

Andrew Siegwart  16:19  
for sure. I was in, I was in St John's for work a while ago, within the last month or so, at meeting with my provincial and territorial colleagues. And we were, we were doing the I was getting screeched. And there was people there from from all around the world. I should, I should explain, screeched is a thing where you become an honorary Newfoundlander in a in a local pub, where you kiss the cod, you do some rum. It's actually a lot of fun. And there are people from all around the world. And there was a few folks who were there from, I think one woman was from LA, one was from San Francisco, and everyone kind of clapped for them. And I just thought that was so nice, and it was organic, right? So that's, I think that says a lot about who we are. It was, it was sweet. I also think it's interesting to think about that. So snowbirds, I don't know we've given enough time to explore that, like you've been traveling there every year for many years. You might own property there, you've built friends ships there, you've got your favorite restaurants. And so I would have thought that that would have been more sticky, and so people would have wanted to continue to stay, but I guess there's a sense of maybe a bit of betrayal, or a sense of being profoundly let down, which has caused them to change. What's your read of that? Do you think it is that that deep?

Alexander Mazanik  17:31  
I think it's the power of the moment, right? And it's in terms of making predictions to the future. You know, it's sort of like a fool's errand to do that, but in terms of just figuring out what's going on right now, I think it'll be wise to say that different demographics will respond differently to the moment, and maybe going back slightly, here is what it means for Ontario. Is this moment of kind of introspection, where maybe this is here, that it just makes you focus inwards and realize that this is a great place. And something we actually heard in the feedback from our studies is that there's lots of kind of qualitative feedback saying that I used to think that real adventure, I had to go somewhere, right? But really it's all here in Ontario. So that's kind of one element of the moment. Is it focus, has people focus inwards, which is, I think, great. The other is how different segments of the population respond to it, and whether that response is going to be long lasting, right? So I think we're kind of definitely lived through a moment of early spring where I think there was lots of reaction to this. There was a big moment to, you know, shopping Canadian and things like that, and that was also reflected, I think, in the political messaging at the time, but it's definitely starting to seem like at least some of the harsher narratives are, you know, maybe going away, right? And so perhaps, looking back at this next year, this moment that we're seeing right now is very powerful, is going to have a slightly different, different

Andrew Siegwart  18:55  
narrative as we go forward, for sure. And I think, I think that's a really great point like and it's insightful for all of us, is what you've tracked is that consumers have been more introspective, maybe, than they have been about making these types of decisions, and so that's something for us to tap into and understand and see how that that transpires over time. Okay, talk to us. You've also been having good conversations with us travelers to try to get a handle on on their their reaction to the situation, and how they're perceiving coming to Ontario or other or destinations in Canada. So share with us what you've observed there. Yeah, for

William Schatten  19:31  
sure, kind of building on, you know, the work that we did for the Ontario we wanted to do the flip side of this. And, you know, in the recent months, we've run two separate waves of research with American travelers, what we refer to as, kind of like our US pulse studies, so kind of a pulse of the of the current potential traveler. And this is with, this is with key markets to Ontario. So this isn't like a, you know, a nationwide study of the US. This is really the key markets, the US, drive us fly markets that are. Relevant to to our province. We're really kind of looking to explore how they're feeling about visiting Ontario. And ultimately, on the surface, the story is positive. Ontario's image still remains very solid. Americans see it as safe, attractive and accessible, and more than half say that they're still likely to take a leisure trip here in the next year. And that number held steady across both of our waves, so over, over a period of a few months, and then when we kind of dug a little bit deeper, there's, there's a bit of a more complicated or a nuanced picture that emerged, kind of, in the second wave, we saw a sharper decline in how American travelers, kind of how they felt they would be in Canada. There was, you know, a slight idea or sentiment that, you know, there might be some anti American kind of behaviors or sentiment this kind of background worry was, you know, one of the top sided deterrents or potential barriers to visiting here.

Alexander Mazanik  20:53  
Yeah, for sure, there's so much to unpack here, right? Really, the the idea of this anti American sentiment, this isn't based on, like, bad travel experiences, right? Like, it's, in fact, when you do talk to people who have been here, they've got nothing but good things to say, right? Like, they still see Canadians as friendly. You still get good customer service, but it's really more about this kind of political climate and uncertainty about how Canadians feel about Americans right now, you know, and while we're still seen as a safe and accessible destination, there's just that, you know, emotional barrier, like, will I be welcome, right? And something we've talked about lots is that in the in analyzing the US traveler, it's important to understand that there's sort of decades of norms that are established, right? And they're not going to disappear overnight, but there's going to be some turbulence, and some, you know, things that people are going to be concerned about just for the moment, right? And then how we tackle that moment is, is quite

Andrew Siegwart  21:52  
important. And I think what you're you're also encouraging all of us to think about is that this is a moment, but it doesn't mean it's the future. And so that's the challenge, right? Is responding and rising to the challenge, but, but remembering that those norms can return and you still want to, you want to sort of be thinking about both dynamics. I curious. So when we started our conversation, we talked about, you know, the power of data and insights to then help us make some changes, and maybe, you know, meet the moment. And one of the things that I have been observing since that time, because we did a poll with our members across the province, and we had some similar insights that correlated to what you were seeing in terms of that little bit of a pullback in your second pulse. And we saw that from operators, where they saw a bit of a drop in bookings for summer 2025 but in the last I'd say, four weeks or so, I have been observing a number of campaigns that have been dropped into the US by a number of local destination marketing organizations. I know destination Ontario has been putting messaging out, and I'm hearing anecdotally from some regions. Windsor, you mentioned, I heard from from that Southern Ontario region that it looks as though we're starting to see a booking pace improve for summer from the US. So I think we're going to be doing another survey soon to sort of get the measures there. But have you been seeing any of these campaigns, and do you think the industry has done a decent job in meeting the moment and getting that messaging out? There? Any thoughts for what's been taking place since?

William Schatten  23:20  
Yeah, yeah, for sure. One of the one of the key findings that we found in our US Paul studies is that there was some variation by segment. And the two key segments here are the US drive market and the US fly market. So us drive is really kind of any, any area that's within, like, a three hour drive to the border of Ontario. And the kind of key us fly markets for us are the bigger kind of metropolitan and urban hubs nearby. So it's New York City, Chicago elements like that. So on the drive market, we found that the biggest barriers were around Value, Customer Service and border ease. Now organizations like do or DMOS or RTOS can't really impact border the process there, and often, I think the border issue is actually coming back into the US rather than entering Canada. Yeah, but one thing they can leverage is the value side. So for example, do launched a campaign in key drive markets where they had a live ticker of the exchange rate to kind of demonstrate that, hey, your dollar goes further here in Ontario. So it's not, it's not a messaging or marketing initiative around, hey, we're on sale. It's more, just like we offer exceptional experiences, and your dollar can go further, and you can experience more here for the same, you know, same budget as you would if you stayed in domestically. So I think that was an effective kind of leverage of it where now shifting gears to the other market, the fly markets. You know, their their key barriers were really around the political neutrality, or at least these were kind of factors that influenced their decision making process. It was the political neutrality and the sense of inclusion that mattered more. And Ontario was scoring really high on that aspect. So we weren't actually seeing drops. Dollars in fly travel, and even, you know, border crossing Data from Statistics Canada reflected that the fly market is still pretty consistent and stable. The reductions in US travelers were really from the drive market. We're typically seeing, on average, about a 9% month for year over year, comparison to last year, a reduction in kind of us drive visitors. So yeah, I think it still, still makes sense to advertise in those fly markets. Their behaviors aren't changing. They really like that. We're an inclusive, politically neutral destination. Yes, often aligns with their values. But where there's an opportunity is in the drive market. And I think initiatives like what destination Ontario was doing is really kind of capitalizing as much as you can on those travelers.

Andrew Siegwart  25:40  
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think what I've seen in some of those, those drive markets and the destination marketing organizations that are quite close to the border, they have been putting messaging in which talks about value, but also talks about, you're welcome here, and we want you to come and you're safe here, and version of, you know, arms open. And so I think the combination of all those factors is likely hitting those markets when they need it. So I think that's good. Yeah, I think it's a good example of where when we have good data and insights and we share it, we can be more effective. So that's good. Well, I guess we'll we'll see pretty soon, when we get the next round of numbers for summer, how, how that's all worked. But to your point earlier, Alex, this is actually quite fascinating and an interesting experience to be able to pulse check quite frequently to see how this moment transpires, and then what we can learn from it, right?

Alexander Mazanik  26:27  
And one thing I do want to flag is that travel intent has been steady, right? Like people do say that they want to travel in the next year or so, it's the challenge here is converting that travel intent Right? Like, that's I just want to make sure that the numbers that we're seeing, they're kind of not misleading, right? Because people are saying they want to travel doesn't mean that they necessarily will. So converting that is the challenge. And, you know, we're navigating lots of elements around that, but I think something we started touching on just a second ago is that the thickening of the border element, right? And just like, how to navigate that.

Andrew Siegwart  27:02  
And I would imagine the one of the big drivers to move from intent to conversion is the value like you highlighted so understanding that that people on both sides of the border are still managing cost of living and various challenges, and there have been some cost increases with with a tariff disruption. So anything that's value driven is probably a good incentive. Is that? Is that a fair assumption to make

Alexander Mazanik  27:29  
100% it needs to be worth it, right? Like it needs to be worth it needs to feel like an experience that's worth doing. Because if you're spending money, that's discretionary spending, right? Like it needs to be something that you really want to enjoy doing, and so worth it is a huge element there.

Andrew Siegwart  27:43  
It's funny. I've been, I've been speaking to a number of media outlets about the Canada strong pass, and I think that what the federal government has done is sort of pulled together some of their iconic brands and experiences, so parks, Canada via rail, and a number of others. And they've, they've put some discounts and free access, and that's exactly what they're trading on as well, is the, you know, iconic places, but value and and savings and so it's, it's likely the right, the right approach for the moment, too. Thank you for that. That's that's really insightful, something we're all tracking. But you gave us a lot of nuance there. So I really, I really appreciate that. One of the other things that you've been looking at also are international travel or perceptions, and so you're also doing some digging on those markets for us. So what, what insights have you learned? And what should we be aware

William Schatten  28:32  
of? Yeah, absolutely, we've been, we've been looking pretty closely at some key international markets, particularly in Europe. And our most recent study, we kind of went into three different European markets, the UK, Germany and France, which are all kind of high priority regions with a strong kind of history of outbound leisure travel to our province. And they kind of give us also just a Bible window into the broader European sentiment, I think so. And we really structured our most recent study actually leveraging destination Canada's new traveler segmentation program, which they launched last year. So we focused on four key segments that were identified by DC as being high value in those markets. It was outdoor explorers, refined Globetrotters, culture seekers and city trippers. And what we found when in those markets, among those segments, those high value segments, that Canada and Ontario specifically are very well positioned right now in the mind of travelers in those countries. So there's, there's a really kind of strong awareness and positive sentiment towards Canada, Ontario, and more and more granular down to Toronto as leisure destinations. And right now, we tested against some comparator countries. We're more favorable than Australia, Japan and the United States in overall appeal as a destination. And they really very interesting. Did they say? Does it share? Why? Yeah, there's, there's a few factors. And ironically, if we want to rank them, the US has bought. Of the list right now. So, okay, okay, sentiment that's present right now among Ontarian travelers is also present in the US travelers, but the factors that were most appealing for our country and our province as a destination was our natural beauty, kind of vibrant and welcoming cities, and then also this sense that we're open and inclusive and aligned, I think importantly here, aligned with their values, aligned with their culture. They can kind of see themselves reflected here, and I think that's a significant barrier right now for us. So one other key aspect we wanted to test here is, do they see Canada as a distinct destination from the United States. And, you know, Oh, are they interested in kind of visiting here as a independent destination and not part of a broader kind of North American trip? And we found that that was true. That was the case. We were distinct from the US, and they, many, as I said, were also preferring Canada as a destination over the US, tying into, you know, this the political climate that's presence in the US, as well as a sense of solidarity with Canada right now, given the shared impacts from things like us tariffs,

Andrew Siegwart  31:08  
that's that's really great to hear and very presents an opportunity to for us to be reaching out to those markets and telling the stories a bit more. You.

Andrew Siegwart  31:23  
I wonder. You might not have the data in front of you, but even if you have an anecdotal sense, do you think that that has that represents a change? So seeing Canada is a distinct from the US in terms of visiting North America. Would you say prior to this time that travelers from those countries might have been more willing to sort of include both countries in their North American visit. Did you think that represents a change, or is that something that maybe is a bit more enduring? Yeah,

Alexander Mazanik  31:49  
I think yes and no, right? So first of all, Europeans famously good at geography, right? So they they they know where their countries are and all that. And, of course, also famously kind of an ocean apart. And so when you come here, just makes sense to go to both places. And in fact, when we ask the question is, do you want to come to both places? The answer is, is yes, basically right, it makes sense to plan a joint destination. And so historically, that would, of course, be the case. But again, the moment now is that this alignment, right where us, is basically exuding pressure on its European partners, on Canada and so countries that are that feel the pressure, they're starting to come together, right? And they start to separate themselves from the US, and then we're seeing that in the travel behavior as well. Do

Andrew Siegwart  32:33  
you have a sense, you know you talked about, and I know these are talking to different folks, but when you talk to Ontarians, you know they were looking for, as you mentioned, safe adventure. Would you say that in some of this feedback you're receiving from the European countries, that that dynamic is also shaping, shaping these decisions? So political solidarity, aligned values. But do you think there's a sense of, yeah, but there's a safety factor? It's going to be easier for me. I can predict it more.

Alexander Mazanik  32:59  
Yeah, yeah. I'd say so. I mean, Canada is known for that, you know, it is a safe place. It's also an inclusive place, right? So, you know, you're not going to kind of be in trouble culturally or anything like that. So for sure that that factor is there, I think it's one of the foundations of what makes Canada a great travel destination. It's accessible as well, right? Great infrastructure. So all of these are, are big factors. And what I actually want to add to this is the overarching theme for us here has been this idea of kind of like value, and it being worth it, and something that we've been seeing in the data, and it was puzzling in the way, but anytime we ask the question, in this case, we're talking about the European study, but you know, something like, are you going to spend more, more money on travel the next 12 months, less money on travel, or the same amount of money. So or are you going to travel more, less or the same? And we'd find that the answers would be basically split into almost equal thirds. So you're not getting an indicator. It's sort of like, is he in the balance? And you know, we wanted to explain that. Understand why this is going why this is going on. Just provide some context, ultimately. And to this end, we looked at European Central Bank's consumer expectations survey. It's a bit of a mouthful, but basically it gives us a read on how Europeans are feeling about their spending and saving plans in the year ahead. And basically what it told us is that travelers in Europe are holding two ideas at once, all right, so many say that they want to spend more meaningful experiences like travel, but at the same time, they're still feeling pressure from perceived high inflation. Interestingly, they feel the inflation is higher than it actually is, yeah, income uncertainty and tightening access to credit. All right, so in the end, today, it's that split mindset. If some people are ready to book and travel, they've sort of waited long enough they feel maybe right now the inflation is low and it's getting higher or whatever, so now's the time to spend the money. You got to do it, and maybe they have access to credit, which is a limiting factor, but others are still. Cautious, right? They're watching their budgets. Maybe now is not the right time. You're uncertain. It makes sense, right? You're not expecting to make more money in the next 12 months. So it's sort of this balanced, cautious approach. And ultimately, this ECB data just confirms what we're already seeing. The demand. It's real. It's a real thing. And the travel intentions are high, or, if you look at the European data, right? They want to travel. But again, it's just converting that right into experience that's valuable and it's worth it, and it's also attainable.

Andrew Siegwart  35:27  
I wouldn't I could interpret that in a way which is that customers need a little more from operators, from businesses, from destinations, and from everyone in the in the space giving offers, which means we have to, we have to do our best to meet them where they are, and encourage them and bring product to the table that maybe will entice them. So that might be us looking at our offerings in a different way. Do you would you suggest, like if you were running a tourism business? Is that what you would do, would you play with your offer a little bit, or would you just sort of stand by as they as they get more comfortable? Like, do you think it's this type of situation is worthy of an intervention beyond just marketing? So, you know, could be discounting, packaging, other incentives?

William Schatten  36:14  
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I think, again, we don't want to necessarily give the impression that Ontario's on sale. But I think, I think it's a marketing approach tied with a packaged experience, right? So marketing tying into some of the key themes here that, you know, we're very welcoming, aligned with, you know, the open arms sentiment here that you know, maybe not, not necessarily, they would get the same way if they went to visit the US, and then tying in and really emphasizing the value and the types of experiences that they can have here in Ontario, right? So I think it's a combination of both, so really communicating effectively the value of the experiences they would have and tapping into this, you know, shared kind of cultural values that we have with these European travelers that really kind of sets us a little bit apart from what's currently the climate in the US.

Andrew Siegwart  37:07  
For sure, it is. It's interesting. You mentioned the perception versus the reality of cost or inflation, and likely that is a bit of a hangover from what we've experienced over the last few years. But do you do? Either of you have a, have a have a thought about how to break through when perceptions don't match reality. And I, because I feel like it's happening more and more in our culture, and so I feel like we need to figure out how to break through. There any any thoughts or points of view? Yeah,

Alexander Mazanik  37:39  
for sure. So one thing I'm sure will has thoughts on this as well. Al, but what I find is that this idea that you can kind of change a perception, I think it's possible, but I think also what's powerful is understanding that there's always going to be people on both sides of that perception, so people who would have shifted to think that, okay, actually, I thought things are more expensive, but really they're not, right? But there's always going to be people who are going to stay with that perception. That's literally what we're seeing in the ECB data, right? Where some people, the fact that some people think that something is higher than it is, that's just going to stay and need to adapt to that reality, right? So hoping to change their point may not actually change. You should try to do some of that effort, but in the reality and the end of day, you have to respond to the actual situation. Yes, that's good advice. And

William Schatten  38:29  
I'll just add, I think really a strategy that we've seen success in is just reframing the conversation, shifting from cost to value. So again, just tapping into this whole sentiment here like we're not, we're not advocating or recommending that anyone kind of pitch the Ontario is on sale or elements like that, but it's really communicating the value of the experiences you have here, and just really emphasizing that the types of experiences you get and how you know dollar often also the same US versus European markets, your dollar often goes further here as well due to exchange rates. So I think tapping into to those themes

Andrew Siegwart  39:07  
for sure. And I guess for for businesses large and small, there are so many great channels to you know, I can interpret demonstrating value by telling your story as best as possible, right? And there's no one better than a business operator to really be excited about what they offer and to really highlight the benefits. So this is where, you know, using those social channels, the digital channels, and just really being more apt, maybe more active and present. Can, can really make that, make that connection

Alexander Mazanik  39:34  
and just conversion, right? It's conversion, yeah, is there converting? So packaging things and, you know, financing, maybe financing options, making it easier to kind of validate the purchase. That's right, make that purchase, yeah, that's

Andrew Siegwart  39:47  
good. That's good advice. That's what we need to be thinking about. How are we converting? What are the tools that we can use? And you gave some good examples there. So following that train of thought when we're talking about, you know, business operators and in different key markets. Is, you know, what kind of data do you think tourism businesses need to be collecting right now, or what are the opportunities for them to get on the ground and localized insights?

Alexander Mazanik  40:10  
Yeah, that's a it's a great observation and kind of great question. And the answer is, you know, the good data, what is the good data that everyone needs? And that's been sort of the biggest takeaway, one of the biggest takeaway, takeaways for us from the past few years and honestly, through some of our most recent work, is that how critical good data is. And across the sector, we've been reminded that if you're not close to your traveler, you're not just missing the insight, whatever that might be. You're ultimately are missing the opportunity, right? And as the pace of change speeds up. Things are moving quickly. There's lots of uncertainty. So do the expectations for insights, and so do the opportunities? And people want to know what's happening sort of right now, right? And they want it to be relevant to their business, to their use case, and not kind of obscured or buried in national averages or regional averages or sort of generalized global trends that maybe you know are just hard to understand. How do I apply that to my use case? All right, so that's that's the problem. I think making data relevant, making it the good data, quote, unquote, that you need. So the way we kind of operate as CRG is we understand that that's a problem, and we're trying to solve for this problem. And with this in mind, we're launching a new product, and we're calling it the Ontario Travel and Tourism monthly, and it's a new continuous study built specifically for the sector and specifically for for Ontario. We're really excited about that. I think it's going to have a lot of value. And ultimately, where it's coming from is that we're heard from a lot of partners that there's too much data out there, and a lot of it either comes too late or doesn't apply to their markets, like I was just mentioning. And our goal with our new product is to cut through the noise and give Ontario tourism sector something that it can actually use. We're launching a monthly tracking program that's focused on the segments that matter most to Ontario. So it's going to be us drive and fly travelers the markets that make up, of course, a big part of the international picture. And within Ontario, we're focusing on key demographics who are actually traveling, right? So focusing on the segments, not just sort of any residents, but people who are most likely to engage with the sector. So really, that meaningful, meaningful insight, that's great. And so you're looking at having that roll out on a monthly basis, and are you going to be providing insights at a regional level or a sectoral level, like, how will that look?

William Schatten  42:29  
Yeah, yeah, for sure, we're we're going to be kind of rolling this out. We're going to provide definitely, kind of macro level context on certain elements, like general kind of travel or sentiment, sentiment around economic issues, like we've been talking about political issues, you know, border issues, perceptions around safety, climate, things like this, as well as like leveraging practical insights, like where people want to go, what they value and what's involved in their decision making process, on travel. And then we're, we're tying this in. So like Alex mentioned, we're really making this focused on the Ontario tourism sector specifically. So we're just incorporating key markets that are relevant to the Ontario tourism sector, and then we'll be able to break this down by the key components and areas and regions of Ontario as well. So we're really our goal here is to make this as practical and applicable to you know, operators down at the ground level, all the way up to, you know, like the ministry at that, the higher levels here. So no matter where you are in the space, in the sector, there's going to be important information in our data that will help benefit you and help inform your decision making process in the space, you know. So that's really the goal of this initiative. I

Andrew Siegwart  43:43  
like it and and I like where you're going, because what you're you're going to be bringing insights from potential visitors and the markets that matter. So at the end of the day, that's more important than the geography or the sub sector could, but it'll, it'll percolate to that. But really it's about helping us all think about the customer and get that knowledge that we need in real time. So that's that's pretty exciting. And you know, thinking about our Ontario tourism strategy, which we worked very closely with, and you were our consulting partner, and thank you both very much for the exceptional work that you've done, but this was one of the outcomes, one of the some of the recommendations, which was to get better, more frequent data. So we're really excited that you're going to take the lead on a project like this, and I think you're going to be able to provide an opportunity for some of our members to access that as well. Correct

William Schatten  44:32  
absolutely for sure our report that's going to come out in mid to late July. Anyone listening to the podcast or members of tayo can just use the promo code tayo on our site, and you'll get access to the July report, you know, for no cost. So everyone amazing, everyone in the sector, can benefit from

Andrew Siegwart  44:51  
the report. Thank you so much for that. We'll include it in our show notes, and then we'll, we'll work together as that evolves to see how we can help connect more. Operators and businesses and provide that value. I think it's excellent, very exciting stuff. And you know, it really shows the the level of connectivity and understanding that you have of how important understanding the consumer and how with what their what their emotions are, what their priorities are, and then how we can bring that, as Alex has reminded us through this conversation to focus on what matters, which at this moment, is conversion. So very, very helpful. Let's talk a little bit about the Ontario tourism strategy as we wrap up. As I mentioned, it was so great to work with your team on that project. And you know, I've done a lot of consultation in my career. This is probably one of the biggest in terms of touch points and making sure that we went ground up, talked to operators and really got the full scope. And I know it was not easy, but I know you did an exceptional job with your team. I'm wondering, before we get into the nuts and bolts of it, you were the folks who really spoke with our with our industry partners, a lot of the operators in all areas. I'm wondering if you could share with us some of your observations on the state of tourism operators right now and tourism businesses like, what are their priorities? What did you read from them at this point in time while you were having such deep conversations

William Schatten  46:15  
with them? Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I want to say we're honored to partner tayo on the development of Ontario's tourism strategy. And like you mentioned, this project really brought us into conversations with hundreds of passionate tourism operators and indigenous partners from every corner of the province. And really what what stood out to us, I think, and I'll pass over to Alex to get his thoughts in a moment, but what at least stood out to me was the deep resilience and optimism that we that we heard from the sector, especially among smaller businesses, and you know, this is in light of the enormous challenges they faced, you know, in recent years, for sure, and kind of what we heard from operators, especially smaller and rural operators, is that they're really navigating some difficult, tough realities right now. There's, there's kind of common issues that they're facing, like workforce shortages, accommodation issues, kind of maybe inconsistencies and the types of supports or collaboration that's available to them, and really kind of limited transportation infrastructure to serve their destinations, particularly, again, the rural destinations. This was the key testament So with all these challenges, I just want to make sure I'm communicating that the key kind of sentiment, though, wasn't, you know, sense of resignation, though. It really was a sense of resolve, right? There's, there's a real appetite among our operators right now, in the province for innovation, kind of Smarter marketing and looking for ways to build capacity. They're they're really eager to co create new experiences, especially ones that kind of showcase their local or indigenous stories, and to really kind of engage in a more coordinative, coordinated, kind of inclusive planning approach for tourism. For sure, that is

Andrew Siegwart  47:54  
exactly what I what I read from, from all of the all of the input and and it's really fun to see us. We're at a point now where we're just wrapping the implementation planning and we're about ready to launch. I think this is the slowest launch campaign. I've pretty much shared so much about what what the strategy looks like already with our members. But actually that's part of the part of the an important process is, is getting the information out as soon as possible and really socializing it.

Alexander Mazanik  48:21  
Yeah, another. Another insight that resonated was a desire for balance between growth and sustainability, so sort of between visitor attraction and community well being so many operators told us they want to grow responsibly and they want tourism to contribute meaningfully to their local economies, but not at the expense of kind of cultural integrity or established norms, right? So not really disturbing kind of adding to prosperity and not disturbing the community too much. But to make that happen, of course, operators need realistic support, so share tools and provincial leadership on sustainability standards,

Andrew Siegwart  48:56  
for sure, and that was something that we there was a question mark when we started this consultation would operators across the province, you know, responding to what was sort of happening in our on our political discourse around sustainability and cost of, you know, costs and business pressures, there was a question mark whether or not that would still remain a priority. But it did. It came it came forward in really every region. Do you have a sense of why? Why do you think the operator who is juggling so many of these sort of challenges but still remaining resolute and resilient? Why do you think it's been important to them to keep focus on that when in many instances, a lot of a lot of that discourse has sort of been on the sidelines for the last six months or so. What's your take? Yeah,

Alexander Mazanik  49:42  
I think it's definitely, maybe not surprising, but certainly great to see it stay on the agenda, right? And I think the reason for that is what we talked about earlier on, is that tourism is a sector that's connected to the power of place, and I think people that operate within. Nine your operators, they really understand that connection to their community, to the environment around them. And as we saw, you basically can't remove that element from the equation. Yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  50:10  
absolutely it is. It is a factor of who we are. We are place based, and those those surroundings matter.

William Schatten  50:16  
Yeah, for sure, like Alex mentioned, there was definitely a high interest in sustainable tourism. And this doesn't just mean environmentally sustainable, but also social and economical kind of sustainability as well. Right? Operators really kind of felt that they want tourism to enhance kind of local well being, help preserve cultural heritage and align kind of with their community's values, right? And many of the stakeholders that we spoke to kind of emphasize that some of these certification programs or sustainability tools, they didn't feel that they were super accessible. So there's definitely an opportunity for more support around some of these tools and resources could potentially help out our small and rural operators across Ontario and really kind of tap into this desire that we heard to do the right thing, but just providing that support that's practical and also

Andrew Siegwart  51:05  
proportionate. I also think that, and this is where we have to give a lot of credit to the tourism businesses that work. They know their customers very well, and they know that consumers are asking questions about sustainability. They know that social responsibility and diversity and inclusion matter, and they hear it from their customers, to hear from their employees. So I find it really interesting how ahead they have been in guiding us on this strategy. When you talk about some of the some of the feedback we're receiving about brand Ontario and brand Canada, when you look at European markets, or, for that matter, even for the American consumers who are who are giving us a lot of love and attention right now, they're highlighting that as our special sauce, so to speak, one of our brand attributes. So I think it shows how, how dialed in the industry has been, and maybe that's why some of that, that that forward thinking and innovation is has been, remains in the strategy. So for us, it's really exciting to push that forward, and I can tell you both, this will probably make you happy when we when we're having conversations with policy makers, we're reminding them of that when we talk about the results of this strategy, to say, you know, our industry values these aspects of our culture and community, and we need to maintain them and protect them. So it's a good example of where your work is influencing policy on so many other fronts. The other piece, which I found really interesting is how important access and transportation is, and conversely, when it's not there, how challenging it is. Could you maybe share with us for any of the conversations you had where where, you know, give us a flavor of where, when transportation infrastructure is missing. It really hampered some of their ability to grow. For

Alexander Mazanik  52:48  
sure, we definitely heard that in our feedback, and it kind of goes in the category of when we undergo consultations and we speak with multiple stakeholders and operators, there's an element of the certain things that you kind of expect to hear, and there's other elements that are perhaps a bit kind of surprising. And I do find that as part of research, you are looking for those kind of aha moments, and you need to be open to those, to those ideas. There were a number of those for us as we were undergoing consultations, and one of them did relate to transportation and so but one specific angle, which is is that how strongly small operators link transportation and workforce issues. Transportation isn't just about getting visitors in, which is how we think about a lot of the time, right? It's also essential for attracting and retaining staff, and that kind of systems level thinking was consistent across lots of our consultations and businesses basically aren't simply focused on promoting their promoting their offerings. They're also they're thinking critically about how broader infrastructure, including transportation and social supports, underpin underpin the sustainability of their operations.

Andrew Siegwart  53:54  
Yeah, it's a really it's a really good point, and it just shows, again, how dialed in they are to the needs of their of their customers and their employees and the community. And so I think it's going to be really fun for us to carry the mantle there. And I think one of the you know talking about resolve, where I see that resolve in our eventual work plan, and what, what's come forward, is there's a lot of focused recommendations where we want to form teams and groups, and we want to work on pilots and test pilots, and we want to choose markets to test a public private partnership to advance transportation, or do some unique testing of marketing green infrastructure, or growing an international marketing campaign. So that specificity and the recommendations, I think, is going to help us drive that so yes, thank you for sharing a little bit more about your perspectives on that, and no doubt we'll continue to work together on the implementation. And I can't thank you enough for the help that you've provided us in bringing that forward. We were going to be launching very soon. We're just in the final design stage on all of the documents. And then we'll be doing some consultation or presentations to the industry and governments and etc. So I'm excited to really bring that to market this summer. And you've really helped tayo achieve a major milestone and goal. As many listeners will know, we haven't had an effort like this in 10 years. So this is, this is how we we move the needle forward on a lot of this stuff as we finish, because I kept you a little longer than than I intended. But you know, we are data nerds, after all, so this is really fun to dig into. I'm going to add myself to that camp. Now you've converted me. I'm wondering if you could both share, because I know, I know how much you both enjoy travel, and you're really embedded in this sector, and I'm hearing a lot of requests for recommendations from media outlets on those off the beaten track travel destinations. So I'm wondering, do you have any recommendations that you'd like to share with our listeners of special places that maybe are not well known, that you would recommend they check out this summer.

William Schatten  55:55  
You know, I'm going to tap into my hometown of Prince Edward County, so my I would just maybe just paint a portrait of my perfect day, relaxing Princess County. So I think, you know, starting midday, let's say we'll hit up a little bluff conservation area, which is has a pebble beach that's kind of secluded and really tucked away and not as widely known as some of the bigger beaches in the county, like sand banks Provincial Park or North Beach. So often you get, you get the whole Pebble Beach to yourself, and it's beautiful. There. You have beautiful views. Then I probably head to my local winery, which is the Three Dog winery. Love, love the space there. As you can tell by the name, very dog friendly as well. So chill with the dog and the family at a winery there. And then finally, I'd end with dinner at the Royal Hotel in Picton, which maybe is a little more widely known, but I love that spot as well.

Andrew Siegwart  56:51  
Yeah, great meal there. Great ambiance. Thank you for that. What a great itinerary. How about you, Alex,

Alexander Mazanik  56:56  
yeah, I can't believe will just told you about the Pebble Beach. So I don't know if that's gonna make the final edit, but I guess we'll see. I've been there on recommendations of will, and, you know, I think it's great. I'm so where is will, I think is drawn to the county. I'm definitely a city boy, and what I'm finding, especially this time of year, kind of early summer, is that I'm almost like, you know, re revisiting my own, my own city. So I live in Toronto, and so I'm finding that after all the cold weather, I'm just kind of, you know, going to all my favorite places again and going on, you know, bike rides and things like that, to rediscover my city after winter, basically. And I think it's also speaks to the kind of introspective nature of maybe the current trend that's going around any words. So I'll tell you, you know, my kind of city boy itinerary. So what I would do is maybe hop on a on a bicycle, whether you own one or you rent one. Maybe start out west, just the bike on harbor street. You can stop by Sam James coffee shop, Padel coffee shop, which is fairly new, and maybe you can grab a coffee or a spicier drink, if you want to. And then make your way down through the city to Lake Shore. Stop by maybe Kensington Market, Chinatown for some snacks. And ultimately, whatever this is just doing is around sunset, end up at Tommy Thompson Park, and there's a lighthouse there. And what you can do is you can position yourself to just see the beautiful Toronto skyline. And what you'll see around sunset is, kind of the city lights start coming up, right? And you really start seeing kind of the scale of the city. And to me, it's always a fun experience to start kind of imagining all the things that are happening in the city, all the experiences that are possible. And you know, I cherish those moments, and hopefully listeners of the pod could experience something like that as well.

Andrew Siegwart  58:42  
Oh, thank you both gave such thoughtful recommendations. You're great storytellers. Just you're just proving the point. Good data helps you to tell a great story, but those are both great recommendations. And thank you very much. And once again, thank you for sharing your insights with us. I often find it's the nuance and perspective around the data that really, that really gets us going, and of course, all of your support to us and to the sector and the work that you do with destination Ontario and others. And I really look forward to promoting some of your new products to our members so that everyone can get take advantage of your expertise. And look forward to connecting again soon. Thanks, Andrew,

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  59:19  
thanks for listening to forward motion. This show is created by the tourism industry association of Ontario and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the sound off media company. You.