Kelly Jackson on Toronto’s Visitor Boom, FIFA World Cup 2026™, and the Next Decade of Growth

Mary Anne Ivison  0:01  
And this is forward motion discussions about the important topic shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew sigwar,

Andrew Siegwart  0:09  
today on forward motion, we're taking a close look at one of the strongest tourism performance stories in the country. Toronto's record breaking year in 2025 I'm joined by Kelly Jackson, Vice President of destination development at destination Toronto, who brings a unique perspective shaped by experience in government, post secondary education and now destination strategy Toronto welcomed more than 28 million visitors last year, generating over 9 billion in visitor spending and nearly 13 point 5 billion in total economic impact, with more than a third of that spending coming from international markets. All of this happened against a backdrop of global economic uncertainty, shifting trade dynamics and uneven recovery across many sectors. In our conversation, we unpack what's driving that performance, what challenges remain, and what Toronto's experience reveals about tourism's role as an export industry and economic stabilizer, as well as a near and long term growth engine. We also explore what lessons from Toronto can inform destinations across Ontario as a gear up for 2026 and beyond, it's a timely conversation about resilience, competitiveness and how tourism can continue delivering for communities, businesses and the broader economy. Hi, Kelly, thanks for joining us at the forward motion podcast. Thank you so much for having me before we dive into the numbers and talk about the great success of 2025 for Toronto. Just want to talk a little bit about your personal journey. You bring a really interesting mix of experience to your role, spanning government post secondary education and now destination development. Wondering if you could briefly walk us through your career path and and how it shapes how you think about growing Toronto as a destination.

Kelly Jackson  1:50  
I think I've always been attracted to roles that really focus on opportunity creation. And, you know, have had the opportunity myself to work at two of Canada's largest higher education institutions, and Humber Polytechnic and Seneca Polytechnic, to work for three different provincial ministries and to work at a think tank that looked at international governance and now in this role of destination Toronto, really focused on working with our members, growing the visitor economy, having a lot of thought and time into thinking with our partners, with government, so many of the different stakeholders that comprise the visitor economy, but how we continue to maximize the opportunities that come with Tourism in Toronto. You know how we spread those benefits across the city, and how we really lean into the fact that we are this amazing global city, but that is distinctly Canadian. So all of those different types of experiences, I think, really helped me in seeing the complexity that characterizes our sector and the ways in which the visitor economy, fundamentally, you know, intersect and touch so many of those bigger questions about who we are, how we welcome people, how we show up, you know, and what kind of cities We want to have in the future.

Andrew Siegwart  3:22  
And it must be quite fun. I would imagine, you know, bringing some of your past experience. I mean, having an understanding of the college system is so helpful to the industry right now, working for a think tank or government agencies. I mean, you really get to put a lot of that, a lot of that learning and experience to work for tourism right now, that's got to be pretty rewarding.

Kelly Jackson  3:43  
Absolutely, it's so rewarding as well to be on my own learning curve and to go through that experience of meeting so many different types of members. You know, when we look at destitute and Toronto's membership, we've got over 800 members, and that's everything from, you know, tour operators to those that manage attractions to hotels to restaurants. Bia is the list, you know, just goes on and on. And so the opportunity to engage with them, learn with them, and then collectively come together around some of those big questions about, what do we need to do to continue to improve the visitor experience here? How do we grow and maximize spend in ways that benefit more? I think that's, for me, very rewarding, absolutely.

Andrew Siegwart  4:30  
Yeah, well, we're, I would say, certainly the right person to join our community at the right time, and I know that you know your stakeholders in Toronto and the rest of Ontario are really excited about having you be a part of the team and and working together to leverage all that knowledge. It's, it's really great. Let's, let's talk a little bit about 2025 it's quite a year for Toronto. Toronto welcomed a record 28 point 2 million visitors generated 9.1 billion in visitor spent. Nearly 13 point 5 billion in total economic impact. From your perspective, what's what's most significant about these results, particularly as you think about what's going on in the economy right now?

Kelly Jackson  5:11  
I think it the results clearly demonstrate the strength of the city's visitor economy. You know, when we look back at, you know, how much the tourism and hospitality sector has experienced since the pandemic. You know, there's been, first of all, I just want to recognize, you know, the work of so many different people across Toronto's visitor economy community. You know, who are the ones that play that role, so that we can be in the position to have such amazing results, to break records, to have, you know, the highest level of spending, $9.1 billion to see even more, you know, a growth in the number of Canadians coming to see the growth in the international markets at a time when, as you already sort of referenced. We saw a lot of geopolitical instability, and we definitely saw a softening of the US market. So to be able to deliver such strong results amidst all of that, to me, just really proves that tourism is one of the most resilient export sectors that we collectively have as a country, and it's presenting such a huge opportunity for Canada going

Andrew Siegwart  6:23  
forward, and it really does stand out to reinforce that our sector can be an economic driver that buffers and supports other the whole the whole province and the whole economy, while other sectors struggle or might not be experiencing the Same kind of growth, which I think is really important. What does some of these results tell you about? You know, where we are compared to a few years ago, like, does destination Toronto pinpoint any, any, any one or two things that have really been a secret sauce in this, these

Kelly Jackson  6:56  
results, when I think about first coming to destination Toronto, at the beginning of 2025 and we were announcing what the results were for the previous year. We were talking at the time about how the growth in the US visitation was a really big part of our momentum as we continued to not just recover from covid, but really enter a whole new growth phase. I think what's markedly different this year is the conversation in terms of the mix of visitors and us. You know, we saw the international arrivals. You know, fastest growing segment up 8% at a 1.4 million international visitors. And when I say International, I'm not including the US, so everybody but the US, and we saw growth from key markets like the UK and Germany, specifically, up 12 and 10% respectively, you know. So those were markets that we had earlier in the year. Opened up some offices in we had, the year before, expanded back into having an office representation in Mexico. And so for us, you know, the bigger economic conversation around international diversification and trade diversification is mirrored in the work that we're doing when we think about diversification of markets,

Andrew Siegwart  8:18  
it's so critical to look beyond the markets that might have been sustaining us over the last few years to where we need to grow. You mentioned a couple of markets that were strong, the UK and Germany, and you're right. The those international arrivals and spending were an important part of the mix and the story for 2025 Why do you think? What do you think is driving that Overseas Growth? Or what do you think made those markets decide that Toronto is the place to visit? Now, what kind of factors were were underpinning that, beyond the great work that that you've done, and beyond the great work that, of course, all the operators deliver.

Kelly Jackson  8:58  
So I think there's a number of reasons for that. I'll focus on three. One, I think, is, you know, Toronto has always been known as a welcoming, inclusive, diverse, exciting city, and certainly in our overall positioning, both in the US and internationally, we have leaned into that in a really strong way. And we talk about the fact that when people come to Toronto, not only are they going to have access to a range of amazing different types of experiences and attractions, right, but that they are going to be welcomed to be 100% who they are and craft 100% of the experience they want to have. So I think at this time, that message is really resonating. Secondly, I would say we are very strong when it comes to business events, major meetings and conferences. And certainly we see a number of international delegates that come to Toronto for meetings. And I think that's really important. Important when we think about one of the biggest trends in travel around pleasure or leisure, however you want to say it, but that combination of business and leisure so that opportunity that somebody comes first for a trip, for work, maybe to attend a conference or a series of meetings, and then they decide to add on some days, and they decide to stay, or maybe they decide to invite their family to come and join them. And in Toronto's case, what's also really exciting about that is there's a greater benefit for Ontario, because a lot of times those days added on are actually traveling to go to Niagara, to go to Muskoka, to go check out other parts of the province. And so that has its overall benefit. So those are two, two of the big reasons, and I think that the third reason is really about the experiences. Right. Experiences is what's driving a lot of people's travel. And we had a year of amazing concerts here. You know, we had a whole new venue established with the Rogers stadium and Coldplay, for example, and Black Pink, and a number of huge concerts that drew people in. But we also have, you know, so many opportunities when it comes to professional sports and so many other amazing live experiences, and that's what's also really fueling travel.

Andrew Siegwart  11:24  
I'm glad that you highlighted those dynamics and that third point, because really what it's about is it's continuous investment in product and experiences and bringing a level of innovation and newness. I mean, Toronto already has some amazing arts venues yet, adding yet another venue that brings a completely different outdoor experience does round out the offering. And I think that's, you know, we're going to talk a little bit about this later, in terms of remaining globally competitive, but I think those are the things that we need to do as destinations, no matter how big or small we are, is continually invest and bring new excitement, isn't it? And that, I think, probably speaks a lot to international visitors as well as domestic Now tell me, as you've been, as you've been looking at some of that work in attracting international markets, have you had to think about partnerships in a different way in order to, you know, to land some of that business, or to attract,

Kelly Jackson  12:22  
I think partnerships are really key to the work we do. And you know, when you talk about those two specific markets as examples, I can think of, for example, working with destination Ontario when it comes to the German market. So the in market representation that we have, we share with them. And so there's a lot of work on the ground that happens in terms of how media is engaged with to profile both Ontario and Toronto, or working with tour operators to position those packages for of experiences. When you think about the German audience, a lot of times, you'll see there's a real interest in experiences that involve nature, and from a Toronto perspective, we definitely have, you know, we've got the lake, we've got the waterfront, we've got a beautiful, interesting ravine system. But you know, when we can package up the opportunity for them to come and experience the urban environment, some of that nature here, but really pair it with some of the amazing natural experiences offered in Ontario, it becomes a very compelling product. So that's where working with Destiny Ontario becomes really important,

Andrew Siegwart  13:38  
yeah, and that's a they're a bridge to some other packaging partners and destinations or experiences, even beyond the GTA that can connect with that nature story too, right

Kelly Jackson  13:50  
in the UK. Conversely, you know, when we think about some of the partnership pieces there, a lot of that work is focused with the airlines, because accessibility and affordability really drives the opportunities to grow the market in that particular when we're talking about the UK. So working, of course, as we always do with Air Canada, but you know, recently also with Air Transat and Virgin, looking at the introduction of new routes and new opportunities. So that's a different type of partnership, but one that's equally important.

Andrew Siegwart  14:25  
Yeah, for sure. And those, those airlines and players, I mean, they are, they are in market, building demand in some of those communities, so it does make sense to sharpen your partnership with them. You know, it's interesting. I've noticed I have a personal connection. My partner was born and raised in Brazil, and I've noticed in the last year that three different airlines in Canada have launched routes to Rio so Air Canada, Air Transat and WestJet. And I know we've been looking at a lot of the international market development targets, if you think of what. Destination Canada's focusing on or destination Ontario. You know, it's not as large a focus right now on South America compared to some of the other markets, but yet, you're seeing the airlines starting to build there. So it's always a good, I think, early indicator of where demand is going to come from, right and then that's where the destination players step in and start making more connections. So I personally think it's exciting to see the our airline partners building these routes to different communities where there's a strong connection locally to in the case of Brazil, Brazilians who who now live in North America and visiting friends and relatives and all sorts of fun stuff that's coming down the pike.

Kelly Jackson  15:35  
Yeah, and I think, you know, certainly, I mean, that's been what the air access and capacity issue. When you look at the recovery, ongoing recovery, of the Asian markets, that's a huge piece of that puzzle. So, you know, we were really excited to see, you know, air Canada's announcement about resuming service Shanghai, but you know, the lack of direct flights has been from Toronto to a number of Chinese mainland destinations has definitely been one of the factors that inhibited the growth of that market post pandemic.

Andrew Siegwart  16:12  
I think that's why the international numbers that you've posted are so significant, because the Chinese market has historically been such a big market, and then that one is coming back somewhat, but, you know, there's more building to go. So it really does demonstrate where Toronto has has excelled in the last year. It's interesting, I think, for a lot of smaller communities in Ontario, because we talk a lot about air access being a barrier in many jurisdictions. And I think a lot of people would think off the top of their head that that dynamic isn't an issue in Toronto, but it still is. And in fact, the issue those challenges within the gateway is directly impact our satellite communities, because more international visitors go beyond Toronto, right? So I think it's important that that we highlight that and that it's still an objective right to grow before I jump to the US market, because I still want to probe a little bit on the international and I know you probably don't have direct data points to kind of comment on this, but maybe just from your own gut instinct or the instinct of your team. How much do you think we won here in in Ontario, and specifically in Toronto, based on concerns about the US market, and that sense that maybe people are avoiding traveling to the US based on, you know, politics and and those sorts of things, how much of a factor is that really

Kelly Jackson  17:31  
well, I think you there's definitely been research that's come out in the last six months that indicates, from public opinion polling, You know, in places like Germany, that there's a real expression that people are not interested in traveling to the US, and so therefore they're looking for alternatives to the US. And Toronto is very well positioned to be, to become, you know, one of the ones on their shortlist, from a meetings perspective of one of the things that we've seen is that there are impacts of the uncertainty changes to visa policies, etc, that make it potentially more difficult for international delegates to attend meetings in the US And so that is having an effect on, you know, people's decision making, ultimately, about, you know, how much do they want to go through in order to attend a conference? And we are well positioned, on the other hand, because of our openness, access and the ongoing work that you know, destination Toronto does, for example, with IRCC and CBSA around supporting our business events and those major meetings and conventions that come to the city to try to ensure that the delegates that want to come are able to work with process if they need to apply for a visa, etc, but to be able to actually come and attend, and that we're not creating barriers, right? I think certainly, you know, there are, you know, it's not just anecdotal. We are seeing some some of that, like it's a both through some of the public opinion polling, but also through the visa changes and some of the changes in the US policy overall have made it more challenging for people to travel there depending on where they're coming from, yeah, and

Andrew Siegwart  19:22  
what their what their their backgrounds are, what their priorities and values are, and and I think that one thing about Canada and Ontario and Toronto is that we, we we have good brand recognition in terms of values. People know what we stand for, and that's probably serving us well. I think it's really interesting that you talked about things like removing barriers from from source markets, or as it relates to things like visas and board, you know, the ability to have a seamless border experience. I mean, that's the level of concierge service that you're having to deliver to win those those conventions, isn't it?

Kelly Jackson  19:57  
Absolutely, you know, there's huge. Amount of work that goes into bidding on a major meeting or convention and being successful in landing it and securing it for Toronto. Yeah, but there's also a huge amount of work that goes in to making sure that on the servicing side, that once we know that meeting's coming, that we are doing, all we can to help support that particular client, and we do that in a lot of different ways. Some of it is helping them drive attendance, maybe connecting in with different speakers and sponsors that are a part of Toronto's ecosystem. It may be around thinking about how we have that sense of welcome and pageantry for them when they arrive. So there's so many different ways in which that servicing comes alive. And I think the other piece that we often talk about is that people don't realize how far in advance those bookings are made, right so right now, the work we're doing is looking to book meetings for three to five years out, if not even potentially further. Wow.

Andrew Siegwart  21:05  
So that's quite a long planning horizon that that you're working on, the work that you're doing is clearly paying off. When you look at the results that you shared just last week. You know, 50% year over year, increase in delegate volumes for major meetings in 2025 so that's that's pretty impressive. And I can recall, you know, one of our big messages in 2024 and it still remains in 2025 is we want to see more investment to continue that long term outreach, because business events are so critical. But I'm wondering, do you have any insights on what has driven that such a big jump year over year? Is it, is it coming from, and I'm just talking about meetings in general, as well as international side. But is it, you know, are companies more willing to gather? Are they? Are they feeling more comfortable to invest in this kind of work? Is that? Is it pent up demand, maybe from when events were on pause, you know, any insights you could share for us, with us, on on what's driving that growth?

Kelly Jackson  22:02  
Happy to try to share some insight, and there's a there's so many different pieces to this puzzle. So in 2025 we hosted 74 major meetings. We had an estimated 378,000 delegates, and that generates almost a billion dollars in economic impact, right? So, you know, very impressive numbers off the top of the 74 meetings. Seven of those would have been rebookings from covid cancelations, just to give you that sin. But we had a very strong program built up of events for 2025 so as I mentioned, you know, when you look at the cycles for the booking and securing of these kind of business opportunities, here's three to five years out, if not more. So we had done a lot of work to build that up, but we also really activated those services for some of the key conventions that we knew were going to be in town, especially coming out of the first quarter of last year, where we all started to really feel the geopolitical uncertainty, and we weren't sure how that might affect attitudes around travel. We had saw, globally, a bit of a pause in travel patterns in that first quarter. And so we did a lot of work with our partners to figure out how we're going to help support them make some specific strategic investments to help drive attendance, to help them reach new audiences. So really, you know, use the word concierge. So really putting that kind of concierge service, you know, into full implementation for, you know, a handful of the really big key meetings that were coming to Toronto that was also part of it. But if go back to that idea of us being a welcoming, inclusive place, and how core that is to our DNA, and we really also worked hard to make sure that that was communicated, not just by us in our marketing, right, but actually through those partners as well, through all of their delegates and to all of the people that they were working with to put on those big events. And I think that did have an effect.

Andrew Siegwart  24:17  
And it sounds like what you're saying. And I'm sure this is just the it's such a best practice model, but you're you're more than helping them find space and accommodations. You're literally helping them curate the content you're connecting to local industry. I mean that that, I think 10 years ago, that level of in depth work might not have been happening in the same way that it is today. And I'm wondering positioning Ontario is the right place for to bring a delegation. But then there's, I think, leveraging what Toronto's economy has on offer that you must be able to tap into, whether it's, you know, the different sectors that are powering to. Toronto's economy. You know your relationships with the Toronto Board of Trade in many different sectors, whether that's you know, biotech, technology, whatever. Talk to us a little bit more about how mining, Toronto's economic capacity helps you in this space and those relationships with other sectors.

Kelly Jackson  25:17  
The knowledge network that we have in Toronto, the strength of our investment trade, tech, AI, life sciences, you know, fill in the blank sector is a huge competitive advantage for us when we go after a major meeting and convention. Because, to be frank, sometimes we don't have the largest convention center right, we may not be able to offer the kind of incentives that potentially other destinations who are competing for the same business can. What we can offer, though, is that access to the ecosystem here of industry leaders, right of inventors, academics, of researchers, right of business and when we are able business leaders, yeah, that's right. And when we're able to bring all of that together and help introduce also opportunities for sponsorship for some of those conferences, to help introduce opportunities to bring in specific speakers, even the types of sort of field trips or side trips that they can offer to delegates, right? This becomes very powerful. And so for us as well, we do a lot of work with the Toronto Region Board of Trade and Toronto global, which is the agency that's responsible for attracting for direct investment into the city. We see that as so critical, because, you know, if we can position Toronto as the place where global business comes to meet and convene, right, then we create those conditions for more investment, more talent attraction, right? More job creation, and we all see how that first step of the meeting can be the catalyst for so much

Andrew Siegwart  27:12  
That's right. And in an era where we are looking for global investment and we're looking to bolster our economy, that way, it's never been more important, and I think it's why it's a good example of why we are placing such an importance on meetings and events when we talk to policy makers and governments. Because there's like a triple bottom line here. There's the there's a direct spend, there's the local connectivity and the visitor economy experience, but then there's that deeper investment portfolio, down potential down the track. And I think that's it's just so critical to highlight. And it's a lot, it's a lot.

Kelly Jackson  27:47  
But, yeah, it was, and to your point about the importance of investment and incentives, you know, it is a very competitive world. And you know, two of those conferences we had last year that brought about 12,000 attendees. You know, two of those were supported through the International Convention attraction fund, right? And, you know, we're very, very hopeful that that fund is going to continue. We're still waiting to hear definitively whether that will be the case or not. But this is really Canada's moment. You know, it's so much interest in what we have to offer. And as I said, if we are able to be the place where, you know, global business comes to meet, convene, exchange ideas, and we are the place where people feel welcome and comfortable to be able to come and do that, you know, to me, it's just, as you said, there's a triple bottom line here. So why would we not just lean in even harder, right? Why would we not double down on this opportunity,

Andrew Siegwart  28:49  
and when Prime Minister Carney, Premier Ford and so many others are on the global stage right now, sharing our brand message, talking about the value that we have, this is where we this is a partnership opportunity we have in front of us, and we for those who might not be aware or listening. So the international conventions attraction Fund is a federal program. It's been very impactful over well over 20 to one return on investment in terms of adult spent. And we, we're still waiting to find out there's been a good advocacy push with partners working with Ty act to save that program. One of the things tayo has done is we've also included it in our in our Ontario pre budget submission, with a suggestion that perhaps Ontario create one for Ontario. So if we can have some additional dollars at the provincial level, then that can help Ontario win even more. So yeah, we're definitely talking a lot about that, and hope to see some positive outcomes there. But thanks for sharing a little bit about, you know, what it takes to earn business in the international meetings space and and the types of services that we're offering today. I think many can can appreciate that, and it's, it's good insights for. Are destinations large and small, because what you're talking about, you could easily be doing at a very small destination for domestic clients as well. I think, you know, we're in the service business. So adding, adding value is how we add value, shifting gears a little bit, you know, because we can't, you know, not everything is great news. We are facing some headwinds. And, you know, the the US market decline in 2025 in Toronto was, was, was smart. I mean, it was a significant drop. And I think we've seen that. I don't think I know, we've seen that same, some macro impact across Ontario. And I'm wondering, you know, what do you think that that is telling us about our typical us visitors, what should we what message should we be taking from that decline, and then from that Where do you think we should be focusing to try to reverse that trend, if at all possible?

Kelly Jackson  30:52  
In Toronto in 2025 you know, the US market was down 6% from the previous year. That still brought 1.9 million visitors. And, you know, earlier we talked about the international numbers, and so I combined all the other countries, you know, we were at 1.4 million so, you know, so the US, you know, even with that softening, is always going to be a critical market for us. And to your point, it's really about, you know, when we think about the US visitor right now that we want to target, are there opportunities to focus on certain types of groups or areas of interest, and what does that look like in the past? You know, we really focused last few years, our marketing campaigns would be in the fly markets. So we would looking at major cities, places like New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Washington, DC. And, you know, we would position our selves, as I mentioned, as you know, a global city, but with a distinctly Canadian perspective, something you know that offered all sorts of amazing experiences, right from culinary to arts and culture and sports and beyond. And we would do different partnerships, like, for example, there Canada, where we might drive urgency through, like limited time offers right on special prices. I would say going forward. You know, as we're starting off in 2026 we're shifting our approach to look less at who we want to attract from that geographic perspective, so less about concentrating on certain major fly market cities, and more on passion points of travelers. And what are those passion points that align with the experiences that we can offer here in the city? And I think certainly from what we see in terms of the type of traveler that's more likely to come here, I'm talking about leisure, not necessarily on the business side. Would be, you know, more affluent and likely urban within the US themselves. The other thing that we benefit from in a different way than many of our colleagues that are in closer to the like along the border communities, is that you know when you're coming from some of those fly markets, you may not be day to day as affected by the ongoing geopolitical discourse of the US Canada relationship. And so I think some of the research that we've seen shows that the you know, along the border, those communities on both side right, that awareness is so heightened, and the that affects, you know that opportunity. So I think certainly you know that the drive market overall, in terms of the way those numbers looked in 2025 compared to previous years and compared to the fly market. I mean, the dry market has definitely taken the biggest hit, right? So, you know, for us, it's a little bit of a different focus. But even within our original focus, we've shifted.

Andrew Siegwart  34:18  
It is so fascinating how a market as as large as the United States and sort of convent, how conventional wisdom can be flipped upside down in such a short period of time, because many destinations would have put their dollars into Drive market because of proximity and because of ease of access, and that you're right, it is totally flipped. And it makes sense, because you're you're looking at attributes and values as opposed to geolocation. I mean, there's some access points that matter, like air connectivity, but we're seeing that's where some capacity is starting to come back right through different air hubs, going to those, those those cities, right? So that's helpful.

Kelly Jackson  34:57  
And in Toronto, we're really excited, because. Is, you know, later this year, we'll get the US pre clearance facility open at, yeah, Bishop, Toronto City Airport. And that in itself, creates the opportunity for a number of new routes out of that airport that previously airlines couldn't fly because of the issues on where you had to clear.

Andrew Siegwart  35:20  
That's right, yeah, Newport is invested heavily in that, again, to make it easier for for people to travel and to until to limit the barriers to access, which is exactly the kind of investments we need.

Kelly Jackson  35:31  
It is also, you know, another sort of interesting market that I've become aware of since during destination Toronto is all around the Great Lakes cruising. What we're seeing there is that, you know, 90 to 95% of those passengers are American, and many of them are come from the southern states. And part of what draws them to come up to do Great Lakes cruising in the spring and summer, early fall, is opportunity to travel, but also opportunity to escape some of the heat right that they experience. So, you know, it's funny, too, when you look at again, some of it is the urban, affluent, interested traveler, but there's a bit of a climate change geographic conversation that can also be overlaid on what drives where they want to go when

Andrew Siegwart  36:26  
it's funny, I when I think to this time last year, I think we were all so glued to the news, and every time a strange proclamation came out from the US government, we all kind of panicked, right? And I feel like today we're a little more we're trying to not give it as much oxygen. So I've been paying attention to the Ambassador Bridge discourse right now. And to your point about drive markets, like there's a part of me that actually, I wish that media outlets would just stop covering some of this stuff, because it's all it's noise. I mean, who knows what will actually happen, but it's almost like those markets are the coverage is creating the barrier versus the discourse, so to speak. So I think there's just, I think we're learning how to put that stuff into better context. Would you say your team is in the same boat?

Kelly Jackson  37:14  
I think we're just continuing to try to collect as much insight as we can, and some of that is anecdotal, and some of that is through different, you know, research points that we partner with, you know, Destiny Ontario, or destiny and others to collect and understand. You know, how is behavior being affected by the geopolitical discourse? What is the perception of Toronto? You know, when we look at decisions that people might make about where they would choose to travel, so I think we're, you know, very much trying to, you know, keep an eye on it and have active conversations about it, to your point not to sort of panic every time there's a new piece of a new news item, but to, but, you know, to make sure we're continuing to look at strategic conversations and really again, to see, you know, where, where does this create, maybe a set of challenges for us. But where does it create opportunities? You know, so for sure we talked about, you know, opportunities around, for example, the fact that you know if, again, if I go back to business events, if your meeting planner for a large, international based Association, and you're thinking about where you would want to hold your conference, and you know that it's really important that you use that conference as a revenue driver, then you need people to be there, and you need them to attend. And if you look at how some of those conferences performed in the US in 2025 you might start to look for other North American piece, right for that creates an opportunity. The flip side is, you know, if you're a US based meeting planner, and you're looking at all of the things that are unfolding around you. You might say to yourself, I don't think this is the time that I want to book my meeting outside of the US, right? So it's just constantly looking at, you know, we often say headwinds and tailwinds, right? And yeah, so making sure we understand how those are blowing and how invest, you know, adjust our sales to be able to ride those waves in a way that's going to get us where we need to go?

Andrew Siegwart  39:28  
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's very solid advice. It's, it's a track, not necessarily react, but observe and understand where the opportunities are. I think it's really solid advice. Now, you know business operators, they do this kind of work every day. They're always tracking what's happening and reacting to, you know how consumers are, are transacting and connecting with them. I'm wondering, you know you mentioned earlier about the large number of members that destination Toronto has and services. So talk to us a bit about what you're. Hearing from them in terms of what's going on in their businesses. So your report shows a lot of top line growth and some really great positive indicators. Are operators across the city feeling that yet, or are they still facing some challenges?

Kelly Jackson  40:14  
You know, I think when you have such a diverse membership, you're always going to have a mix in terms of the experiences and so certainly, I think that top line growth has absolutely translated to the bottom line for a number of our members. Flip side, there are some that you know are dealing with the things that all businesses are dealing with, in terms of inflationary pressures, workforce issues right around both attraction and retention of talent, and those cut across our members, right? So some are feeling that more than others. You know, on one hand, I, you know, I could tell you, for example, you know, we had the tour operator that A was at destitute in Toronto, speaking to our staff in December. And you know, one sort of smaller comment he made, but it stuck with me is that, you know, the decline in the American visitation. He noticed because, as it as somebody who operates tours and provides tours around the city benefited from tips, and Americans are often known as, you know, you know, when they've enjoyed an experience providing a quite a nice, generous tip, right? And I was thinking after, you know, how does that translate for so many different people that work in hospitality? Yes, on the other side, you know, when I think about, if I go back to October, you know, we were in the middle of a very exciting run to the World Series by the Toronto Blue Jay, and we were seeing huge increases in year over year comparisons for hotel demand and for point of sale transactions at bars and restaurants, right? So it was so fun. Yeah, it was a great loved it. I in the Venn diagram of Kelly Jackson as a huge Jays fan. I was happy to talk a lot about sports tourism that month and see that come together. But yeah, so I think, you know, even throughout the year, different parts of the season, we saw different businesses benefiting differently, but I also feeling that shift in the visitor mix, experiencing that differently.

Andrew Siegwart  42:28  
Yeah, and I think what you're one of the things that you're you know, your commentary makes me think of and you've, you've shared this sort of philosophy a few times now, but the more intentional you are with your the diversity of offerings in a destination, or how diverse your destination development activities are, that provides the ability to bring more top line growth to more segments. And I think that is a really important thing for us all to consider. It's interesting for Ontario's New tourism strategy, one of the pillars that we have is actually focused on market development. And it's not because the industry believes that the Tourism Association should be engaging in marketing, but that we need to be raising awareness of how important market development is to policymakers, because sometimes one of the challenges we've had is offsetting those barriers to growth, like the increased cost has been our flat top line growth. So if we can, if we can put more of our energy on growing top line that helps buffer the costs, and it helps drive investment, it helps employment. So I mean, that's the purpose for having that there. I'm going to think what you're what you're reminding us is, is is that that really has to be at the forefront of all of our strategies, is making sure that we're we're winning as much support for that effort.

Kelly Jackson  43:47  
Yeah, absolutely. I think we mentioned Rogers stadium earlier. And, you know, I think a really interesting example of, you know that spin off effect is that you know one of our members, Yorkdale, you know, Matt's a shopping center, you know, gets a lot of lot of visitors from outside of Toronto. Has a number of specific shops, you know, that also attract international luxury travelers. But you know, so the night of those concerts, right? So a huge increase in the number of individuals who were coming to the mall, who were spending time eating there before they would go to the show, doing shopping, etc. And then they started to do some really creative arrangements with Live Nation, where, for example, for Oh, really, for the black, pink concert, they actually had a pop up of the concert merge at Yorkdale earlier, right? So then all sorts of people came there to get that merch, even if they didn't have tickets to go to the concert, right, and buy that there. And then, of course, they're spending time there, and they're like, willing to attend other businesses and frequent them. And, you know, so really. Interesting type spin offs. So you create one piece that you don't always know where those other benefits will come from, but they usually do appear for sure.

Andrew Siegwart  45:11  
And it's another great example of where investments in core infrastructure, even if it might not be as evident today, enable that, right? So the expansion of the young line two all the way to Downsview and beyond to Vaughan. Now I mean that that's another enabler, that infrastructure is enabling that connectivity, and we're certainly seeing a lot of that happening in many different areas. So that's a that's a definite thing to look forward to. And I I love why you highlighted that, because it shows the innovation of operators and how they are creatively leveraging what we're all putting down and and driving employment opportunities, growth, etc. So I feel like we've been leading down the topic that I can't believe it's taken us this long to get to. But another exciting thing that's coming in Toronto in 2026 is, of course, is the FIFA World Cup, and everything that's taking place there. So talk to us a bit about the enthusiasm of this event. And you know, from your perspective, what is it going to mean for the city and the province?

Kelly Jackson  46:13  
It's just such a big opportunity, it's almost hard to, you know, articulate it in a really, you know, succinct way, because, you know, you're talking about the equivalent of multiple Super Bowls happening in such a short period of time. You know, Toronto is one of 16 host cities. And you know, while, of course, we're going to be welcoming hundreds of 1000s of visitors, whether it's, you know, people who are part of the actual infrastructure of FIFA, whether it's the teams, whether it's fans, right? You know, whether it's people who just want to come and be a part of the excitement. No, all sorts of people, of course, are going to come to Toronto. But beyond that, every time that a game is played here. There are going to be billions of people watching. And when you think about the opportunity to showcase, you know, Toronto in June, looking, you know, amazing skyline, looking beautiful. You know, all of that kind of B roll type shots that get shown when you watch a major sporting event, and they, you know, do the broadcast from there. It's so exciting to think about how we're going to inspire future visitation to this city.

Andrew Siegwart  47:30  
Yeah, it being a venue and a location, just being here is going to bring those, those impressions and awareness. Is there? I'm assuming there's, is there a team at destination Toronto that is working with the broader organized organizing team to seek out those stories in that B roll and really tell the story. Yeah.

Kelly Jackson  47:49  
So we actually work with FIFA Canada, for example, to create a video with Will Arnett, so each of the host cities got to identify somebody to be their local ambassador, and so we'll learn that was originally from Toronto, and so came back and shot a great video here, which we've used and promoted and has gotten a lot of attention. But we are also working to think about with the rights broadcast holders. You know, what kind of images will they be able to see, what kind of footage? I think the other big thing our media team will be doing will also be connecting the dots, for those that are here covering it, in terms of showcasing the diversity of Toronto, not just in terms of our neighborhoods, but also some of the different cultural connections to the teams that are going to be playing now, Toronto, at a regular World Cup, can be a really amazing fun place to be, you know, because depending on who's playing what night, and you know, who wins that game, A neighborhood might explode with joy and celebration, and so now we're going to have that effect that's not going anywhere, but we're also going to be a host city, so we're going to have six games here, and we're going to have a fan fest running every single day that's going to create a collective gathering space, officially, for people to come together and watch the games. And we also know that there'll be all sorts of watch parties that people will hold across the city. So, you know, I think Toronto is going to be a ton of fun to be in during the tournament. And I hope that people are able to get to Toronto to enjoy it at some point and experience it, because it is a generational opportunity, like, whether or not you're going to the game, trust me, it's going to be a the city is going to be buzzing,

Andrew Siegwart  49:47  
for sure, for sure, it's, it's, yeah, it's on par with hosting an Olympic. Olympic Games, you where there's the they leave a legacy. And also, I would imagine, I don't know how much. Kind of site you have into this, but I have heard different different locations, even outside of the GTA, that are looking at hosting official watch parties or coming up with interesting, creative marketing campaigns to engage their local customers or their local community. So I think it's going to be really interesting. Again, we might not include this if you don't have an answer, but have you heard of anything interesting or that you can talk about beyond Toronto? That's that's doing something fun?

Kelly Jackson  50:28  
I have heard that there's going to be an opportunity for the trophy to go on a bit of a tour. And so, you know, I don't know yet where the that might be within Canada. But I think certainly, if there are going to be opportunities for other Ontario destinations to be able to host, be part of that, that tour stop, I think that's going to be really exciting.

Andrew Siegwart  50:53  
Yeah. Now, I think most destination marketing organizations experience this challenge, and that is, you know, you have to lay so much of a foundation down for the future, whether it's your business events or whether it's prep for a major global sporting event like this, but you still have to deliver seasonally, and you have to, you know, you have a lot of programming that's running that might not even be connected to, say, the FIFA World Cup. How do you balance that? And thinking about summer 2026 are there still periods in the summer that you're focusing on and concerned about? I mean, I'm, I'm assuming there's more, more to come than FIFA for 2026

Kelly Jackson  51:30  
Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question, because, you know, of course, everybody right now wants to know about FIFA, right? You know what's going to happen, what's, what are all the plans for the hosting of the World Cup, and how's it coming together, but the last game in Toronto will be played at the beginning of July, so we still have the entire summer season really to make sure that that is successful. And so we're going to be running a cooperative marketing program post tournament to really help drive summer visitation in July and August, and that's another good example of partnership approach. So we, last year, ran both a winter and a summer Co Op campaign. And so what that means is we invited partners. What attractions, hotels, retail operators to come and partner with us, and we would match dollar for dollar their investment. And so we use, that's amazing, yeah. So it's a really great opportunity for them to be able to amplify the effect of their investment. And so we use a destination Toronto umbrella to help, you know, push out that initial message. But then there are custom call to actions to their website, or, you know, their vehicle of choice to be able to drive interest for their own business. And so we had a lot of success doing that. Last year, we saw the interest more than double in terms of the number of partners. And so, you know, as we think about this summer, I think again, we're going to have a lot of interest in that, and of excitement about how we collectively are all coming together to tell that bigger Toronto story, but still in a way that really allows businesses to detail, for somebody what is so special and unique about their offering.

Andrew Siegwart  53:21  
It's something that, in my conversations with many destination marketing organizations, they are looking at more Co Op and collaborative initiatives to either play in the product development space or the seasonal product development space or in marketing directly. And I think it's it's very exciting. It can really multiply impact talking about FIFA and the impact of FIFA. I mean, it it goes without saying that a market like Toronto is such a gateway to the province. What does destination Toronto do to build those relationships with you know, you mentioned a few destinations, Muskoka, Niagara. I mean, there are, there are, there are nearby communities that help Toronto sell internationally or nationally. What, what does that work look like for the destination Toronto team?

Kelly Jackson  54:13  
You know, it takes a lot of different forms, just for for those that you know may not be as familiar with, you know, when we say, like, oh, there's, you know, a big economic impact. Or, you know, we're the gateway. And people come here and then they travel elsewhere in the province. Just, I think an anchoring point is, you know, when people are on trips to Toronto and then they go out into other Ontario destinations, we're talking about $2.2 billion worth of spend, right? So, you know, this is very significant. I think one of the really interesting ways in which we're working with other destinations is around the tour operator conversation and how something is packaged together. When you think about somebody deciding. Thing to, you know, take a transatlantic flight. You know, the thought of, you know, spending, let's say, three four days in Toronto. That may be interesting, but is that enough to get you to convert, to take that action, right? But if I, you know, now, I'm told I'm going to have an opportunity to spend three or four days in Toronto, and then I'm going to get to go down to Niagara. Oh, they have a wine region there. And, oh, I'm going to see the iconic Niagara Falls. And now I'm going to also have an opportunity, possibly, to go up and do some amazing, you know, hiking, and go into a whole different part north of the city, right? Or potentially, there's a whole culinary landscape, as we know, that's really exciting in Prince Edward County, right? It's still how people connect in there. Or, I'm coming to Toronto, maybe I want to go to Montreal too. Okay, well, actually, then I can go buy the 1000 Islands on the way, right? And so, or, you know, I could go to Ottawa and go to the nation's capital and also see, you know, some really amazing, interesting, very Canadiana type things, but they're going to be connected into this bigger trip. So I think our value as a destination only becomes enhanced when we can offer those other opportunities for people to see what they can do once they come here, spend a few days here and use us as the gateway. There's also been, I think, certainly, on the culinary scene. You know, we have the Michelin Guide in Toronto, and destination Toronto played a major role in bringing that to the city. And really pleased that we were able to partner with a number of others to be able to expand that and now have a Toronto and Region guide that goes all the way down into Niagara and, you know, out it towards, you know, Langdon Hall and others, right? And so telling that story of, you know, the culinary expertise, the local ingredients, the way in which the cultural diversity of our chefs inspire the work that they do now, I think that's another example of, you know, how we were able to take something that started here but expand it and bring in more Ontario destinations.

Andrew Siegwart  57:15  
Yeah, do you do the stakeholders and members in Toronto? Do they that you that you work with, do they value and appreciate the fact that that destination, Toronto builds those bridges? Do they see it as part of their success as well? Or is it sometimes challenging to to, you know, reinforce the rationale?

Kelly Jackson  57:34  
You know, some of our members are out of Toronto members. We actually have a category for membership that is for those that are not based in in the city limits, and many it's great, yeah, many of those members are from, for example, from Niagara region, because there is just such a deep level of connection. I think for the most part, our members understand that a visitor's experience is only enhanced by that opportunity to be connected to a wider set of regions, and that, you know, a visitor doesn't know that they've crossed the border and that they're in Mississauga, right? You know, like these are these internal borders that we're aware of. A visitor is not thinking about them, right? And as I said, I think overall, people know that, you know, once somebody's come here for a particular reason, that they may have other opportunities, like we have so many people that may come to Toronto who then have family friends right in other parts of the province. And of course, we want them to go and visit them, right?

Andrew Siegwart  58:45  
Yeah, it's connected. When I was working for a DMO, a local, municipal DMO, a few years ago now, we were members of destination Toronto. For that very reason. We valued the data that that destination Toronto provided, and it was really important to us to build the relationship with the team and our international market development, which was a strategy was predicated on, on linking and connecting with Toronto. And so I think I thank you for for correcting me and noting that there are, you know, your members aren't just within the city. I mean, you have stakeholders beyond right? I think that's important for people to know. Sometimes we think a little bit too much in terms of our geographic locations, and sometimes we have to expand the net. So I like that. I think it's my that's my advice to anyone listening is, you know, you know, join, participate, learn, get involved, right? I want to close on, on, looking a little bit further down the track. It true to your word in terms of always we're looking ahead and building ahead. You're not just resting on the laurels of your success. You're planning for the future. You're working on a master plan exercise, and I'm sure you're thinking about what Toronto. Needs for the future and to continue building and growing. So maybe could you talk to us a bit about that project? And I don't know if it's fully complete yet, but what are some early signs that you're thinking about to lay further and future tracks for success?

Kelly Jackson  1:00:13  
It's a very exciting project, so appreciate you asking me about it, because it's something that we started last year. It's being funded in part by Fed Dev, so I want to make sure that I recognize them for their support. Yes, it's been an exercise in bringing together people from across the visitor economy and beyond, really tapping into other stakeholder groups, other types of businesses, and engaging them, along with our, you know, the usual suspects from tourism and hospitality to talk about. You know, what does the visitor experience look like in Toronto? How do we want to improve it? How do we stay competitive in us at a time when we see all sorts of destinations continuing to invest in product development, build major new convention centers, you know, offer all sorts of incentives to bring business there, you know. So what is the vision that we have collectively for the city, and how do we root that in a lot of consultation and conversation and also research? You know, we need to make evidence based decisions when we think about where it is we want to go and when we work to identify the opportunities ahead of us. You know, really need to bring all those people and all those research points together. And so I think, you know, as we we look ahead, we're going to be launching it later this spring, and it's going to be a 10 year strategic roadmap for the city is going to highlight a number of opportunities. And as we did this work, we thought about, you know, there are a lot of plans or a lot of strategies that already exist in the city, whether it's the City of Toronto's or whether it's, you know, waterfront toronto, toronto Port Authority, create to there's

Andrew Siegwart  1:02:09  
so many entities,

Kelly Jackson  1:02:12  
yeah, so one, we wanted to make sure this plan was really an umbrella for all of those good plans and strategies, and really shine The light on the recommendations and those plans, or the the work that's underway, and say we all need to double down and really support the implementation of those plans. We wanted to make sure that we had that right mix of things that we know we could move on quickly together. But also, what are those bigger, ambitious ideas that we want to put out there. It's the 10 year plan, right? So we need to have some really high impact items. We looked at the research, and I think one of the big takeaways, you know, the shorthand of it is, you know, Toronto is really strong on software and lacking a bit on the hardware. So, you know, we're still catching up with major infrastructure investments, whether it's through the public transit side, whether it's infrastructure in the meetings and convention space. You know, there's a big opportunity around a new, revitalized Metro Toronto convention center and that entire precinct around it. There's massive development, as we know happening in both the Portland's and Ontario Place and exhibition place. So you know, how do we take that big picture around? Okay, we know that there are major infrastructure investments that are underway and more that need to happen to catch up. But we also, as I said, I don't want to lose the strong on software part, because that's all about the amazing culinary scene, the amazing set of experiences we offer through arts and culture and live programming, through all of the sorts of different types of attractions that we have. So I think for us, we know there's so many things in Toronto that are really already world class, and it's also about making sure that those get even better. So how do we invest and support the things that are already great, and then how do we also look for new clusters of attractors or activities that we can help support and foster in different parts of the city so that 10 years from now, if we were having this conversation, we could say, you know, that list of, you know, absolute visitor ready, you know, signature areas to go to, has just gotten so much longer. The choice is even harder now for visitors when they come to the city.

Andrew Siegwart  1:04:39  
Yeah, that's the goal, that's the goal. And I think it's very smart. And I think what's interesting and what you, what I, what I've taken from what you're talking about, a few things. First and foremost, I love that you are looking at a 10 year plan. I feel like too many organizations are trying to collapse their strategy windows into shorter and shorter time frames. And I think. You need a mix of the here and now and what you need to do in the short term, and you need a longer lead plan, because otherwise those longer lead things, they just, they don't crystallize us effectively. I think that's part of our overall economic productivity that we need to be driving. But I also think you're you will be unlocking opportunities as some of those big projects emerge for your members and for small businesses and that cluster building. So I think it's, it's very smart. So congratulations. We're really excited to to track and at see what, what, what comes forward in your announcements. And I think it is very exciting and great that we you had some fed dev support. Fed dev helped us deliver the the tourism strategy for Ontario. So it's great to know that we have that backing of levels of government along the way as well.

Kelly Jackson  1:05:50  
Yeah, and I think for us, one of the biggest messages that we have tried to make sure people are hearing, you know, from the very beginning of this work was that, you know, destination trial may be the ones that are in the position to facilitate the creation of this plan, but it is not a destination Toronto plan. It's a plan for Toronto. You know, there is no current central plan to grow tourism in Toronto, and part of that is because there's not one level of government that has responsibility for it exclusively. There's not one set of stakeholders that own tourism. And so, you know, knowing that we live in this complex world, let's step up. Let's create a way to bring everybody together, create some consensus, really put out some ambitious things we can do, think about the important things we need to do now in the short term, so that we can continue to make sure that the impact of tourism is being felt even more than it already is today, for

Andrew Siegwart  1:06:55  
sure, and we've seen that firsthand, following that same model where it is so fun to watch stakeholders come to the table now that the plan is out there, and volunteer to lead certain aspects, align their passion with one of the strategic pillars and help drive it on behalf of the industry. And it becomes a shared tool. And so we're seeing that already on the Ontario plan, and so no doubt the same will happen in Toronto. It's, it's exciting. It's, it's, I think we're all, we're all heading in the right direction. Well, I want to thank you for spending so much time with me today and walking through a lot of your a lot of your results that you released. It's really helpful, I think, for the whole industry, to learn a little bit more about your method, what you're working on, because what you do does impact the whole province. And I just want to thank you for sharing your your knowledge, and on a personal level, for those that don't know you know Kelly, you serve on taios board in a volunteer position. And I just want to thank you for your contributions. And you know you, give great advice to us as management and me personally. Recently we were talking about the colleges, and how do we move ahead with some of the challenges we're facing, and you always provide great practical advice. And I just I hope you know that it does percolate, and I do appreciate it, and look forward to working with you on that and many other things in the months ahead.

Kelly Jackson  1:08:23  
Thank you, Andrew. Appreciate the opportunity to connect in this way and to get to share a little bit more about, you know, the success that we had last year, but, you know, also talk about some of the work that we're doing. And I said it earlier, but I think it's the right note to end on, which is just, you know, a huge thank you to all of those businesses and organizations that make up Toronto's visitor economy. They are the ones that are creating those amazing, memorable visitor experiences that people are taking the photos of, sharing on social, telling their friends and family about being the reason, you know, those interactions and experiences are the reason why people have these amazing trips here and decide to come back, right and tell that story of what an amazing city we have. And so I think, you know, we're just lucky that we get that opportunity to be able to represent Toronto and work with all of them.

Andrew Siegwart  1:09:23  
Well said. Thank you very much.

Mary Anne Ivison  1:09:26  
Thanks for listening to forward motion. This show is created by the tourism industry association of Ontario and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the sound off media company. You you.