Resilience and Opportunity: Inside Ontario’s New Tourism Strategy

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:01  
Andrew, this is forward motion discussions about the important topics shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew sigward,

Andrew Siegwart  0:09  
welcome to forward motion, the Ontario tourism podcast today. We've got something special lined up. We're joined by Rebecca McKenzie and Michael Crockett, outgoing and incoming chairs of the tourism industry association of Ontario's board of directors, this is a rare chance to reflect on where we've been, where we're headed, and to hear from two leaders who've helped shape Ontario's tourism landscape. We'll talk about their personal journeys into tourism, their take on this week's launched Ontario tourism strategy, where the industry stands as summer 2025 winds down, and what's next for our sector, plus a little rapid fire fun at the end, let's jump in before we get into the strategy and industry trends. Let me start with something a little more personal. We often say that tourism is a people business, and that starts with the stories of the people who lead it. So to each of you, what first brought you into the tourism industry and What's kept you here? Why don't we start with you?

Rebecca MacKenzie  1:05  
Rebecca, my tourism career began when I owned and operated a seasonal specialty food shop in County cider actually in my early 20s in Prince Edward County, and it was a business that was open May through October. Like many, many rural destinations. We closed in the winter, and during the winter, about 100 entrepreneurs from across the community came together and said, How can we work together better to try to actually strengthen the season so that we're all not working three months of the year to try to survive for 12 months on that, I got involved with taste the county, which was the official destination marketing organization for Prince Edward County up until about, I think, 2018 when it dissolved. That experience. I ran that organization for a decade. It really rooted my whole sort of pride in place, my whole pride and taste of place. And it's been a journey that has been, you know, it started a passion that still exists to this day, and it's, it was the great foundation for getting me where I am in my career. Now,

Andrew Siegwart  2:06  
amazing story. How about you, Michael,

Michael Crockatt  2:08  
I often say that nobody ever dreams of growing up to work in a DMO. It's not, it's not my childhood dream of anybody, and same is true for me. I mean, most of my career, and even my my academic career, was about transportation and aviation. In particular, I worked at two of Canada's mid airports, and Winnipeg and in Ottawa. And, you know, I was fortunate that some of the work that I was able to do in those positions was was engaging with the tourism industry and so in Winnipeg, you know, even even something is as as simple as working with the the the lodges and outfitters association there, and understanding how important and how interconnected things are there, with air access to to a place like Winnipeg, and the ability for these remote lodges to to attract visitors from from around the world. And so it was sort of that first entree into into the tourism world there and then, over time, had opportunities to be to volunteer some of my time on boards in the tourism industry, even while working in the aviation sector, and starting to really get to see what tourism can do and what a DMO can do in a community, for example. And I think the great part about it is being able to travel in previous jobs also, and to really understand how impactful travel is to people and to communities, and how educational travel can be. The power of tourism and travel is exceptional, and that's really one of the things that really drew me to to the industry, and very fortunate that that I was able to land where I am today with with Ottawa tourism. And it's a very rewarding sector to be part of. For sure,

Andrew Siegwart  3:47  
all the work that you do ultimately contributes to people's well being and their quality time with loved ones and family. And so much of tourism is about your personal experiences. So it does, it does feel very rewarding. I have a theory that, you know, Michael, you come from Winnipeg, Rebecca, you started in small business. I have this theory that in our industry, folks who start out in small markets or places where you have to work extra hard, I feel like it builds a little bit of resilience and a competitiveness that that helps people succeed. What do you think of

Rebecca MacKenzie  4:20  
that? I would say in the sense that, like Michael, you know, you just mentioned about sort of the interconnectedness. And I think when you're an entrepreneur, or you're working in a smaller area that might not have as many resources, you have to take a systems approach to being successful, and think about all of the potential partners that you could work with to either grow your business or to elevate your destination. And again, I started my business in my very early 20s in a rural community. I quickly kind of similar to Michael got I volunteered for for taste the county. Before I was hired, I volunteered and ran the Bloomfield and area Business Association. I sat on the theater board. I sat on the. This women's services board. I, you know, I got fully immersed, and I knew every single business that was involved with taste the county. We had over 260 members, and I had been to every farm and every restaurant and every winery and every Accommodator. And in knowing and getting connected with all of those businesses and all those people, it made it easier to think about how we could overcome challenges, because there was relationships. And I think that's the coolest part of the tourism industry, is the relationships that you get to build, and the the opportunity that those relationships give you to really do things you know, quite innovatively, and do things different. And I it's part of you kind of feel like a big family everywhere you go, because it is, you know, that global, that global element. So it's, it's super special. I don't know, what do you think, Michael, I

Michael Crockatt  5:53  
totally agree with what you're saying. And the it is kind of like a family in a couple of ways, because we do all work together in a lot of in a lot of ways, to help grow the industry, grow the sector, share information. But Andrew, you said it like we're also very competitive. A lot of my counterparts from other DMOS across the country, we share all kinds of information, but I don't want to lose a single piece of business to them. I want to beat them for everything in a place like Winnipeg, the people who represent Winnipeg in the tourism sector and economic development in other areas, so passionate about that city. Love that city so much. And I think that does carry over to other communities as well. And we do grow to to be very proud of the places that that we represent, wherever we are in our in our careers. And that was certainly the case for me when I was representing Winnipeg in certain aspects, and now be in Ottawa for close to 20 years. It's this is a place that I'm very passionate about and about telling the world all the great things here too, but yeah, still, still competitive, too,

Andrew Siegwart  6:52  
for sure. Well, I think with the special magic in our industry is that we can't really do it alone, so we need to rely on each other, and the more we we accept that help and plug into the networks, the better we are, but also we run our businesses very competitively and shrewdly, and we're good business people, and our members are really good business people, and that's what great creates great experiences. And I think some of the rivalries between communities, but it's just good fun, right? It keeps people engaged. My

Rebecca MacKenzie  7:20  
personal favorite is the one between Michael and Andrew Weir around gas station Toronto. Yeah, so if you got to keep that going, because it's, it's magic,

Michael Crockatt  7:29  
I suspect the leaf won't make the playoffs next year, so it won't be as that worry

Andrew Siegwart  7:34  
about. Yeah, I guess the competition has to be somewhat plausible, right? We just launched the Ontario tourism strategy. Really a milestone that's been years in the making, and you've both been deeply involved in this moment and all the work to get there. And really, thank you on behalf of all of our members, for your leadership to really guide us to do that work for both of your perspectives, what does the strategy mean to Ontario's tourism industry right now.

Michael Crockatt  8:00  
For a lot of years now, the industry's focus was rightly on surviving and recovery and and that was the right focus for that timeframe. But as we've emerged from that phase, I feel like there's been a big unanswered question about what's next for tourism in Ontario, and no one was really answering that question at the time. And so we've seen some other jurisdictions take some really bold steps to grow and advance, taking advantage of the things that make them strong and unique. And we have a lot of great players and partners in Ontario, and it was time for for that all to be brought together with with a strategy, and we now have the collective roadmap. It's going to make all of us stronger individually, all of our businesses stronger individually. And maybe more exciting to me is it's going to allow Ontario to take what I feel is its rightful place as the most strategic, the most attractive place in Canada, the place that visitors from around the world most want to go in Canada, it's exciting to be sort of at the precipice of that right now, and not just not just us, not just us on this call, not just tayo, but where this industry and all the partners in this in this province, can take this right now. So I hope everybody else in our industry in Ontario is as excited as I am for where we can go with this right now. So it's a, it's a, it's a really, really interesting time for all of us.

Andrew Siegwart  9:25  
That point about competition, and that what you were alluding to there. It's included in the strategy. We want to make sure that Ontario continues to grow, and we don't want to fall behind our competitors across the province, and we want to contribute to Canada's overall growth. And so we have to have a little bit of that competitive spirit it drives us. Right How about you? Us, right? How about you, Rebecca? I mean, you've served as chair throughout the the majority of this project. You've had an extra special lens on it. What do you think,

Rebecca MacKenzie  9:50  
first and foremost, I'm incredibly proud of tayo for taking a leadership role in this. You know, obviously from from yourself and the rest of the team on staff and the board. I'm super. Proud of all of our members, you know, for taking the time and be and, you know, a lot of surveys, lot of engagement this. This is truly an industry led strategy, which, you know, I think, differentiates us from our other the other provinces and territories across the country, because it is an industry led strategy. Of course, we've been engaging with government along the way, and will continue to do so as we implement it. You know, when I think about Michael talking about, yeah, we were in that sort of whole survival mode, and, like, the last five years, you just, you couldn't have written a playbook for what the industry has gone through. And hopefully it's taught us many, many things. But one thing for sure is how we have to sort of prepare for future shocks, whether it's environmental, social, political, and that they're just going to keep coming at us. And the importance of having this strategy is really about having alignment on where we need to strengthen the competitive edge for our province and the industry, and how we're going to foster sort of that long term sustainability, you know, for the Culinary Tourism Alliance as a sector based not for profit, that has been doing the work that we do. Next year is our 20th anniversary. You know, really connecting culinary, agriculture, hospitality and tourism. We see this framework as a unique opportunity to not only continue to grow our provincial efforts, but it's very nicely aligned with our new national culinary and agritourism action plan. It's really great because we're taking that look nationally, and then we can see where provincially, we can be working with tayo and the strategy to help continue to elevate our unique tastes of place here in the province. You know, the collaboration, the secret sauce coming out of the pandemic, was how well everybody worked together because they had to. It was a necessity. And now it was interesting when everything kind of opened up and everybody got busy again. We all sort of kind of went off in our own directions. And I think that this strategy is going to help us come back together and really understand, you know, reinforce the value of continued collaboration, especially between rural and urban destinations really improving our market readiness and supporting the kind of experience development that inspires that year round travel. It really also underscores the importance of investing in capacity building and market differentiation. And so I think you know this roadmap, as you referred to Michael, is an important one. And I think what's great is tyos recognize that you're not driving everything. There's times when you're going to be the driver, there's times when you're going to be the in the passenger seat seat, helping with the map, and there's other times you're going to be in the back seat taking photos of the landscape as you go along, Right exactly. That's going to be part of our success as we move forward.

Andrew Siegwart  12:38  
Yeah, it was really important for all of the industry members who participate in the consultation, they looked at this strategy as there are some foundational elements that we need to really move the needle forward, and we need to be all collaborating on, but we also need to leave space for those subject matter experts or local strategies to really take shape. And if we get this collaborative right? There should be more resources. So for example, and I'll ask you, then I'll ask Michael, you know, Rebecca, knowing that those six pillars of market growth, transportation, investment, attraction, collaboration and human resources and sustainability are going to be driven, do you think it's going to allow you to focus a bit more on the culinary skill sets and the culinary product development that that you've always done,

Rebecca MacKenzie  13:27  
from our perspective, the playbook, the strategy, the focus on that product development piece is huge. I mean, that's that's a big area of the expertise that we offer at the CTA. So we developed, in partnership with the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, the culinary and agritourism readiness, and that's delivered in collaboration with pMOS, RTOs and DMOS across the country. So I think that experience development piece is huge, the coordinated marketing. You know, we've had a great relationship with destination Ontario ever since we came out with our do something delicious campaign that was, was stem stemmed from surviving the pandemic and coming out of it. And so I think those, those continued, coordinated and collaborative marketing is critical, and we're excited to continue to focus on that. And I think that the practical sustainability it again, it aligns with what our national culinary action plan is doing, and we want to see Canada recognized globally as a delicious destination by 2030 Ontario is a big chunk of the experience offering. And so the more we can help operators not only understand what's best for them in terms of being able to strengthen their year round operations, diversify their revenue opportunities and really lean into working more closely with their local DMOS. I think that's a win, win win for all of us. I do think we all need to continue to invest in technology, both as sector organizations, DMOS, RTOS, but also as operators. I think we're in a really, really good place, and I'm really excited. I. I'm also really appreciate that that we have not let go of the vision of the importance of sustainability and tourism. It's something that can also get easily lost as we look to try to obviously increase profitability, because addressing sustainability does take time and resources, but I really, really think that's important for us to continue to focus on, and certainly our initiatives at the CTA are rooted in our strong beliefs around support, supporting the sustainable development goals. We just became a green step gold certified organization this year. So congratulations, thanks. Yeah, there's organizations like Ottawa tourism that keep setting the bar, and all of these different Oh yeah, leads that they're getting. So we're competing with all of our partners out there. Those are the pieces we see in every element of the strategy, where we can connect and collaborate and then take those efforts out in the work that we're doing across the province, and then also share across the country.

Andrew Siegwart  15:55  
Oh, I like that you referenced that national lens, because a big part of this consultation was harmonizing with Destination Canada to see what the national strategy was for tourism growth and to make sure that we were working in the same direction so that we could collaborate Now Michael in a different direction for more local based tourism initiatives. You know, how do you think a strategy like this new one applies, and how do you think regional or local tourism initiatives can plug in and connect. It's

Michael Crockatt  16:24  
actually one of the great strengths of this strategy. Anybody who reads this strategy should be able to see their community, their sector, their destination, reflected in here, and see the opportunities that are there for them and for their partners locally as well. And the strategic goal six about this, the collaboration and leadership is what, again, excites me, is that's that's really Tayo is responsibility. We're the only ones who can bring this all together effectively, but at the local level, and maybe even, maybe even beyond our locality. But when we think about how the gateway cities in Ontario Can, can see themselves in this strategy. And when I talk about gateway cities, you know, talk about, maybe it's Ottawa, Niagara and Toronto, again, this is, this is a strategy the whole province should be able to take advantage of. But from the gateway cities perspective, you know, more visitors enter Ontario through one of these gateways. And they all, they have the biggest airports, the biggest convention centers, the largest agglomeration of attractions and festivals and sport venues as well and entertainment venues. So if we are collectively going to hit the targets that are in the strategy, it's mathematically impossible to do it if, if those gateway cities aren't growing as well. So of course, the cities are ready. The cities are ready to help lead this. This part of it now. And I think when you dovetail into the national strategy on things like business events and business events and conventions in those big cities, obviously there's a great, massive economic impact that comes from the moment that those conventions are there. But often that is somebody's first visit to Ontario, and that is our first chance to hope on coming back to Ontario as a leisure visitor with their family, to get them to be able to consider investing in Ontario, in a business or in a tourism attraction or anything, and maybe even one day down the road, becoming a resident of Ontario these Yes, we always talk about tourism being the first date of economic development, and the more we can do To get people to get that first east of Ontario, a lot of times that does happen in those in those gateway cities, that'll be something where we can help to to drive this strategy forward from those cities,

Andrew Siegwart  18:31  
that sort of concept you're talking about, that economic value chain. I mean, it cuts across economies of all sizes. So some of the biggest investors in small communities come from people who choose to live after they visited and they want to buy a second home, or they or they move to a rural community. You know, I'll just share with you, from my perspective, sometimes I think strategies like this and frameworks like this just allow us to think a little bit differently. So in the wake of our launch this week, I had someone reach out from Ontario southwest. It was a local municipality that is has been cobbling together, with an amazing amount of success, a transportation network between grand bend and Sarnia. And they were saying, you know, so Ontario strategy, this is really interesting, and we could really use some help here. And I reached out and said, Thank you for letting us know this is exactly the kind of project we want to advance. But I did something a little different. I copied Joanne wallnick from the regional Tourism Organization in my response, and said, We would all like to get together with some of your municipalities and talk about this. And I think before we did this strategy, I might have replied and said, Thank you so much. I'll bring that into our team, and let's go So even for us, thinking about how we engage the network in our work more collaboratively. So, you know, this has been a lesson for tayo s team as it much has been for everyone else, and so that's kind of the mindset that I'm bringing in my little way to we're bringing this to life. Hello. Let's zoom in a little bit to the here and now. Now, you know, we're closing, into the closing weeks of summer 2025 it's certainly been a season that's given us a lot to think about, and we've been very present. I'm sure. You know, Michael, I'm going to ask you this question, how would you describe Ontario's tourism performance this summer? You know, where are we winning? Where do we need to push harder? And it could be from the context of of Ottawa, but also, I know you're connected with many communities, so you know, what are your

Michael Crockatt  20:23  
thoughts? I guess I'll focus mostly on Ottawa, because I understand the market a little bit better than that. I do the entire province. And we're also a little different in Ottawa, because our peak time isn't necessarily the same as it is for the rest of the province. You know, July and August are busy, but not always our peak time. Our peak is usually in May and September, October. But this summer, you know, has been strong. We've seen, we've seen some great strength built on some of the major events that are, that are being held in Ottawa, even Canada, day to blues fest, to to Iron Man. Our first ever Ironman Triathlon was, was in August this year. The great thing is about those events is they give people those time bound reasons to travel, that incentive to travel for those particular dates to a place. But we also know by talking to our operators that they need more support for business events, for sports events and for festivals as well. So if there's a place to push harder, as you say, Andrew, it's to be able to continue to see that growth in some of those big events like that as well. And anything that we can do to get someone to commit to traveling sooner rather than later is great because that is one of the challenges, is just convincing people to make that jump, make that leap to travel.

Andrew Siegwart  21:32  
You know, we've been talking a lot about the makeup of our visitors this summer, how much of our visitation and spend is from domestic Canadians and Ontarians choosing to spend and travel closer to home versus overseas, or US visitors. Any observations you have on how the summer is has uh shaped

Michael Crockatt  21:50  
up? Yeah, I'll do I'll give you a couple. One we know, we know there's more international visitors coming. We have about 50% more international air access to Ottawa this summer than we had last year. So we know that there's more that's big visitors coming from, in particular from Europe, but also the connecting markets through through Paris and London, which is where our flights are from. But we also can see through some of the booking data that Canadians are having a larger market share, especially looking forward, the market share of Canadians booking for Ottawa is is higher than it would have been last year, that's exciting to know that the Canadians do want to come and explore their capital city, which is great. And anecdotally, for myself, I'm not data, but I have had more visitors coming to stay with me and visit Ottawa through summary, than ever before as well, which is great. And the other, the other piece of data, that's that's interesting. And this, we've seen this trending for a little over a little over half a year now, we monitor our net promoter score from visitors, and we have very robust data from a number of our partners who help us track this. We're talking 1000s and 1000s of samples every month that visitor Net Promoter Score for Ottawa is steadily increasing right now for us, again, being a selfish and competitor, competitive person. I interpret that partly as indicating that Canadians really do love their capital city, and maybe even more than before, right now, and those were at a point in time where, where that Canadian this of this city is, is something that is, that is really attractive to to other Canadians, that's awesome,

Andrew Siegwart  23:21  
and also that the businesses are delivering a great service too, and meeting their expectations, which is nice, because sometimes when the expectations are high, it can be hard to meet. So clearly, they're they're doing a really good job. Yeah, you're

Michael Crockatt  23:34  
exactly right. It's this. This is a measurement of perception. And yeah, if people aren't having their their needs met, we see what can happen with those never motor scores,

Andrew Siegwart  23:44  
too. On the trend side, to both of you, are there any trends that you're that you're seeing emerging or coming forward that that can inform us about the the mindset of travelers right now or or the mindset of operators, for that matter, if you don't mind,

Rebecca MacKenzie  23:57  
Michael, I'll just sort of speak from our perspective with the Culinary Tourism Alliance, so really speaking to culinary and agritourism experiences. But you know, we do see that visitors are prioritizing sort of shorter, more frequent trips, at least our domestic ones, and they're really interested in exploring, you know, some of those smaller communities and rural landscapes, or even, you know, going to some of our bigger cities for, you know, those authentic food experiences. What's nice is it aligns perfectly with what we've been championing about for culinary and agritourism for a long time, in terms of not only driving economic impact for visitors stay, but community pride. And I think, you know, it's really interesting, you know, Michael your talk about sort of that Canadian prideness. But I often maintain, when we're talking with our destinations, that we work with in collaboration with to grow food tourism in their communities, I say you can't be something to the world or to outside visitors, that you're not to yourselves. And what's super interesting is seeing that increased pride in place just to. Weeks ago, I was actually in a Laura for their food day, Canada, longest barbecue. And I have to tell you, like a couple of my colleagues and I went to help out for the day. And it was so awesome. The energy was so great that the pride in place, they had over 8000 people that came in a six for a six hour event. It was spectacular. It was such a good feeling. You know? It was such a great feeling to see that pride in place. And what's really exciting is on the food side, that interest in local and seasonal and sustainable, it continues to remain high, and visitors are actively seeking out restaurants and markets and events that showcase Ontario grown and raised ingredients. And you both know about our feast on certification program that's been running for 11 years here in Ontario. It certifies businesses that are committed to sourcing Ontario grown and raised ingredients. We've had 43 new businesses certified since January. Wow, which is amazing, and that's a clear signal that operators are responding to that consumer demand for transparency and authenticity and local impact. We've also seen an increase in experiential color and agritourism offerings by tourism operators, everything from guided farm tours to Chef led tastings, again, because travelers want to connect directly with the people in the place, while local food trend has actually been around for quite some time, I really feel like we're starting to see enough of the sort of the dream now being the reality of what people are demanding, and that's actually driving not only visitation, but increased investment from our operators to increase their offerings, which is super

Andrew Siegwart  26:39  
cool. You can see an example where people are layering on a bit more of a local food strategy. How, not only is that attractive to visitors who want to get that taste of place, but for Canadians, right now, we want to be seeing Canadian goods, not only in our restaurants or when we go out for a beverage, but in our grocery stores. Like the amount of time consumers are spending checking the labels of where things are from. It's a consumer shift. So I think that's a really good one to highlight. Michael,

Michael Crockatt  27:07  
how about you take the easy route and say, AI, but I think, I think, I think I'll take a different approach, and it's maybe not a trend, but more of an ongoing movement, I would say, around both the consumer demand for and also our responsibility for fostering more indigenous tourism. Scenario, I know this is really reflected in the strategy as well. So they there's lots of growth opportunities here. Again, this is a province wide thing. There are opportunities in every corner of Ontario to do this. And just one of the things that we have been doing over the past few years in Ottawa, and we've just had our second cohort graduating from from our indigenous tourism entrepreneurship training. What's exciting is within, when I think back to the first cohort of graduates from that there are indigenous tourism businesses that exist in Ottawa that did not exist before that, that these, these entrepreneurs have have started to have maintained now. And so we've just on July 31 was the graduation of our next cohort in partnership with the Odawa indigenous business hub here in Ottawa. This is indigenous ways of learning, and we are excited to see where these graduates go with their business ideas as well. And if we come back and talk about this, in a year, we're going to have even more indigenous tourism businesses in our community, and we'll have even more indigenous businesses throughout throughout Ontario. So and I talked at first about demand, and this is what visitors want. This is what the authentic experience is that visitors want to experience when they do Canada and when they come to Ontario. So it's part of reconciliation. It's part of economic reconciliation as well. And it's exciting to see where some of these things could go.

Rebecca MacKenzie  28:44  
Congratulations. That is, that is really awesome. And, you know, it's interesting. One of the experiences that we started creating last year, but and are delivering again this year, in partnership with indigenous tourism Ontario and Parks Canada and a new partner, Niagara Parks is a great taste of Canada Experience at Navy Hall, featuring chef Joseph shawana and taking the guests through a really immersive culinary experience that expresses the food ways of our indigenous peoples here in Ontario, we're super excited to see how many different partners are coming to the table to create this type of experience, and I love that you're fostering that entrepreneurial innovation, that collaboration that you have with Ottawa tourism, because I do think that is the role of of sector organizations and DMOS and RTOs, is to find those opportunities to lift and to elevate new opportunities for tourism growth in the indigenous space.

Andrew Siegwart  29:38  
If I step back and kind of look at what you both shared with us, I think you're tapping into something really special. In Canada, we've had an experience in the last year or so where we feel that our our values have been put under a scrutiny. We've felt a little bit threatened. We've been forced to self examine, and I think what we're seeing is we're discovering what we really like. About ourselves, we are starting to value who we are more, and I think that is creating better experiences and communication to the rest of the world. It's sort of like if you can be proud of yourself, then you can be a better host. And I think that's what's happening here in so many different ways, our food, our indigenous history, our indigenous future, and really highlighting those values is uniquely Canadian, so I think it's transformative. And you gave us a few examples of that. And I think in some respects, never wastes a crisis. And I think we're clearly rising to the challenge yet again as a sector. So thank you both for sharing both of those. I think they're very important. You.

Andrew Siegwart  30:43  
You both been in leadership roles at tayo during a time of quite a lot of change and some major shifts that kind of leadership takes not only skill but but deep commitment. Both you know what's been the most rewarding and challenging as part of your leadership journeys in in these volunteer positions

Rebecca MacKenzie  31:00  
I joined, or I became chair, in June of 2023 I guess it was so in addition to, you know, being being in a moment in time where we were still challenged with the pandemic, we also had leadership change in our president, CEO at Tayo. So there was a lot of a lot of change, both within the organization and the broader tourism industry. I have to say, The most rewarding part for me has been being able to work alongside the exceptional team of both staff and board members during this period of transition. It helped me grow as a leader and really learn to become a better listener and lean into more sort of diversified opinions we have as an organization, we've strengthened our advocacy voice. We did a great job, sort of during the pandemic, but coming out of it, we really leaned into it, and really continued to do that. We deepened our collaborations across the entire industry, and the fact that we helped to shape this strategy, it's so incredible. I think seeing the collective efforts translate into that stronger alignment clearer priorities and this sort of renewed momentum has been really fulfilling to me. I think the biggest or sort of most challenging aspect has been balancing sort of that urgent short term needs while the industry is finding sort of its footing post pandemic, along with that sort of longer term structural change is required for us to really be competitive, both with other provinces and territories and globally, and a time of sort of constantly consistent, like shifting consumer trends and labor market pressures, evolving government priorities, we have not had a pause button. I do want to say, like, Andrew, you hit the ground running. January 2024 and you literally, I feel like have not stopped, and that for me, I have learned so much with and from my experience of being on the board that has been truly priceless. Ultimately, the experience has reaffirmed my belief in the resiliency of Ontario's tourism industry. And it has been such an honor to contribute to this chapter of Tayo. S of tayo story, and I'm, you know, I'm past Chair for another year, so you haven't got rid of me yet.

Andrew Siegwart  33:14  
No, no, and we're grateful. It's one of the things I love about the model of Tayo is that there's an Vice Chair, current chair and past chair. And it really helps with exactly what you're talking about, navigating those things, because you have history and you have new ideas at the same time,

Michael Crockatt  33:30  
Rebecca has really set the bar high for board leadership. So I hope I can try and reach that bar at some point over the next little while, maybe I'll flip the order a little bit, though, because the challenging part, because we are an advocacy organization, and the challenging part about advocating for tourism, is that even though tourism is everywhere in every single corner of this province, and even though I think everybody, if this is politically speaking, but also just just the average citizen, I think appreciates the value that tourism brings to their community and let them show off their community. No one is really telling politicians on the street that it's the most important thing for them to be focusing on, and so it may not get the attention that it deserves from that empty the economic and social importance that tourism actually does bring to to communities and to our province. So, you know, that is the challenge that you primarily have, Andrew, is translating that message into into something that really does resonate, that an investment in tourism is a smart investment in the province's future. But that's also, you know, that that's also the rewarding part, is that knowing that the work that we are doing today can really set the stage for success for those who will come after us, and just as we benefit from those who came before us in this industry, I hope that one day we look back and say, remember those things that we did back in 2025, 2026 that are now we're. Our industry is reaping the rewards of this is a quote of a quote of someone else, but talking about an episode of The Office where it says, I won't get the word exactly right, but it's too bad that you don't know that you're in the good old days until after the good old days are gone, right? So maybe this is the good old days we have to be focusing on

Andrew Siegwart  35:19  
that. You know to that point about about being able to convey the impact of tourism. One of the things that I've been really pleased with, particularly this summer, was with the degree of focus and interest that federal government, provincial government, municipal government and the media all saw in tourism's ability to respond to buffer the economy. Every news story for the past six months has talked about our impact, the staycation impact, and our highlighting the need to expand and diversify our markets. So I think, think many of those stakeholders understand it in another visceral way a few years after they understood it during the pandemic. So I think, to your point, for us as an organization, it's making sure we continue to to leverage that and make sure we're part of those conversations.

Rebecca MacKenzie  36:10  
That is actually a great example, though, of because during the pandemic, people started to really understand, wow, when the visitor economy comes to a halt, the sheer impact. And then we saw the media and the political kind of side wane as the world opened. And then, you know, this January, when all of the elements came to be that threatened our sovereignty and are threatened, you know, our ability to possibly see less Americans coming to Canada, at least that renewed increase interest in supporting Canada and the value of the tourism sector. And I think what's great is we've been prepared to be an always on messaging platform, to continue to reinforce that, to find the stories, even when there isn't necessarily a big shock, to keep reinforcing the value, because it is one of those industries that, unfortunately, you don't know how good you have it until it's gone. And we don't want to be in that position again. If I had a, you know, if I had a dream, is it? Everybody's sense of Canadian pride stays in place. It doesn't wane, yeah. And in fact, it gets stronger and stronger. Because I think that that will not only help our communities flourish, it will help our sector flourish, it will help our country flourish.

Michael Crockatt  37:31  
Yeah, SARS was the first version of that, before the pandemic, where a lot of businesses that didn't think they were in the tourism business found out that they were in the tourism business. And yeah, I think that is something that I think will stick with us well into the future here too. So tourism has a new respect, I think, for coming out of that,

Andrew Siegwart  37:48  
and I think that's the real innovation in the new tourism strategy, because we're boldly saying recovery or just maintaining the status quo isn't enough. Canada needs our sector to perform better, higher, to drive our overall economy, and not only that, our reputation globally. So partners, let's get on board and make it happen, right? It's

Michael Crockatt  38:07  
one of those things that we can influence. Yes, as a promise, as an industry, there's not all parts of our economy can be grown grown intentionally, like that, but tourism can absolutely be grown intentionally.

Andrew Siegwart  38:17  
A lot of the tourism community consists of a lot of strong, strong and excellent support organizations. So everyone from a local business improvement area, a local destination marketing and management organization in a small town and in a gateway city sector organizations of every product type imaginable, social enterprise, arts enterprises, and they all have something in common. They tend to be not for profits and associations, which means in tourism, a big part of our success is how we govern organizations and how we ensure that those organizations thrive. So this is a question for all of them, to both of you as leaders of not for profits and innovative social enterprise and capacity builders. What do you think in the next few years, organizations like yours need to be doing to stay relevant and continue to drive that level of performance?

Rebecca MacKenzie  39:12  
I think you need to stay deeply connected to your shareholders. You need to maintain that really open two way communication to understand the needs you're only as relevant as your audience requires you to fulfill something that's going going to take away some of their pain, right? I think you know, being able to provide those practical tools and training and be a platform to celebrate success stories that inspire and strengthen your network of shareholders, it is critical. I think you know, from a not for profit organizational perspective, continuing to or maintaining if you don't already have one, but certainly, building a really diverse and informed board of directors is really important to have those mix of skills, those lived experiences, those different perspectives, and equipping them with. With data and insights to help guide strategic direction. That's critical, because as we all work for not for profits, but we also all volunteer for not for profits, and we know that the strength of an organization comes from the leadership and the team at the staff level, but that is equally matched by the leadership at the board level. And I will say, you know, any organization worth its weight in gold fosters an incredible team. And I do want to say, you know, Michael, kudos to you. You have an incredible team at Ottawa tourism. You foster great leadership there, and your team loves you and loves working for that organization. I think that's critical to any DMO, PMO, RTO sector organization is to have a team that, in a lot of cases, we're under resourced. We don't have enough money to have enough bodies, and so we have a lot of bodies doing the work of many and but not, you know, we, you know, often find, how do you keep your team inspired? Is you have, you have a good direction, you have a good why, and you stick with it, right? And I think lastly, managing and sharing the impact of the work that you do both with your team, your internal team, and your board and your shareholders, is so important because it's all about, you know, showing the what the capacity that you've built, the outcomes that you've been able to deliver in collaboration with them and show both your funders, your partners and the public that you can continue to be trusted and supported because you operate with transparency.

Michael Crockatt  41:29  
Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying, Rebecca, and it is and thank you very much for your kind comments about our organization. I really do appreciate it. I'm going to touch on that in a second too, but you're right that we as not for profits. We need to keep, I say, stay in our lane. Because there were, there are, there are a number of other organizations that we work with, that we partner with. We want to make sure we are doing the things that we are good at, why we exist, and that that that hopefully is enough to help those other organizations flourish as well, just as if they do their jobs well, it should. It should help us in our in our communities as well. We're fortunate in our industry that we generally have boards of directors that that have people who want to be engaged, because it's usually relevant for their business as well. So to have a very strong, engaged board with the right governance principles in place, the right oversight in place does enable a team to be, to be very effective, I will say, for for me, personally, as a as a leader, it is absolutely all about the strength of of our team, and building that capable team of motivated and passionate people that does become a magical thing, because it attracts that type of people to come and join the organization. Culture in within an organization is is an incredibly powerful thing that is hard to cultivate, hard to maintain, and requires effort and requires strategic focus to do it. And but when you have that, and when you when you have an organization, especially a not for profit, where you are doing things that benefit the community, when you have a strong foundation of trust within that organization and a trust of the people who are acting within that organization, that creates very effective people and very effective team that is that can take ownership of the things that are their responsibility. Responsibilities. And so we are lucky that we we have an incredible team here that that enables us to do that. I'm very, very, very proud of of the team that we have. And we're not the only one that has has a great team. This province is full of of incredible tourism organizations like that. But because this industry is so people focused having the right people that are working in it as well is absolutely critical, and we put a lot of effort into culture, and we always

Andrew Siegwart  43:47  
will excellent insights from both of you, you're absolutely right, and we've touched on this in a few of our discussion points here, but about the role of government and our relationship with governments. And I know we don't have to get too, too detailed, but from both of your perspectives, what is the right kind of government support look like? How do we need to be building relationships with governments going forward based on what our aspirations

Michael Crockatt  44:12  
are at a base level? I think it's about a couple of things. We talked about it earlier today already, but understanding the power of tourism is a base level. Thing is really important. There the economic impact, the social impact, the contributions that that tourism can make in a community and creating good governments will create the environment for businesses to prosper. What makes a business or an individual want to invest what makes them want to grow here? How do we create that environment that fosters that as well, and then translating that again to the understanding that investments in tourism, both from the government sector, but also creating that environment for the private sector to invest, both of those investments have very strong ROI for government itself. So the taxation benefit. That comes to government from this industry is massive, and we also know that we can do more with more, if we can create more businesses, if we can create that environment that encourages investments into into Ontario, and if governments can invest more in tourism, that is going to have even bigger economic impacts for businesses, but also that direct taxation revenue back to the government. I mean, it's a it's a federal issue. It's not, it's not a provincial one. But the the the International Convention attraction fund might be the best example of this. That's that's ever been, been demonstrated because it, it has proven that the investment made by the federal government is helping to attract conventions to Canada that would not have been able to be been attracted without that investment, and it is generating more in federal taxation dollars, not just economic impact, but Federal Taxation dollars around the amount that's being vested by the government. So the ROI just to the government, is positive, and then you think of what that ROI is when you calculate all the economic impact from these events, it's it's incredible. So again, the challenge that we have is translating all of that into action. From a relation standpoint.

Andrew Siegwart  46:12  
Think the stat on that in terms of economic return, isn't it like almost 17 to one for every dollar spent, $17 are rippling into the economy. So yeah, it's significant.

Rebecca MacKenzie  46:21  
Well, I mean, building on the the sort of economic driver when government, you know, is aligned with our strategy, federally, provincially, or even locally. Because, you know, it does start at the grassroot, grassroots level. And we talk about a lot of the work that we do at tayo with the provincial government, and, of course, filtering up to the the national but there's so much work done at that local DMO level to even educate local council about the value of tourism. I believe that alignment also comes into play when we talk about tourism as a community builder, when we grow tourism in a meaningful way, ultimately, the locals benefit as much as the visitors. And so I think continuing to reinforce that in our communications to government and really work on policies that make it easier for business operators to to do business, to cut some red tape, so that, you know, we can advance. And seeing the right type of development and new product and experience come to market is important. Market is important. If I if I could, I know this is a touchy subject, and I know years and years ago, you used to be able to get multi year funding, but as time has gone by, we find there's a lot of one year funding programs, and they're just not effective. We need government to realize, like anything that you're going to invest in, it's like growing a new business, and you need two to three years of support to really get off the ground and running and make sure that you create other revenue streams for those initiatives so that they can stay in place beyond an initial one year funding period. So I think when as when as we're looking to government or asking for support at a local a provincial or federal level, is get them to start thinking longer term commitments to make sure that what their investments can see that same kind of ROI. Because I think if you invested over a longer period of time to ensure that the investments made are economically viable to live beyond any seed funding, that ROI percentage would increase year over a year, substantially,

Andrew Siegwart  48:21  
I've got one final question for you, and then we're going to try something new on forward motion and have a bit of fun before we close out. For those who are considering a career in tourism, you know, we talk a lot about actually, the purpose of this whole podcast is to really shine a light on all the dynamic career opportunities in tourism. For both of you, what advice would you give to young students who are looking at tourism and thinking, Hmm, what kind of career could I fashion in this industry? What advice would you give them?

Rebecca MacKenzie  48:49  
Well, I actually taught at George Brown in a food tourism entrepreneurship course for past three years, so I've had the pleasure of coming in direct contact with students, and one of the first things I say is get involved early. I involved early. I said, you know, volunteer join committees. Say yes to opportunities and tourism. If you want to know what something what it's going to be like to work in a certain opportunity, go and find people who are doing great work. Ask them for a coffee date. Ask them to spend 45 minutes of their time, you know, giving you some advice, and then ask them how you can volunteer for their organization and and get involved. You know, the the incredible thing about the tourism industry is that we are a network of very passionate people. I never say no to someone who asks for for an hour of my time to give them some guidance. And I've gone on to mentor many because I remember what it was like when I was first starting. And I'll tell you one thing I know. I don't know a lot of things, but what I do know is how to find the person who knows something boldly ask them to share their vision or their ideas or, you know, their insights, with me. And I think that that's so critical every single job I have, including the one i. I have today started with volunteering. How

Michael Crockatt  50:02  
about you? Michael, a similar vein, right? I would encourage someone considering a career in tourism to try everything, meet everyone, advocate for yourself, but also be patient as well, because sometimes these things do take some time, and I want to advocate myself a little bit for more entrepreneurship. I'm also a big supporter of education, formal education, informal education. I went to university for a very long time, far too long. I do believe in the value of education, but I also believe in the value of entrepreneurship, and if there's a way that we can encourage more young people to even just try to start a business before they go to school. If we can have more people trying to start businesses, we will have more successful businesses. They won't all work, and someone will, somebody have to go back to school. But if we can find ways to, as an industry and as as leaders, to spark some of those ideas and support some of those ideas, to start more more tourism businesses, in particular, it'll it'll strengthen our industry going, for instance, an industry full of small businesses, and the more we can have, the

Rebecca MacKenzie  51:05  
better. I love that, Michael and you know, honestly, when, when we hire at the CTA, we look for people with an entrepreneurial spirit, the great thing about entrepreneurs is, if they don't know how to do something, they don't take no for an answer, they'll figure it out. So when you hire someone with an entrepreneurial spirit, it's like, okay, great. You've got somebody who's inquisitive, who's really willing to get their hands dirty and figure out how to find solutions. And I think you're absolutely right. This is a tough job market for young people right now. If you can't find a job, go in and figure out how to create your own there. That's the great thing about Ontario and on Canada, there's lots of opportunities

Michael Crockatt  51:42  
for that. I'll just add something from our organization. I mean, we, we have a lot of people here who have side hustles, so they are also entrepreneurs, on top of their regular day job as well. And so it's, you're right, it's a, it's a mindset for sure, yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  51:54  
you know, it's funny, uh, you're, you're reminding me of, I'm going back in time. So when in my education journey. So I did a year, and then I took a break, as many young kids do, especially in my generation. Oh, actually, it wasn't as common back then. But one of the things that I did with two friends of mine, we saw an ad in the newspaper. There was a local motel in English River between Uppsala and igdes in Northwestern Ontario. This couple owned a motel, and they were looking for people to run a restaurant out of the restaurant that they couldn't run. So we looked at each other, and I said, Well, I've worked in restaurants, and my friends said we've worked in kitchens. So we got a credit card, we moved up there, and we opened a restaurant in two weeks, and we did it for a year, and it was the best learning experience I've ever had. And you know, it was tough. I mean, you know, you're selling pies on the highway, literally. But we ended up bagging a contract with with loggers, and ended up feeding a logging company for an entire year. Amazing. It was so fun. And then I went back to school eventually. But you know what was interesting at the time, I almost felt a sense of shame about it. It was like, Oh, I have to take a break from school. I'm not being successful here. I'll do this. And then eventually I got back to it, and you realize actually those pathways can be very enriching, right? So I think that's really good advice, and it worked for me. Okay, I am going to try something new with both of you. It's a quick round of questions. I'll start with Michael, then I'll end with Rebecca. As best as you can, try to give me a one one word response, Michael, one word to describe Ontario's tourism industry right now, opportunity, one destination in Ontario, besides Ottawa, where everyone should visit this year,

Michael Crockatt  53:29  
this be a little bit with a longer answer than one word. But I'm actually Northwestern Ontario, and I'll say Kenora specifically, close to, close to my home, original home in Winnipeg, close to your your restaurant in Ignace. But also, I'll say to people listening who aren't familiar with Kenora, beautiful, beautiful place. But also look up the origin of the name Kenora, because that's an interesting story.

Andrew Siegwart  53:51  
Okay, some homework for us done. And innovation and tourism that excites you the most,

Michael Crockatt  53:56  
that can't be one word, any innovation that reduces friction in travel. I know some people like slow travel, but which is great, but efficient travel is also going to help us. And I think that's, that's that's a big one for us.

Andrew Siegwart  54:10  
A mentor or a colleague that shaped your leadership.

Michael Crockatt  54:13  
My boss at Winnipeg Airport Authority, Peggy May, taught me more about leadership in her time as my as my boss than anybody else in my life, and she passed away last year. She is the greatest mentor and leader that

Andrew Siegwart  54:29  
I've ever worked with. Well, thanks for sharing that a tourism myth. You wish people understood was wrong.

Michael Crockatt  54:34  
Tourism is not it is your family vacation, but it is not just your family vacation. Tourism is big business, and it means a lot to this province.

Andrew Siegwart  54:43  
Awesome. Well done. Rebecca, one word to describe Ontario's tourism industry right now, resilient, one destination in Ontario, besides the county that everyone should consider visiting this year.

Rebecca MacKenzie  54:53  
Bit longer answer. I'm going to say Niagara region, because we've seen fabulous growth in feast on certified operating. Dollars from that region. So everything from restaurant Pearl Morissette that got the Michelin green award this past year, Fat Rabbit, ravine, Trias, South Brook, strewn terroir, restaurant, smoking Buddha, wine country, cookery school, terroir, restaurant, wine bar, Peninsula Ridge, barrel head, we also all of these join the ranks with Niagara Parks. I love what Niagara Parks is doing. They're opening a new attraction this year, and of course, it's home to where we are having our second great taste of Canada Experience at Navy Hall on November 29 so really cool stuff going on for taste of place in Niagara

Andrew Siegwart  55:35  
amazing. One innovation and tourism that excites you the most. I

Rebecca MacKenzie  55:38  
know you mentioned this earlier, Michael, I was like, well, AI adopting it. Enough said

Andrew Siegwart  55:44  
a mentor or colleague that's shaped your leadership style.

Rebecca MacKenzie  55:47  
My greatest leadership influence has come in the last couple of years, and it's from my team. I work with an absolutely legendary group of folks. They challenge me, they inspire me. They teach me every day. They have no fear in calling out any of my successes, but also where I might have some weaknesses. And like, we have built a really great trusting environment where we can have honest and fun and hard conversations. And I have to say, like it's been an absolute joy the last couple of years to work with this team and learn from and with them. And I'm I'm so grateful. I have had an incredible career in tourism, and I wake up pretty much every day happy to go to work. But the last couple years has been really hard, but it's been made so much easier because I have this, this great team that I get to work with. So it's not one individual, it's a

Andrew Siegwart  56:48  
collective, a tourism myth. You wish people understood was wrong

Rebecca MacKenzie  56:52  
that tourism is a multi day stay. You can be a tourist in your own backyard. Look at I just discovered Markham, which is, you know, by the definition of tourism, it's, it's far enough for me away from where I live, for me to be a tourist when I go there. Oh my gosh. It's got amazing food scene, but it's also got this incredible spa. If you ever get to go to the Go spa in Markham, epic. It's like a six star spa I didn't even know amazing. We all in tourism love that longer stay visitor. And of course, we all, we all want that from a a longer stay, bigger impact perspective. But you know, similar to sort of that conference or event goer, when you can turn someone who's never been to your destination, from your own province and has never been there and turned them into a visitor, even for a day, then that will neck hopefully be the next time they'll think about, oh, well, we should go and spend more days, or we should spend more time up there. Or, Hey, look at maybe that's a cool place to start a food tour business as an example.

Andrew Siegwart  57:55  
Thank you both for workshopping the rapid fire round with me. I loved it. It was great. Lots of insights at a short amount of time. Thank you both so much, not only for joining us for today, not only for sharing all of your insights with our tourism community, but I want to thank you for your leadership of tayo, your support to our great staff team. You've been amazing champions of us and the whole team for many years, it's a big part of our collective success, and our members are better off for it. So Rebecca, we're glad that we've had such a great opportunity to benefit from your leadership, and we look forward to continue to working with you and Michael. We're really excited to have you on board as our chair, and I look forward to future discussions, yeah,

Rebecca MacKenzie  58:39  
and I'm super excited for the Chayo Summit coming up in Ottawa later this fall, and get an opportunity to celebrate collectively, all the wins that we've had over the last couple of years. Thanks so much for your time today.

Andrew Siegwart  58:52  
Andrew, thank you and Michael. We know we're going to be putting on one heck of a party in Ottawa.

Michael Crockatt  58:57  
We are looking forward to welcoming everybody here for summit this year as well.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  59:01  
Thanks for listening to forward motion. This show is created by the tourism industry association of Ontario and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the sound off media company. You.