Preserving Ontario’s Past: Heritage, Identity & Opportunity

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:01  
Foreign This is forward motion discussions about the important topic shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew sigward.

Andrew Siegwart  0:09  
In this episode, we sit with the architectural Conservancy of Ontario to explore why Heritage Preservation isn't just about saving old buildings. It's about sustaining identity, sparking economic revitalization and enriching tourism. We unpack the meaning behind a CEOs mantra, keep fix reuse, and dive into how built heritage contributes to community vitality, from preventing unnecessary demolitions to advancing adaptive reuse. We explore what it takes to protect places that matter and how great preservation fuels great destinations. Let's get right to it. Well, thank you everyone for being with us today on our forward motion Podcast. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. We're going to talk a little bit about the keep, fix, reuse and why heritage matters now more than ever, and this is really fun for me. This is our, my first global podcast, as part of this, where we have panelists today joining us from Waterloo, Muskoka, I'm here in Toronto, and we also have Lynn joining us from Switzerland. So this is really going to be quite a fun conversation. Kay, I'm going to start with you. For those who may not be familiar, can you tell us about the architectural Conservancy of Ontario? What's your mandate, history and what drives your work? We're

Kae Elgie  1:23  
a provincial charity that is committed to conserve and adaptively reuse buildings, landscapes and in districts of importance to Ontarians, and we have a number of branches across the province, as well as a number of members outside of the particular centers where we have branches, and we were established in 1933 so we're just over, just over 90 years old.

Andrew Siegwart  1:52  
Wow. And what? What drove you specifically to take a role in supporting and serving this organization? I

Kae Elgie  1:59  
think there were a couple of things. When my daughter was 732, years ago, she got me really concerned about the environment and the climate, and my husband was really interested in heritage, got our house designated as a designated heritage landmark. And he's also taken a lot of photographs of Waterloo and of our changing landscape. And I think those two things together got me really interested. And as I learned more about it, I realized that see, keeping and reusing and fixing up our existing buildings was a great way to help the climate, because we don't use new emissions. We don't cart stuff off to the dump. So those things have really motivated me to keep involved with ACO. What

Andrew Siegwart  2:44  
does it mean to to keep, fix and reuse in terms of communities and economies like, what is it? What does it deliver to a community?

Kae Elgie  2:52  
There's so many benefits. We outline these every year. When we meet with with members of the Provincial Parliament, we do an annual meeting at Queen's Park, and we talk about the fact that there's more jobs when you renovate and rebuild, re, reuse buildings, and then in new construction, it's really great for the environment, as already mentioned, because we're not manufacturing new places. We're reusing those things where the carbon has been stored for for 100 years, sometimes using that and of course, we always talk to them about the tourism aspects of it. You know that that these become popular places for people to visit, sometimes to see the original state, but more often to see how people have creatively reused them. And I think the fourth thing, that the fourth reason, is just how important these are to people's well being. You know, they contribute so much. And again, there's a really interesting study done in Britain about the positive impacts of visiting heritage sites.

Andrew Siegwart  3:55  
Is it part of a nostalgia play, in a way where just being in those environments makes you feel good. Is it? Is it connected to history, authenticity? Like, what did that study sort of point out? Yeah,

Kae Elgie  4:08  
it showed that people felt like when they visited a museum or a historic place, they felt like they were connected in a way, you know, so there's that sense of connection, probably, connection to the past. They felt that that people there really cared about the building. So they felt like personally respected, and they made them more cheerful, made them more joyful. Just to, I think, to appreciate that. I'm really thrilled to see the number of sites that are now going beyond the colonial settler history and going back and including elements of in our pre contact, indigenous history and so on, and bringing that in. And I think that whole richness is is something that really makes people just feel more confident, more connected, more optimistic. One

Lynne D. DiStefano  4:58  
of the things I'm. Listening to Kay and the importance of our heritage building stock in terms of well being. And increasingly, there are more and more articles that have appeared or people being interviewed about the scourge of loneliness, and the loneliness is all about lack of connection, and that's what Kay was talking about, that heritage buildings offer one of the many ways for people to have a connection, whether it's with something from the past, or feeling about what is happening today, through the care of an historic building. But I think this is an important aspect of heritage, that it does offer connection in a society that's becoming increasingly lonely, and

Andrew Siegwart  5:50  
especially with us being so connected digitally, so going to these physical spaces, it does offer some benefits. We're talking about the concept of heritage value, and sort of trying to define that a bit more so, you know, you talked a little bit about connection. What other what other ways could you describe heritage value, beyond architectural style, like, what? What else is there to it when we, when we try to define heritage value,

Lynne D. DiStefano  6:14  
traditional values have been architectural or design value and historical value. Increasingly people understand the importance of social value, and of course, this again relates to the feelings of connection people have with a particular place. We can also talk about values in the more contemporary way. We can talk about economic value, and that is a valid value, although it's not one you see being used officially in Ontario. So values can be traditional values, or they can be contemporary values, and traditional architectural or design historical. We can also talk about contextual value, and increasingly, it's important to include social value, and we can also begin to look at things in terms of contemporary values, such as economic value. And in fact, all values can have a contemporary value aspect.

Andrew Siegwart  7:18  
When you say contemporary value, what do you mean by that? Today,

Lynne D. DiStefano  7:23  
the value is a value we place on a heritage building today, so economic value would be a contemporary value.

Andrew Siegwart  7:34  
It's not just about the past or nostalgia, it's actually what it what it can be bringing to us today. You mentioned that you felt that perhaps in Ontario, where maybe we're not leveraging that economic potential, what do you mean by that?

Lynne D. DiStefano  7:48  
I think we use it certainly when we're doing adaptive reuse, but it's not officially recognized as a value when you're designating a building. And I think social value is not adequately recognized. It usually falls into the category of historical value, so it becomes socio historic. And Kay may disagree with me, which is great.

Kae Elgie  8:13  
I just wanted to add that that there's an economic value that I don't think we take advantage of enough, and that is just realizing that that tourists who come for cultural, cultural heritage tourism spend more than other tourists, you know, and so I don't think that communities always realize, maybe other tourism operators don't realize there's potential in reaching out to these and maybe, as a CEO, we haven't done that either, to reach out to that. But, you know, I was thinking about some some projects that have have succeeded and had challenges and and I feel that if people realize what that's bringing to the community to keep these buildings, you know, like the tourism aspect, among other things, and I don't think municipalities recognize that, and I certainly have a sad story I can share that kind of illustrates that, you

Lynne D. DiStefano  9:09  
know, I could just add something to this discussion. I think it's really important what Kay has brought up. And one of the things is, tourism does attract dollars. It's very important that local communities support local businesses who will benefit from tourism, rather than multinational businesses or large chains where the economic returns go back to the company, rather than staying primarily locally. So this is a very important part of tourism, and if we want to help keep communities alive and authentic as they open their doors to tourists, we have to support local businesses who will benefit and put the money back. Back into the local

Andrew Siegwart  10:01  
economy in tourism, such a high, high percentage of tourism businesses are local and independent. And you know, it's a real opportunity. I think some of the challenges there sometimes the smaller independents might not have the budgets or the access to capital that larger firms do, and therefore it's even harder for them to get into the conservation space. Have either of you sort of seen an example or a program where smaller businesses have been able to leverage that?

Kae Elgie  10:32  
I mean, I think I saw some, some inklings of that when I think about the amazing Jane's walk weekend that Windsor Essex put together, where it's two weekends of largely historic heritage focus walks, and they've done this for a couple of years. They invite every heritage and historical organization in in the county to participate in it, and they very enthusiastically do. And I started seeing last year that some of the businesses were starting to make special sales, you know, or say, Jane's walk, Jane's walk customer, you know. So I think people are starting do that now, whether that's formally happening, I don't know but, but to me, that's the kind of thing that that would be so exciting to see.

Andrew Siegwart  11:22  
I like what you're talking about there, because it's an adjacency, right? So you can have small businesses in and around the community of conservation where they're benefiting and participating, even if they themselves might not be able to be in a Heritage property, per se, that's right. So it's building ecosystems that thrive on on heritage and preservation and what all of what that means. Catherine, any any thoughts to share on that I

Catherine Naismith  11:47  
have attended two or three conferences in internationally where the subject of the conference was juggling heritage and heritage tourism and over tourism and the damage that a community reaches that saturation point, and tourism becomes a nuisance, and more than a nuisance, and becomes destructive to the point where where people start moving who have lived in that community start moving away, because, because there is happening. Certainly, Amsterdam is completely overwhelmed by tourism. And Quebec City and in Canada is there at certain times of the year where you just would, I really want to live with that much going on. So it's and I'm not sure that using tourism as a reason for conservation is going to yield the kind of results in a community. My husband and I were visiting Portland, you know, good 2025, years ago. It's such a beautiful city, and we, we were really impressed, and we walked into a little shop in these back in the days when you bought maps, the shop owner and I said, we know how much we are enjoying ourselves nice. And then the shop owner said, you know, I'm really glad you're having a good time, but don't tell anybody, because they like the fun lights that they had in that city, and they'd work really hard to make it a wonderful place for themselves. And you know, the world was discovering it, and they and I think he felt that it was, it was sort of threatening the balance of life in the community. So I think that's something there's just to watch and monitor. And when places become over touristed, then they lose, they lose, it becomes a negative factor. And then people don't want to live there, and people don't want

Lynne D. DiStefano  13:21  
to go there, so it's a juggle. Then we can look at stranford Again, a theater place, but stranford seems a little different. It has a longer High Street. Many of the stores are still serving the local community. There's a bookstore, for example, which I think is always indicative of a community's health. I think because Stratford is somewhat isolated, it's not unpopular, certainly superb theater, but you have to work hard to get there.

Catherine Naismith  13:52  
Stratford just has a whole lot more going going on. Is far more going on there than just the theater or Kath. I think

Lynne D. DiStefano  13:58  
you're right, because Stratford, it is, it's the but county building is there in Stratford, so it's a government center for the the area.

Andrew Siegwart  14:09  
So let's, let's highlight some, you know, give us a few examples of some other communities where you've seen the positive and the sort of balanced approach, where Heritage Preservation and visitor economy growth have grown in a harmonious way. Are there other other communities or examples that jump out?

Lynne D. DiStefano  14:29  
What about St Mary's Ontario? Oh, that is a lovely one. And of course, it has a bookstore, it, it's it, it's a smaller community. You can easily get to Stratford if you want, you know, take advantage of what Stratford offers. But it has a very active little historical society. I believe it's officially called, there's great pride by local community members in the history of St Mary, great pride in the buildings, a wide range of buildings, heritage. Large buildings. The main street relatively short. It offers all the shops necessary for people that live there. I think there might be one hotel or there used to be.

Andrew Siegwart  15:11  
So it's developed a nice sort of small town community flavor. And does it? Does it attract a certain amount of visitation? That's

Lynne D. DiStefano  15:20  
a very good question. If our house guest was here, that's Dan Schneider Kathy, I would say, Dan, how many people visit St Mary's? And of course, he would puff up a bit and be able to say how many? Probably, so it wouldn't be high visitation, but there is enough there to attract people.

Catherine Naismith  15:39  
Poor hope comes to mind for me, for me, yeah, and Perth and God Rich is another one where, where there's lots of reasons to visit and lots of lots of reasons and like, people want lots of reasons to live there. People are involved in all kinds kinds of activities. You know? They're, they're multi dimensional communities, and yet they're very

Lynne D. DiStefano  16:01  
beautiful, and they feel too so tell

Andrew Siegwart  16:03  
me about Port Hope when they were the how does the How has the heritage aspects contributed to the attractiveness of the community? What have they done uniquely there that that you think has been a part of its success?

Catherine Naismith  16:17  
Well, Port Hope is a is an interesting one for for ACO, because we, one of our longest standing branches is there, and one of our former presidents who was, I think, you know, one of the only other person who was president twice of the organization. Her name was ak skulthorpe. They were very, very early into conserving the Main Street and looking at it from a heritage perspective, and restoring all the main street buildings and and the other person who was active there was Peter Stokes. He was involved in in who's a very important heritage person in ACO, was involved in restoring the former hotel into into rooming houses, like rooming space upstairs, and that's a good chunk of the main street, but it was over 1520 year time, there was just a huge amount of energy and recognition among the merchants and the building owners and the community of how valuable that Main Street was and its history, and they made a huge investment. It took a very, very long time before they could get the municipality to agree to a heritage district designation to took many, many years of so all of the all the initial work was done. It was community driven kind of sense that that if they did this collectively, it would all benefit. And then, and then, ultimately, it became a heritage district. And is, you know, is a great source of pride. And also in other parts of the of that town, there are many, many, you know, private residences, buildings that have been, have been restored. And there's a great, great and very deep interest in Heritage Preservation there and that's been followed with arts festivals and theater and a whole lot of other things have kind of come and so it's, it's quite a successful community in many dimensions, and it's its nearest neighbor is, is Coburg, which is also a very excellent Main Street. There's a friendly competition between the two communities and and and the symbiosis in people visiting both places in a, you know, in a day or two, and moving back and forth between them.

Andrew Siegwart  18:34  
Yeah, and that's great because it it can balance the flow of people. Competition is a great way to to stimulate good outcomes as well. And good to that's good to

Catherine Naismith  18:45  
hear a lot of mix of successful heritage communities are also successful

Andrew Siegwart  18:50  
arts communities. Yeah, there's a good combination between those two, isn't there? I mean,

Catherine Naismith  18:55  
it's like new new ideas need old buildings. And, you know, it kind of builds up from there, right? And not

Kae Elgie  19:00  
to omit the role of ACO in that I think ACO stepped into to actually purchase a couple of buildings, like their little cottage that that's used for programming, also the the former bank that the Opera House and so on. So has helped, has helped to do that, that, you know, turn them back to the community. And they also do really successful House tours. And, you know, really involve the whole community in celebrating the their accomplish the heritage accomplishments,

Andrew Siegwart  19:39  
when a municipality or when a when communities are interested in setting up historic districts or Heritage Preservation districts. What are some of the barriers that they they experience with municipalities, like, what? Why is it seems so difficult to to take a community and turn it into a preservation district? What are the barriers there? Well.

Kae Elgie  19:59  
Well, I can speak to that personally, living in a heritage conservation district, the only one in the city of Waterloo, and watching what happened in in another neighborhood that was almost as old as ours, you know. But, but, yeah, I think people really worry about the effect on their property value. So individual property owners, they they feel that it's going to be more expensive. Well, sometimes people don't like the thought that they will be restricted from doing anything. Yeah, any kind of limitation is seen as even though the advice they get may may help them maintain their building better. That, you know, there's that So, but, you know, all these things can be negotiated. And that's, in fact, what we did in our area. I went around every house and we had meetings, and people were worried about certain things, so we didn't stress those. You know, we got things that everybody in the neighborhood agreed on, and made sure they were aware of it so, so it can be done and, and I think these days, I mean, I feel there's a similar challenge with encouraging people to build sustainably, like to have green development standards, which is my current campaign, my current passion. And, you know, it's, it's a whole education thing, you know, to realize that, that if you build more efficiently. They'll be cheaper. The buildings will be cheaper to operate in the long run. Will not only improve the climate, but the climate for everyone, but the climate within your house will be better, you know? So there's, there's things like that, so, so it's that education thing that that's really challenging to be out there.

Catherine Naismith  21:39  
Towards the end of my career, I did quite a number of heritage conservation districts as as a consultant. The one my favorite ones, and the ones that I think have been the most successful, were ones where it was the community kind of got together and said that we want to make sure that we keep what what is important here, and that it doesn't, doesn't get get damaged. And most of those were in Toronto, where the development pressure is, is really crazy, and so people are worried about about what will happen in their community, so that it kind of organically develops. You know, the heritage district as a, as a as a way of maintaining the kind of sense of place that people value and that. But you know, it works best when it is people getting together and finding out what it is they value in their community and working, working to write a heritage district regulation that will work for that specific community. Sometimes it, you know, the most interesting recently, one that I was involved in. I wasn't in I wasn't in consultant, but I was a resident in this one designation of Kensington Market. Now that was one where it's, you know, it's very important to be able to to allow for the constant evolution of the place without it becoming overwhelmed with development and consolidation of lots and bigger and bigger and bigger. So that was, was a it's just passed, it's just come into force, and we'll see, you know, how much, how much it helps to conserve what's there. But it's not, in that case, it wasn't any specific building or bunch of buildings that was important. It's how they're occupied and and how they're used, and keeping the footprints of building small, and letting and letting, giving the owners the freedom to do what, all the kind of crazy stuff that goes on in market. But it

Andrew Siegwart  23:27  
is an example of helping us think about heritage, not in just built form terms or static terms. But part of the magic of that community is that it does evolve, that there is a little bit of chaos and and a hodgepodge feel, which is, of course, what you want to protect because of its authenticity. Yeah, it's a really good example. Yeah,

Lynne D. DiStefano  23:45  
it expresses, I think, quite well, social

Catherine Naismith  23:48  
value. The terminology is, is well applied there. I Yeah, and we live there. So we were, we were very involved. And it was a very happy process, beginning to end. You know, it was really pushed for by the community, and there was a strong interest in in from a city, and in making it happen. The in biggest, the biggest challenge is there just, there aren't enough resources, municipal resources to designate them. They all the neighborhoods that would like to be heritage districts. It's those, yeah, can't keep up. Can't begin to keep

Andrew Siegwart  24:21  
up. I feel like there's a bit of a race against the clock in some ways, as we're trying to balance societal priorities. So I think of housing, the need for housing, and then you're seeing the sort of policy changes, and then you're looking at where this is taking place. I personally live in the junction neighborhood, and you're seeing some real some backlash coming on right now with some of the towers that have been that are coming up in the areas where, you know, there's, there's concentrations of concentrations of transit. So in some respects, it's really good. So one of the things that I'm seeing, and this is a long preamble, but you know, there's a couple of ways in which we're seeing Heritage Preservation take shape to accommodate some of this den. City, it's, you know, facade ism or, you know, maybe singular uses of properties, as opposed to mixed use, or trying to integrate residential as well as commercial, to sort of maybe save parts of buildings that could still offer value. You know, I'm wondering from each of you, what's your sense on on how mixed use can be integrated into these kinds of initiatives, and whether something like facade ism is a good thing a bad thing. You know, curious to get your thoughts,

Catherine Naismith  25:30  
my husband has coined a lovely term, and my husband is Robert also, which is calls it doesn't use the term facadeism. He calls it urban taxidermy, which, you know, I think people get right away, because what, I mean, what you've got, what, in that case, you've got the kind of the skin of a building it's been preserved within, you know, beyond any kind of normal level. And, you know, it's perfect in its sterility and and what goes on behind it has little value. And, you know, the problem is you get, you get these kind of strips of shop fronts. And in, you know, the new development has completely different kinds of requirements. It has, you know, elevators, parking, ramps, all these things going on and, yeah, any even the chances of preserving a small shop footprint for like a tiny operation becomes very, very difficult, not to mention that they take everything out so they can get a ton of underground parking underneath. So, you know, then some ways, you know, these things are nice to look at as you go by on the street, they have completely lost any kind of function, purpose, meaning community value in terms of of the kind of stuff we were talking about in Canada market where there's a lot going on in them, like the richness of the moon Street, the small, small piece. I talk about that as old growth forests, you know, all these businesses coming going and owners coming in at different times, and that's interesting, and it has a long term value in a community. They never get out of out of a large development, and

Lynne D. DiStefano  27:07  
no matter whether some of the original buildings are kept as facades or not, I am not a fan of facadeism in Asia, it had quite a healthy life for a long time. But most people, not most people, but thoughtful practitioners in Asia, are not fans of facadeism in large urban areas, because it's been demonstrated, all you're keeping is a skin of one of the facades. So you can argue that it gives people a sense of scale at street level. You can argue that it gives a historic connection. And all that's true, but what you're doing is a disservice, I think, to giving opportunity for good design for new builds, because keeping the facade in a way, hampers the designer of a thoughtful new mixed use building. Now, if I had some friends here from Toronto, I think they would disagree with me, but I think about the state of design in Toronto, there's some wonderful buildings, but there could be more wonderful buildings if they weren't hampered by the requirement to keep a facade. And it

Andrew Siegwart  28:33  
was another question that I had, which is, you know, are there times when it is totally appropriate for a demolition so that good future design can be fully realized, I think, is that sort of what your

Lynne D. DiStefano  28:46  
your idea ideally you want to keep the buildings.

Kae Elgie  28:49  
I agree with you about the futility the urban taxidermy, because I mean, from is this, from an environmental point, you're not gaining anything by just so just keeping these few bricks. On the other hand, I know I have been involved locally trying to keep, like, our zoning by law in Waterloo says we'll have a maximum of four stories on the main street, and I would still fight for that, even though I realize it's going to do weird things through the design. Nobody's built it, yet it's been approved. But, you know, the climate's been so weird. So I don't know, I see your points, but I mean, ideally, I would love to see people really use that building some way, you know, and my my solution, my current solution, thinking about how we solve the housing crisis is the gentle intensification route, and not these big units that increasingly nobody is building, even though they've been approved to be built and people are not buying if they're condos and so on. You know, so all for these smaller units. But I realize that's going to create problems. Problems in neighborhoods too. Not everybody wants to think of their the lovely neighborhood they have in their heritage conservation district being disruptive. But, you know, by by suddenly, four units. But I've seen some really great examples of that happening, not in the Heritage Conservation District either. But, you know, within Waterloo, you know, can you give us an example? Yeah, people had an existing coach house. They've expanded it. People have added to the back. You know, some people have demolished, but, you know, so far, it's mostly been houses that had not been well maintained. But I have seen some very sensitive examples of it so far. And I look around, and there are some neighborhoods with very large lots, and it's entirely possible to imagine an additional dwelling in the back, or an extension, and soon, yeah, when people are doing their garage, it's really great. They had this wonderful garage on the lane, and they're turning that into a residence for their for their mother.

Andrew Siegwart  30:59  
So, yeah, yeah, it's a great, it's a great opportunity when the site permits it. Yeah, I'd

Lynne D. DiStefano  31:04  
like to clarify the discussion on facadeism, because I'm, I'm talking about the replacement of 234, story buildings, or even six story and sometimes higher, by developers with 30 some story buildings and and keeping and keeping a facade on the ground floor. So that's what I'm responding to. In terms of design, what Kay's talking about is absolutely the right way to go, is you keep that building additions or another structure in the back, whatever is allowable. I also, in terms of facadeism, there are, at least, there's at least one wonderful example in Ontario, and that is in Ottawa, and it is the pressed metal facade which was saved and mounted as

Andrew Siegwart  31:54  
a piece of art. Oh, I know you're talking about in the market, right? Yes.

Lynne D. DiStefano  31:58  
And that, to me, is a wonderful example of saving a facade, because it's just saying this is unique. The material has been used in a wonderful way to create an incredibly good design. And why would you throw it away? The other thing, when you talked about whether high rise buildings should be mixed use or not. I thinking about all the urban centers worldwide. Some of the most successful high rise buildings are mixed use buildings, but they're carefully designed with an understanding of what works at street front, especially what helps to bring the community into the shops at street level. And this is something that is not happening in parts of Ontario, because chains step in and replace local businesses. And I live in a building where that's what happened, and it's because the developer is able to maximize profit by bringing in, you know, conglomerates, rather than supporting single owner shops, services, etc, and plus, usually the ground floor of new developments, it's not broken up into smaller shops, but bigger shops,

Catherine Naismith  33:12  
they tend to be shallow, shallow, and the historic stuff is long and narrow,

Andrew Siegwart  33:17  
and these are shallow and wide. Yeah, they correct. And it

Catherine Naismith  33:21  
makes it, makes it very limited occupancy. But because, because they're shallow and wide, the windows tend to be full of you get the back end of the of the display, or the windows are kind of boarded up because they they need the shell space.

Andrew Siegwart  33:34  
Certainly in some of the big cities across Ontario, where there's been more of condominium development, you're seeing a lot of those places built, but not least. So there's a so an empty storefront dynamic with some of these brand new properties as well, which I think does not add to the to the sense of community at all. So it feels like missed opportunity. I'm just

Catherine Naismith  33:55  
saying that renting new spaces and is an issue, whoever the condominium owners or the owns those shops expecting a certain rent, and they don't. They never drop it. If those rents were dropped, they might get some interesting things happening in those spaces. Well,

Andrew Siegwart  34:09  
it brings me to a question I'm wondering if each of you could comment on, I think the success often depends on who's at the helm, so who's ultimately managing a project like this. What are some of the pros and cons of projects that are led by either communities, governments, not for profits, private developers like have you seen certain groups or communities be more successful at that? And if so, why?

Kae Elgie  34:34  
I have my sad story, which just a small one, but it was in St Andrews West, which is a little community north of Cornwall. It had a convent, and of course, the big church and the rectory across the road and the convent, when the order moved out, became a school, first elementary school, and then the high school, where people, everyone in that community, went to that high school. But at a certain point. Mean the Catholic school board built a low rise Elementary School beside it, and they decided they wanted this convent down so they'd have a bigger playground for the children. The community went to the Ontario heritage board and so on, and it's got it designated because it meant so much to them. That's where they became teachers and all this stuff. And for about 30 years, they managed to keep the building alive. Of the library was in the ground floor and upstairs, they had space. They had all kinds of programming that they did for the community. Tourist groups came there to visit it, and it was, it's a very historic community. A lot of people from the northwest fur trading company are buried in the cemetery there and so on. But after about 30 years, the municipality bought the property and gave it to this community group to run. But after about 3040, years, people were tired of doing it. So the problem there became that this group was was operating solely on their own. And I feel if the municipality had had stepped in and supported that, you know, said, Okay, we'll look after the maintenance of the property. We'll make sure that it's clean, you know. And I mean, they did pay the insurance or, you know, for it and so on. But if they they had stepped in, if it had been more of a partnership that when these people aged out, as it were, it might have made it might have continued, but, but that didn't happen. And, long story short, it's now demolished. I mean, we tried to save it, so I can see the problems when it's just the community group, because I think you really need that buy in from from the community. I mean, as a person who tried to save it, we are trying to get developers to come in and do it. But you need that, that mutual respect and support.

Andrew Siegwart  36:47  
I mean, that old saying, it takes a village, is so appropriate, isn't it, you need, you need to start with the community, but you need the those other partners to come to the table,

Kae Elgie  36:56  
yeah. And it was really, it was really sad to watch it, you know. And I see similar thing happening up in Mende Moya. People are trying to save the old school, and they're doing a really good job. They formed a not for profit organization. They fundraise ACO has helped them out with preservation work study and so on. But I can see the challenge will be because the municipality initially wanted to demolish that naked a parking lot for an arena they hope to build. So, you know, you almost need, like a third party that's going to be the mediator between these two original opponents.

Andrew Siegwart  37:31  
You're certainly highlighting how challenging it is. We

Catherine Naismith  37:34  
live in a condominium in Toronto that is built into the former George Brown College, which is it has a several, several wings to it that were built at different times. And it was saved when George Brown moved out into into new premises that the community had, had formed up and a not for profit, and they were, they were trying to develop for for community housing. And then, when the Harris government was elected in in in the early 90s, all of that funding and all of all of the support for for community organizations and and Co Op housing and not for profit always kind of shut all those programs were canceled, and the community continued to to push for to be and reached out to friends who were developers, and managed to bring bring developers in so that the property was developed as as rather than as a not for profit, but as as a condominium. And I think it's been quite a success. There's still, there's a very good relationship between the people who live in the building and the broader community. And the building's been saved, and it's, you know, and it's just a great place to live,

Andrew Siegwart  38:42  
which is great.

Lynne D. DiStefano  38:44  
I would just like to remind, remind us that when we talk about who is driving an adaptive reuse project, that it's, it can be community driven, but it can be problematic, but probably looking at a private public relationship or private public partnership is more sustainable, or developer driven, or institutional driven. And I think about University of Toronto and and it's the biggest owner. I think of buildings land in the city of Toronto. I think that's true. Kath, but correct me if I'm wrong, those buildings have undergone adaptive reuse for hundreds, well, 10s upon 10s of years. You have an example of an institution that is in control, that is making, from its point of view, good decisions in terms of what new uses are required.

Andrew Siegwart  39:40  
Yeah, they're also doing a nice job of integrating new structures into the

Lynne D. DiStefano  39:44  
mix. Yeah, the acknowledgement of the Aboriginal community is so well done. And then I could easily cross the road and think about Queen's Park, because ACOs concerned about buildings and spaces. Mm. Landscapes, yeah, and, and I think when we look at Queen's Park and we talk about adaptive reuse, we are now in a situation where that's being looked at in terms of introducing some new uses. And so when people talk about adaptive reuse, you really have to think more holistically about it, because it enters into so many facets of our life, our physical

Andrew Siegwart  40:26  
world. I guess in that context, you're talking a lot about the big land parcel that's there, as well as the buildings.

Lynne D. DiStefano  40:33  
No, just the land, the park, just the land. Yeah, something to stay tuned. There'll be opportunities for community input coming up very soon. Yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  40:42  
that's going to be an interesting one. No doubt that will that'll get a lot of attention, and maybe that's a good thing. I think when, when you have these sites that get this attention, it does allow for more discussion, right, right?

Lynne D. DiStefano  40:54  
Another example of adaptive reuse in the annex, which I think is very interesting because it's not a building, it's a small Parkette. It was a city park at it now has been adaptively reused as an Aboriginal garden. And oh, nice community. Community volunteers are working to make sure that the plantings are correct and the garden is well maintained.

Andrew Siegwart  41:20  
Again, adding to the to the social values, inspiring people and having the community literally participate in it.

Lynne D. DiStefano  41:29  
And one other thought, because I know that Ash our time will run out, I always like to remind people, not the people that that are in front of me, like who already know, but people listening that values are really ascribed by people. Values are not something that that are innate to whether it's a building or a park, but we as people give value to a building, and one of the important things is to encourage people to be very active in their communities and to be ahead of development and begin to say there's some places here that we need to protect. They have value to the community. They are part of what makes our community a unique, wonderful place to live, a place that makes us feel good. So I urge people to be very active and bringing places of local value and beyond local value to the attention of people that are in a position to make decisions regarding designation some form of protection.

Andrew Siegwart  42:31  
Yes, that's great advice. And I think what you're also saying to us all is Be conscious of these places and spaces that maybe we take for granted but that we care about, and start talking about it. And I think that is great advice.

Lynne D. DiStefano  42:44  
I have an example, and I shared this, I think before, when we had a pre meeting, that quite a well known local writer, I will not cite his name or her name, when I asked them for a place of value near where he or she lived. The person said, there is no heritage place. And I said, Well, where do you go with your family? Well, we go down to the local, you know, cafe. And I said, Well, isn't that a place that has some value for the community? Oh yeah, I guess it does. I think people have to to really think hard about what places are important to maintain communities. And communities need see three or what's called the third place, the coffee shop or the bookstore. It's, it's, it creates a form of cohesion for the community, and

Andrew Siegwart  43:39  
when done right, it attracts people to those communities because it feels authentic. I have two final questions, one which I know will be very difficult to answer, and then the second one, I think will be very easy to answer. The first one is and it just let you all jump in very quickly. There's clearly a lot of policy work in this space, but if you if you had to orient us toward a certain a certain approach to to better protect our our heritage, places and spaces. Where should we be looking from a policy perspective? The

Catherine Naismith  44:13  
thing that you know, after a long career in heritage and thinking about the various aspects of it, is the right to demolish the unless somebody has stood on their head and spit nickels to prove that there's cultural value or heritage value in a building, anyone has the right to tear down anything at any time and so and and heritage is no way to keep up with preserving all the places and interesting places and income that people want, want to continue to Enjoy. Heritage is just too slow a process. We need to change things. Nobody has to demolish this community. Discussion about value of things that are standing whether or not they have they were designed by somebody important, or they have value, they have embodied materials the public interest in preserving what we've already built. The. Comes Paramount over the private value of just clearing a site.

Lynne D. DiStefano  45:04  
And I jumped down saying grants, saying grants, because I think, I think if the province of Ontario would return to providing grants for the main maintenance and the renovation Conservation of Historic building stock, I think that would offer incentive for people to think more than once about whether a building is kept or not. It was a very years ago. There was a very successful program, and of course, right now, ACO is lobbying the government with its heritage helping housing campaign, and it's all about having government or convincing government to provide millions of dollars a year, $10 million a year, to Help people renovate, bring their housing units up to standard for people who need housing.

Andrew Siegwart  46:05  
It's a really good point, and I think it's, I'm glad to hear about the campaign that the that the ACO is is running, and will will include details on it in our show notes, so that listeners who are listening, if they want to learn more about it, can can find it in and learn more, because I think that is an important discussion. And you know, investment, we're talking about investment across the whole country right now in order to deal with what's happening globally in terms of our economy. And so I think, you know, investment in heritage is this is a really good time to be talking about that and ensuring that communities get those investment dollars to save then support their their community soul, so to speak. So I think that's a really good point. Yeah, I think it, I

Kae Elgie  46:46  
think it's a wonderful program. I know, during the pandemic, the National Trust reached a campaign, you know, for infrastructure, heritage infrastructure, too, and, and I think, I mean, we've talked about all the reasons, what what heritage brings to individuals and to communities and to visitors, to communities and all that stuff. There's there's that but, but I do think, I do think this, this grant specifically targeting housing and and re reusing the existing buildings, converting them, or whatever, you know, but is really important, and I do agree with with us, Catherine, that that demolition, this automatic right to demolish, just upsets me, especially from the climate environmental perspective. And, you know, and, and I've looked at cities that have carbon budgets and, and, and would love to require people to demonstrate that it will be better for the environment if they demolish this and, you know, replace it. But the facts are, it won't, you know, it takes so many years to recover the environmental and greenhouse gas emissions costs

Andrew Siegwart  47:55  
of doing that. Yeah, all the materials for sure. Yes.

Kae Elgie  47:59  
Replacing them far better, retrofit efficiently,

Andrew Siegwart  48:02  
and in some instances, it's it's financially advantageous to do so too. All right. Well, thank you. Great, great advice and great things to be thinking about. I know for a fact that the tourism community across Ontario is very aligned with a lot of what you're talking about, because we know that our authentic communities resonate with our local communities, employees as well as visitors. And of course, getting the balance right is always something that we're working on. And it's interesting. You talk a lot about being community led, and a lot of what tourism destinations are spending a lot of time talking about is engaging more with local communities so that the growth happens in a way that is sustainable. So we've got a lot a lot of things in common and are aligned with I want to close on a bit of a personal note with each of you, if you could maybe share with us one of those special buildings or sites personally means something to you, and that blends these sort of concepts we've been talking about today, arts, culture, tourism, community, you know, is there a building or a space that really jumps out at you, that you really love?

Kae Elgie  49:05  
I'm going to put this in it. Maybe a different thinking about heritage. But I went to rock point Provincial Park for the first time this weekend, and it's a wonderful space. And the heritage part are those fossils, you know, and, and the fact that they, the staff do fossil walks and so on. So, so it's really thinking about the heritage landscapes and how that can hold, be integrated and so on, you know. So, so that's, that's the one right now. It doesn't have buildings. And, you know, it wouldn't be one I would have thought of, but, but I think it really fits that, you know, the expanded notion of it, and thinking about the people who have lived there, we looked at tools that, you know, the church, that the indigenous people made their tools from, you know, so that's, that's heritage, real heritage. And it's a, it's a wonderful site to visit. Fantastic Beach, for sure. Sure, there you go. Great tip. Thank you. Oh, yeah. And plus, it's an internet dead zone, so if you want a break, you will get it whether you want it or not.

Andrew Siegwart  50:08  
Sign me up. How about you? Lynn,

Lynne D. DiStefano  50:11  
immediately I think about the Royal Conservatory of Canada. It's it's most wonderful example of an historic building maintaining its original use. There have been some changes of use, but by and large, fairly consistent with a wonderful addition of one of the best concert halls, if not in Canada, it could be almost in the world. It is just incredible. And being in the space both the original building, which fronts Bloor and the connecting link, which is beautifully sensitively handled, and the new concert hall, it's, it's, it just brings such joy as an experience. And related to that is philosophers walk, which is an example of a cultural landscape. It's recognized as a cultural landscape. And again, it's one of my favorite walks. And I just I feel good walking down. I feel time in it, because it starts on the north end with the Royal Ontario Museum, the original building, which most people don't realize. And then you you move into the U of T buildings. So just so many wonderful places, for sure. That's a great one, but, but I think this podcast is about adaptive reuse. They're rigid definitions, so adaptive reuse that the use is new. I prefer continuing use to be part of the definition. So adaptive reuse. Maybe the building was a resident to begin with, and it's been changed, and now it offers two, three or four apartments. So it's, in a way, continuing use, but it's a variation of the original use, and you have to be open and flexible these terms, you know, there's not one magic correct answer. They're different interpretations. So adaptive reuse, and that's why I include landscapes, and especially landscapes that are are made by man, because they do undergo change, maybe somewhat similar, but they've been adapted because new uses are introduced.

Andrew Siegwart  52:26  
Things are adapted for new uses. They're also adapted as our society evolves. So when you think about all of this work that many communities are doing on accessibility, it was something that wasn't a factor 2030, years ago, but it's becoming more a factor now, and so that's adapting in all sorts of ways. So I think that's it's just such an important point to raise. So thank you for that. I'll share with you one, one of my, one of my personal sites that I love. In Thunder Bay, where I grew up, Thunder Bay, Ontario, there was an old Eaton store in the north end of downtown, and it is this beautiful art deco storefront and building and Eaton closed many, many years ago. It was one of those, you know, of that era, big box retail, or large department store, I should say. And then it changed. It changed uses. It became a call center, became a bunch of different places. And then, fairly recently, a portion of that old building has been re envisioned as a maker's market and community driven space with a bookstore with uh, local food, local drink. They've built this beautiful, uh lounge. They've got beautiful cocktails. One of them is called the T Eaton, or the Timothy Eaton cocktail. And so they've really and they've bought, they put pictures in there, and they've stripped a lot of the building down to its original component, so you can still feel the old concrete, the old limestone facade. Anyway, it's a special place in this as you were mentioning, Lynn, you just feel good when you go in there. And that's an example of where you feel good. And an old department store is now a place where small businesses are getting their business dreams to come true. So I just love that it's, it's sort of, it's kind of been an adaptive reuse, that it's come back in a new form, but it's a good one. Well, I just want to thank you all for joining us today for a great conversation. And you know, it is really interesting because new development, Heritage Preservation, adaptive reuse, visitor economies, they all overlap, and I think it's an important dialog. And congrats to all the work that the architectural conservancy Ontario is doing. And we'll be really pleased to share more information with our listeners about how they can get involved, and perhaps how they if they are interested in looking at this type of work within their community, how they can reach out to your organization and get some tools and resources. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  54:46  
Thanks for listening to forward motion. This show is created by the tourism industry association of Ontario and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the sound off media company. You.