Destination Canada’s Playbook for Investment-Ready Tourism

Andrew Siegwart  00:00

This is

Mary Anne Ivison  00:01

Forward Motion discussions about the important topic shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew Siegwart.

Andrew Siegwart  00:10

Today, we're digging into a conversation that feels increasingly important for the future of tourism investment. We often talk about tourism through the lens of visitation, marketing, and visitor spending, but tourism is also economic development, its infrastructure, talent attraction, place building, and long-term competitiveness. So, what actually makes a destination investable? To explore that, I'm joined by Johanna Griggs, Executive Director of Tourism Development at Destination Canada. Destination Canada has been expanding its role well beyond traditional destination marketing, with a growing focus on investment attraction, product development, and sector competitiveness. In this conversation, we explore what makes tourism investment different, why Canada presents a compelling opportunity where Ontario has real advantages, and what tourism leaders should be thinking about if they want to become more investment ready. Whoa, hi Johanna. Thanks so much for joining us for the Forward Motion Podcast. It's really great to see you.

Johanna Griggs  01:10

Thank you very much for having me, Andrew. It's always a pleasure.

Andrew Siegwart  01:12

Before we dive into our conversation today, we always like to start with a bit of a highlight of our guest's career journey. What drew you into tourism and destination development.

Johanna Griggs  01:22

Well, I love to travel, and I worked in the hospitality industry in my youth. I lived in some very tourism-centric economies that were not necessarily developed to respect the culture and preserve the integrity of the society there, and I knew there had to be a better way. An opportunity arose to work with the Ontario Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport at the time, and I took advantage of that opportunity to get into investment and development of tourism.

Andrew Siegwart  01:50

That's amazing. Yes, and you and I go way back as well, working together in the South Georgian Bay Area, right? So we had some really great collaborative work together on attainable housing and economic development. Those were really fun times for me. I have to say, I felt like we were really tackling big issues that mattered in the community. What stands out for you about that time?

Johanna Griggs  02:12

I think the ability to have real impact at the local level, understanding firsthand from tourism operators what their challenges are, and being able to address them collectively across a region with multiple stakeholders and multiple partners was really impactful.

Andrew Siegwart  02:28

Yeah, it made a difference, right? It wasn't just one voice talking about the need for attainable housing. Suddenly, we had built a team. It was hard to set that aside when so many players saw the opportunity. Tell me, was there a moment where you saw that tourism was beyond just visitor attraction, and that it really could be an economic development tool.

Johanna Griggs  02:46

I'd say my first aha moment was when I had the opportunity to work on a grant program at the provincial level that funded recreational infrastructure. At first, I couldn't put together where recreational infrastructure and tourism came together, but as I dove into the role, I really became to understand that investments in recreation not just benefit the community, but also can drive economic impact by supporting visitation through sports and recreation, and that tourism has a much broader impact across the entire community and economy than just the visitors and heads and buzz,

Andrew Siegwart  03:21

yeah, it's a good point, and you're right, we bring an experiential value to communities and to locals that is a little different, it's employment opportunities, but it's experience too, and that is special, and I think more and more of us are looking at how we can make sure that that is done better and more effectively, Destination Canada today feels meaningfully different than I think how people traditionally think of a national destination marketing organization. You're focusing on investment and talent attraction, economic development, sector competitiveness, not just the marketing function. What changed? What led to that shift?

Johanna Griggs  03:56

I think strategically we understood that if we wanted to stay competitive with other destinations that are seeing increased investment in their tourism economies shifting in from destination marketing to destination management, we really needed to be strategic and thoughtful in how we evolve the organization. It's really important to retain and grow our market share compared to other international destinations in order to stay relevant and impactful in the work that we do, so we started to look beyond the demand side and consider the supply side and leverage the strength that we had within the organization, and we had really strong foundations and marketing and demand generation, but what we were seeing was an organic growth of the supply side,

Andrew Siegwart  04:41

COVID 19 really highlighted the need for more coordination across the country, and that's when the broader destination development mandate came to DC, really to be thoughtful and strategic in how we're influencing and informing the growth of tourism supply intentionally and regeneratively, I. Think it was the right change at the right time, and it also coincides with that same kind of thinking and that mindset shift at the local level too. So many different destination marketing organizations are also looking at that focus. Are you hearing more of that coming from the destinations that you work with?

Johanna Griggs  05:18

Certainly, we're seeing more resources allocated towards destination development, destination stewardship, where she's seeing the shift from DMO to DMMO, where they're including management and stewardship of a destination as part of the mandate. So we are seeing growth in that side of the tourism sector.

Andrew Siegwart  05:37

Yeah, did it take a bit of time for the stakeholders in Destination Canada to get it was there a sense that, oh, let's just keep the marketing rolling and the rest will follow, or did the industry intuitively understand that the supply side was just as important as the demand side?

Johanna Griggs  05:52

I think with the introduction of every new line of business, there's growing pains and the need to work with our stakeholders and understand really where their needs are, and how we can address gaps within the ecosystem. So, it was really a collaborative approach across the industry that really informed the development of our strategic plan as it relates to destination development.

Andrew Siegwart  06:12

Yeah, for sure, that's good to hear. I know when I've spoken to a number of destination marketing organizations, their communities, you know, it's the similar kind of mindset. It takes a bit of time to adjust. I think the supply side work is so important to their businesses that local industry gets it pretty quickly, and and they need help in all those spaces, whether it's workforce or investment attraction. So, I think it creates more holistic services and support. It's kind of a movement toward an economic development mindset in tourism, wouldn't you say?

Johanna Griggs  06:44

Absolutely, and I think we're seeing more alignment between economic development and tourism, and those two areas working closer together. The Economic Development Association of Canada recently undertook a survey looking at the state of the profession, and one of the main questions was, how many communities have tourism as part of their broader economic sector focus, and I was surprised by the number of municipalities that came back and said tourism is a sector of choice for us. We don't see that happening as much at the provincial and national level, but at the community level, they're really understanding the value of tourism.

Andrew Siegwart  07:20

So, yes, we form similar relationships, like the Economic Developers Council of Ontario, and, as well, the Ontario Business Improvement Association, as well. This fusion of economic development and tourism in Ontario, a lot of it has been driven by the municipal accommodation tax and the growing partnerships between industries and municipalities, and so I find it fascinating to see the EC dev mindset and skillset and culture influencing what we do in tourism. I see it as a really positive thing. It's a new change in evolution, right on the investment attraction side. This is where we're going to spend a fair bit of our conversation today. When speaking of investment attraction, tourism gets lumped in with every other sector, and all the other discussions that happen at a local or even a national level. If tourism is referenced at all as a priority among those investment attraction goals, but in reality, tourism behaves very differently than many other sectors. So, I'm wondering if you could maybe share with us what makes tourism investment attraction different from traditional economic development sectors like manufacturing logistics or the resource sector,

Johanna Griggs  08:26

so I think with tourism it's really a place-based approach for an industrial warehouse logistics. It doesn't matter what the natural environment looks like, as long as there's zone shovel ready and service land, you're good to go. Workforce is there, transportation networks with tourism. There's a lot more consideration in regards to how does it fit within the community fabric. I'd also say with tourism development, it's more complex than industrial development from a land use perspective. You know, industrial land is industrial land where most tourism projects need site-specific zoning and official plan amendments, so it does create more risk in it, and it does make it a little bit more complicated. I'd also say that, you know, there's different taxation policies for tourism than other asset classes, like residential office, that can make it a little bit more challenging to access capital for investment, whereas for traditional industrial manufacturing life sciences, those types of sectors, there's a lot more capital flowing through, but I would say that tourism is resilient. It is a sector that is high growth, high returns, and recovers quickly, which really reduces the risk of exposure for a lot of investors,

Andrew Siegwart  09:43

yeah, for sure, and I think we are seeing that in the last year or so when we face these big economic shocks like the trade dynamic, and I know we're going to get to it a little later, but tourism has shown how through that type of a disruption economically we can hold our own and I. Think the destination Canada stat is the second largest international service export. Right,

Johanna Griggs  10:05

that's correct. Yeah, and you know we've been digging into the Prime Minister's goal of diversifying our non-US exports, and we think that tourism can be nine or 10% of the solution there. There's a lot of opportunity within tourism, and with the right conditions, it can really exponentially improve our economy.

Andrew Siegwart  10:25

You know, as you were talking about the different zoning contexts, it suddenly hit me the complexity. So, you have really, you have tourism operations in every type of land use, even in residential zoned areas, you have like sharing economy players, so it really is quite diverse, right. So, you need to have a lot of knowledge. I've often heard that economic developers will say that tourism can be a bit more challenging to attract investment because there's the fragmentation across multiple markets, different types of assets, the different sizes and scales of operators. Do you see that as a risk, or could it also be a benefit in terms of the that resilience that we have?

Johanna Griggs  11:04

I think a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. I think fragmentation is an issue, regardless of sector. Had the opportunity to support multiple sectors outside of tourism, and you know, lack of alignment with policy and regulation, fragmentation of land use approvals on the local, regional, provincial, and national levels. They're sector agnostic. Tourism is made up of mostly small and medium-sized enterprises, which offers a different market for investors. It creates more opportunities for small scale investment, opportunities to scale investment and scale product offerings, so in some cases it is harder to attract investment because it is unique, but those that invest in tourism and really know it continue to invest, so we're seeing a lot of strength there.

Andrew Siegwart  11:53

Yeah, for sure. One of the things that I've been talking a lot about, there's a unique factor in tourism, particularly in Ontario, but I think you could share a little more about how this functions in other provinces and territories, but my position is that there are so many support mechanisms in tourism that actually help mitigate risk. So, in Ontario, we have the regional tourism strategy, where there are regional tourism organizations across the province that play a role in convening and supporting and helping attract and deal with challenges. You have destination marketing organizations that help market and promote the destinations. Then you have your provincial marketing organizations, Destination Canada, and we have sector organizations that have, you know, unique skill set in and talent that they can bring to the table, so to me that sets up an ecosystem that can support the sector and help mitigate risk. When we're looking to attract investment, is that a part of the sales pitch, so to speak, when looking at highlighting investment across Canada and tourism?

Johanna Griggs  12:57

I certainly think that the Team Canada approach provides additional reassurances for investors, and I haven't come across a sector that has as much support and coordination. You named a whole bunch of different organizations and levels of government that support an investor to be successful in achieving the returns they're looking for on that investment, you don't see that in other sectors nearly as strongly or as prevalent as you do in tourism.

Andrew Siegwart  13:29

I think you hit the nail on the head on that one right up front by saying that because tourism is place-based, there are so many place-based support organizations, it's replicated across the whole country, so that's the real sweet spot from your work with investors and in the investment community. What are you hearing that investors, or those who are thinking about tourism, what are their priorities right now in this economy?

Johanna Griggs  13:50

With the growth that we're seeing in the tourism sector across Canada, we're hearing that investors are more and more interested in hospitality-related asset classes.

Andrew Siegwart  14:01

Okay,

Johanna Griggs  14:02

I recently was able to attend the Canadian Hospitality Investment Forum, and all of the outlooks were very positive. There's a lot of demand for reinvestment in existing assets to refurbish them, as well as the acquisition of new assets and the development of new new hotels and accommodations. We're seeing really strong occupancy rates, revenue growth, as well as increase in average daily rates, and that even accounts for the introduction of new supply. So it really is real growth, and investors are seeing the benefit and the upside to that, and they're really excited about it. I think one of the challenges that we do here still is access to capital, and so that's something that we need to work to address in the, in the longer term,

Andrew Siegwart  14:48

having that that partnership ability when the demand is there is really important. Would you say that tourism investment is more about confidence in the destination ecosystem? System, a specific project or both, like, do they all work together to support that investability?

Johanna Griggs  15:06

I think it really depends on the investor and what kind of investment they're looking at. Quite often we see investors interested in a specific community, or because they have an attachment to it, or an affinity to it. Some investors are just looking at the numbers, so if the performer works and the opportunity is there, they're happy to seize that opportunity. I would also say, given that tourism is such a locally grown industry, and we have so many SMEs, a lot of it is just based on where entrepreneurs are, where there's a strong entrepreneurial ecosystem, and support for growth of those small and medium enterprises.

Andrew Siegwart  15:44

Yeah, for those communities who maybe are thinking about becoming more investment ready, what advice would you have on the kind of ingredients that a tourism economy might need to shift from being visitor ready to investment ready?

Johanna Griggs  15:59

I think it's really important to have the right foundations in place, understand your market and what opportunities exist within it. Develop a narrative around why people should be investing. What's your value proposition? And then I also think from the operational side, really understanding what land is available. Do we have the infrastructure in place to support investment, like workforce transportation, and you know, have do we have land that has, as of right, policies in place that are shovel ready for developers. It's also really important to make sure that you have a skilled workforce to support investment. Not long ago, that was the first question from site selectors is, what does the workforce look like? It was a big barrier to growth. And then I think also making sure that you understand the ecosystem, that you have the right partners at the table. Do you have economic development, investment, tourism, planning, your workforce board? You need to bring all those people together in order to support an investment, and I also think the data is a key element. Canadian Tourism Data Collective is a great place to start. If you're looking for data on your community, you can zoom in to your local level and see information for over 5000 communities across the country, including where your assets are clustered, which might help with some of that land use planning, so really making sure that you have those strong foundations before you go out and flex your marketing muscles to investors,

Andrew Siegwart  17:29

and that data collective product, and is so important, and is so well done. It's such a great tool that Destination Canada has really invested in, and it delivers. I'm wondering, How important is it in our industry for communities in thinking about being investor ready to manage the relationships with their local community? You know, you see a lot of opposition to projects, or the sort of, you know, what is often referred to as NIMBY, but I think sometimes maybe can also be referred to as just not being consulted. You know, how important is that in being investor ready today? Do you think

Johanna Griggs  18:04

I think public support for investment is always crucial. You need to have that political will to support the investment, and the community drives that political will. At Destination Canada, we encourage a regenerative approach to tourism development, making sure that tourism is benefiting the communities that it's in, environmentally, economically, and socially. So, engaging your community and understanding the strengths of the community as you build your tourism industry is paramount.

Andrew Siegwart  18:32

Yeah, for sure. For sure, it's something that local residents of every community, they want to see their community regenerate, they want to see it evolve, become better, become more equitable, and I think it's fun. In tourism, we actually can have - we have an opportunity to help make that happen. So it's like low hanging fruit if you don't engage in that mindset when you're starting to bring an investment to a market, for sure. Shifting gears a bit, Destination Canada is really taking a lead in positioning Canada's tourism sector as an investment opportunity for international investment, and really putting Canada on the map. So, thinking about Canada overall, what do you think is making Canada compelling in that regard right now?

Johanna Griggs  19:16

Canada's tourism sector is really entering its next phase of growth with strong demand already established, the opportunity really lies in expanding our supply to unlock up to $178 billion in annual spending by 2030 We need to stay competitive with our global peers, and we offer a lot to investors. We have a very competitive economy. We have a very stable operating environment, banking environment, strong talent pipeline, and we're also a globally trusted brand. We've been ranked number one by multiple market research firms, including Rep Core Nations, and recently number three on the Amhalt Nation brand index. This really instilled. A lot of confidence for investors, not just for visitors.

Andrew Siegwart  20:04

That's really impressive.

Johanna Griggs  20:05

Absolutely, we're having a bit of a moment.

Andrew Siegwart  20:08

Yeah, we are.

Johanna Griggs  20:09

I think one of the other things that really provides a strong investment environment is our global connectivity and strong air access.

Andrew Siegwart  20:18

I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that is a good example of the infrastructure needed. How important it is. I was, I was attending an event hosted by the Empire Club of Canada, talking about the expansion of Pearson Airport, and once you learn how big those projects are and how critical they are to connecting us to the world, you realize how what an economic juggernaut that is, and how that might matter, not only for visitors, but also for our resource sector, in terms of shipping and that whole side of things. So, would you say that in the last couple of years, the current global, let's call it disruption in the sort of trade space has that helped Canada to stand out even more.

Johanna Griggs  21:06

I think over the past year or two, Canada has really taken a center stage. Our reputation and our brand strength has really resonated with people internationally. Destination Canada is active in nine different markets globally, and we have staff there that support those investments, and we're seeing a lot of interest and growth within our key markets.

Andrew Siegwart  21:30

Oh, that's good to know. So that natural outreach in those markets, you're hearing that feedback, which is nice. I think what we've always done and been is resonating, but also we're rising to the moment, politically on the global stage, and I think that's helping too. Tell me, are there misconceptions you think international investors still have about Canada that maybe we need to be thinking about to overcome?

Johanna Griggs  21:52

Certainly, you know, I think there's some misconceptions around the size of our market compared to other major destinations, but Canada really competes as a high value tourism market that combines diversified demand, really strong domestic travel, and we're seeing continued growth there, as well as high visitor spending that really supports that stable tourism asset performance,

Andrew Siegwart  22:15

for sure, for sure. Do you think that things like our short seasons, or sort of the winter versus summer, any of that play into the perceptions of Canada, or are those strengths our seasonality?

Johanna Griggs  22:27

No, I think it depends on what product you're looking at, but the tourism ecosystem is increasingly becoming more year round, we're diversifying demand through targeting different segments, and we have other sub sectors within the industry, like business events that actively help stabilize tourism across the year, typically seeing growth and visitation in those shoulder seasons. So, there's a lot of efforts being made to address seasonality and make tourism a more year-round opportunity for investors,

Andrew Siegwart  23:01

yeah, not just visitors, right, for investors too. They need to see that, that's part of being investor ready, isn't it? That product development story. One of the things that we're seeing that's meeting the moment is Canada's investment across the country on various projects. There's some amazing national projects that are percolating. I think some would look at what's happening and see it as being maybe not as focused on the service economy, certainly on things like housing and transportation, energy, critical minerals, etc. Although they have a relationship to tourism, so they're all good, but I'm just wondering if you have any advice or if you're thinking about how tourism can seize this moment to help at the national level to bring national projects. What does tourism have that we can bring to the table in this moment?

Johanna Griggs  23:49

Tourism is really a nation-building sector. It brings together community pride and showcases it to the international audience. Tourism is often that first handshake for business. When we have people investing in other sectors and diversifying trade, they're often here as visitors first. So, having a good first impression is really important. Many of the challenges tourism faces are sector agnostic. You named a few: housing, workforce, transit, immigration. They impact tourism, but also so many other sectors, so we've really been trying to establish some strategic partnerships and leverage the collective will to affect change.

Andrew Siegwart  24:33

Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly the right approach. One of the things recently we were speaking with Minister Valdez, and we were talking about how resource investment tends to happen in tandem with tourism, and so when you're building mines or you're investing in transportation hubs, often hospitality and tourism are a required growth engine. Alongside of that, so one of the things that I'm looking forward to is thinking about how we can participate alongside of some of those projects and bring the visitor economy along the way, you know, help with those business events, help feed everyone that's working on these big projects, etc. So I think there's a lot that we can be creative with as Canada continues on its Canada Strong journey, so to speak. Let's talk a little bit about the Ontario context. If you're comfortable sharing some of your insights, if we play some of that kind of investment logic that you're thinking about at the national level, where do you think Ontario's strongest competitive advantages sit?

Johanna Griggs  25:37

Ontario has really strong gateway access, both from land arrivals as well as air arrivals, and that's a huge strength for bringing in increased foreign investment and new visitors. There's also a strong concentration of the domestic market in Ontario, and as we're seeing growth in domestic visitation, there's strength that lies there as well. Ontario is also home to a number of iconic destinations, major urban centers, but also beautiful nature. There's a lot of cultural diversity that makes Ontario a strong and appealing destination, as well as a strong business environment. So, there's a lot of strengths that Ontario has to put forward.

Andrew Siegwart  26:18

Yeah, a broader diversified economy leads to diversified investment in so many different ways. What do you think might be holding us back, or where should we be thinking about elevating and enhancing that already strong position?

Johanna Griggs  26:34

I think prioritization of tourism is a big opportunity, making sure that we have a seat at the right tables, and that we're working across various disciplines, so across ministries, across levels of government to strengthen the way that tourism can contribute to the broader economy. Tayo is doing great work in this area. I'd love to see dedicated tourism investment services at every level of government, as well as the opportunity to really understand what kind of incentives that investors need that are tourism specific, as well as regulatory updates.

Andrew Siegwart  27:16

Yeah, on those fronts, either investment incentives or regulatory updates. What do you think? What are the moves there that can really unlock the best potential? Like, what specific types of programs have you seen that work, or you think are worth championing?

Johanna Griggs  27:33

There's a number of different levers available to pencil developable, and I'll use hotel as an example, construction costs continue to rise. The cost of land is not cheap, you know. And anything that a municipality can do to really support a developer in making the numbers work is really beneficial to landing that investment, you know. There's development charge reductions, there's other types of tax deferral incentives that could be offered. There's a whole suite available, so I think understanding what those levers are and how a local community can take action to really support an investor and make the investment feasible.

Andrew Siegwart  28:24

The challenge with that, of course, is that all of those policies are at a hyper local level, so part of, you know, the decision making happens community by community, and so there's not a one like a magic wand policy solution at a provincial or national level, so I think it takes us back to your recommendations earlier. The more you know about the market and the more connected you are to the local community, I would imagine the better success you'll have at advocating for development charge reductions, or some tax deferrals, or the right community improvement program that can stimulate product development and things like that. Are there any markets Canada-wide or even internationally where you've seen a community really get that formula right?

Johanna Griggs  29:12

I think a good example, and one we've recently profiled in a case study at Destination Canada, is what took place in Vancouver. So they brought together a task force that included the hotel association, the local DMO, as well as representatives from the planning department with the City of Vancouver, and a number of other stakeholders, and they really looked at what the barriers were to hotel investment in Vancouver. They've identified a deficit of hotel rooms and that they'll be short somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 rooms in the not too distant future within the greater Vancouver region and it really brought together key players to identify land use policies and different levers that were barriers to. Hotel development, and they're starting to see quite a bit of interest as a result of that work, and updating some land use policies that are really catalyzing investment in the hotel sector in Vancouver.

Andrew Siegwart  30:11

That's good. So, again, bringing the right team together, getting the data, and really working as a team at the end of the day. Well, so while, well, at the local level, there's, there's different things that we can try to put in place to help seed investment, but of course, at Destination Canada, you're also operationalizing tourism investment and attraction, so can you just maybe highlight some of the key moves that Destination Canada has been driving with some funding and other measures to help drive this.

Johanna Griggs  30:45

Absolutely, there wasn't really a national narrative around why people should be investing in tourism in Canada. So we've approached that through the development of a value proposition and a tourism sector profile and the launching of an investor-facing website that really curates data and information for investors, profiles investment opportunities, as well as integrates a funding and incentive finder for people looking to invest in Canada. To complement that, we're also trying to elevate Canada's presence on the global stage, so we're attending trade shows like Mipp, which is the largest real estate investment show in the world. There's 5000 investors, 20,000 participants from 90 plus countries. Wow, there's about 4 trillion euros of assets under management represented at this conference. So it's a really great place to show up as Team Canada. We were able to go in March with representation from seven different destinations and communities, as well as bringing some economic development aligned organizations, private sector, and indigenous groups with us, and it was a resounding success. We're also building capacity across the sector, we're in the process of developing some investment attraction training that will be delivered and made available to the whole sector, so that they better understand what fundamentals are needed to be in place in order to support investment, but also what partnerships should they be exploring, and what kind of things do they need to solidify before, before they're doing investment outreach. We've also helped to develop seven new corridors across the country, so really bringing together community-led tourism strategies that include investment plans, identify investment opportunities, and we're bringing those to investors as well, and supporting the implementation of those, and then this past year we had the opportunity to pilot the tourism sprint program, which was really focused at unlocking private and public sector investment and catalyzing projects, so finding opportunities that are maybe just needed a little bit of incentive to move forward, or a little bit of support to move forward, and supporting that we've had final reports from at least five of those projects already, and our nominal investment of under 200,000 is expected to generate about $30 million of investment.

Andrew Siegwart  33:17

Wow, that's incredible! Congratulations, that's amazing work. Yeah, thank

Johanna Griggs  33:22

you. And

Andrew Siegwart  33:23

I can't, I can't help but when you mentioned the MIPAM experience, I mean that is a perfect example of destination marketing organizations leveraging what they do really well, which is get teams to go internationally to sell the product, but now instead of selling visitation, you're selling investment, and you're, you've got DMOS and other partners going with you. I would imagine that's only going to grow. It's a perfect example of how we're shifting what we do to drive tourism, isn't

Johanna Griggs  33:51

it? Absolutely. And that was really our first opportunity to show up as Team Canada, and that global stage, and there was a lot of interest from partners to be there more than we had anticipated, so we're really thankful that our partners were able to join us on that journey, and we're looking forward to growing attendance at the event next year, as well as other investment folks.

Andrew Siegwart  34:12

Amazing. Well, I can tell you, I've had conversations with a couple of the markets who attended, and they came back super impressed, and also really excited and motivated, and we can never underestimate the catalyzing effect of that work, right? Just being in the ecosystem, speaking to investors, connecting to global markets, it helps boost everything back home. Also, the International Convention and Attraction Fund is also an investment attraction vehicle. I know many of the of our listeners will be familiar with it, but maybe can you just talk a little bit about the genesis of that program, and attracting international events is actually a pathway to investment.

Johanna Griggs  34:51

Absolutely, so we're very strategic in how we've approached our business event strategy through business events. Not only are you bringing more visitors, typically during seasons that are a little bit slower from the leisure travel market, but you're also bringing global decision makers, investors, researchers, and industry leaders into Canada and the communities that they're visiting. Business events can strengthen local economies, deepen our sector clusters, and increase investment potential. It also offers an opportunity to align between local priorities, national and global opportunities. So our investment in business events, yes, is to generate more visitation, but we've aligned with the sectors that Invest in Canada focuses on so that it catalyzes investment beyond tourism and into other sectors of the economy.

Andrew Siegwart  35:47

Amazing, it's so great. And congratulations to the whole team for securing that additional round of $15 million of funding. That's gonna, it's really going to make a difference. Okay, well, we've covered a lot of ground, but I'm going to ask the question that I know a lot of our businesses always are curious about, and that is when we're doing this investment attraction work and we're planting these seeds, we want to measure our progress and sort of how we're getting there. So, for any market that is starting to explore investment attraction, what are the types of ways are markets measuring their success. I mean, I would imagine there are so many steps along the way before you know something gets built, but are there key metrics that markets should be highlighting or thinking about as they start this work to know that they're going in the right direction.

Johanna Griggs  36:36

Certainly, I mean, the end goal really is to have new bookable experiences and products, so having a good understanding of your baseline, I think, is really important. So, understanding your asset mix right now, and business counts, employment numbers, and having that understanding of fundamentals before understanding how it's growing. We're seeing destinations track their lead generation, as well as the performance of investment targeted campaigns, also assessing pipeline growth. So, what projects are coming to market? Also, the number of investment-ready opportunities. So, it's one thing to track the amount of investment coming in, but also understand how many opportunities have been identified that are investment ready, and then I think also really important is how many strategic partnerships have you developed, or how are they growing? How are you maintaining them? There's a number of different metrics, and I think each community and each player needs to choose the metrics that are right for them and attributable to them, but you know those are just some places you could get started.

Andrew Siegwart  37:45

No, I think that's that's a really great advice. Thank you for that. Are there risks when destination organizations or communities start to spend a bit more time in the investment attraction space versus marketing? Are there risks that that organizations should be aware of as they get going on this journey.

Johanna Griggs  38:06

Yes, I mean, there's certain risks inherent in developing new lines of business as an organization, whether a DMO or small business or a large business. Really, I think it's really important to recognize that there's a certain skill set that's needed to support investment and bringing on the right capacity is very important, making sure you have the right people and the right resources to execute, you know, there's always that risk of, you know, stretching your resources a little too thin, so being really thoughtful in how you're approaching investment attraction and destination development, as well as understanding the broader ecosystem around investment and development, so you're not duplicating, and that you're aligning with messaging from your partners across the jurisdiction and leveraging the work that they're doing, you're certainly not alone in investment attraction as a DMO. There's economic development typically at the local, regional, and provincial level trying to achieve similar outcomes. So, understanding those organizations and who's active in that space and working with them, I think is really important and can address some of those risks.

Andrew Siegwart  39:22

Yeah, I think that's really sage advice. And sometimes it's, you can move into the investment attraction space without having to commit to being the leader. You can just bring your tourism expertise to the table, right? And I think that's something at a community-based level, there may be players already driving investment attraction, so you can just bring your knowledge and experience from the tourism sector, and that that can be a great place to start. Right.

Johanna Griggs  39:48

Absolutely, a lot of DMOs have a wealth of data.

Andrew Siegwart  39:51

Yeah,

Johanna Griggs  39:51

well, I think that's really important to share with partners to help them understand where the market potential is, and to share with investors, so that they can make informed. Decisions about where they want to put their money, and I think also a lot of DMOS overlook the value of understanding the consumer, and how sharing that information and knowledge with your economic development counterparts, as well as small business, can help define what kind of products are being developed and brought to market to meet that visitor interests and demand you're already generating.

Andrew Siegwart  40:23

Yeah, that's a vet, that's a value add that at a municipal level, municipal economic development agencies might not have as much concrete data about consumer experiences and purchasing behaviors and who and where they are. So, yeah, you're right, that is a really good point. That is, that is a leverageable information. Tell me, if you could look ahead five years from now, how different do you think destination marketing organizations will be?

Johanna Griggs  40:50

I think that every organization and sector needs to grow and pivot as the ecosystem evolves. I think we'll see more focus on being destination stewards and making sure that there's that balance between visitation and residents and that everything is being developed sustainably and regeneratively. I think that there's going to be continued pressure on budgets, where there's a do more with less mentality. There are a couple of tools, specifically in Ontario, with the accommodation tax, that can help alleviate some of that, but I think that there's high expectations on what kind of results are going to be driven by that additional investment. So, DMOs are going to have to continue to evolve with the market and really understand their strengths and where they can really make a difference.

Andrew Siegwart  41:49

Yeah, for sure. And I think a big part of that is also being as connected as possible to the operators in your community. Yeah,

Johanna Griggs  41:58

absolutely.

Andrew Siegwart  41:59

You have a lot of experience with that, don't you like really working at the grassroots level? Do you have any advice for folks on how to do that authentically?

Johanna Griggs  42:09

I think being in the community and being visible, participating in local events and direct outreach, so if you're working in a community and you want to understand what some of the challenges are for tourism businesses or operators in your area. Call them, offer them a coffee, have a chat, understand what the challenges are. You can do it under a bigger forum or a more formal process, of course. That I think developing that relationship provides a little bit more candor in the responses that you'll receive,

Andrew Siegwart  42:39

for sure. I have so many members of Tayo that I engage with one on one, because I know they're going to be completely honest with me and direct, and you need that right, you need that direct feedback always, even if it's hard to hear. So, in order to navigate those changes and to sort of be prepared to take all that work head on, I've been asking a lot of people this question lately, and I'm curious, for your perspective, what's the mindset shift you would recommend all of us in tourism make to really seize the opportunity that's in front of us on the investment side, but also on the ascendant Canadian reputation globally? What's the mindset shift we need to be bringing to ourselves and our own operations,

Johanna Griggs  43:22

I think that tourism isn't just an economic driver. While it's really important to make sure that everyone recognizes the weight that it brings to the economy, but also that it really can contribute positively to the wealth and well-being of communities from coast to coast to coast, there's an opportunity to prioritize tourism as a sector of choice. It supports one in 10 jobs across the country. It's active in 5000 communities across the country, and it's a high growth, high return opportunity. It offers stability and strong economic impact, even during uncertain times, and we spoke a little bit about that. You know, it recovers quickly, and it also is a powerful contributor to our broader economic goals. It can support that soft diplomacy, it can help us diversify our exports, and offers that first handshake, not just to business, but at the local level to entrepreneurs and to residents as well,

Andrew Siegwart  44:23

yeah, yeah. What you're saying is we need to more fully embrace the breadth that we bring to the table, and maybe we need a bit more tourism pride to sort of really remind everyone of that as we go forward, and it's the numbers and the experience, it's good advice, because sometimes we just, you know, we're focused on the here and now, or we're focused on our immediate goals, or we tend to talk about the numbers, but really the impact is so much broader, and every operator in every community is a part of that, and so I think that's really great advice, Johanna. I really do. Well, I want to thank you so much for sharing. Sharing all of the insights that you bring to the table, and congratulations on the meaningful work that Destination Canada is driving, and that you are leading on behalf of the team in the investment attraction and tourism development space. It is phenomenal work, and you know, on a personal level, I just want to share with you, in front of our audience and members, you know, you and I, we go way back. We've worked together for many, many years, and in so many times along the journey, you have been there to provide the right advice, the right knowledge, and you've never steered me wrong, and you've always helped, and you've always made any project we've worked on that much better. And I don't know that I've ever formally thanked you as much as I should, but really I have appreciated so much the work that you bring to the table on behalf of Ontario. I've seen it firsthand in the markets we've worked in, and I really appreciate everything that you do. And thanks so much.

Mary Anne Ivison  45:54

Well, thank you very much for the kind words, and please know the feelings mutual. Thanks for listening to Forward Motion. This show is created by the Tourism Industry Association of Ontario and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the Sound Off Media Company,